Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - The John Farrell Era Began Monday at 3

Time for a new thread, hey? Let's mix it up a little with a Question of the Day spun from a comment posted in the original "at 3" thread by long-time and valued Bauxite 92-93:

" ... the Jays would look mighty impressive if they could pull off a way to acquire [Zack Greinke] without giving up Snider, Drabek, Marcum, Cecil, Romero, or Morrow.

That list of six names includes no less than (the magic number of) five starting pitchers. So think this through and answer as if we're heading into the 2014 season:

Drabek, Marcum, Cecil, Romero, Morrow

Is this your '14 Jay rotation?
If so, in what order are they slotted into, 1-5?
If not, who's not in the rotational plans any more, and who has stepped up to fill (or take) that spot?

Posted by Mick Doherty on Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 02:55 PM EDT.

The John Farrell Era Began Monday at 3 | 95 comments | Create New Account

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Matthew E - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#224673) #

That's probably my rotation, assuming everyone's healthy and spring training doesn't convince us of anything we don't think we know now. I'm certainly willing to entertain the possibility that Drabek's not quite ready yet, in which case I give it to Rzepczynski. Guys like Richmond and Hill haven't done anything to warrant losing their jobs, but this is a tough rotation to crack.

I don't really care what order the five of them are in. Others do, though, and many people look at the guy who started the first game of the year and assume that he's the ace of the staff for the rest of the year, whether he is or not. I suspect that Morrow is going to turn out to be the best of them, but there's no point in putting that kind of pressure on him; I'll let Marcum play that role. After that we can string it out Romero, Morrow, Cecil, Drabek.

Matthew E - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#224674) #

Oh, wait; you said 2014. Oops.

Impossible to predict, of course, but just based on estimated talent I could see a rotation of, oh...

Morrow, Cecil, Stewart, McGuire, Francisco Liriano (or some other guy who's currently pitching for some other team). That's in rough order, but I do see Morrow as the leader of the pack.

ayjackson - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#224675) #

I don't think that will be our 2014 rotation.

Henderson Alvarez or Deck McGuire or somebody else will probably force at least one pitcher out. My 2014 rotation:

Romero, Drabek, Morrow, Alvarez, McGuire

Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:29 PM EDT (#224676) #

Is this your '14 Jay rotation?

Has any team, in all of recorded history, used the same five starters for five straight seasons? (He says, honestly wondering if it's ever happened.) I'll be fairly surprised if three of those guys are in the 2014 rotation.

Kieran - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#224677) #

The post asked about the 2014 rotation. I can say with almost certainty, that as fans, our ability to predict a starting rotation four years into the future is completely uncertain.

Putting aside contract status, there are issues of performance, injuries, trades (both new acquisitions and departures), free agent signings, etc.

I'd like to say that Drabek and perhaps Zach Stewart are fixtures in the rotation, and that Romero is still here and effective. But I wouldn't bet more than a dollar on it.

Just think, rewind four years. I imagine most of us would have assumed the 2010 rotation would have included Halladay, McGowan, Litsch, Purcey and Zach Jackson, if he hadn't already been traded.

In reality, not one of those guys was a regular starter.

Pistol - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#224678) #

In 2006 your rotation (10 or more starts) looked like this:
1.    Halladay
2.    Burnett
3.    Lilly (a free agent after 06)
4.    Chacin
5.    Janssen
6.    Marcum
7.    Towers

Lilly was a free agent after 2006 and left for the Cubs. Janssen went to the pen the following year, and Chacin and Towers had their career years in 2005 and I don�t think any one really thought they�d continue that into 2010. That leaves you with Halladay, Burnett, and Marcum.

Your top pitching prospects at the time, according to the Box list, looked like this:
1.    R Romero
2.    D Romero
3.    Rosario
4.    Purcey
5.    Cheng
6.    Litsch

Romero and Purcey were the two 1st round picks, so they�d probably be the top choices to be in the rotation in 2010, but I�m sure others thought that Cheng and Litsch both had chances over one or both (as neither were overwhelming at that point).

So if you were to guess a top 5 for 2010 in 2006 it�d probably be:
1.    Halladay
2.    Burnett
3.    Marcum
4.    Romero
5.    Purcey

And it actually turned out to be (10 or more starts):
1.    Marcum
2.    Romero
3.    Cecil (not in organization in 2006)
4.    Morrow (not in organization in 2006)
5.    Rzepczynski (not in organization in 2006)

2 out 5, and 3 weren't even reasonable guesses (unless you predicted the Jays taking Cecil at #38 in 2007 like someone may have!)

So knowing that, for 2014 I'll go with:

R Romero
Morrow
Drabek
D McGwire
A Sanchez

And wouldn't be surprised if I got 2 or less correct.

Dewey - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#224679) #

I half suspect Mick of merely baiting me (and any other non-speculator-fantasizing types here.) But 2014!? Ye gods, none of us can predict what�s going to be next week, let alone four years hence. This is utterly detached from reality. (Not terribly unlike the rest of the world these days though, I suppose. And WillRain once went on one of his interminable roster-lists-of-the -future that extended to 2015!) Craziness. Pointless crazyness.

Pistol - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#224680) #

And as someone pointed out, McGowan would have been one of those five starters 4 years ago... bump Purcey from that 2006/2010 list.

Matthew E - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#224681) #

Now, what would be the rotation that I would most want to happen? That I think would be the most satisfying to watch win a World Series? How about this one:

Brandon Morrow
Roy Halladay
Zach Stewart
Dustin McGowan
Adam Loewen

Mike Green - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#224682) #

I am almost sure that the answer to that one is no. The Braves had Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery for 4 years. The Giants of the late 60s had Marichal, Perry, Sadecki, Bolin and McCormick for 3 years and the first 4 for 4 years. Even the great Orioles and A's rotations of the 70s had turnover.

The Jay rotation of 2014 might be Halladay, Drabek, Wojciechowski, Rzepczynski and Syndergaard. "It should be a great series, Jerry, with Wojciechowski, Rzepcznski and Syndergaard on the mound for the Jays". Alan will earn his salary.

Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#224683) #

I was wondering if the Blue Jays had ever had the same five starters for two seasons in a row (never mind five!), so I trolled through the yearly records, with the bar set at 19 starts... Once! They used the same five starters (Halladay, Burnett, Marcum, McGowan, Litsch) in 2007 and 2008. They also had a four starter combination (Stieb, Clancy, Leal, Gott) endure for two seasons (1982 and 1983). There were a couple of three pitcher combinations that remained in place for four seasons: Stieb-Clancy-Leal (1981-84) and Stieb-Clancy-Key (1985-88). The most enduring two pitcher combination was Stieb-Clancy, which was in place for a remarkable nine seasons (1980-88.) Stieb-Key had six seasons (1985-90), and Hentgen-Guzman had five seasons in six years (1993-96, 1998). Key-Clancy, Leal-Clancy, and Stieb-Leal each had four years together as part of the larger combinations mentioned earlier - and Stottlemyre-Guzman also had four years together (1991-94). Just seven men in team history have made 19 starts for the Jays in five consecutive seasons: Dave Stieb (1980-90, 11 years), Jim Clancy (1980-88, 9 years), Jimmy Key (1985-92, 8 years), Roy Halladay (2002-2009, 8 years), Pat Hentgen (1993-99, 7 years), Juan Guzman (1991-96, 6 years), and Todd Stottlemyre (1990-94, 5 years),

Magpie - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#224684) #

I often suspect that the extremely unusual durability of Stieb and Clancy - nine years together, and in the early, formative years of the team's history, no less - has somewhat warped our view here in Toronto as to just how regularly most pitching staffs turn over. Stieb and Clancy were extremely unusual. I mentioned just 7 starters in Jays history have shown up for 5 years in a row - over the same period, the Yankees have just 6 starters who have done likewise (Hunter, Guidry, Pettitte, Cone, Clemens, Mussina.)

Thomas - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#224685) #

Kyle Drabek
Brett Anderson
Brandon Morrow
Aaron Sanchez
Dylan Davis

earlweaverfan - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#224687) #

So, if you were to ask who among the Jays prospects and starters will be the most successful pitchers in 2014 - whether pitching for the Jays or for some other team - I would vote for Marcum, Morrow, Cecil, Romero, and Stewart. Why do I say that? To me, the first four all have the pitching stuff that could make that outcome highly possible. Why I like this crew so much is that there appears to be real emotional intelligence in them and great heart. Those qualities will enable them to keep on growing beyond their mere physical capacity. I also think that the fact that they have bonded so well together and have learned to both compete with and support each other is a really big strength that will cause the Jays not to break them up lightly, unless injury or a really big trade comes through.

Why Stewart and not Drabek? Its more a comment about Drabek - I just think that someone who has the pedigree and has always been destined for great things may not know as much about overcoming challenges as others, just a hunch.

The two individuals I was less convinced by in 2010 are Morrow and Romero - the former struggled before he turned on the jets. Is this now the new base, or will he be up and down? Romero would have masterful outings followed by high pressure outings where he fell off the rails (like going home to Los Angeles). But now that Farrell is in town, I think the odds have strengthened for both of them.

Alvarez, Sanchez, and others could turn out to be the pick of the litter, but by 2014, they will still be getting their feet wet at the MLB level, and the ones named above will be deeply experienced, confident and multi-skilled.

Mike Green - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#224688) #

The Dodgers had Koufax/Drysdale/Podres from 59 to 63 and Williams also for the first 3 years. At that point, teams went with 4 man rotations and swingmen.

greenfrog - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#224689) #

Romero
Drabek
Morrow
Cecil
Sanchez (mid-season callup)

Setup man: Wojciechowski
Closer: Gose

Alex Obal - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#224691) #

2014 Jays rotation: Halladay, Moyer, Zito, Wakefield, Suppan and Tallet. (Wanna bet?)

ayjackson - Thursday, October 28 2010 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#224693) #

I think everybody's pretty "light" around here these days.

Richard S.S. - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 08:04 AM EDT (#224695) #

Marcum will be 32 starting in 2014 and will probably be traded and starting with another team before 2014. Romero and Morrow will be 29 starting in 2014 and may or may not still be on the team in 2014. Cecil will be 27 and Drabek will be 26 in 2014, but only one will stay with the Club until then. Greinke will 27-28 through the remaining two years of his contract, and 30 in 2014.

Our greatest assets are our pitchers. When we find out who isn't traded this off-season will be when we know who starts in 2011. Any time beyond doesn't matter yet.

BalzacChieftain - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#224697) #

Meh, I like the idea of keeping Marcum around well into his 30s. I think he's one of those pitchers that will age well due to the type of pitcher he is. Tops out at 88, throws a ton of changeups, great control, relies on his location, etc.

bpoz - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#224700) #

I hope I am reading this right. I believe some Bauxites are being serious and some are being humorous. So I do not want to insult anyone.

For Alex Obal Halladay,Moyer,Zito,Wakefield,Suppan,Tallet in 2014. The possibility of you being wrong is as good as anyone else. IMO Halladay could cost a pretty penny but we may be able to get bargains on the others, possible incentive deals.
Now are you proposing a 6 man rotation or 5 and a swing man.
I have doubts about Suppan as he is right handed and so may not age well. The others all bring something to the table.
1) 3 LH and we know how teams struggle against them and they age quite well.
2)Halladay IMO is still good.
3)Teams all fear the Wakefield effect.
4) Jays fans will be celebrating personal milestones all year. # games,wins,200/250/300 win club.
5) IMO we will have more day games due to the increase in senior customers.

Bower & Sawchuck.... Brett Farve are examples of success at an older age.

Lastly the Jay's 2009 season featured Halladay and only inexperienced/young starters which we can label ? marks. I enjoyed that season which was a jumping off point for what is now regarded as a good/improving and deep rotation. As a long term Jays fan 2009 was a land mark year.

ayjackson - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#224701) #

While I appreciate the clever develpment of Will's metaphor. The Box will like not award a no-prize for humour at the expense of another bauxite. Hopefully Will can appreciate the joke and not take offense, otherwise, this thread is far from over.

ayjackson - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#224702) #

projecting 2014 starting lineups is serious enough for Baseball America, so why not...

C - Travis D'Arnaud
1B - Adrian Gonzalez
2B - Aaron Hill
SS - Adeiny Hechavarria
3B - Kellen Sweeney
LF - Travis Snider
CF - Anthony Gose
RF - Moises Sierra
DH - Adam Lind

S1 - Kyle Drabek
S2 - Ricky Romero
S3 - Brandon Morrow
S4 - Henderson Alvarez
S5 - Deck McGuire

CL - Asher Wojciechowski

Ahhh, ohhh yeah, that felt good!

China fan - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#224703) #

Sorry, AY, that was not prolonged enough.

And yes, I fully realize that another rare use of the "unfeature" punishment is looming....

Mike Green - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#224704) #

AYJ, Vernon Wells is owed $21 million for 2014 and has a full no-trade. Of course, that should be no problem because in 2013, Googleface will buy the club, put Vernon on a desert island (virtually speaking) with his money, and that will be that.

I always find Baseball America's 3 year projections to be good for a laugh. Scouting is part cold analysis and part dream. Clubs ideally leave as much of the dreaming as possible to fans, but realistically some of it finds its way into scouts' projections. BAs 3 year projections reflect a good deal of that.

mathesond - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#224711) #

So, how 'bout them Giants?

Mylegacy - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#224712) #

Did I ever mention I like scotch? Single malt natch.

As to which of our plethora of pitching phenoms will delight us in 2014: fu*ked if I know - a phrase not far removed from mental mastarbation.

My personal fantasy would include five of: Morrow, Romero, Cecil, Drabek, Stewart, Sanchez, Syndergaard, McGuire, Jenkins, Dyson, Alvarez, Murphy Griffin or Griffin Murphy, Marcum and Halladay. I've always been a fan of Mr Halladay.

Mike Green - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#224715) #

A propos of Mr. Halladay, a Hall Watch teaser. The most statistically similar pitcher I have found to him is Juan Marichal. He doesn't really look similar because starting pitchers threw longer into games in the 60s, for a variety of reasons (bullpen/bench roster construction, pitcher/DH, lower run scored/lower strikeout environments...). Another interesting pitcher to think about from the short career/impact of fame perspective is Lefty Gomez.

My question though, is what should I call it. Ordinarily, it would be Hall Watch 2010- Roy Halladay, but that seems too clinical for the much-loved Doc. Suggestions?

Matthew E - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#224717) #

Of all the guesses/predictions we've had so far, I think this is the most audacious, from greenfrog:

Closer: Gose

Mick Doherty - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#224718) #

Suggestions?
Down the Hall from the Doctor's Office ....

One Pitcher Per Hall, a Day ....

Next?

Richard S.S. - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#224720) #

Who gets traded? Marcum -3rd round pick, 2003; Romero - 1st round pick, 2005; Morrow - 1st round pick, 2006; Cecil - 1st round pick, 2007 or Drabek - 1st round pick, 2006. (Zach Greinke - 1st round pick, 2002). Who joins the Staff and who lasts?

Thomas - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#224721) #

Control pitchers do not age well, as a rule. Marcum might be an exception, but that is a pattern and one reason I would not be shocked to see him dealt this offseason or during the next year.

CeeBee - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#224722) #

I suppose Moyer would be another exception though he is a portsider. Don't have time to look right now but I bet there's a pretty long list of exceptions if you go back a hundred years or so :)

greenfrog - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#224723) #

The chances of Gose being the closer in 2014 are probably somewhere between 0% and 1%, but I was trying to come up with something weird and wonderful. Hey, if Sergio Santos can go from a failed minor-league SS (career OPS: 698) to a 27-year-old reliever with an ERA+ of 148 (and 56 Ks in 51.2 IP) in his first MLB season (after logging *28* total minor-league innings), the possibility is at least no longer outrageous / laughable / absurd / completely daft.

DaveB - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#224724) #

Juan Marichal is a good comparison for Roy but my favourite comp is Fergie Jenkins. Similar size, similar pitching traits. The extra wins by Fergie were a product of four-man rotations, but otherwise the numbers and especially the league rankings are close when you compare Fergie's eight seasons from 1967-74 (from 24-31 years old) to Roy's seven complete years from 2002-10 (25-33 years old). During those stretches they were top five in their league every year in innings, often led in complete games, perennally among league leaders in most strikeouts and best BB-K ratios. Fergie has a slightly higher WAR rating per year than Roy in that stretch, partly due to injury. Fergie was top three in Cy Young voting five times in those eight years, won it once and was narrowly beaten out by Catfish Hunter another time. Five of the CY Awards during his time with the Cubs were won by guys named Gibson, Seaver and Carlton. Fergie was a notch below them and it's no shame to Roy that he also is just short of that all-time great status (to this point). Like Roy with the Jays, Fergie was a horse for the Cubs and often didn't get his due because his team was rarely in contention. They're both good all-round athletes and while Fergie gets a lot of credit for his hitting, Roy did well his first year in the NL, hitting .141. Fergie was around that average every year but one with the Cubs; that one year he hit .243 including 6 HRs in just 115 at-bats (sounds like Travis Snider).

Fergie went on to pitch nine more years after that stretch and win 110 more games, including a great 18-win season for Texas at age 35. I don't think anyone would bet against Roy pitching five more years and adding 80-100 more wins to his total, either.

greenfrog - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#224725) #

BRef's similarity scores for Doc:

Similar pitchers:

Ron Guidry
Tim Hudson
Bret Saberhagen
Roy Oswalt
CC Sabathia
Don Newcombe
Dizzy Dean
Larry Corcoran (Larry Corcoran?)
Johan Santana
Eddie Lopat

Similar pitchers through 33:

Mike Mussina
Andy Pettitte
Tim Hudson
Jimmy Key
John Candelaria
Bret Saberhagen
Carl Hubbell
Jim Bunning
Don Newcombe
Bob Welch

Pretty impressive company. I didn't realize that in his final season (at age 39) Mussina went 20-9 with a 3.37 ERA (ERA+ 132). If he'd hung on for two more 15-win seasons, he could have reached 300 wins. I seem to recall he had some back issues towards the end, though.

Mick Doherty - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#224728) #

Fergie ... won it once and was narrowly beaten out by Catfish Hunter another time.

Which was an enormous travesty. Fergie WAS the Texas Rangers rotation that year and could well have been AL MVP. That was the New York media effect.

Mick Doherty - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#224729) #

Larry Corcoran (Larry Corcoran?)

I looked up Corcoran and the dude doubled as a SS/OF (didn't hit much, .223 career) but over his first five seasons as a pitcher,all at or before age 24, won 170 games (do the math -- 34 wins a year!). including 43 as a rookie. But he only won seven more after that. First pitcher to throw three no-hitters. I am embarrassed I didn't know any of that. (Oh by the way, he apparently also faced big league hitters as a documented switch-pitcher.)

Anyone should be thrilled to have Corcoran as a comp!

greenfrog - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#224730) #

Larry had quite the career back in the 1880s. As a 20-year-old rookie, he racked up 43 wins in a mere 536.1 innings. However, he finished second in wins to "iron arm" pitcher / outfielder Jim McCormick (45 wins) and a mere fifth in IP (McCormick, making today's innings-eaters look like nibbling LOOGYs, piled up a league-leading 657.2 innings).

Corcoran did, however, lead the league in K/9 IP (4.497).

Shockingly, after averaging 456 IP in each of his first five seasons, LC appears to have flamed out. He pitched just 113.1 IP over the next three seasons, and that was his career. Apparently front offices didn't consider pitcher abuse points to be a valid metric at the time.

DaveB - Friday, October 29 2010 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#224731) #

That's hilarious Mick. Thanks for the link and the switch-pitching note on Corcoran. Like you, I had no clue who he was. I wonder if any switch-hitters thought of alternating on every pitch, just to see if Corcoran would do the same.

Baseball Reference is great but sometimes their player comps are strange. There are very few guys on Halladay's comp list (perhaps only Hubbell) that I would consider as good as he has been for most of this decade.

Catfish Hunter did have a great season in '74 (identical 25-12 records and slightly lower ERA, they each had six shutouts) when he beat out Fergie so it wasn't a total travesty. If WAR had been around at that time it might have been helpful: Fergie 7.6, Hunter 6.4. So travesty it is!!!

Magpie - Saturday, October 30 2010 @ 05:19 AM EDT (#224733) #

That was the New York media effect.

That the Oakland pitcher beat the Texas pitcher?

What especially struck me about Larry Corcoran - 5'3, 127 pounds.

Magpie - Saturday, October 30 2010 @ 05:25 AM EDT (#224734) #

Shockingly, after averaging 456 IP in each of his first five seasons, LC appears to have flamed out.

Or maybe not - until 1884, the rules had mandated that he throw underhanded, from about 50 feet. What happened was they changed the rules, and started allowing pitchers to throw pretty much any way they wanted. Most likely, other people were better equipped than Corcoran to take advantage...

bpoz - Saturday, October 30 2010 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#224743) #

Richard SS,
You asked who gets traded. If that is an invitation for me to talk my head off, well thank you so much.

My statements are mostly philosophical, guidelines that I am reading between the lines from quotes that may be inaccurate and interpretations from experts whose sources are fuzzy.

Lets just say anyone can be traded off the Jay's organization if AA believes it to be beneficial, talent wise, financially and any other ways.

There are MOVES (trades & freebies) that help the ML team in 2011 and raw talent acquisition (Gose) future help. I believe his priority is the future. I am convinced that he spent as little $ as possible on the 2010 ML team and spent big $ on unproven draft & international signings.

With his army of scouts he can now strengthen both ML & minors. If he trades J Bautista and all of our big 4 SPs, except Morrow then he has traded all of our sell high players for futures. I will then be glued to Batters Box (I jumped off the ML boat/truck), how sad but there are more than enough "don't want to insult anyone" teams that will trade their future for a quick fix. The army of scouts justify themselves. SPs Morrow, S Hill, Draback, +2.
I cannot see this drastic a result happening but Singer for Guidry did not happen as I understand the history. But F Mc Griff did...
Marketing nightmare in 2011 and genius in 2013 +.... I cannot see risking 2011 after so many 2010 positives.

Lots of possibilities for the ML team:-

1)Already signed Molina for the asset development of Morrow.
2)If there is anything worth protecting from 2007 draft & before then put them on the 40 man. J MacDonald is the only bench player protected, the rest of the bench comes from ST non roster invitees and maybe Mastrionni etc...
3) Mastrionni etc... Jeroloman,Eamus,Farina,Magnuson. They all can't be protected I suppose but not being essential can be replace by easy pickups.Non roster invitees. But we may lose a dark horse.
4) We have SP depth for the ML team. The big 4 + about 4 #5 candidates that are ML ready. Improving the Bullpen is addressed by depth.WE have a lot , add more and add still more with non roster invitees. A mixture of hard throwers & strike throwers.
5) My best guess is if S Hill can be signed cheap, is healthy and looks OK/Good in ST then trade him for a future something, because he is our #5 at best and we have many other equal choices, and he is probably not our top #5 choice. The acquiring team gets a cheap $ option at an affordable player price.

TamRa - Sunday, October 31 2010 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#224745) #

Hill is Jays property, doesn't need any more effort to sign than, for instance, Marcum (both are arb eligible)
As for trading him, i think the best way to do that is for him to build value in regular season games - that's the main reason I tentitively project him to break camp as the #5. let him get 15-20 starts and prove himself, then deal him in June or July if you get a good offer and bring on Drabek.

christaylor - Sunday, October 31 2010 @ 01:26 AM EDT (#224747) #

"If he trades J Bautista and all of our big 4 SPs, except Morrow then he has traded all of our sell high players for futures."

There is no such thing as a "sell high" player before one makes a trade -- one can evaluate that a player was sold high if a trade works out. The very notion of sell high rubs me the wrong way in a few ways. It just speaks to your own perceived value of the player relative to their most recent performance.

Throwing it around as if it meant anything else, seems to assume there are bunch of gullible GMs out there who would think that J-Bau is a lock for 50 HR for the next few years. Heck, I doubt many GMs would rank him as a lock for 30 HR. His value is very uncertain at the moment, GMs know this, the Jays know this (I can't see him being locked up long term).

I get the prospect fetishism, I really do, I get that a sub-group of Jays fans would love to see the Jays system stacked and get highly ranked by BA, BP or Sickles. However, at the end of the day, relative to the Jays W/L record, that means very little. One can make many more bad teams out of top prospect lists from the last decade than great ones, which is relevant because people in favor of dumping "merely good" player use the idea that the Jays need high-ceiling talent to compete in the AL east. A lot of high-ceiling talent turns out to be just good, more turns out to not cut it in the majors, that tiny tiny fraction become great. Advocating a tearing things apart now is madness, there's been real progress in the org as a whole and where it matters, with the ML team (in terms of wins, but more importantly the future outlook for players on the roster).

At any rate, rant over. Hopefully the suggestion of tearing apart a rotation many teams would like to have going forward was just a scary halloween thing.

bpoz - Sunday, October 31 2010 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#224758) #

Christaylor... Sorry to scare you. The 2011 Ml Team nightmare could last longer, if all are gone.

We can change the Sell High wording to something else. But I do believe something happens after a recent good or bad season. Maybe trading value or FA contracts.

bpoz - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 11:07 AM EDT (#224776) #

Christaylor... "Gullible GMs" I thought for sure he is right, GMs are big shots and would not be gullible. I still strongly agree with you, but just for conversation a few deals J Smolz, M Sirotka, M Young, that $6mil Nasty Boys pitcher G Ash put on waivers and was claimed by someone. Baltimore grabbed T Batista but nobody grabbed EE who then popped quite a few HRs. I am sure there are other examples all over baseball. I find this quite intriguing as trivia.

Richard S.S. - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#224777) #

I can hardly wait for Mick Doherty's Sudden Death In Texas posting so I can grumble about the Manager.

That being said, I think this will be Alex Anthopoulos' most critical, most important off-season of his career, now and the future. He's taken his biggest step in this off-season getting The Manager Of The Future. His next biggest step must be the Bullpen. Why? In 2013, you should make the post-season. In 2012, you could make the post-season. In 2011, you might make the post-season. The start of that begins, with a Stud Closer on a 2-4 year contact, a top setup-man on a 2-4 year contract and 4 and only 4 more good relievers who can be dominant in the AL East.

Mick Doherty - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#224778) #

I can hardly wait for Mick Doherty's Sudden Death In Texas posting so I can grumble about the Manager.

No such plans.. First, the series ain't over yet. Although the local talking heads are already focusing air and print time on "even with the WS failuer" ... "greatest teason in Rangers history" and "more than anyone could have expected."

I just hope the Rangers don't follow the lead of their Lone Star brethren 2005 Astros, who went to frracnhsie-greatest lengths by beating the Braves AND Cardinals in the playoffs, then impoded to be swept by the White Sox (the White Sox???) in the series -- and have done nothing close to sniffing the playoffs since then.

These Rangers are much younger than those Astros were, though, so there is that ...

mathesond - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#224781) #

And, the Rangers ain't the Cowboys, so they've got that going for them as well

John Northey - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#224782) #

Oh please no signing any reliever to a 4 year deal. Those so rarely work out that it is just throwing good money after bad.

The following had 40+ saves in 2007. Listed with name, team, saves, and saves in 2010.
Valverde (ARI) 47 - 26
Borowski (CLE) 45 - 0 (6 total since)
Cordero (MIL) 44 - 40 (30+ every season)
Hoffman (SDP) 42 - 10 (ERA+ of 67)
Putz (SEA) 40 - 3 (20 total since)
Rodriguez (LAA) 40 - 25 (team tried to void his contract)
Jenks (CHW) 40 - 27 (peak of 30 since)

So out of 7 closers only 1 of them hit 40 this year, 3 were at 10 or less, the others in the 20's.

The next 2 on the list had 19 saves this year between them. 2 of the next 3 (tied for 10th) had solid years (Papelbon & Nathan).

So it wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be, but a GM who risks a lot of money on a closer is taking a big risk.

China fan - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#224787) #

Bautista wins the Hank Aaron award for best offensive player in the AL (ahead of Hamilton and Cabrera). His reaction? Says he can hit 60 homers next season.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/bluejays/article/883820--griffin-bautista-earns-al-honour-but-about-next-year

dan gordon - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#224793) #

Couple of intesting items on the Sun website today. One says Selig has stated he wants 2 more teams in the post season starting in 2012. Would be a huge development for the Blue Jays, obviously, to be able to finish 3rd in the division and still make the playoffs.

Another article says the Jays should make a push to get V. Martinez, given his proven track record and ability to play C/1B. Says the Farrell connection may make it more likely they could get him.

Go Giants!!

christaylor - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#224796) #

Being gullible isn't the same thing as making mistakes. Those are all best described as mistakes.

Smoltz was dealt as a win now move (which get panned but I think are almost always forgivable given that flags fly forever), w/the Sirotka situation I'm still not sure whether it was Ash not doing due diligence by getting the Jays doctors to check him out or K. Williams pulling something, The Michael Young move for He Who Shall Not Be Named was definitely an unforgivable win now move as, if I recall the Jays were 5 (or so) back of the WC... but then again, M Young has exceeded his expectations as a prospect, so... take that for what it is worth.

The waiver claims all had other circumstances... waiver claims tend to be rolls of the dice and in general big things aren't expected of them in any event.

bpoz - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#224803) #

John N ...nice work on the closers. Now that is NOT A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE and oh yea IMO.

Some of those guys like Putz were not closers in 2010. But I don't know enough to say more on that.

As a Bauxite I look at stats and go from there. If I had AA's army of scouts then... Never mind.

I am sort of sure AA will bring in some favorites but I bet he will bring in some long shots.
I looked at 2010 Jay RP career records, just about all had 1 or 2 incredible seasons. I don't know if a No Name bullpen can succeed in the AL East.
But our chances are better if the extra wild card is a realty.

Magpie - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#224810) #

I don't know if a No Name bullpen can succeed in the AL East.

Quick, name three of Tampa Bay's relievers...

92-93 - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#224811) #

I don't know the No Name qualifications but RSoriano, CQualls, and DWheeler were all solid relievers heading into the season with closing experience.

Jonny German - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#224812) #

Shawn Camp! no...

bpoz - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 06:31 PM EDT (#224813) #

I guess No Name can become Famous Name fast and vice versa. S Camp 2007 TB then Jays. He just missed out on the TB winning ride.

Richard S.S. - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#224816) #

Would K.C. trade Yoakim Soria, 05/18/84, 11:$4M, 12:$6M club option, 13:$8M club option, 14:$8.75M club option ($0.75M buyout for each option) - compliments to Cot's, 43 saves http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/soriajo01.shtml? Add in Zach Greinke and offer Brett Cecil and Travis Snider. That would be a fair deal and perhaps the only type of deal that might tempt K.C. GM Dayton Moore - value for value. If it's a bad deal, so be it. You can't be afraid to try.

Four year deals for relievers are risky. Try 3 years plus an option year, or 2 years plus 2 option years, if a straight 4 year contract is too rich for your blood.

If you go after a closer, try for young (Jays have been inquiring about Joba Chamberlain http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/chambjo03.shtml the past 2 seasons - New York's not happy with him), youngish (Jonathan Papelbon http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/chambjo03.shtml - Boston's not happy with him) or almost youngish (Rafael Soriano http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/soriara01.shtml - Type A, might be worth it.)

Toronto's rise to fame in the late 80's and early 90's started from a very good Bullpen, good staring pitching, and a 6-7-man batting staff that was very decent. (Toronto's Bullpens were two Studs, two very dependable relievers and two young starters refining their skill.) Pieces were added for '91 (Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez - top value, for Joe Carter and Roberto Alomar - good value, better upside; Devon White), and for '92 (Dave Winfield, Candy Maldonado, Jack Morris) to create the Magic.

We have better starting pitching, a 5-6-man batting staff that is very decent, and not much else (Okay, maybe 2-3 pieces for the 'Pen).

We need a Stud Closer. You can pick up Gregg's option and/or sign a good free agent reliever (Not Downs or Frasor). Keep the best 3 relievers (not Downs) in last years 'Pen and add a young starter or two.

We need a Stud CF to replace Wells who moves to RF, Bautista to 3B; and/or

We need a Stud 1B to avoid Lind at first, and/or

We need a Stud 3B to keep Bautista in RF.

I don't think we'll get more than 2, filling in the other spots with serviceable 1 year deals. But 1 of the 2 must be a Stud Closer, because we might be in the post-season this coming year.

Mike Green - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#224817) #

A minor linguistic point. I seem to recall that the use of the word "stud" in connection with a ballplayer began with the rotisserie craze of the 80s- "a five category stud". When I hear the word, I always wonder, "where's the mare?"

Nolan - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#224821) #

I don't know about anyone else here, but I would be disappointed to see Bud add two extra teams to the playoffs. Baseball has always been unique in that there are relatively few teams that make the postseason. The number of teams has increased in the recent past, but baseball remains unique among the major sports leagues, and I think this distinction is important.

In my opinion MLB gave away some of their charm when they instituted interleague play and if they expand the playoffs the trend will just continue.

On another subject, I really hope AA doesn't target experienced, expensive relievers this offseason in trades or free agency. For example someone mentioned upthread mentioned a Grienke/Soria for Snider/Cecil trade; the Jays need hitters and trading a potential game changer like Snider in a deal for a reliever weakens the Jays in the area they can least afford it.

I wasn't the greatest JP fan, but hopefully AA will follow his strategy with relievers and the bullpen [BJ Ryan excepted].

christaylor - Monday, November 01 2010 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#224824) #

I agree on adding playoff teams, unless of course the two teams play the WC in a one game playoff. Presto, winning divisions really means something again.

Inter-league play is a positive development I think, save for the implementation, they've not rotated it the way they ought to have, some of the "rivalry" match up are a joke, and the DH rule should be used to protect AL pitchers.

Personally, as a kid, it would have been nice to see some of the NL stars come through Toronto. That's what inter-league is good for, to give fans a chance to see players live they otherwise wouldn't -- it would have been nice to get a chance to have seen Ryne Sandberg play at the dome.

Mike Green - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#224828) #

A propos of nothing, your baseball name of the day. To long-suffering Giants' fans, it must feel pretty good.

earlweaverfan - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#224831) #

I would also suggest that the word "stud" is misplaced and overused here. But maybe for different reasons. It seems to suggest a player who is widely recognized as a star, one of the best at their position. If everyone believes that to be true, then AA would have to 'buy high' to get them.

If you look at what kinds of moves AA has made to date, he has either brought in underappreciated players who have the potential to become a star eventually (Escobar) or someone who has the chance to outperform expectations in a short-term gig: (Gonzalez, Buck). All of these are great examples of "buying low" and Gonzalez, at least, was a great example of "selling high"; Buck may or may not follow him, if AA chooses to go the draft pick route. The recent acquisition of Buchholz may or may not pan out, but if it does, it will be another example of buying low.

The one recent acquisition that turned into a genuine "stud" (if the word has any meaning at all) - Bautista, was not expected by any of us to fit that category when he arrived. Even now, these pages are filled with comments by people who doubt Bautista's capacity to keep his performance going at a similar level.

All of which is to say that, unless AA believes he can win it all this year, he has had plently of reinforcement behind his preference for looking for undiscovered gems. If he does much more of that, people will be referring to him as our "Stud GM".

bpoz - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#224832) #

AA is putting the 2011 pieces together.

I find that he is a quiet guy who only explains his actions after he has made them.

He has said that he intends to improve OBP and the bullpen. I am most interested in how he will add and subtract to achieve that goal.
I BELIEVE he made 2 very impressive moves:-
1) Most important... add scouts and draft & sign high ceiling players. Lots of expensive amateur talent will flood the system with quality.
2) 2nd in importance:- Somehow opportunity presented itself in Y Escobar, without A Gon I don't think the deal gets done. A Gon's good defense and 17 Hr to date IMO made it happen. The minor leaguers... who knows. Atlanta made the post season so IMO they cannot lose this deal. Morrow deal:- IMO 2 teams willing to give up nothing critical to get nothing critical. IMO so far the Jays win big.

I cannot FULLY understand the Halladay deal, which was forced sort of, because so much depends on the future regarding what we received. Halladay + $6Mil. Was it Halladay for Drabeck and $6mil for the other 2 prospects or some other combination?

AA has already stated that the bullpen is not 1 guy, so depth will be key.

Dewey - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#224833) #

There�s a nice slide show of Giants history in today�s NYT. Photo #6 (at this link, if it works here):

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/11/01/sports/SPTSGIANTSWS-6.html

shows just how far Mays had to go for his celebrated catch in the 1954 Series. Anyone who hasn�t seen photos of The Polo Grounds (can�t be many on Da Box, surely?) might enjoy these.

Sorry if this interrupts any stream in this thread.

dan gordon - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#224836) #

To long-suffering Giants' fans, it must feel pretty good.

I've been a Giants fan for 44 years, and yes it feels very good. Long time coming. Have already ordered some stuff from mlb.com. Seems different from when the Blue Jays won in '92 and '93. Of course, having been created in '77, they had only been around for 16 seasons so there wasn't the long period of frustration.

The Giants really dominated in the post season, going 11 and 5. Held the opposition to just 41 runs in 15 games, against 2 great hitting teams and one decent hitting team. Plus, their key players aside from Huff are all under 30 (Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgarner, Wilson, Posey, Sandoval if he can bounce back). Excellent 1B prospect with the great name of Brandon Belt about a year away. Could be a good long run for this club.

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#224838) #

Could be a good long run for this club.

Maybe -- and same for the Rangers. Could this be the first of five or six consecutive Ranger/Giant Fall Classics?

(No.)

DaveB - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#224844) #

A propos of nothing, your baseball name of the day.

There's always a story behind every name. I had never heard of Cuddles Marshall, but he is nonetheless a good story with connections to the Blue Jays and Vancouver baseball history, as well as a few notable Major League games.

* Cuddles Marshall's first name is Clarence, one of 73 (I made a quick count, so it might be off by one or two) Major League players with that first name. Not surprisingly the majority of them went by their middle name or a nickname (including of course Cito), a colourful selection that includes Footsie Blair, Buster Bray, Cupid Childs, Choo Choo Coleman, Chick Galloway, Shovel Hodge, Dutch Hoffman, Hooks Iott, Bubber Jonnard, Slats Jordan, Butch Metzger, Pants Rowland, Pop-boy Smith, Steamboat Struss, Babe Twombly, Tillie Walker and Yam Yaryan. It looks like if you want your kid to have a colourful nickname, your best bet is to name him Clarence.

* Cuddles Marshall was born in Bellingham, one of only three Major Leaguers from that small northern Washington State city. One of the other two was former Jay Ty Taubenheim.

* He was one of the youngest players in the Majors when he joined the Yankees as a reliever in 1946. The first batter the 20-year-old rookie faced was Ted Williams, in a game at Fenway Park. Williams hit into an inning-ending double play. A few days later Marshall turned 21 and could legally celebrate with a beer.

* Marshall was the starting pitcher for the first night game at Yankee Stadium, May 28, 1946. It was his first Major League start. He pitched well but lost 2-1 to Dutch Leonard and the Washington Senators. That effort earned him another start, five days later, against the St. Louis Browns. He went nine innings, allowed two earned runs, got the win. It was his only complete game in the Majors.

* The first Yankee he played catch with on his first day with the club was Joe DiMaggio. Said Cuddles: "I threw the ball 20 feet over his head." Indeed, Cuddles suffered from wildness, which eventually prompted his exit from the Majors.

* Cuddles got the nickname during his rookie season, from Yankees closer Joe Page. Marshall was a big kid whose good looks were compared to Hollywood star Tyrone Power. One day, when a photographer showed up with a bunch of girls looking for a Major Leaguer to pose, Page said something along the lines of "Get Clarence, he likes to cuddle." A nickname was born, if not a legend.

* Cuddles, while pitching for the St. Louis Browns, contributed his share to the most lopsided game in Major League history, a 29-4 loss to the Red Sox on June 8, 1950. Cuddles pitched 1.2 innings, allowing seven hits, walking five, and giving up nine earned runs.

* That 1950 season was Cuddles' last in the Majors. His final game was Sept. 30 against the Chicago White Sox. The starting pitcher for the Browns that day was Al Widmar, later the pitching coach for the Blue Jays. Cuddles pitched the last two innings of an 8-2 loss at Comiskey Park. Attendance was 839, undoubtedly even less by the time he took the mound. Cuddles faced the mininum six batters, got a couple double plays. It was his first game without giving up a run in more than two months.

* Cuddles' last pro season was 1953. He played briefly for the Hollywood Stars that year, managed by legendary Bobby Bragan, and was a teammate of Mel Queen. He was released by the Stars about a month before their famous brawl with the Los Angeles Angels, which was eventually settled by the Los Angeles Police Department. Queen was a prominent participant in that brawl, and one newspaper account suggested his haymakers should earn him a shot at heavyweight champ Rocky Marciano. Cuddles joined the Vancouver Capilanos in August of that year and threw his final pro pitch in what is now Nat Bailey Stadium. Eleven years earlier, Cuddles' older brother John started his professional Minor League career with the Vancouver Capilanos, who played at Athletic Park.

So, thanks MikeG for mentioning Cuddles Marshall. A little bit of a search on a heretofore unknown guy with a funny nickname brought up connections with the Blue Jays, Vancouver baseball history, and some fond personal thoughts of my old friend and lifelong consummate newspaperman, Clancy Loranger. Clancy covered the Capilanos in 1953 for the Vancouver Province newspaper and "broke" the news of the former Yankee being signed by the Capilanos. Clancy's name was memorialized in the naming of Clancy Loranger Way, a small street running behind the right field foul line and first-base stands of Nat Bailey Stadium.

Your mention of Cuddles Marshall was a propos of a lot.

Mike Green - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#224845) #

I had no idea, DaveB. Thanks for that.

Dewey - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#224847) #

What a fascinating post! Thanks, too, DaveB. Shovel Hodge, Steamboat Struss, and Yam Yaryan were all as new to me as was Cuddles himself. Not to mention several of the others. Great post.

Mick Doherty - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#224849) #

Great bit, DaveB. You ever do something like that again, offer it up as a Pinch Hit and we'll get you youur own thread started!

perlhack - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#224852) #

In J.P. Ricciardi news, he's now the Special Assistant to the General Manager of the Mets, a fellow named Sandy Alderson. This seems oddly familiar, in a 1990s sort of way.

greenfrog - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#224853) #

Interesting move. For a long time I've thought that Ricciardi was better suited to being an assistant GM than an actual GM. His legacy in Toronto seems to have been somewhat rehabilitated over the last year or two with the emergence of various players acquired on his watch (Romero, Cecil and Bautista come immediately to mind).

Chuck - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#224857) #

This seems oddly familiar, in a 1990s sort of way.

And don't forget that Billy Beane began his pro playing career (such as it was) as a Met.

Matthew E - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#224859) #

This is potentially good news. If the Mets, under new management, can turn things around and become any kind of a power in the NL East, it could take some of the wind out of the Yankees' sails.

Dewey - Tuesday, November 02 2010 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#224861) #

it could take some of the wind out of the Yankees' sails.

Or it could prompt another Yankee's spending spree. 'Now we'll have to get Greinke AND Lee' sort of response to this incursion on their divine right to dominate New York media and sports.

Magpie - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 06:53 AM EDT (#224864) #

a teammate of Mel Queen.

Not the long-time Jays factotum, but his father.

John Northey - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 08:17 AM EDT (#224865) #

If the Mets and Yanks split the highest priced free agents then at least they aren't all going to the Yankees (among those who are willing to go to NY) or to Boston.

Ideally we'd see 2 NL markets go nuts (NY Mets, LA Dodgers, Phillies, Cubs are all possibilities although the Dodgers won't until their owners finances are cleaned up) and suck away a few free agents from the beasts of the AL East.

In the end it shows the value of developing your own aces. As another thread shows the Jays aces have been Stieb/Hentgen/Halladay and all 3 were home grown.

bpoz - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#224868) #

I absolutely do not want to quibble.

Your best guy is your Ace. But what do we call lets say Key who was 2nd best IMO to Steib.

I am just leading up to thoughts on some recent very good group starters. Oaklands Langford & Co, then Zito & Co just to name 2. And what markers do our Top 4 have to break to be considered in a group like that. Are any of our guys close to those markers, if they exist.

Jonny German - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#224869) #

Ideally we'd see 2 NL markets go nuts (NY Mets, LA Dodgers, Phillies, Cubs are all possibilities although the Dodgers won't until their owners finances are cleaned up) and suck away a few free agents from the beasts of the AL East.

Not to be trite, but... that's not ideal at all. Ideal would be for Bud Lite to address the core problem, which is that it is currently economically sensible for the Yankees to spend an absurd amount beyond what anybody else is spending. The difficult way to address it would be to put at least one more team in New York; the simpler way would be to impose actual restrictions on spending. The luxury tax isn't getting it done, not only in that it is not enough to stop the Yankees from buying their way into the postseason ad infinitum, but also in that there's no requirement for "poor" teams to re-invest the revenue sharing money they receive.

Payrolls per Cot's, in millions of dollars:

	2009	2010	2011
NY Yankees	$207	$166	$118
Mean + 3 std dev	$196	$153	$116
Mean + 2 std dev	$161	$121	$90
Second highest	$139	$120	$96
Mean	$92	$55	$36
Median	$81	$50	$30
Second lowest	$43	$19	$4
Std dev	$35	$33	$27
Lowest	$35	$8	$0

92-93 - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#224873) #

The core problem isn't the Yankees spending so much money - it's the other owners not matching them. As you say, "there's no requirement for poor teams to re-invest the revenue sharing money," so how can anybody complain about what the mighty Yankees are doing? Frankly, I'm jealous, knowing there's nothing stopping Rogers from doing exactly the same thing the Yankees did with YES other than their own incompetence. I'm vehemently against any idea of a salary cap, and have yet to see a logical, coherent argument explaining why baseball needs one.

ayjackson - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#224875) #

The core problem isn't the Yankees spending so much money - it's the other owners not matching them.

How do you spend the money if you don't have it? Rogers for one has plenty of money, but in the end it belongs to their shareholders and they are legally bound to act in the best interest of the shareholders of Rogers, not in the best interest of baseball fans.

Jonny German - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#224876) #

The core problem isn't the Yankees spending so much money - it's the other owners not matching them.

Let's assume that all 30 Major League owners do in fact have sufficient cash flow that they could ispend $150M per year on player salaries if they wanted to. Are you trying to tell me you think it would be economically sensible to do so in Toronto? In Miami? In Detroit? In Kansas City? Are you telling me they wouldn't generally bleed money if they tried that?

A fundamental part of the problem is that the Yankees operate in a huge market that most teams can only dream of. True, they have done a very good job of leveraging that market, but to suggest that every other team could realistically run their operation in the same manner is ridiculous.

I understad the fundamental distaste for a salary cap. But as the numbers I posted show, even a cap set at a very generous (and reflective of the market) level of "Mean + 2 standard deviations" would affect ONLY the Yankees. It is only the Yankees who are pushing the cap-less arrangement to the point of breaking the system, and it works for them because their market can support that.

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, November 03 2010 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#224887) #

I saw this: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/rockies-decline-jeff-francis-option.html and this: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/rockies-decline-option-for-miguel-olivo.html. So I was wondering if A.A. would in interested to Canadian Jeff Francis (LHP): http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/francje01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker. He had surgery on his right shoulder in approximately 2009. When you bat and throw left-handed, how does an operation on your right shoulder effect your pitching?

wacker - Thursday, November 04 2010 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#224937) #

My darkhorse stud of the future at first base is talley. I been a fan of his from day one. Granted his stats don't say this but according to the organization he had a very good year based on quality at bats. Has anyone else seen him in person besides me? Will never be labeled as bad body. 6'3" maybe 2 years ago, closer to 6'5", big frame and they want him to pack on the muscle. so catching will be only in emergency situations. First base and DH is his future

bpoz - Friday, November 05 2010 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#224979) #

I too always had hopes for J Talley. Am I wrong in feeling that too many Jay's minor league catchers are not getting enough ABs. I don't have the details but it is not always injuries. JPA got his about 450 ABs and thrived. To be honest the low ABs disappoint me and I also feel that a batting grove is harder to get into.

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