Welcome to Doctober!
Im in Philly for the month on rotation so I was watching the game at a local pub here. It was an amazing performance. I did feel a little like a father watching his daughter with her new boyfriend though...you don't know her like I do boy. Don't call him Doc you don't have the right. Great Performance Doc, including a clutch 2 out hard hit RBI single
Usually you almost expect pitchers to lose their no-hitters late in the game, they get tired, leave a pitch up and the no-no is gone. I didn't expect that to happen tonight, Doc was so in control that it looked like he was pitching to little leaguers.
Now you know, America. NOW you know.
When do you know it? Now.
What do you know? That Doc is a giant among men, nay, boys.
it's nights like this you realize how cool Twitter can be, some of my faveroites so far:
DonaldMick For 15 million baseball fans, it was the greatest postseason pitching performance of their lives. For Doc, it was Wednesday
DownGoesBrown Roy Halladay kicks so much ass that the ass grew legs and learned to kick itself out of respect.
RGriffinStar What's the big deal? Doc never gave up any post-season hits in Toronto either.
GregVince I've accepted Roy Halladay as my personal savior.
GarrettQD it's Halladay's world, we just ground out in it.
FakeClaranceGaston
Just congratulated Doc. He said, "For what? I walked a guy".
And the booby prize of the night? Orlando Cabrera:
"He and the umpire pitched a no-hitter. He gave him every pitch. ... we had no chance."
When do you know it? Now.
What do you know? That Doc is a giant among men, nay, boys.
it's nights like this you realize how cool Twitter can be, some of my faveroites so far:
DonaldMick For 15 million baseball fans, it was the greatest postseason pitching performance of their lives. For Doc, it was Wednesday
DownGoesBrown Roy Halladay kicks so much ass that the ass grew legs and learned to kick itself out of respect.
RGriffinStar What's the big deal? Doc never gave up any post-season hits in Toronto either.
GregVince I've accepted Roy Halladay as my personal savior.
GarrettQD it's Halladay's world, we just ground out in it.
FakeClaranceGaston
Just congratulated Doc. He said, "For what? I walked a guy".
And the booby prize of the night? Orlando Cabrera:
"He and the umpire pitched a no-hitter. He gave him every pitch. ... we had no chance."
That was so dominating, I would have been shocked if he lost it.
"And now I smile like a proud dad, watching his only son that made it"
"And now I smile like a proud dad, watching his only son that made it"
Halladay was working with 8 days rest. (His previous outing was Monday, Sept 27 as per http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6134/gamelog .)
Rob Neyer: "Letting Roy Halladay loose against the National League this year was like locking a hungry wolf inside a garage full of kittens."
I enjoyed every minute, but not with the intensity I wish I could have under different circumstances.
But I have to say, I love the term "Doctober".
But I have to say, I love the term "Doctober".
Fantastic job Doc. That post season debut puts him in the pantheon right there ...
Anyway else feel a twinge of regret watching this? I couldn't help but wonder how we'd have done this year with Doc at the front of the rotation, Rios leading off and Rolen manning third ...
Anyway else feel a twinge of regret watching this? I couldn't help but wonder how we'd have done this year with Doc at the front of the rotation, Rios leading off and Rolen manning third ...
I was almost shaking watching the last 3 outs. He's my favourite player and he's such a class act I'm very happy for him. Now that he's been removed from the AL East and a mediocre team it's becoming apparent just how amazing he is. I would love to see the Phillies win the World Series just so Halladay gets his ring. Go Phillies!
Anyway else feel a twinge of regret watching this?
More than a twinge.
Very happy for him. It's too bad he had to get out of Toronto for him to A) get to the playoffs b) start to get the notice he deserves as the best pitcher in baseball over the last decade. For good or for bad, performances like this are insanely massive boosts to HOF chances.
Hmm... think Halladay was really, really, really wanting to pitch in the playoffs? :)
maybe the greatest pitching performance in the history of baseball...but as a life long Jay fan I Have mixed emotions...here's a guy that orcheastrated his departure from the jasy, to a team of his choice, to a training area comfortable to him...as a baseball fan I am in awe, as a Jays fan it kills me, part of being an athlete to me is loyalty to the team and orgainization that brought you to the show, I realize its a business, but the traditionalist in me respects the Ripkens, Banks, Pucketts, etc that stay ....all the best to Halladay but can't sell me on cheering for you.
peace.....go jays..
I'd argue that Halladay was incredibly loyal to the Jays over the years - always gave it everything he had and also stayed in town at what I believe was a discount to try to allow the team to build a winner.
I agree. I have no problem with Halladay leaving, as he did show the team a lot of loyalty and gave the Jays many opportunities to build a winner around him. Comparing him to Banks is comparing apples to oranges.
As for tonight, Halladay was masterful. Incredible. Dominant. I could go on and on. I saw the last three innings of his perfect game and he was much better tonight. He had his normal control and was hitting his spots consistently, with great movement on his pitches. The hardest hit ball was a line drive by Travis Wood. There was no defensive gem necessary to save this no-hitter. It would have been better if he did it in a Jays uniform, but it was great to watch regardless.
As for tonight, Halladay was masterful. Incredible. Dominant. I could go on and on. I saw the last three innings of his perfect game and he was much better tonight. He had his normal control and was hitting his spots consistently, with great movement on his pitches. The hardest hit ball was a line drive by Travis Wood. There was no defensive gem necessary to save this no-hitter. It would have been better if he did it in a Jays uniform, but it was great to watch regardless.
Comparing him to Banks is comparing apples to oranges.
Dont get your argument..my point is that loyalty goes beyond signing extensions..and giving it everything you got should be expected....I believe its easier going to a winner, than it is trying to win with your current team...if that is your belief than you have no problem then when the Yankees sign every type A free agent on the market...
Dont get your argument..my point is that loyalty goes beyond signing extensions..and giving it everything you got should be expected....I believe its easier going to a winner, than it is trying to win with your current team...if that is your belief than you have no problem then when the Yankees sign every type A free agent on the market...
my point is that loyalty goes beyond signing extensions..
Why is it that the players are the only ones ever expected to make sacrifices in the name of loyalty? Halladay went above and beyond for the Blue Jays.
Why is it that the players are the only ones ever expected to make sacrifices in the name of loyalty? Halladay went above and beyond for the Blue Jays.
Why is it that the players are the only ones ever expected to make
sacrifices in the name of loyalty? Halladay went above and beyond for
the Blue Jays.
And fans never seem to complain about a player being disloyal when their favourite team is the one benefiting from it. If Toronto signed Carl Crawford this offseason, I highly doubt any Blue Jays fans would criticize him for being disloyal to the Rays.
And fans never seem to complain about a player being disloyal when their favourite team is the one benefiting from it. If Toronto signed Carl Crawford this offseason, I highly doubt any Blue Jays fans would criticize him for being disloyal to the Rays.
I'm so glad I got to watch that. I had goosebumps. The last inning was almost unbearable.
I wish it was in a Jays uniform but more than that I'm just glad it happened. Doc deserves everything he accomplishes.
I wish it was in a Jays uniform but more than that I'm just glad it happened. Doc deserves everything he accomplishes.
I'm one of those who requested the stop to early season Halladay start updates on this Jays site, but that was still awesome. No regrets for me, players move on, the Jays got a good return and years of below market contracts, and unlike some past Toronto sports heroes he didn't dog his way out of town.
A quick question for rules gurus - the final play, where the ball came to rest in fair ground against the discarded bat - something I don't think I have ever seen before - wasn't that an automatic out? Surely the batter is responsible for not putting his intact bat in play like that? For a second, I thought it was going to have a Dave Steib type ending.
A quick question for rules gurus - the final play, where the ball came to rest in fair ground against the discarded bat - something I don't think I have ever seen before - wasn't that an automatic out? Surely the batter is responsible for not putting his intact bat in play like that? For a second, I thought it was going to have a Dave Steib type ending.
I believe its easier going to a winner, than it is trying to win with your current team..
Easier to throw a no-hitter? Easier to go 21-10 in 33 starts?
He was just as good here, but he excelled in obscurity.
if that is your belief than you have no problem then when the Yankees sign every type A free agent on the market
Halladay was not a free agent. I don't have any problems with the Yankees trading there best prospects to get a player.
Easier to throw a no-hitter? Easier to go 21-10 in 33 starts?
He was just as good here, but he excelled in obscurity.
if that is your belief than you have no problem then when the Yankees sign every type A free agent on the market
Halladay was not a free agent. I don't have any problems with the Yankees trading there best prospects to get a player.
I was following the no-no on ESPN's play-by-play from about the sixth, but didn't want to jinx him by watching. And it's still a bit too much to watch him in a Phillies uniform.
But I am not inclined to think negative things about Halladay. He gave it everything he had, while wearing the Jays uniform, for close to a decade. And, in the end, he was traded away from the club, and not to the Yankees or Red Sox. I now hope he can do that to the Yankees sometime soon.
But I am not inclined to think negative things about Halladay. He gave it everything he had, while wearing the Jays uniform, for close to a decade. And, in the end, he was traded away from the club, and not to the Yankees or Red Sox. I now hope he can do that to the Yankees sometime soon.
At the top of my post I stated it was maybe the greatest pitching performance...you missed the boat....I stated mixed emotions....you guys can cheer for another uni...my allegiance is to the jays.......and throwing a no hitter is never easy......especially in the Al East...we have seen just as dominant performances in the AL East, and with a DH though....and Scott....wins and losses are out of the control of the pitcher...would you not agree.
wins and losses are out of the control of the pitcher
I'm not so sure about that - what's Doc's record as a Blue Jay and what was the Jays' record in games he didn't start during his tenure? It certainly isn't a great way of measuring pitcher ability, but a starting pitcher certainly has some control over the outcome of a game.
In the NL wins and losses can be within the pitchers control. Just look at last night. Complete game, no hits allowed, and he drove in and scored a run. How much more control can you have? Guess he could've hit a home run and won 1-0 thus making it 100% him :)
wins and losses are out of the control of the pitcher...would you not agree.
A pitcher's individual won-loss record is only partially in his control... I would expect that there is a reasonably strong correlation between a pitchers ability and his team's won-loss record in games he starts.
Halladay gets more decisions that pretty much any other pitcher in baseball, certainly this year (31 of 33) so I don't know if he's the poster boy for pitcher wins don't matter.
It really sucks that Doc never got a chance to do that here... I'm confident he would have. But you can't expect him to be Ripken, Puckett, Schmidt etc... as they all had playoff chances with their respective teams. The reality of competitive imbalance in MLB (particularly during Doc's time in TO when it was at its worst) is that he was never going to get to the playoffs so I have no problem with him going to Philly regardless of the circumstances.
I would think that this performance (and hopefully a few decent October starts) will put him on the HOF map if he wasn't already.
Philly looks good value with Oswalt and Hamels to follow up. Imagine if they had kept Cliff Lee (given his playoff record) instead of Joe Blanton. I still don't get that move, since it was almost equal cost for this season.
Imagine if they had kept Cliff Lee (given his playoff record) instead of Joe Blanton. I still don't get that move, since it was almost equal cost for this season.
Yeah, but would Joe Blanton have brought back the same super-wonderful incredibly awesome package of prospects that they received for Lee?
Yeah, but would Joe Blanton have brought back the same super-wonderful incredibly awesome package of prospects that they received for Lee?
The rule on the bat in fair territory -- I don't have the exact rule number, I heard it read on the radio this morning (Mike & Mike) ...
- 1. Umpire's judgment call on whetherleaving bat in play/in the way was intentional (which I think it clearly wasn't) and;
- 2. if not intentional, ball is in play whether or not it hits the bat.
I think the Phillies catcher Ruiz is getting wayyy undercredited for making what was a brilliant no-look pickup and throw to beat a speedy runner to first.
Mick, I thought that was an absolutely fantastic play.
At the time I was freaking out. Although it was only 2 or 3 seconds, that play felt it took an eternity to play out in my mind. I saw so many things going wrong - Ruiz stepping on the bat and falling, ball ricochetting off the bat and away from Ruiz/Halladay... ahh so much potential for diaster.
I haven't seen any no hitters live before. But is it a rule that they must always end on such a stressful, unconventional play? That was probably the toughest play a Phillies fielder made all game, for what it's worth...
It's funny -- spooky even -- the way those final plays of a possible no-hitter are so often bizarre/odd/messy because the ball does something it hasn't managed to do the entire game. And it's unfair the way announcers/journalists have talked about Halladay not needing any great plays behind him. That play by Ruiz was an incredible display of clear, quick-thinking and skill. It so easily could have been messed up.
I was curious whether the umpires would have called interference on the runner on the last play - he clearly was on the inside of the line and seemed to be forcing Ruiz to throw the ball around him (good thing that Howard is so tall). Thankfully, they weren't forced to make such a call.
Great respect to the umpire. Imagine all this in about 1.5 seconds ....
- Is it strike three? Wait, he hit the ball ...
- is it fair? Yes, but wait, Larson dropped the bat ...
- Was it intentional? No ....
- Did the ball hit the bat? No, but it doesn't matter, it's in play either way ...
- Wait, is Larson running too far into fair territory to obstruct the play?
- No, there's the throw ... hey, let my guy at 1B make THAT call ...
<whew!>
Doc was a great Blue Jay. And very fair to the organization, I believe. I was really sad to see him go--just like Carlos. But that was a superb performance, and I hope he gets his ring.
After looking at the replay over and over, there's absolutely no question that Larson was inside the runner's lane going to first. For the first half he was WAY inside, and he never got into it. So there's no doubt in my mind that if properly called he would have been ruled out, but I'm glad for Halladay and history that it never came to that.
on the HOF map if he wasn't already.
I think "already" is an under-assessment.
He's a slam-dunk first-ballot lock even if yesterday had been 7 8 4 4 3 5.
I think "already" is an under-assessment.
Mick, the quality numbers are there. But is there enough quantity? Related to quantity, I was going to make a lippy remark like "he's not exactly Sandy Koufax". And then I checked the numbers...
Koufax: 2324 IP, 165-87, 131 ERA+
Halladay: 2297 IP, 169-86, 136 ERA+
Maybe he is Sandy Koufax!
Mick, that was a great summation of the umpire's view of the last out. Just an outstanding play by Ruiz to keep his composure and make sure he had a clean grip of the ball before throwing, from his knees no less. He could easily have had the ball slip away, and it would have been very tough for the official scorer to rule an error thanks to the bat being an unnatural but in-play obstacle. I don't think there would have been runner interference on that play. He was in fair territory but running a reasonable path to first base. Happens all the time.
Not only was Ruiz fielding play underrated, so was Roy's hit. That turned a 1-0 game, if he goes out, into a 4-0 game. Roy's stuff was so good I don't think the score mattered, but pitching with a four-run lead is a bit easier than pitching in a 1-0 playoff opener. In one respect, Halladay's performance eclipsed Larsen's. Larsen didn't outhit the Dodgers that day, going 0-for-2.
Not only was Ruiz fielding play underrated, so was Roy's hit. That turned a 1-0 game, if he goes out, into a 4-0 game. Roy's stuff was so good I don't think the score mattered, but pitching with a four-run lead is a bit easier than pitching in a 1-0 playoff opener. In one respect, Halladay's performance eclipsed Larsen's. Larsen didn't outhit the Dodgers that day, going 0-for-2.
Doc is a little bit away from Sandy Koufax. Koufax' peak was quite a bit higher. Still, Doc is already a HoFer, and has got a shot at being an inner circle guy if he hangs around til he's 42 (as I think he will).
MG, did you ever do a Doc Hall Watch?
If not, you should! (Consider this a formal invitation if you want.)
Doc is already a HoFer
No - his career mark is 169-86. Not quite enough, although Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean made it with fewer wins. I assume Doc still needs another two or three years.
Hard to see what could stop him, but youneverknow. Kirby Puckett was a lock to get 3000 hits, Dale Murphy and Albert Belle should have cruised to 500 HRs.
So. I guess now we all know how Brewers' fans felt in 1993. It's like our little secret is out....
No - his career mark is 169-86. Not quite enough, although Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean made it with fewer wins. I assume Doc still needs another two or three years.
Hard to see what could stop him, but youneverknow. Kirby Puckett was a lock to get 3000 hits, Dale Murphy and Albert Belle should have cruised to 500 HRs.
So. I guess now we all know how Brewers' fans felt in 1993. It's like our little secret is out....
Let's see
Roy Halladay 169 W, 59 CG, 19 SHO, 2297.1 IP, 3.32 ERA
Steve Rogers 158 W, 129 CG, 37 SHO, 2837.2 IP, 3.17 ERA
Rogers got 0 Hall of Fame vote despite throwing more inning per year than Soufax.
"I needed five to eight more years and 70 more wins to really be considered," said Rogers, who played 13 seasons and recorded 158 wins. "My only regret is that every player gets the token one or two votes from writers in their area. And, for some reason, the Montreal writers felt I didn't deserve their vote."
I guess you can blame Dick Williams for that and he's in the Hall.
I think 4 seasons and 60 Wins should do it for Halladay.
Roy Halladay 169 W, 59 CG, 19 SHO, 2297.1 IP, 3.32 ERA
Steve Rogers 158 W, 129 CG, 37 SHO, 2837.2 IP, 3.17 ERA
Rogers got 0 Hall of Fame vote despite throwing more inning per year than Soufax.
"I needed five to eight more years and 70 more wins to really be considered," said Rogers, who played 13 seasons and recorded 158 wins. "My only regret is that every player gets the token one or two votes from writers in their area. And, for some reason, the Montreal writers felt I didn't deserve their vote."
I guess you can blame Dick Williams for that and he's in the Hall.
I think 4 seasons and 60 Wins should do it for Halladay.
Brandon Phillips hit the little nubber in the 9th, not Don Larson.
Given the numerous references to Don Larsen (with the "-en"!) it's [erfect;u imderstandable to confuse Phillips with Brandon Larson, who was also recently a Reds infielder.
Mags, sorry if this a dumguy question, but I don't get the Brewers reference ...
Oops, " [erfect;u" = "perfectly" ... no, really!
What great Brewer was a key member of the 1993 Blue Jays Mick?
Ah, okay. I was not thinking along those lines. Molly was great, but Doc is Great. KnowhatImean?
Wow, I didn't know that Halladay was that close in career figures to Koufax. Mix in the horrid start for both (2 of his first 4 years Koufax was sub-100 ERA+, Halladay set the record for worst ERA over 50+ innings) and there is more.
Peak ERA+ though...
Koufax: 190-188-160-159-142-136-123-107-105-101-92-83
Halladay: 185-165-159-159-152-146-145-143-126-121-115-48 (also a 245 over 14 innings his first call-up).
So Koufax beats Halladay for top 3 seasons by 5/23/1 point, tied for 4th, then it is all Halladay except for the worst season for each (48 vs 83). Basically all Koufax has is one peak season being visibly better while Halladay has 7 seasons visibly better. Plus Halladay's #1 season was over just 142 innings.
Halladay's story is getting better every day though. 2 no hitters, 3 times with 20 wins, already over the HOF level for black ink (44 vs average of 40) and over it for HOF monitor (101 vs average of 100) while in eyeshot for grey (157 vs 185) and HOF standards (39 vs 50). 7 all-star games is also a big plus.
For most similar we see a lot of guys who had early flame outs (Guidry, Saberhagen, Dean, Newcombe). By age only 2 HOF'ers but also a few who could make it (Pettitte, Mussina).
Halladay, if something horrible happened (see Puckett for an example), would probably go in. If he turned into an injury prone pitcher with mediocre results for a few years he probably wouldn't (see Guidry).
To be a lock I'd say he plays out his current contract and gets another 50-80 wins and no one doubts him going in. Mix in another no-no or two and it becomes more of a lock. Get up to 300 wins and he'll be pushing the record for closest to 100%.
Peak ERA+ though...
Koufax: 190-188-160-159-142-136-123-107-105-101-92-83
Halladay: 185-165-159-159-152-146-145-143-126-121-115-48 (also a 245 over 14 innings his first call-up).
So Koufax beats Halladay for top 3 seasons by 5/23/1 point, tied for 4th, then it is all Halladay except for the worst season for each (48 vs 83). Basically all Koufax has is one peak season being visibly better while Halladay has 7 seasons visibly better. Plus Halladay's #1 season was over just 142 innings.
Halladay's story is getting better every day though. 2 no hitters, 3 times with 20 wins, already over the HOF level for black ink (44 vs average of 40) and over it for HOF monitor (101 vs average of 100) while in eyeshot for grey (157 vs 185) and HOF standards (39 vs 50). 7 all-star games is also a big plus.
For most similar we see a lot of guys who had early flame outs (Guidry, Saberhagen, Dean, Newcombe). By age only 2 HOF'ers but also a few who could make it (Pettitte, Mussina).
Halladay, if something horrible happened (see Puckett for an example), would probably go in. If he turned into an injury prone pitcher with mediocre results for a few years he probably wouldn't (see Guidry).
To be a lock I'd say he plays out his current contract and gets another 50-80 wins and no one doubts him going in. Mix in another no-no or two and it becomes more of a lock. Get up to 300 wins and he'll be pushing the record for closest to 100%.
Mick,
Invitation accepted. Strangely enough, we made some soup stock this past weekend during a cold snap so the Hall Watch will come with a soup recipe in the old style. The Hall Watch will happen after the World Series is in the books.
Invitation accepted. Strangely enough, we made some soup stock this past weekend during a cold snap so the Hall Watch will come with a soup recipe in the old style. The Hall Watch will happen after the World Series is in the books.
If Halladay has a long run with the Phillies i.e 100 plus wins/playoffs/WS ring - If he enters the Hall, is it
as a Blue Jay or Phillie?
scottt's comment got me interested in looking at the career of Steve Rogers, who was certainly a fine pitcher if obviously not in Halladay's class - and Rogers had his last good year at age 33. Doc looks ready to carry on a while longer.
Anyway - I didn't realize Rogers was a member of the 1971 Winnipeg Whips. I was living in Winnipeg at the time, I saw the Whips play quite a few times in 1970-71, but the only players I remember were a couple who eventually made their way to the Expos - Ernie McAnally, Boots Day, and Balor Moore (who eventually made it to the Jays.) I'm looking down the Whips' roster and there's Jimy Williams, Rich Hacker, and John Olerud. (As well as number of major league vets on their way down - Adolfo Phillips, Jim Gosger, Fred Whitfield. And Mike Marshall stopped off as well, part of his tour of every professional team...)
Anyway - I didn't realize Rogers was a member of the 1971 Winnipeg Whips. I was living in Winnipeg at the time, I saw the Whips play quite a few times in 1970-71, but the only players I remember were a couple who eventually made their way to the Expos - Ernie McAnally, Boots Day, and Balor Moore (who eventually made it to the Jays.) I'm looking down the Whips' roster and there's Jimy Williams, Rich Hacker, and John Olerud. (As well as number of major league vets on their way down - Adolfo Phillips, Jim Gosger, Fred Whitfield. And Mike Marshall stopped off as well, part of his tour of every professional team...)
No - his career mark is 169-86.
I disagree. I think if Halladay suffered a career ending injury today, he would make the Hall of Fame. It's an unknowable proposition, but I think voters would recognize that he was the best pitcher of the decade (and not in the way Jack Morris is "the best pitcher of the 1980s") and would eventually receive recognition.
I think the fact voters are more willing to recognize the problems with wins and losses for pitchers would apply equally to Hall of Fame voting and they'd look beyond Doc's won-loss record and at his body of work compared to his peers.
I should have posted either a longer or shorter excerpt of Magpie's post. Just to clarify, I have no disagreements over what Halladay's career record is.
I saw the Whips play quite a few times in 1970-71, but the only players
I remember were a couple who eventually made their way to the Expos -
Ernie McAnally, Boots Day, and Balor Moore (who eventually made it to
the Jays.) I'm looking down the Whips' roster and there's Jimy Williams,
Rich Hacker, and John Olerud.
John Olerud? Are you sure, Magpie? In 1971? In the deep minors?
John Olerud? Are you sure, Magpie? In 1971? In the deep minors?
...and, of course, a life-saver.
The Winnipeg Whips, eh? In 1971, that might have had more of a Whipper Billy Watson feel than Rough Trade. Innocence will pull me through.
The Winnipeg Whips, eh? In 1971, that might have had more of a Whipper Billy Watson feel than Rough Trade. Innocence will pull me through.
I really don't want to speculate about injuries. These are happy times.
Halladay will likely get more recognition for his time with the Phillies than his record as a Jays. That gives him a bitter sweet edge.
Rogers is infamous for being on the receiving hand of a Rick Monday homerun. He was pitching in relief on 2 days rest.
In 77, Rogers started 40 games, completed 17 and threw 301.2 innings. He wasn't even an all-star as his era was a huge 3.10.
Times sure have changed.
Halladay will likely get more recognition for his time with the Phillies than his record as a Jays. That gives him a bitter sweet edge.
Rogers is infamous for being on the receiving hand of a Rick Monday homerun. He was pitching in relief on 2 days rest.
In 77, Rogers started 40 games, completed 17 and threw 301.2 innings. He wasn't even an all-star as his era was a huge 3.10.
Times sure have changed.
Like stealing candy from a baby, wasn't it, you sly dog? Set me up just dandy.
I do think that is one of the increasing number of bits of information that have sifted out of my memory in recent times; but I'm glad to be reminded of it. I had no idea about the Winnipeg Whips, of course. Did they have a dominatrix as mascot?
I do think that is one of the increasing number of bits of information that have sifted out of my memory in recent times; but I'm glad to be reminded of it. I had no idea about the Winnipeg Whips, of course. Did they have a dominatrix as mascot?
In the playoffs thread on Wednesday, there was some comment (and complaints) about Jeff Blair on the FAN (I didn't know he had a show there now), going on about how everyone should pull for Joey Votto instead of Halladay. I put it down to the practice of trying to be provocative to build up calls and listeners, but still found it a bit irritating. "Nationality trumps all" or something like that. Does that mean if Stephen Harper was playing third for the Reds, I'd have to cheer for them.? Etobicoke boy? Rob Ford behind the plate certainly wouldn't get me rooting for Cincinnati. But the worst was Blair's take that his view was the only correct one.
Today, he downplayed it, saying of course he was wrong.
I only listened to a bit of each day's show, but what really bugged me today was the last call I heard.
I normally can't take too much of call-ins, but this call caught my attention because it was from a woman, something rare enough on these shows. She recounted her experience walking home on Wednesday, then getting a phone call from someone about Halladay's no-hitter in progress, and she got home to catch the 9th. She said she'd been a baseball fan all her life, and remembered walking home from school when she was young listening to Don Larsen's perfect game!
Shades of Dewey's fascinating recollection of Bobby Thomson's homer.
So what did Blair do with the opportunity? He talked, he blathered about himself. Two things he would love to have seen: DiMaggio's streak and Larsen's game. He saw two perfect games, etc etc. The witness to history on the phone couldn't get in one more word, and then the sound of the traffic report chopper cut it all off.
I understand many callers to these shows aren't interesting, and a host has to take over and fade them out, but this one had real promise.
Not impressed so far.
If The FAN was going to hire a Globe & Mail writer, I would have preferred Stephen Brunt whom I find very listenable, intelligent, with a good sense of humour.
Today, he downplayed it, saying of course he was wrong.
I only listened to a bit of each day's show, but what really bugged me today was the last call I heard.
I normally can't take too much of call-ins, but this call caught my attention because it was from a woman, something rare enough on these shows. She recounted her experience walking home on Wednesday, then getting a phone call from someone about Halladay's no-hitter in progress, and she got home to catch the 9th. She said she'd been a baseball fan all her life, and remembered walking home from school when she was young listening to Don Larsen's perfect game!
Shades of Dewey's fascinating recollection of Bobby Thomson's homer.
So what did Blair do with the opportunity? He talked, he blathered about himself. Two things he would love to have seen: DiMaggio's streak and Larsen's game. He saw two perfect games, etc etc. The witness to history on the phone couldn't get in one more word, and then the sound of the traffic report chopper cut it all off.
I understand many callers to these shows aren't interesting, and a host has to take over and fade them out, but this one had real promise.
Not impressed so far.
If The FAN was going to hire a Globe & Mail writer, I would have preferred Stephen Brunt whom I find very listenable, intelligent, with a good sense of humour.
So Halladay can hand deliver postseason victories and probably a World Series.
The Jays should have demanded the entire Phillies minor league system and all draft picks for the next 50 years in exchange for him.
The Jays should have demanded the entire Phillies minor league system and all draft picks for the next 50 years in exchange for him.
I don't want to continue, but after a moment I realized why I am bothered, and its as a complete emotional jay fan....after watching a replay and seeing the Phillies fans reaction...I thought that should be Toronto fans...I wanted to be cheering Halladay in a Jays uniform, I don't know if it is karma for the Carter bomb in 93, but seeing Halladay in a Phillie uni..is a source of denial...I can't accept it, and am bothered by the apparent inequities in baseball, and the desire of players to market themselves instead of sticking to an ideal..but will after this move on to the future of the Jays.
and am bothered by the apparent inequities in baseball, and the desire of players to market themselves instead of sticking to an ideal
We can all assume, then, that you are still working for the first company that ever employed you and that you intend to stay with that company until you retire? You know, so you can stick to an ideal?
Chuck ...I have stayed with my employer for tens years as a social worker, locked in to the same pay scale, (despite being offered other jobs in the private sector) for the past 5 years so yeah I have stuck to an ideal
I don't agree at all with your perspective or definition of loyalty but will concede that you are at least consistent about it. This concession will get revoked the moment you change jobs!
The FAN has become pretty much unlistenable imo. I still have it on my presets, but might change it to something else until baseball season, then listen only to the Jays games.
I have no interest in people who yell out about how smart they are, how they know best, etc. - too much like US talk radio. Probably why I enjoy 1010 more (Moore & Tory that is, don't like Jerry Agar & Jim Richards who luckily are on during the day while I'm at work). 640 can be fun sometimes, but in limited doses (they get into the 'I know best' stuff a lot). 680 for a quick news/traffic update. Sometimes 610 & 570 are OK.
Any other good stations in Toronto for talk? I have a built in MP3 player so music is not an issue, but talk radio can be fun when they actually debate issues or talk about interesting things like that woman sounds like she was about to.
I have no interest in people who yell out about how smart they are, how they know best, etc. - too much like US talk radio. Probably why I enjoy 1010 more (Moore & Tory that is, don't like Jerry Agar & Jim Richards who luckily are on during the day while I'm at work). 640 can be fun sometimes, but in limited doses (they get into the 'I know best' stuff a lot). 680 for a quick news/traffic update. Sometimes 610 & 570 are OK.
Any other good stations in Toronto for talk? I have a built in MP3 player so music is not an issue, but talk radio can be fun when they actually debate issues or talk about interesting things like that woman sounds like she was about to.
The only radio stations I listen to are KEXP.org (out of Seattle), and occasionally CBC 1 & 2, and Jazz FM. Too many commercial talk and music stations say/play the same things over again to keep my interest. And sports radio is among the worst offenders of all - I had a choice of 3 when I lived in Chicago, and the only time I could bear to listen to any of them was during NFL Sundays, when I was in my car. But hey, the production costs are low...
The FAN has gone more and more to the call-in segments in which I have very little interest. To that they've added more controversial/belligerant hosts recently. I'm even less interested. When they have guests then I'm far more compelled to listen. McCown is so popular because he gets the best guests.
Peak ERA+ though...
Koufax: 190-188-160-159-142-136-123-107-105-101-92-83
Halladay: 185-165-159-159-152-146-145-143-126-121-115-48 (also a 245 over 14 innings his first call-up).
Let's throw another pitcher into the mix..
Mystery: 173-146-142-140-138-134-130-124-117-111-109-100-96-99-82-71
Ok, ERA+ maybe 10-15 off Halladay/Koufax.
Roy Halladay 169 W, 59 CG, 19 SHO, 2297.1 IP, 3.32 ERA
Steve Rogers 158 W, 129 CG, 37 SHO, 2837.2 IP, 3.17 ERA
Mystery Man 176 W, 103 CG, 30 SHO, 2895.1 IP, 3.44 ERA
Except for the slightly higher ERA (mostly due to one season with a major injury and a few mediocre seasons after 35), seems right at home here..
Let's not forget 7 AS selections, 1 no-hitter, 2 or 3 almost no-hitters, etc..
And what did he get for HOF votes? 7 votes, 1.4%.
By now, I'm sure everyone realizes I'm talking about one of my all-time favorite pitchers, Dave Stieb.
Am I going to say that Stieb was BETTER than Halladay? No way - not based on those stats. But, I AM going to say, you can't argue that Halladay has had a WAY, WAY, WAY better career at this point (the way you COULD about, say, AJ Burnett compared to Halladay). He's had a better career, definitely. Maybe 10-20% better. And he has lots of steam left, apparently, etc.. (and no, I have NOTHING against Doc either as a player or a person)
However, when you look at the paltry 7 votes Stieb got, I would say it's NOT a lock that Halladay gets into the HOF if he decided to retire today. Because he's played most of his career for Toronto. That was the same thing people said about Stieb: playing in Toronto basically his whole career hurt his chances significantly.
Do I think Stieb belongs in the Hall? I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, although I think he fell just a little short. Maybe 1 more great season (ERA+ of 160+) and I think he would have a MUCH stronger case.
I'm just saying - up to this point, Halladay's been better, but not THAT much better that he gets over 50% of the vote when Stieb got 1.4% - that's if there's any justice in HOF voting.
OTOH, Halladay playing in a prime baseball environment (large US city, not too far from New York) can only help his chances. If he had pitched his entire career for the Phillies or Yankees and put up the same numbers, I think he WOULD already be a lock for the HOF. C'est la vie.
Koufax: 190-188-160-159-142-136-123-107-105-101-92-83
Halladay: 185-165-159-159-152-146-145-143-126-121-115-48 (also a 245 over 14 innings his first call-up).
Let's throw another pitcher into the mix..
Mystery: 173-146-142-140-138-134-130-124-117-111-109-100-96-99-82-71
Ok, ERA+ maybe 10-15 off Halladay/Koufax.
Roy Halladay 169 W, 59 CG, 19 SHO, 2297.1 IP, 3.32 ERA
Steve Rogers 158 W, 129 CG, 37 SHO, 2837.2 IP, 3.17 ERA
Mystery Man 176 W, 103 CG, 30 SHO, 2895.1 IP, 3.44 ERA
Except for the slightly higher ERA (mostly due to one season with a major injury and a few mediocre seasons after 35), seems right at home here..
Let's not forget 7 AS selections, 1 no-hitter, 2 or 3 almost no-hitters, etc..
And what did he get for HOF votes? 7 votes, 1.4%.
By now, I'm sure everyone realizes I'm talking about one of my all-time favorite pitchers, Dave Stieb.
Am I going to say that Stieb was BETTER than Halladay? No way - not based on those stats. But, I AM going to say, you can't argue that Halladay has had a WAY, WAY, WAY better career at this point (the way you COULD about, say, AJ Burnett compared to Halladay). He's had a better career, definitely. Maybe 10-20% better. And he has lots of steam left, apparently, etc.. (and no, I have NOTHING against Doc either as a player or a person)
However, when you look at the paltry 7 votes Stieb got, I would say it's NOT a lock that Halladay gets into the HOF if he decided to retire today. Because he's played most of his career for Toronto. That was the same thing people said about Stieb: playing in Toronto basically his whole career hurt his chances significantly.
Do I think Stieb belongs in the Hall? I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, although I think he fell just a little short. Maybe 1 more great season (ERA+ of 160+) and I think he would have a MUCH stronger case.
I'm just saying - up to this point, Halladay's been better, but not THAT much better that he gets over 50% of the vote when Stieb got 1.4% - that's if there's any justice in HOF voting.
OTOH, Halladay playing in a prime baseball environment (large US city, not too far from New York) can only help his chances. If he had pitched his entire career for the Phillies or Yankees and put up the same numbers, I think he WOULD already be a lock for the HOF. C'est la vie.
The Fan puts a lot of their interviews in their OnDemand section. You can listen there or download for your MP3 player. You avoid the call-ins and the maple leaf update every 15 minutes .
Stieb is in the Hall of Merit. As for his lack of support for the Hall of Fame, the perception was that Morris was the best starter of the 1980s and hence Morris garnered more support. The perception is that Halladay was the best pitcher of the aughts (although there were a few years when Johan Santana was better).
Halladay would get the support of both the traditional and sabermetric camps. More on this in about 6 weeks.
Halladay would get the support of both the traditional and sabermetric camps. More on this in about 6 weeks.
I don't know if it is karma for the Carter bomb in 93
Think of it as karma for Paul Molitor signing with the Blue Jays and winning a WS ring because the Brewers couldn't keep him. But I say - good for Molitor, good for Halladay. I was a baseball fan before they played, I get to be a fan afterwards. They've only got a little window of opportunity. hard to get on someone's case for lack of loyalty to a team when he passed up a chance to make millions of dollars to stay with them.
Pause...
Millions of dollars? Millions of dollars? Holy crap! Millions of dollars?
Think of it as karma for Paul Molitor signing with the Blue Jays and winning a WS ring because the Brewers couldn't keep him. But I say - good for Molitor, good for Halladay. I was a baseball fan before they played, I get to be a fan afterwards. They've only got a little window of opportunity. hard to get on someone's case for lack of loyalty to a team when he passed up a chance to make millions of dollars to stay with them.
Pause...
Millions of dollars? Millions of dollars? Holy crap! Millions of dollars?
I think Halladay is where Stieb was when his arm fell off. About the same age, about 170 wins, they've established their Peak Value case, and now they just need to pile up some counting numbers. Neither was as awesome as Koufax in the 1960s or Dean in the 1930s, so they need to clear 200 wins. The way Schilling and Smoltz did. As opposed to the way Guidry didn't.
If [Halladay] had pitched his entire career for the Phillies or Yankees and put up the same numbers, I think he WOULD already be a lock for the HOF.
Again, Ron Guidry. Who retired with 170 wins, three 20 win seasons, 2 WS rings, a Cy Young, one of the greatest pitcher seasons ever.... and spent his entire career with the Yankees. The counting numbers really, really matter to HoF voters.
Again, Ron Guidry. Who retired with 170 wins, three 20 win seasons, 2 WS rings, a Cy Young, one of the greatest pitcher seasons ever.... and spent his entire career with the Yankees. The counting numbers really, really matter to HoF voters.
Guidry's best years were 1975-1985. He was not viewed as the best pitcher of the time, and nor should he have been. His career ERA+ at the time was 122; Halladay's career ERA+ is now 136.
Dizzy Dean was not better than Doc, whether you look at peak, prime or career. More on that in six weeks, too.
Dizzy Dean was not better than Doc, whether you look at peak, prime or career. More on that in six weeks, too.
I've marked 6 weeks on my calender. Can't wait :)
Again, Ron Guidry. Who retired with 170 wins, three 20 win seasons, 2 WS rings, a Cy Young, one of the greatest pitcher seasons ever.... and spent his entire career with the Yankees. The counting numbers really, really matter to HoF voters.
Guidry isn't a good comparison to Halladay. He had three season with an ERA+ of at least 140. He finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting 3 times. Halladay has 8 and 6*, respectively. He's led his league in IP 4 times and shutouts 4 times and so on. He has been a much more dominant pitcher than Guidry.
I don't see any reason why a shift in voting patterns for the major awards would not similarly be accompanied by a shift, to some degree, in voting for the Hall of Fame. Some counting stats are necessary, but my intuition is that Halladay's already reached the stage whereby voters would (probably not on the first or second ballot, but eventually) recognize his performance. While he may have been hindered to some degree by playing in Toronto, unlike Stieb, Halladay has been able to demonstrate his excellence for a large market US team in both the regular season and playoffs.
* Assuming there is no dramatic surprise in the 2010 NL Cy Young balloting. And that doesn't count the 2004 season, where he was clearly the best starter in the AL until an injury ended his season.
More on that [Diz and Doc] in six weeks, too.
Cool. We'll get into it then!
Something about Dizzy (and Lefty Grove.) As everyone knows, the 1930s were one of the great periods for hitters in the game. That's not that strange - there've been other great times for hitters. What's always struck me about the 1930s are the very low strikeout totals, even after the Ruth Revolution. Dizzy Dean, who never pitched less than 286 IP in his five full seasons, never struck out 200 batters in a season. He still led the NL four straight years - he was the league's dominant power pitcher. Lefty Grove led the AL seven years in a row, and cleared 200 Ks just once (209 in 1930.)
This is largely on the hitters - modern hitters have a completely different approach. They're all holding the bat down at the end and swinging as hard as they can. NL batters struck out in 7.56% of the plate appearances in 1933; they struck out in 19.32 of their plate appearances this year. AL batters struck out in 8.45% of their plate appearances in 1930, and in 17.54% this past season. It's an enormous change in how the game has played, and has huge implications for how we think about, and for what is required from, pitchers....
Cool. We'll get into it then!
Something about Dizzy (and Lefty Grove.) As everyone knows, the 1930s were one of the great periods for hitters in the game. That's not that strange - there've been other great times for hitters. What's always struck me about the 1930s are the very low strikeout totals, even after the Ruth Revolution. Dizzy Dean, who never pitched less than 286 IP in his five full seasons, never struck out 200 batters in a season. He still led the NL four straight years - he was the league's dominant power pitcher. Lefty Grove led the AL seven years in a row, and cleared 200 Ks just once (209 in 1930.)
This is largely on the hitters - modern hitters have a completely different approach. They're all holding the bat down at the end and swinging as hard as they can. NL batters struck out in 7.56% of the plate appearances in 1933; they struck out in 19.32 of their plate appearances this year. AL batters struck out in 8.45% of their plate appearances in 1930, and in 17.54% this past season. It's an enormous change in how the game has played, and has huge implications for how we think about, and for what is required from, pitchers....
This will make it MUCH easier for Phils fans to take, when they're watching that Drabek guy pitch in Toronto 2-3 years from now...
I have no regrets, no bittersweet taste. I'm just very happy for Roy, and cheering for his team to win it all.