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When I was much younger, my then-favorite team, the Cincinnati Reds mad a trade to acquire a starting pitcher you may have heard of, guy named Seaver. And for several years, every time he took the hill, I was confident (even convinced) the Reds were bound to win that day. He was the Jays' Roy Halladay, c. 2009 and before. He was, put another way, the anti-Mike LaCoss.

Now to be fair, LaCoss was not a bad pitcher; he won 98 games (and lost 103) over 14 years, cracked double-digit wins in a season four times, even made the 1979 All-Star team, ahead of his teammate Seaver. But LaCoss was a guy, in my young teen brain, who every time he took to the mound, disaster awaited. Not sure why I thought that, exactly, but it seemed inevitable.

So today's Question of the Day: What Blue Jays fit this profile in your personal history? Don't stick to pitchers, though they're probably the easiest to identify ... let's see if we can build an entire lineup, or even a full roster ... who are The Scary Jays?



 

QOTD: The Anti-Inspirationals | 42 comments | Create New Account
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Matthew E - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#222909) #
I don't know if I ever saw Carlos Almanzar pitch without giving up about three runs in less than an inning.

And then there's Kenny Williams.

Kelekin - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#222910) #

In recent years, I'd have to say Towers or Burnett.  Burnett was the type of guy who was so dominant at times but never was quite there, and even though he wins more than he loses, he had that type of attitude that was worrisome.  One game could be a shutout, but the next one would be disastrous. 

I'd also throw Kelvim Escobar in that group.

mathesond - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#222916) #
Brian Tallett would seem to be an obvious one, but the one that sticks with me the most is John Candelaria. Lineup-wise, I think I'd have to go with Charlie O'Brien, or Manny Lee in the early part of his career
clark - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#222917) #

My parallel to your Seaver/LaCoss would be Stieb/Leal.

Stieb seemed invincible while Luis Leal always seemed to get hammered.  Looking at his stats, like LaCoss, he actually wasn't all that bad.  Over a 3 year stretch he won 38 games and twice kept his ERA under 4.  As a great big Venezuelan righty, I would have assumed he was a power pitcher but this wasn't the case.  He walked fewer than 3/9IP and had @5k/9IP.

Cheers to you Luis Leal!

garth - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#222918) #

One main name screams out at me

Terry Adams

Man the bullpen was horrible when he was here.  He makes Kevin Greg look like Mariano Rivera

Mike Green - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#222919) #
Congratulations to Jose Bautista on his 50th homer.  It is too bad that Labatt's is not around Blue Jay land to enjoy the significant promotional opportunities from Bautista's achievement.
John Northey - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#222920) #
Hmmm... Juan Guzman was a lot like that for me due to the fact he was so hot and cold - you never were certain which one you'd get. But there was still hope there.

Kelvim Escobar was definitely a 'yikes' guy who you never felt safe with. For hitters...hmmm...Manny Lee fit that description as I never liked seeing him in the lineup outside of late in blowouts. Any closer not named "Henke" or "Ward" also fit that description.
TamRa - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#222922) #
if this is basically a frustration index, then my team is made up like this (acknowledging that i wasn't a Jays fan until the mid-80's

SP
E.L. (who shall not be named)
R. Person (never fogave him for being the return for Olerud)
J. Hamilton (because i always WANTED to like him and he wouldn't let me)
J. Towers (won't he be a unanomous choice?)
S. Parris (Towers before Towers)
(on the whole i've liked the vast majority of our starters)


BP
M. Bautista (coulda went in the rotation too)
R. Meyers (NOTHING more infureating than the quality guy who inexplicably goes off the cliff when he joins your team)
S. Schoenewies
P. Borbon
Ten-Run Sturtze (again, has to make everyone's team, no?)

line-up-

C: Huckaby
1B: Upshaw (Not a BAD guy but the one person to man the position a long time i just never got into)
2B: C. Garcia (automatic, eh?)
3B: Hinske (took too much grief but still disappointed me too often)
SS: Gonzo 1.0 (just because the expectations were so VERY high)
LF: Brumfield
CF: Nixon
RF: Merced (can you tell why I'm not a fan of the Ash era?)
DH: Hillenbrand

now to break out the brain soap and try to wash these memories away...



lexomatic - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#222927) #
wow, Will,
i find you team interesting. some of those players i was never really so much frustrated by, as wondering why they played so much (get back to the bench, Brumfield)Nixon I had no problems with really. from my memory he did exactly what i expected for the Jays. After checking, he performed along his career averages while here - 1 year better than, 1 a bit worse. He was also almost 40.
Gonzo 1.0 was terribly frustrating, in that he never seemed to get it... like a lesser Dunston?
generally the Ash years were pretty frustrating
. I never expected anything from Huckaby, Phelps I hoped would be a bit of a hitter. He probably could've benefitted from going back to catching and learning to play a passable corner of.
I found Sprague to be frustrating in the combo of his mediocrity and stranglehold on 3b
The Ash years were terrible for pitching disappointments weren't they? E.L., Hamilton, Hanson... i dont' want to think about it.


also who knew Lewis was done for the year?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ar35qKwheRHVdtrJ9eGrDqCpu7YF?slug=ap-bluejays-lewis

TamRa - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#222930) #
Well yeah, almost all those guys had an element of "why are they even here?!" type frustration, as opposed to expecting more from them than they delivered.
often, i just didn't like the guy.

Also, to be fair, Upshaw really doesn't deserve to be in this company...i'm struggling to remember a 1B who played at least simi regularly who bothered me as much as the other guys on this team.

but no, it's not like I expected a dozen homers from Nixon and he failed me - i just never liked the way that team was put together.


Chuck - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#222931) #

but the one that sticks with me the most is John Candelaria

20 innings from 20 years ago are stuck in your craw good!

For me, Candelaria represents the face of LOOGYdom. He may well not have been the first to average less than an inning per outing, but when Lasorda had him on the roster for a whole season (I believe) and pitched him 50 times for just 25 innings -- just 0.5 innings per outing -- you got the sense that a whole bunch of old, crappy lefthanded dudes were going to get the opportunity to stick around well past their best before dates.

Mike Green - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#222933) #
LF: Brumfield

It's generally not a good idea to get under the skin of a Roster member. ;-)
Dewey - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#222940) #
Well, I suppose most of you are too young; but Joey McLaughlin sits at the very top of any such list I can conjure up.

Just typing that has got me shaking.

bpoz - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#222942) #
Joey McLauglin and that whole bullpen with Roy Lee Jackson etc.. are my nomination.
We traded with Atlanta for him, I cannot remember the details. He was 23 years old with some good stuff, Knuckle curve or something.
I know that it was only 2009, but BJ Ryan was finished but he wanted "his right to close". This "right to close" is a concept that seems to exist in baseball and it scares me. I don't want a failing closer in 2011 that feels entitled to this right.
jmoney - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#222944) #
DH: Hillenbrand - As much as this guy was a jackass. Another guy who I'd describe as the "poorman's hillenbrand" was worse. Brad Fullmer. Seemed he always struck out on pitches in the dirt when there was men on base.

Congrats to Bautista on a great season. Hope he gets some MVP votes. (Didn't say he should win) and to Ichiro on the model of awesome consistency.
brent - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#222945) #

Bruce Chen

Joey Lawrence

post broken hand Overbay

Kevin Millar

Gord Ash

jerjapan - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#222946) #
He's already gotten lots of 'love' in this thread, but nothing made me head for another beer faster than a plate appearance for three-pitch Manny Lee.
CeeBee - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#222947) #
A few mostly from the early days.
Jesse Jefferson (sp), Luis Gomez (ss), Sandy Martinez (c), Carlos Garcia(2b) and a more recent reason to head for the fridge, Brian Tallet. There are lots of other relievers that could be included.... Tam, Creek, Frasor, Frascatore, Politte etc. but maybe Mr's Henke and Ward spoiled me.
JohnL - Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#222948) #
Manny Lee

Although when I think of Manny Lee, there are two things I remember:
 - When the Jays went down in flames at the end of '87, they mustered only 3 extra-base hits in that last weekend in Detroit: a double, a triple and a single -- all by Manny
 - the wild bounce over his head that gave Stieb his first almost-no-hitter
electric carrot - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#222951) #
No Faith Pitchers:

Mark Hendrickson.  Sorry Mark, just never had any faith that it was going to work out.  Just pencil in the L.

Joey Mclaughlin of course.  (sorry Joey)

Dennis Lamp.  Yeeesshh.

Bill Caudill. 

Jim Gott









Manhattan Mike - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 01:54 AM EDT (#222952) #

post broken hand Overbay

Lyle is hitting .276/.362/.497 since late May and is 2nd on the team in OBP this season for the 2nd year in a row after leading the team in OBP in 2008. I will never understand the contempt Jays fans have had over the years for such a solid player.

TamRa - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 02:45 AM EDT (#222953) #
^
^
^
This

scottt - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 07:13 AM EDT (#222955) #
.276/.362/.497 is not bad, for a catcher or a shortstop.

.248/.334/.437 is the actual line for the year.

Ignoring the numbers, I do feel dread when he comes to the plate with runners on base. 
JustinD - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#222958) #
Where's the love, or nonlove that is, for Raul Mondesi? I remember thinking we got too much getting Scott Wiggins for him. That's how bad I wanted him gone.
mathesond - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#222959) #
but the one that sticks with me the most is John Candelaria

20 innings from 20 years ago are stuck in your craw good!


Funny, for some reason I thought he was a starter for them in the 2nd half of 1990. Maybe I was thinking of Tom Candiotti - a bbref check tells me he had a pretty solid ERA in Toronto (1991, though), but a losing record - guess they just didn't hit for him
JohnL - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#222964) #

Non-player shudders:

Interbrew
Jimy Williams
Warren Sawkiw
and of course, how about that Fergy Olver?

dexfarkin - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#222968) #

For me, the two anti-Jays have always been Manny Lee and Todd Stottlemyre, who both had decent enough careers.

With Lee, he seemed to be such a butcher in the field (although always mentally getting compared to Fernandez and others) that when the flukey hop popped Stieb's final out for the no-hit over his head, I remained convinced for years that Lee had just completely mis-played the ball. He didn't have much of a bat, which is true, and his defense was about average, but for whatever reason, he wore the 'rally killer' and 'automatic error' label in my head for a decade at least.

As for Stottlemyre, he was Burnett before there was Burnett. Was a hard tosser for the time, with a nasty slider and a splitter. But with the game on the line, you just expected him to try and throw a flat curve over the heart of the plate for a homerun. Or lose his composure and just try to blow guys back with the cutter in the middle of the zone to get crushed. Again, going back he actually was a pretty good pitcher, but surrounded by the talent of that team to a young fan, he looked like the immature bonus baby with the great arm and nickel head.

 

zeppelinkm - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#222972) #

Scott said: ".276/.362/.497 is not bad, for a catcher or a shortstop. "

Is not bad? For just a catcher or a SS?  You wouldn't be happy with a .859 OPS from your.. 3B? CF? RF? LF? 2B? oh heck, or your 1B either as a full season line? Really? If that's "not bad" for a SS or a C, just what are your expectations for those positions? Heck, what are your expectations for OPS from other positions?


Back to the question at hand. I know he had at least one super clutch hit in Jays history, but he will always be remembered as "Inning Ender Ed" (Sprague) to me. His ability to hit that ground ball with 1 out and a runner on 1st was incredible. I have no idea if facts back this up, but he had that nickname in our household.



MatO - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#222973) #
Alfredo Griffin.  He co-wins ROY and then turns out to be an absolutely terrible hitter.  I used to call him "The Toaster".  Whenever the team needed a hit he'd pop-up.
JohnL - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#222974) #

[Ed Sprague] will always be remembered as "Inning Ender Ed" (Sprague) to me

Besides his big WS home run, I also remember a very big non-inning ending at bat by Sprague.  Bottom of the 8th, Game 6, World Series. 2 on, 2 out, Jays down by a run, Sprague batting 8th came to bat and walked.

That was big, because if Sprague had ended the inning, Borders would have led off the 9th. Instead, courtesy of Borders making the final out of the 8th, The Rickey (aka, "best leadoff hitter in history") led off, and that worked out pretty well.

 

 

 

Mick Doherty - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#222976) #

I have no idea if facts back this up

Great point, zep. And that's why I love threads like this one ... it's all very personal, with lots of just flat-out wrong stuff in it, including my own original dismissal of LaCoss. Baseball is a very personal sport though, so that works ...

TamRa - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#222977) #
MONDESI!!!

Oh man yes. I never got over ending up with him for Green - right up there with person in never having a chance with me.

I thought of including Stottlymere and didn't (mainly because i can never spell his name!) but yes, he was always massively frustrating to me.


vw_fan17 - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#222982) #
.276/.362/.497 is not bad, for a catcher or a shortstop.

You mean in the PCL, right? In MLB, only 31 players TOTAL have an OPS of 859 or better.. Including exactly one C (Mauer) and one SS (Tulowitzki).

If I understand you correct, you expect first-overall draft choices and historically great performances at each and every position?
92-93 - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#222988) #
".276/.362/.497 is not bad, for a catcher or a shortstop.

.248/.334/.437 is the actual line for the year."

Your first sentence is ludicrous - that's an excellent line for any position, including DH.

In regards to his season line, I just want to point out some other players who I'm sure Jays fans believe represent an overall upgrade to Lyle Overbay, along with their 2010 #s :

Carlos Pena .201/.330/.415
Derrek Lee .257/.341/.417
Lance Berkman .256/.374/.427

So the first 2 guys are having inferior seasons and Berkman will be 35 coming off 2 injury riddled seasons. So yeah, while I'd love to see the Jays trade for Prince Fielder or sign Adam Dunn (or even Paul Konerko on a 1 year deal), I would have no problem with a Lyle Overbay return. The last thing I want to see is the Jays overpay for a more sexy veteran name whose overall game once you bring in the defensive side really isn't worth that much more than Overbay's, if it is at all.
christaylor - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#222989) #
The reverse is true with me, the circumstances of the trade were such that despite me being a huge fan of Green at the time, I was glad to see him go and happy to see Mondesi in return.

Mondesi, in the end didn't meet expectations, had two OK seasons as a Jay and was an exciting player to watch -- his steal of home was quite a sight. He did have an awful contract, which, like Wells he is hardly to blame for...
scottt - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#222993) #
Your first sentence is ludicrous - that's an excellent line for any position, including DH.

Over 3 years, yes. Over 3 months, not so much.

Objectively, how should we rate Overbay? It's something Elias has to address because he's a free agent and the answer is not pretty.
As a 1B, he currently ranks between Jorge Cantu and Daric Barton. So while Teixeira and Youkilis would have been type A, Pena is type B and Overbay is something like a C-, unworthy of any compensation.

What was wrong with him in April anyway? Too much stress from playing in a contract year?
bpoz - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#223011) #
I loved Fergie Olver !!!

John L, I respectfully ask what you did not like about him. I am curious about your reasons.

I saw all those games in the 80's and I too did not care for Fergie Olver because he had nothing of interest to say. His nice smile and "How about them Jays" was about 90% of his content.

SO since he said nothing IMO he was not lying and hustling the Jays fans. This is the reason I have so much respect for Fergie.

I was a raw baseball fan (since 1977) who lacked a lot of knowledge about the game. IMO there were a lot of Toronto fans that also were raw. Possibly new immigrants becoming new fans because the Jays were the talk of the town due to their winning ways.

IMO the media experts then and today are wrong quite often. IMO even some baseball GMs make big mistakes. So MY conclusion is that everyone has the right to talk but nobody gets it right that often but they sound good, are thought provoking and very interesting to listen to. Fergie, I don't believe played this game of opinions.

Tony Kubek had ambition and made himself a nice career in the business. Those of us who remember the infamous Joey Mc Laughlin should also know that he had lots of help in blowing leads. What was that horrible stretch, 3,4 or 5 in a row? Anyhow in Spring Training maybe 1982 we had excess bullpen arms, 10 man staff and 4 SPs. I watched the ST games on CTV and heard & believed how our excess of quality bullpen arms were going to be traded for help in other areas. None of those guys got traded out of ST. In the off season any reliever that did well like V Cruz & Dale Murray were traded and the odd Starter was also traded like P Vukavich.
Chuck - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#223013) #

Fergie, I don't believe played this game of opinions.

Fergie Olver was a mayonnaise sandwich on white bread. Too call him bland would not be nearly sufficient.

bpoz - Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#223028) #
Chuck, Calling Fergie Olver "bland" is fair enough, accurate enough and many people felt that way. Me too.

But I want to say "thanks Fergie for AVENGING all us Jays fans, that was beautifully done, I am sure you planned it and YOU pulled it off perfectly". I will always remember it, good thing I was watching that game. To me that was priceless.

If I cannot speak for other people, then thanks just from me.
Chuck - Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#223032) #

bpoz, I don't understand the sentiments you are conveying to Fergie. Are you referring to a specific incident? What was beautifully done?

BTW, Fergie's bride.

bpoz - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#223105) #
Chuck I am glad you asked.

It was done to Tony Kubeck.

Sparky Anderson was a charming guy. He always came into TO and provided a great interview. Also the Jays were contenders then. He always praised our team, which to me was the nicest part of his interviews. Later he also admitted that that was the best way to give an interview, ie as the visitor stress the positives, I believe Joe Theisman also followed this philosophy.

But Tony Kubeck was our announcer and I felt that he did not play straight with us, I think he made himself more interesting and popular by telling us what we wanted to hear. As a person that was and probably still is easily led, I trusted him. I felt that he betrayed that trust in giving us his expert opinion.
What Fergie did on Tony's last broadcast, before Tony went on to bigger and better things with NBC was:-
There is some sort of disclaimer or warning that went like " this broadcast is the sole property of CTV and any..something..use is prohibited" this was said by Tony quite often.
So on that last broadcast when Tony finished saying it... Fergie says something like "Tony why do you always put your arm around me when you make this statement?".
Tony Sputtered!!!
Jeremy - Friday, October 01 2010 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#223404) #
Another Towers vote here.  It always seemed like he saved his biggest meatball performances to squelch a Jays winning streak.

Stottlemyre, mentioned upthread, has the (dubious) Jays record for lowest Game Score for a winning pitcher.  April 23rd 1992 against Cleveland, he gave up 8 runs, all earned on 13 hits over 6 2/3, two walks and three K's for a not so tidy Game Score of 17.  Jays win 13-8.

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