Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Game Experience At The Dome

The first game I've made it to this year - went with my 11 year old daughter.

This is a review of the non-game aspects. Quick thumbnail: the Dome staff has drastically improved, demand for Yankee tickets is high even when the Jays block off sections, the volume of music is far too high, and they need to create more non-drinking sections and put a strong emphasis on it to parents buying tickets.

Details...
When we got there the ticket booth lady was asking about where we wanted to sit, what section, what row and told us when seats disappeared from her display - massive improvement from last year when I couldn't understand what the person was saying when I bought tickets and how last year they didn't warn us the tickets were so far away you couldn't see much of anything. We got there just after Vernon's home run (could hear it from outside) and it was amazing how many were still buying tickets at that point and how scalpers were still demanding full ticket price plus to get in (I expected prices from scalpers to drop drastically by then).

Once inside we wandered the lower level for an inning so she could see the view from the expensive seats (it was her 2nd game ever). Then we went up to our seats (18 rows up in the 5th deck) and found people in them - we just went to the row above, then those people came and went to the next row, then the people for those seats came and demanded their seats rather than take the next row up. So we went down to our seats (cascade effect) with no problem. However shortly afterwards, after watching many guys going by with tons of beer (2 cups each trip), a gang of them started chanting 'f*** the Yankees' and other 4 letter chants despite knowing my daughter (who looks younger) and a few other kids (sub-10 from the looks of it) were around. She was uncomfortable (of course) so we went down when the Yankees did a pitching change to get some food (no lines as you can imagine). On our way back we talked with an usher who offered to move us to a new section (he was wondering if they were swearing but couldn't tell) but then a pair of people with Star tickets came up and gave them to us to sit on the 1st row of the 5th deck, far from the drunks. Made the game 100x more enjoyable, although my daughter isn't as enthused about going again now. Food was way overpriced ($5.25 for a dog or slice of pizza, no souvenir cups left which I wanted to get for her as a memory) and I never did see anyone selling programs (something I used to always buy). The people at the food counters though were very courteous and helpful - even got a free glass of water for my daughter when she asked.

Bottom line...
My daughter was extremely enthused about coming for her 2nd game (first was the last game of 2009 at home) but was very disappointed by the noise level and type of people in the crowd (hearing cursing mixed with 'Yankees Suck' hundreds of times does not make for a fun game - use some creativity people!). I'll wait until a late September series when the crowds are low to take her again as the fun was taken away due to that stuff (guarantee I'll never, ever take a child to a Yankees game again). She'd love to sit on the lower deck but the prices are far too high (we could get a season pass each at Ontario Place for what they charge for a seat in the lower deck). If I thought we could get down there more often I'd look at the Star pass as that is a great deal.

So, any other parents out there who want to share their experiences with their kids at the game?

Posted by John Northey on Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 09:35 AM EDT.

Game Experience At The Dome | 89 comments | Create New Account

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Chuck - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#221464) #

Professional baseball games have, unfortunately, slipped down that some slope as pro hockey and basketball games. There is never a moment's peace and quiet to allow you to talk to the people you're with. The time between innings -- once glorious, blessed dead time -- is now filled with one loud, pea-brained inanity after another. This never ending onslaught of "stimulation" may well suit the ADD generation, but some of us older farts remember live baseball games to be another animal entirely. To quote far too many has-been rockers: it used to be about the music, man.

Dan Daoust - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#221466) #

That's an interesting story. I live in New York and my 6-year-old son is -- (hold on) -- a Yankees fan. We'll be in Toronto at the end of September and I'll either be able to take him to a Sunday afternoon game against the Orioles or a Monday night game against the Yankees. Obviously he would have a rooting interest if it were the Yankees, but I'm also weighing the availability of good seats, the time of the game, etc. I hadn't really considered the possibility of a rowdy crowd...

lexomatic - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#221467) #

my mother, and other bookish people from the neighbourhood, often tolerated bringing us to see Jays games, because they could get cheap 2$ seats in the grandstands (shaded) bring books and read while the kids watched the game. my mom was a prof, so it gave her lots of marking time. i went to my 2nd game of the year a few weeks ago and got absolutely roasted by the sun - there's no shade in the cheap seats. and there's not enough peace that anyone could do what my mom did. i would never have become a fan if she hadn't brought me to games.
i went with my best friend and his 8 yr old daughter, and i found it difficult in the section we were in to find any ice cream bars for her. we had to wander all over the 5th deck before we found a concession stand that had them (she didn't want hagen daz or drumsticks).
i hate having to pay more money for stuff that's extraneous to the game and detracts from it. the game should be enough, if it's not maybe you should fix the game, not the experience.

as for the ushers i went to a fan friday game as the first one this season and i will never go again. usher lead chants and pressure to participateis NOT my idea of a good time.

lexomatic - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#221469) #

i forgot to mention our group also experienced a bunch of young men swearing and generally behaving badly with tons of primary school aged children around.
i swear A LOT... but not around kids. people need some consideration for others

Hodgie - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#221471) #

Don't mean to quibble Chuck but unlike Leafs games, real hockey games are not supposed to have quiet moments to talk except for the intermissions. Quiet and hockey = bad game.

I haven't been to the Rogers Centre since the infamous Arod incident two seasons ago (living in Calgary makes catching a game hard). My family and I caught two games in the series against the Yankees and had seats in the first row of the 200 level down the right field line. Admittedly, we couldn't see the spin on the ball from there, but it did offer a nice unobstructed vantage point for the game. This was important as my kids were 10 and 6 at the time and my wife had a great view of Rios and Jeter making everyone happy.

It was a decidedly pro Jays crowd that series that while enthusiastic maintained their decorum for the most part. The only foul language we heard was followed by an immediate apology once the person realized there were kids in the section.

All in all a great time at the park and my kids can't wait for our next trip out East to see the Jays, and maybe visit some family while we are there.

John Northey - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#221472) #

When we were moved to the front row we sat next to a boy from Australia who was at his first big league game. He was wearing a Yankee shirt (they were the only team he knew beforehand) and had a Yankee flag. He was scared to show either due to the lunkheads who screamed at anyone who had Yankee stuff on. The kid did have some fun, but in truth the Jays need to keep other sections open and available for families only if they want to encourage a new generation of fans. To make them family friendly keep the music off for those areas (kids want to talk and ask questions - I couldn't answer my daughters without yelling in her ear), no beer, and have hot dog and ice cream vendors come by so we don't have to hunt down food. There were many closed sections so they could've done this easily. Ideally you'd keep the price to $10 or less per ticket (get rid of that stupid service charge - if I buy a ticket at the booth I should be paying face value, I can live with service charges if I buy them online but not at the ticket window) perhaps with a family pass for the game (2 adults, up to 4 children ideally) - we'll buy more than enough food & drink if you provide it to us to make up the difference.

Flex - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#221473) #

Seems to me the ushers are caught in a bit of a bind here. We want them to deal with rowdy behavior and make the games kid-friendly, and yet we (maybe it's a different 'we') get upset when they try to clamp down on heckling and kill the fan spirit of the game.

I agree that boorish, drunken behavior is not the same thing as spirited fan participation, but to an usher patrolling the aisles, I imagine it's sometimes tricky to determine where the line between them falls.

Ryan Day - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#221474) #

At the last game I went to, we ended up sitting in front of 4-5 guys whose sole priority seemed to be to get as drunk as possible. (Which I've never understood: Beer at Rogers is expensive and lousy. If I pay $9 for a beer, it better come in a glass and should never have been associated with the NFL) They were drunk and foul-mouthed, and at one point I thought they were going to start fighting. The usher seemed to ignore them; after a couple innings, I was about to complain, but the usher had vanished.

Thankfully they all left on their own around the 5th inning; the usher later came back just in time to scold a kid for having his jacket over the railing. All things considered, it was a pretty lousy experience., and really sapped my enthusiasm for going to the Rogers centre.

John Northey - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#221477) #

Good points about the fine line and how to police it.

Different zones in the upper deck would help a lot. Declare 3 or 4 sections as 'booze hound' or something for those who just want to get plastered (ideally fenced off from the rest) while 3 or 4 others are 'booze free family zone'. I know they have a booze free section but it is kind of useless when it is sold out or the ticket booth people don't mention it to the consumer. As I said before, a strong family friendly section or two could really help - have a mascot wander (bring back Diamond just for that section for example while Ace handles the lower deck) and mix in good food for kids being sold by vendors. Have the seats painted with Dora, Diego and other kids characters (I know my 5 year old would love that) and make it a co-venture with Y-TV or Treehouse or something. Have something going on in the concourse that kids can do when they get bored (which they do no matter what is going on). Have cheap colouring sheets available with crayons ($2-4 for a few sheets of paper and crayons could even be OK). Heck, get long term fans who have families come up and answer questions if you want (they'd do it for free I'm sure - ask SABR).

Lots of cheap, easy things that would make me bring my 3 girls down a lot more often and might make life long fans out of them.

James W - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#221480) #

I can live with service charges if I buy them online but not at the ticket window

Funny enough, when I buy tickets online, I get upset at service charges. I'm the one doing the work. When I use the ticket booth, hey fine, overcharge me for your service. Instead, they all just gouge you, wherever you buy.

Jonny German - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#221485) #

I hadn't really considered the possibility of a rowdy crowd...

It will definitely be a rowdier, larger crowd when the Yankees are the opposition. I've favoured Yankee & Red Sox games the last couple of years because it's generally quite dead against other teams.

Good seats have never been a problem, even if you're not willing to pay for them. Kijiji can be a nice compromise between the ridiculous service charges the club inflicts and sneaking into the 100 level.

The hot dog carts outside the stadium are recommended if you like that sort of thing. $2.50 or $3 for a prime piece of street meat.

christaylor - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#221487) #

If taking a kid, I would definitely recommend going on a Junior Jays Saturday. There tend to be fewer drunks and definitely fewer obnoxious ones (more parents ready to give the stink-eye). Plus, I'm a little envious of the kids who get to run the bases after the game, I would have given anything to be on the field as a kid.

Also, there's a "you get what you pay for" aspect to the games these days -- the 500 level tends to attract more of the obnoxious behavior. 100-level OF seats are reasonably priced, considering how much even a movie can cost these days, plus if you can find someone to split a couple of flex-packs with, all the better.

Ryan Day - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#221488) #

When I buy tickets online, I get upset at service charges.

Ditto. I don't mind paying for personal service, but you want to charge me money for using your automatic system? And then you want to charge me more money so I can print tickets with my own printer? [insert expletives here] I like buying tickets online, in theory, and I'm more likely to go to games when I can pick my seats & buy tickets a couple days in advance. But Rogers just makes everything a pain, and it feels like I'm being gouged every step of the way. Just charge $17 per ticket and I'll be much happier than if you say it's $11 and then dump fees on top.

John Northey - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#221491) #

Interesting comparison. I go to the movies often with the family (Disney addicts all). Cost ranges from $2.99 a ticket (weekends at a second run in Mississauga) to $13 (new 3D movie at night in Milton). Checking the Tigers series this weekend I'd be looking at $11 for 500 level, $22 for 200 level outfield (can't see the screen), $24 for 100 level (again, no screen), $44 and up for field level.

The only spot I see a similarity is the 500 level vs going to the good theater on a non-Tuesday ($6 a ticket on Tuesdays, plus $3 if 3D). You can take food to the game I guess, which saves a bit but not tons (at movies we normally are around $30 for the 5 of us, sharing drinks).

I figure next time I take her (if she wants to go again) it'll be the outfield seats as I want her to enjoy it. But for the family it just isn't practical to blow over $100 for the 5 of us pre-food when I can go to Ontario Place for free (season pass for the 5 was under $200, been there 3 times already, includes iirc $125 off parking, max of $10 per visit so it costs us $2 to park).

I really, really miss the old outfield general admission seats. The view may not have been the best but you could move around and sit wherever, vendors came by regularly (with lousy food I admit), and it was just $4 each ($2 with coupon iirc). Although being close to the subway is very nice.

Barry Bonnell - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#221492) #

As a parent you quickly learn that there are games you don't take your kids to.

The home opener and games against the Yankees and Red Sox. Especially the Yankees, though. Always lots of swearing, drinking and, even, fighting at these games.

#2JBrumfield - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#221494) #

Also, there's a "you get what you pay for" aspect to the games these days -- the 500 level tends to attract more of the obnoxious behavior.

Not necessarily! I do sit in the 500 level most times and you do have lots of morons there but you do find douches in the good seats too as I find out the last time I was at a game. Other times I was in the 100's this season were for games against the White Sox and Cardinals that had brutal hecklers but the ushers didn't respond.

I was at a Pirates-Mets game in PNC Park on Sunday and one thing they did was have a text number to call security if you see fans acting like arseholes. You'd think Rogers, being a supposed communications giant, would set up something like that but that would be too logical. They promote the crap out of everything else that has do with them.

Denoit - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#221495) #

Personally I don't like the comparison of a movie to a Major League baseball game. The same move will be played over and over, and eventually you can rent it for next to nothing. Live entertainment is on another level. The game you get to watch will never happen again. Look at how much tickets to a poplular concert are(Or leafs game for that matter!) The experience you get at a baseball game is something you cannot cram into a movie theater. I know if i purchase 500 level tickets there is a chance I'm stuck beside some drunk college students who are more into drinking than the game, because yes 11$ is pretty cheap entertainment. If im looking for a real baseball experience, where you can see the expression on the players face, 44$ is not too much to pay for that.

#2JBrumfield - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#221496) #

As a parent you quickly learn that there are games you don't take your kids to.

The home opener and games against the Yankees and Red Sox. Especially the Yankees, though.

Sad but true. That's pretty much the games the missus and I tend to avoid but we made an exception to see Doc start against the Evil Empire last September and we'll probably go see the last home game of the year which is sadly against the Yankees. I hate feeling like I'm visiting Fenway Park North or Yankee Stadium North during those games.

John Northey - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#221498) #

I agree that baseball games are different than movies. A shame there isn't a season ticket for movie theaters (some raw dollar amount and you can go as often as you want for a year) as we'd be using it unless it was as silly as the TTC pass (have to use twice a day 6 days a week iirc).

Still, live events are more expensive and $11 is a good price for a live event. Still, the Jays put on 81 of them a year, plus all are televised (unlike plays for example) and there are 35-50k seats depending how they set up the upper deck.

I would love to take the girls more often but it is an hour+ travel time to get there (if only GO Transit would run the trains at night on the Georgetown line...sigh). If I could feel safe that I could move if a jerk was sitting near us (as I do in a movie theater), if I could feel like we wouldn't be assaulted by noise (stupid speakers & music), if they had concessions set up with all the core food nearby (hated how far we had to go to get a pizza slice) then you would see us there more often.

As stated earlier, I just hope my daughter isn't too put off by the experience last night.

Chuck - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#221500) #

Don't mean to quibble Chuck but unlike Leafs games, real hockey games are not supposed to have quiet moments to talk except for the intermissions. Quiet and hockey = bad game.

I have no objection whatsoever to fans making noise during a game or during stoppages. I do object to some dufus with a mic screaming about the lucky fan in section 21, blah blah blah, because God forbid we should have two minutes of not being "entertained" while the networks sell beer and pickup trucks.

I guess I'm old enough to not require that a game be packaged with extraneous bullshit to be a complete experience. The game alone is experience enough for me. I can always get a lobotomy if I want to experience the rest.

Chuck - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#221502) #

I hadn't really considered the possibility of a rowdy crowd...

Having witnessed this first hand on Tuesday, I think the rowdiness, such as it was, was a byproduct of the number of enemy fans in the stands. And NY and Boston fans are not shy about acting superior, even on foreign soil, which just adds fuel to the fire. Cries of "Jeter sucks" were most likely aimed at the Yankee fans more than at Jeter himself.

Alex Obal - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#221503) #

NY and Boston fans are not shy about acting superior, even on foreign soil

Mississauga really is a whole 'nother country, huh.

Spicol - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#221511) #

John, for future reference, the Rogers Centre does have no-alcohol seating in sections 520-521 (btwn 1st and home) and 141-142 (left-CF). Saturday crows (Jr. Jays Saturday) are generally family friendly with a lot more activities geared towards kids.

It's not everything you're asking for, but it's something.

John Northey - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#221518) #

Thanks Spicol. I know about Saturdays but those are hard days for us to open up (tons of family stuff on weekends, plus family is an hours+ drive away so we only see them on weekends). Sections 520-521 were never mentioned to me by the person at the counter, probably because it looked like they were sold out given we were stuck in row 18 in 516 with crowds filling behind us quickly.

The problem with 141/142 is they are in the worse possible spot to see the giant TV and kids love to look at it (speaking of which, I'd have no problem with a sausage race or something like it between innings).

237/238 look to be non-alcohol as well and seem to have a decent view at $22 (non-premium games) so those might be the best choices for me in the future. Jumps the cost from $22 to $44 (plus fees) but might be worth it if my girls enjoy it more.

christaylor - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#221526) #

$2.99 that's certainly cheap -- even the 2nd runs in Toronto (Revue is the one I'm thinking of...) are much more than that.

The comparison I had in mind with movies is with $15 in mind which seems to be the going rate at several theaters around town (and once or twice I've paid more than that for VIP at the Varsity). There's also the difference in cost/hr with the average game running about twice as long as the average movie. Then there's the fact that with movies one can pick a dud and dislike it but I've never disliked a baseball game, even a clunker where the Jays get blown out.

Mylegacy - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#221527) #

I've been to Rogers three times in the last six years - twice for opening day. I usually attend a 6 to 10 game home stand each trip. BC is a long way from Rogers. I stay at the Renaissance and my wife - with me in tow - spends the non-baseball hours shopping in the "Path" until I start to cry uncle.

Opening Day is awful - fights, drunks - yuck. On balance - even given Opening Day Joy - I prefer other games more. When either Evil Empire is there I HATE IT! I can't stand losing - even one game - when the stands are filled with &(*%%&*#@@ Yankee and BoSox fans - I'd rather watch on TV - where my tears only dilute my scotch.

On balance I prefer watching the games from my living room - my 60 inch High Def TV - a small dram or two of my beloved scotch - my Lazy Boy chair - watching the game and the ships go by my place on the ocean (both without getting up) - and - did I mention a wee dram of scotch?

Now if only Shaw would get Sportsnet One - I'd be well satisfied - even though I've a Voodoo doll, stuck full of pins of all the Rogers executives - who are without question - greedy little f**ks!

Dave Till - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#221533) #

This never ending onslaught of "stimulation" may well suit the ADD generation, but some of us older farts remember live baseball games to be another animal entirely. To quote far too many has-been rockers: it used to be about the music, man.

I'm 50, so I more or less qualify for oldfarthood, and what I recall most about seeing games years ago was going to CHUM Teen Nights in the North Grandstand at Exhibition Stadium in the late 1970s. Let's just say that it wasn't a quiet and respectful baseball audience, and just leave it at that. Ah, memories...

I will never go to a game at Ted's Shed if the Yankees or Red Sox are in town. Too many enemy fans. Too many bad vibes.

jgadfly - Thursday, August 26 2010 @ 11:59 PM EDT (#221542) #

So when is enough, enough ? ... --------- "Lineup shuffle puts Snider on bench" ... so read Jordan Bastian's headline .

"I haven't done too good a job with it, really," Gaston said on Thursday.

"As far as trying to rotate people, it's not easy," Gaston said. ... " Okay, so I'm starting to see why no one else has hired two time World Series Champion Monsieur Gaston as a manager .

"... so right now it looks like I'll play one a couple of days and play the other one a couple of days and go from there." "...It might end up being that way for a while. Then, once in a while, they might get to play three days." So, this benefits Snider how?

Okay, so if I buy the logic that has been applied to the Adam Loewen renovation ; ' it takes reps , it takes maybe 600 at bats to figure out whether he can hit ...' So can anybody tell me why their future franchise player , Travis Snider is sitting on the bench of a team all but eliminated from post season and is doing so with only a career number 496 Major League at bats in what is only his153rd game (and how many of those games did he sit)? The future franchise player is sitting while a guy who was purchased for $75,000 is taking 'at bats' away from him because Clarence supposedly wants to showcase him so he can find a job next year .

Also, isn't it interesting that the Tigers young centrefielder Austin Jackson in his first big league season and in his 118th game is now only 10 career at bats behind Snider ? The Tigers are showing confidence in Jackson and surprise, surprise Jackson is playing with confidence.

Doesn't this situation really beg a poll ? Should AA tell Cito ... 'Enough is enough ! Play Snider and sit someone else (Lewis, Encarnacion, Overbay, Lind,) or I'll arrange an early tee off time for you ! "

Yes or No ?

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 02:16 AM EDT (#221543) #

Snider is 22 years and 7 months old. He has 589 major league plate appearances. When Austin Jackson was that age, he had 0 major league plate appearances.

Major league plate appearances at Snider's age by any significant hitter who has come up through the Jays' system:

Lloyd Moseby    995
Travis Snider   589
John Olerud     429
Tony Fernandez  292
Jesse Barfield  236
George Bell     168
Carlos Delgado  161
Shawn Green     127
Vernon Wells     92
Adam Lind        65
Fred McGriff      5

Moseby and Wells were the highest draft picks, and Delgado was (by far) the most hyped, most anticipated.

Travis Snider was rushed to the major leagues at age 20 for no good reason whatsoever. In fact, the only explanation I've ever been able to come up with is that Ricciardi wanted to show him off.

Alex Obal - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 02:27 AM EDT (#221544) #

PR damage control after the Matt Stairs trade? Easing him into the majors against September-caliber pitching, in anticipation of sending him north in April 2009? Showing him off too, definitely. In general I just took it as "He can handle it, so what the hell."

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 02:30 AM EDT (#221545) #

What the hell, ready or not, let's start his service clock now. Yeah, I know the kid was in A ball just four months ago but hey - they're gonna fire my ass anyway....

Alex Obal - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 02:38 AM EDT (#221548) #

See, it makes perfect sense! Then, when people point out the service time issue and the possibility that a consolidation year in the minors might be a good idea, you can just make up some nebulous, unfalsifiable BS about how you think players develop best when you don't let them get complacent and you really challenge them. Bulletproof.

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 02:38 AM EDT (#221549) #

It mystified me then, and it mystifies me now. Snider began 2008 at Dunedin, his first exposure to high A ball. After going 17-61 (.279), he was promoted to AA. Did he tear apart the Eastern League? Not really - he hit .262 with 17 HRs in 98 games. They bumped up to the PCL anyway, and after two hot weeks there (which no one, under any circumstances, should be impressed by - it was 18 games, and it was the Pacific Coast League) - he was in the majors. What the hell for? They rushed him every step of the way.

Alex Obal - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 02:50 AM EDT (#221550) #

It does seem like he thought he absolutely had to win at all costs in 2009 or 2010, to save his job. Catching lightning in a bottle with Snider was one of the few realistic ways that could happen. Exposing him to real pitchers in 2008 could only make that more likely... right? If it didn't work out, oh well. File Snider's service time under 'all costs.'

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 03:10 AM EDT (#221552) #

My mistake - Snider's 18 game hot streak at AAA in 2008 was in the International League, not the PCL.

Well, that changes everything, I guess.

92-93 - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 04:46 AM EDT (#221554) #

Of course instead of acknowledging the damage Clarence is doing NOW to Snider's development it's just easier to talk about the previous GM's mistakes, ones I don't remember being discussed here as they "occurred".

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 06:25 AM EDT (#221555) #

the damage Clarence is doing NOW to Snider's development

Nobody knows if his development is being damaged. You may think his development is being damaged. But that is all. How could you possibly know? How could anyone? You've got an opinion. That is all.

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 06:34 AM EDT (#221556) #

the previous GM's mistakes, ones I don't remember being discussed here as they "occurred".

I can't speak for anyone else - I don't remember what anyone else thought. As for myself, I don't remember commenting one way or the other on the issue after Snider was promoted at the end of August 2008. I do remember quite confidently asserting before it happened that bringing the kid up that September was a deeply silly and pointless thing to do, and I was sure the team wouldn't do anything so dumb. The Search function is disabled, so I can't give you a link. Would have been July or (more likely) August 2008...

scottt - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 06:50 AM EDT (#221557) #

Major league plate appearances at Snider's age by any significant hitter who has come up through the Jays' system:

Lloyd Moseby    995
Travis Snider   589
John Olerud     429
Tony Fernandez  292
Jesse Barfield  236
George Bell     168
Carlos Delgado  161
Shawn Green     127
Vernon Wells     92
Adam Lind        65
Fred McGriff      5

That is not the point, is it? Do you have a chart like that for the number of games each of these guy sat?

Besides, the way things seem to work is that they'll wait until he has one good year, then they'll 
make him sign an extended contract and then he'll play everyday regardless of his numbers.

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 07:44 AM EDT (#221558) #

Obviously Snider hasn't sat out nearly as many games as young George Bell did. Probably not as many as Tony Fernandez, either. (Bobby Cox kept playing Alfredo Griffin, and sitting Fernandez.) Might be interesting to find out. But that's not my point, which is that compared to other Jays hitting prospects Snider's received plenty of major league ABs for a guy his age.

ayjackson - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 08:09 AM EDT (#221559) #

There are two points:

1. Cito can't see that he is sitting one of his better players.

2. We'd like to have Travis Snider as a heart of the order masher by the time we're ready for a run at the AL East. Sitting him regularly must surely delay that process.

Sure, that's my opinion. And it's as good as yours.

China fan - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 08:38 AM EDT (#221560) #

...the damage Clarence is doing NOW to Snider's development...

If this "damage" is as obvious as you claim it is, Anthopolous would pick up the telephone and tell Cito to stop damaging his top hitting prospect. The fact that Anthopolous has NOT made this phone call is pretty clear evidence that he believes that Snider is NOT being damaged. Basically we have two choices of whom to believe: 1) we can believe some casual fans in the stands who claim that Snider is being damaged because he's not playing every day; 2) we can believe the combined opinion of the entire Jays organization, which has decided -- for a variety of reasons -- that Snider at age 22 is not ready for a full-time job every day. Don't know about you, but I prefer to accept the consensus of the Jays management on this one. (The counter-argument is the theory that Anthopolous and Beeston are afraid to disagree with Gaston on anything. Basically a nutty conspiracy theory, as far as I can see, since Gaston is the outgoing junior employee vis-a-vis AA and Beeston who are his bosses. I find it totally implausible that Gaston is the most powerful man in the entire Jays organization, a month before his departure.)

The Jays have presumably decided that Snider has flaws in his hitting that would expose him to failure if he plays full-time in the majors at this point in his development. There's nothing magical about major-league playing time that mysteriously solves all hitting problems. Those flaws or problems can better be fixed by coaches and practice outside of the pressure of a major-league game. Otherwise bad habits develop and are repeated. Nothing wrong with giving him 4 games a week, instead of 5 or 6, so that there's time to work on any issues he might have.

The whole Snider fuss is reminiscent of the uproar over Adam Lind's development, a few years ago. Fans said Lind should have been in the majors full-time in 2007, based on his impressive minor-league performances. In 2007, the kid was 23 years old and clearly not ready. The Jays gave him a taste of the majors, allowed him to ease in gradually, and by 2009 he was a top hitter in the league. In retrospect, does anyone think that Lind would have developed faster if he was made a full-time player in 2007 at the age of 23? The Jays have a good record of developing their prospects -- Lind, Romero, Cecil etc -- and there's nothing to indicate that the Jays are "damaging" their top prospects by failing to follow the advice of some fans.

Jonny German - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#221561) #

I don't get why people waste so much energy complaining about Cito when the man is gone at the end of this year. The war is over! If you don't want Cito around, you've won!

I agree that he's playing Lewis too much and Snider too little. I dont' agree that it's obvious that the currennt team is better with Snider playing and Lewis sitting, and I think it's ludicrous that some are implying that Cito is intentionally not putting the best lineup on the field.

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 08:51 AM EDT (#221562) #

Cito can't see that he is sitting one of his better players.

Neither can I. By what leap of logic is Snider one of the team's better players right now? His claim to being a ballplayer is his bat - and I see no less than seven regulars with a higher OPS+ - everyone except Hill and Lind. The manager is taking at bats away from guys who have been better than Snider - mainly Lewis - and giving them to Snider. Which is just fine by me, as it happens. I wish he'd take more at bats away from Lewis and give them to Snider.

But come on. He ain't Babe Ruth quite yet. And the notion that his development is being damaged, that he's going to be maimed and scarred by playing 15 games this month instead of 25.... how shall I put this politely... sorry, I can't. I think it is an utterly hysterical over-reaction, and much ado about very very little. Is the kid made out of glass? Is his psyche that fragile? I'm pretty sure it's not. I sure hope it's not, because if it is he's never going to be worth a damn anyway.

bpoz - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#221563) #

Since this is considered a development year then T Snider should play IMO.
1) I think he should play everyday. Either here or in AAA or AA. AA would give him some playoff experience.
2) However maybe more minor league ABs will not be of much value to him.
3) Before his injury, he was really hitting quite well. I remember that long at bat against Boston I believe when he hit the HR. I cannot remember the pitcher but I clearly remember the determined look on his face... that was a look of ME against YOU and he won in SPADES. I think even Cito was impressed by his overall hitting.

Speaking of Cito, I maybe read too much in his "pat answers". So Cito may say something like "he has done nothing to lose his job". This statement is used a lot by Cito regarding any player or pitcher. So if V Wells,J Bautista and F Lewis are doing a good job for Cito then they probably won't lose out.
I also personally feel that Cito has had success winning games for the Jays through out his managing career with the Jays. I have heard all the arguments and complaints about Cito but I stick to my opinion and respect everyone else's opinion.
So I am sure? Cito thinks
1) Snider can be a great hitter.
2) F Lewis will struggle to have a major league carreer, constantly having to prove himself.
But Lewis has basically produced for Cito when he was needed so Lewis gets Cito's loyalty.
Well thats my understanding of this situation. It want Sinder to play every day because I always look for him to hit a HR and fantasize a 10 Hr month if he got the ABs.

ayjackson - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:06 AM EDT (#221564) #

Neither can I. By what leap of logic is Snider one of the team's better players right now?

Well he's leading the team in LD%. So it appears he's been unlucky. Hardly a leap of logic to say that maybe OPS is currently undervaluing Snider.

For the record, I've never said his development is being damaged, but surely it is being delayed. PA's equal development, in my opinion.

ayjackson - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#221565) #

I wish he'd take more at bats away from Lewis and give them to Snider.

Well that's all I'm saying. Don't paint me as a huge Cito basher or anything like that. I just think, on the matter at hand, he isn't trying very hard to get Snider at bats. He says it's tough, but I don't think it is really. He should try my job.

China fan - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#221566) #

Another key point to remember: the Jays cannot publicly state the reason why Snider is not playing every day, because to do so would be to publicly criticize one of their players. It's just not done in baseball. For reasons of tact, strategy, public relations, and the morale of the player involved, the Jays cannot give a full explanation of why a player is sitting. Let's say, hypothetically, that the Jays are concerned that Snider is having trouble with off-speed pitches on the outside of the plate -- or some such thing. (Could be anything.) And let's say that some opposition pitchers have figured it out and are throwing a steady diet of off-speed outside pitches to Snider. Would the Jays publicly announce this problem, so that every other pitcher can do the same thing? Leaving Snider exposed to public criticism, dealing a public blow to his confidence? No, the Jays will only praise Snider in public, because that's what you do. Meanwhile, in the batting cage, they've got Snider working on solving this problem.

There are reasons why Snider is not playing every day. The Jays will never reveal those reasons publicly. As a result, some fans seem to assume that there are NO reasons to sit Snider.

LouisvilleJayFan - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#221567) #

It's interesting that you mention that about the Yankees games. My girlfriend was going to surprise me with tickets to go Toronto for my birthday for a Yankees/Blue Jays game...until we realized our passports weren't up to date. It worked out though because when she told me it was for a Yankees game (and she remarked at the expense as well) I cringed. I told her I'd much rather go see a Royals/Blue Jays game than a Yankees/Blue Jays or Red Sox/Blue Jays game because I suspected all those things you mentioned in your post. So, we'll be seeing a non-rival next year for sure.

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#221568) #

This is not an exact science, of course. Further up the page, I provided a list of 10 Jays hitting prospects, plus Snider, all of whom developed into very fine major league hitters, despite being brought along very, very slowly (Fred McGriff, quite possibly the best of the bunch) or despite being rushed to the majors years before he was remotely ready for the job (Lloyd Moseby.) (And Adam Lind should not have been on the list - he was already 23 years old before he had his major league at bat.)

If you want an example of a hitter who did not develop.... I give you the first Alex Gonzalez. Gonzo was a helluva prospect, and like Snider he arrived in AA at age 20. His performance at that level was just as good as Snider's, and I would suggest that his AAA performance at age 21, once you adjust for the vastly different offensive contexts, can also stand comparison to what Snider did in AAA.

But that was as good as he got. Gonzalez never developed a lick from the day he arrived in the majors to stay, at age 22. Granted, he carried far larger defensive responsibilties, and he developed into an outstanding shortstop. But as a hitter, he was as good at age 22 as he ever would be.

I will be very surprised if that happens to Snider, of course.

John Northey - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:29 AM EDT (#221569) #

Lets check some stats (latest on B-R)...
Lewis: 72 PA in August, 210/306/323 - ugh.
Snider: 69 PA in August, 246/290/385 - not good, but better.

Talk about a pair of poor choices. Guess that explains Overbay (83 PA 235/361/485), Wells (91 PA 274/330/488), Lind (81 PA 293/346/520), and Bautista (101 PA 263/396/675) getting more playing time.

Basically for OBP Snider is 40 points lower than the worst of O/W/B/L and 16 worse than Lewis. For Slg he is 100 points lower than Overbay and 62 ahead of Lewis. So it isn't a stretch to say Snider has had some of the worst results among the 3, possibly the worst with Lewis either just behind or just ahead.

And yet... for PA Snider is just 3 behind Lewis and 14 behind Overbay (one game can switch that order, about 3 games of PA behind Overbay).

Clearly the playing time has been shuffled with Bautista (understandably) being the only guy not getting taken out at all while the two not hitting well (Lewis & Snider) getting the least time.

Playing time for Snider, while his results are poor, can be viewed as rewarding poor performance which you don't want to do. Lewis is making it easier by doing the same. I suspect Cito's view is that if you just give the job to a kid he won't work as hard at earning it.

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#221570) #

A few things here:

1) Absolute age should have nothing to do with this argument. Snider has shown that he has nothing left to prove in the minors. He has absolutely destroyed AAA in his time there. You don't penalize the player for being younger.
2) While his OPS+ might not be outstanding, his peripherals are. This is a guy with one of the premier line drive rates in the majors and he's been killed on being unlucky. Compare this to Hill who you can easily see how his peripherals support his setback season.
3) The guy taking at bats from him is a worse hitter, a worse defender and has no future on this team. And to me Snider is hustling more too. I find it a shame in the game in which he gutted out a couple infield hits he then gets to sit a couple games. Lewis though constantly makes lazy routes in the OF or stupid decisions on the basepaths.
4) Snider is being tossed all around the lineup, depending on who he is replacing that day. I would say the lack of consistency both in playing time and in batting position is hurting his development.

Basically the Jays have gone and wasted years off his arbitration for no good reason. China I reject your theory that there could be another reason Snider is not playing. I think it is as Cito said. He in his mind has Snider in a strict platoon role with Lewis and will only play Bautista at third, Lind at first or Lewis in CF if he has no other choice so there is really nothing to relieve the Snider/Lewis split.

I just find it sad that Wallace who we just traded is finding an every day spot in the lineup, and even through struggling is learning about major league pitching. Yet the far more capable and talented Snider who we have, can barely get in 50% of the time. Lewis really does need to go, because he is useless as a 4th OF due to his defense (and apparently he complains a lot if sitting on the bench) and he's not good enough to be a starting OF here. I wish AA would just dump him on someone now.

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#221571) #

Also would like to add that there is nothing about Snider's stats that support China's idea that his swing needs working on or retooling. His splits are good, yes he is having a bit less success this year against fastballs, but is still career a +fastball hitter, his walk rates are good, his ISO is good. What he is being killed at is having a bad BABIP. That is luck. Snider's swing doesn't need adjusting, and I'm scared of him listening too much to "swing first" Murphy and losing his patient eye at the plate.

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#221573) #

He has absolutely destroyed AAA in his time there.

That's one of the problems with having the AAA team in Las Vegas. Everybody looks like Babe Ruth there. The immortal Hector Luna hit .351 there last year. Mighty Joe Inglett hit .360. It's a terrible place to send young hitters. The game ain't that easy.

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#221574) #

I agree with the Vegas thing, and it's been shown true in players like McCoy and Hoffspaiur. But Snider was hitting something like a 1.1 OPS in there, which is still monstrous no matter how you put it.

As for his season here, looking at his advanced stats just shows him to be unlucky. Hitting 30 points less on BABIP then his career rate despite his huge line drive rate, having his best year ISO wise, walks a tick down but at the same time K rate also the lowest of his career. You give him those 20 to 30 points of BABIP back and he'd easily have the second best stats on this team behind Bautista. His peripherals all show him very close to breaking out. Now not sure how much this wrist injury might have set him back, because those are tricky. But still he has shown nothing in either hustle or plate approach that should leave him on the bench as much as he has been. (I've been very impressed by his hustle in the OF and on the basepaths)

John Northey - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#221575) #

Based on PA vs maximum for the guys who were to be in the rotation Snider is around 70% of his maximum time (using Bautista as the max). If you use the non-Bautista's time then 91 PA is the max and Snider is at 69 thus 76% of the potential playing time.

I do agree that Lewis should be moved to backup (Wise's role) for the rest of the season and Snider should get more playing time. One wonders if there is a lingering injury thus a need for more rest. I wouldn't put it past Cito to hide that from the public at large as a way to keep people from asking Snider about it every day. Thinking back (without checking stats) 70% seems to be about what Cito likes to give kids for playing time - Green and Olerud come to mind right away (just shy of 500 PA in a full season).

Is it good or bad? Don't know. I'd like to see him climb to 80%-90% of potential time in the field but 2011 is the breakout year for Snider I think.

Magpie - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#221576) #

I put this together last year, don't know if you remember it. Minor league numbers, ages 18-21:

                G    AB    R   H    TB  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB  CS  BB  SO BAVG  OBP  SLG
Snider         353 1313  229  399  700  91  9  64  265  14  17 168 377 .304 .383 .533
Dunn           343 1208  263  367  634  70  4  63  220  60  21 230 270 .304 .415 .525
Delgado        473 1625  276  489  823  89  4  79  311  23  26 271 353 .301 .401 .506
McGriff        366 1289  193  324  591  59  8  64  202  12  11 201 407 .251 .352 .458

As first glance, Snider and Dunn are almost dead ringers for one another - the difference is in the details. Snider drew a good number of walks, Dunn drew an enormous number of walks. Dunn struck out an awful lot, Snider struck out way more often than Dunn. But Snider, a far superior athlete, did much better on his balls in play (speed doesn't slump!). Dunn, of course, was fully formed by age 21 and hasn't developed a bit since then. Delgado, a very similar hitter in the minors to both Snider and Dunn, developed a great deal from where he was at that age (giving up catching surely didn't hurt, which is why he's been a far greater hitter than Dunn in the majors.)

And all three were quite a bit better than McGriff at that age, but the Crime Dog was the one who developed the most, had the best major league career, and has the best Hall of Fame case.

Mike Green - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#221578) #

On Camp Day, the Red Sox fans and the drunken louts were outnumbered. Not a bad day to take an afternoon off and take the kids to see a game, if you can swing it.

As for Snider/Lewis, I'd play Snider every day. I think that he'd make a fine 2 hitter behind Escobar for the rest of the season.

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#221579) #

I'd be happier with the 70% if:

1) That number wasn't currently dropping. If anything he is seeing less time lately
2) He wasn't being yanked around in the lineup so much. Snider should not be hitting leadoff. While he does have decent on base skills and it's nice to see him get more at bats, I'd feel better if he was left in the 6 or 7 hole permanently on all games he played. Of course this means finding someone else to lead off when Lewis is not playing, which may be difficult.

I'd probably be happier if Snider would get something like 4 in a row and then 2 off to at least get a rhythm, and Cito has mentioned that in the latest Bastian article. But that's probably difficult to pull off.

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#221580) #

Yeah Mike that would be good. Snider second behind Escobar. Really the options for leadoff are limited after those 3. (Lewis being the third) Overbay is really the only other batter on the team with on base skills, and he wouldn't be a great leadoff choice either. Well Bautista too, but that would be crazy given what he's doing.

Not like this is going to happen though. Cito has apparently decided that everyone but Snider gets to keep their lineup spots when they play, while he gets to fill the spot of whomever he replaces.

Jimbag - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#221582) #

I agree, there are a lot of idiots in the stands - I went to a Giants (WHL) game with a friend and his two daughters last year and they were subjected to such pithy comments as "Shoot the F'n puck, you c**t" delivered at full volume...it's amazing that you can get such insight for free!

But we sort of have to accept the moron factor when we go to any large public gathering. Kids can't be isolated from obscenity - it's actually a pretty good opportunity to point out that the people swearing at the top of their lungs are making asses of themselves - it's not pleasant, but it's the price of doing business. And for anyone living in the GTA moaning about the experience, I have a 4+ hour flight to see home games, and a minimum 3 hour travel (including border lineups) to see the Jays in Seattle, but I still do both as often as I can.

China fan - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#221586) #

....Cito has apparently decided that everyone but Snider gets to keep their lineup spots when they play....

If that was true, Lind and Hill would still be at the top of the batting order, as they were at the start of the season. Instead, the obvious fact is that Lind and Hill have been moved several times during the season. I don't recall you complaining that the problems of Lind and Hill should be blamed on Gaston. And I don't recall you ever claiming that Hill and Lind were failing to hit because they were "yanked around" or "tossed around" in the lineup.

China fan - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#221587) #

Two of the players that Gaston has praised most often this season have been Bautista and Gonzalez. He specifically praised them because they were willing to play in any position in the lineup. Top, bottom, anywhere. They were often moved around the lineup, and they always hit well. That's clearly something that Gaston appreciates and praises. Nobody ever complained that they were "yanked around" or "tossed around" and therefore were unable to hit well. Why shouldn't Snider learn to hit at various places in the lineup? Aside from Vernon Wells, virtually every other Jays player has been moved around the lineup. When you use phrases like "yanked around" and "tossed around", you make it seem like some Guantanamo-style torture. It's not. It's part of the game, and players have to learn to accept it. Having said that, of course Gaston prefers to avoid it if he can. He has tried to give stability to some players, as long as it doesn't hurt the team. But an outfielder with an OPS of .750 can't expect that level of protection.

John Northey - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#221588) #

That 70% figure is for this month, the past 26 days. That sounds fairly recent and is after Snider was injured.

However, lets check the Boston/NYY/Detroit series for Snider/Lewis/Bautista (using Bautista as the full-time check)...

Snider: 18 PA 294/333/294
Lewis: 29 PA 240/345/280
Bautista: 31 PA 375/484/917 (wow)

So Snider has 58% of potential PA while Lewis has 94%. Yup, Cito did sit Snider down this past week. 3 of the past 4 games Snider missed which is probably what got this going. Why did Snider sit those games? Who pitched - Ivan Nova a rookie RHP, Phil Hughes a RHP, and Max Scherzer a good RHP.

Seems odd as those 3 should've been good ones for Snider to face for fattening up stats. Is there a nagging injury? That is all I can think of.

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#221590) #

Yes Lind and Hill have moved around several times this season. That is entirely different then Snider who gets moved around several times each week. Not to mention that there is a big difference between being moved from 6th to 8th then it is between 7th and 1st which is what Snider has been doing lately.

I fail to see your point here China. Lind and Hill were given a long period of time to stay at a spot in the lineup. When it didn't work out they were moved down. Snider has never been given a spot in the lineup to stay at since he got back from his injury. Since then his pattern has been to replace whomever in the lineup whose spot he is taking that night. I'd be much happier if they would take Snider and put him at a position and leave him there, whether that be 6th, 7th, 2nd or 9th. (not first, I don't think he should hit leadoff)

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#221591) #

I don't quite understand Cito's philosophy with sitting Snider when he does either. He sat him for like 2/3 of the Angels series, and then brought him in 3 straight games against lefties in Oakland. Now he is sitting him in games where he is facing righties. Doesn't make much sense.

China your point on protection and stability doesn't make much sense. One Snider's peripherals show him to be being hurt by bad luck. Nothing wrong with his approach. Second he has outperformed many players on this team who get that protection, for whatever reason you want to name. Really our lineup has been very stable, with only Hill/Lind moving down and Gonzalez-Escobar/Bautista moving up to upset it. Lewis since he's been here has always been leadoff. Hill/Lind started at 2nd/3rd, but were replaced by Bautista/Gonzalez. Well has always hit 4th. Overbay always between 5-7. Catchers between 7-9.

Plus even if that wasn't true, why wouldn't you want to put a player with the talent and skill of Snider in the best position to succeed? When the Marlins brought up Logan Morrison they put him in a good spot in the lineup. They didn't yank him all over the lineup 3 times a week.

John Northey - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#221592) #

The more you look at it the more you really, really hope that AA will trade Overbay or Lewis before September 1st. It does appear that Lind/Overbay/Wells are not going to be sat a lot from here on out (after reading Cito's interview) and that he does plan to mix and match Lewis & Snider (2-3 days in, 2-3 days out).

Lewis looks to have the upside of being a decent leadoff hitter, but not a great one. Snider we all know has a very high ceiling still. Given Lewis only cost a ptbnl or cash (suggesting not a very good ptbnl) the Jays should just find a home for him as he was said to have serious issues with being benched (thus probably isn't happy with things as is anyways).

Alex Obal - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#221593) #

it's just easier to talk about the previous GM's mistake

I was trying to draw a parallel...

On an unrelated note, it literally is easier. At least one cost of bringing Snider up early is concrete: service time. Can't fudge that. It's less clear how much is lost, and of what, by taking away big-league PAs from Snider in the name of who the hell knows. (Exposure to pitchers, experience in general and particularly in meaningful games, morale of veterans who are here for the long haul - think Bautista minds seeing a talented guy given an everyday shot?, all of the above, none of the above...)

ayjackson - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#221594) #

Have there been reports of Lewis hitting the waiver wire? I would think he'd have been claimed.

Mike Green - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#221595) #

Lewis has an issue about playing less than full-time? He has always been on the margins for a full-time left-fielder. This isn't the case of a great player who has become average. It's the case of a player who never was better than average, and is 30 years old, who is taking time from a 22 year old "currently average" player. If Lewis were a RHH, it would be reasonable to platoon him with Snider, but he isn't.

As it is, it is time for Lewis to accept a lesser role with some grace. If he won't, he ought to be sent elsewhere.

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#221603) #

I can't recall where I read it Mike, but yeah that was the gist of what was coming out of the clubhouse. That Lewis wasn't happy with being a part time player. Given his issues on defense, he is poorly suited to be a backup outfielder anyway, since he can barely play 1 OF position, much less 3.

This is what I said a few weeks ago. That AA needs to take away one of Cito's toys. It is no surprise that the best performance Snider had this year was when he was given every day playing time before his injury. And a key factor in that was Encarnacion's injury. With EE out, Bautista was playing third every day and Lewis and Snider both got full time playing time. Since he's gotten back Snider has had less playing time then Lewis and Cito isn't willing to move other spots around to relieve the logjam.

AA needs to decide which one of the players (EE, Lewis, or Overbay) that he has no interest in bringing back next year and then find a waiver trade for them, or if nothing else then a release. (I'm sure you could get a C prospect for EE or Overbay anyway)

China fan - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#221604) #

....Since he's gotten back Snider has had less playing time then Lewis....

That's just marginally true at the moment, and in about two hours it will no longer be true at all. (Counting from Aug. 1 to now.)

Kasi - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#221605) #

And it will be true again if Snider has a bad game tonight I'm sure. The point is it shouldn't be even close. If you're giving Lewis the same amount of at bats as Snider or even close, you're doing something wrong.

China fan - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#221606) #

So if Snider plays tomorrow and Lewis sits, will you admit that you're wrong? Or will nothing satisfy you until Snider is playing more than every other player in the lineup?

Dewey - Friday, August 27 2010 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#221607) #

Kasi, will you do me a favour? My teeth have started grinding each time I see you confuse �than� with �then�. You do it consistently; and dental work is expensive. Thanks.

I suppose it�s inappropriate for someone of my age to declare himself a fan-boy, or to have a man-crush (if I even understand these curious terms correctly); but I have to confess my deep regard for young Mr. Snider. And I�m pretty firmly in the �let�s play him� regularly camp.

Alex Obal - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 04:14 AM EDT (#221615) #

I suppose it�s inappropriate for someone of my age to declare himself a fan-boy, or to have a man-crush (if I even understand these curious terms correctly)

I think this is how it works:

'Fanboy' is pejorative, suggests irrational obsession, and strongly connotes a certain kind of subculture - video games, Japanese anime, Star Trek, and sure, baseball. I doubt you're one of those. 'Mancrush' is more often used for self-deprecation. It is rather particular to pro sports and suggests intense admiration, nothing more.

A Snider fanboy is more likely to memorize the "Personal" section of his media bio. A person with a mancrush is more likely to overrate him.

Kasi - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#221620) #

Sorry about the grammar there, I'll try to watch it.

China your arguments would be easier to take if you wouldn't constantly put exaggerated claims into people's mouths. I never said I wanted Snider to get the most at bats on the team and you know that. What I want is him to be the starting OF and Lewis to be his backup. That's it. Give Snider as many at bats as you would a Hill, Lind, EE or Overbay. Especially the last two considering they aren't going to figure in to this team's future. Snider needs to know that even if he has a bad game, he still gets to stay in there. This quick yank philosophy I think is leading to the situation where both Snider and Lewis are pressing too hard. Other batters on this team are given the chance to work their way through slumps or bad games, and I feel Snider should be afforded the same opportunity.

China fan - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#221621) #

....Give Snider as many at bats as you would a Hill, Lind, EE or Overbay.....

Kasi, you're still contradicting yourself. You claim that you don't want Snider to have the most at-bats on the team, but then you say that you want him to have as many as Hill, Lind and Overbay -- who are 3 of the top 5 on the entire team in terms of at-bats. In fact, Lind has the 2nd-highest at-bats on the entire team, a mere 13 behind the leader, Wells. So, if you give Snider as many at-bats as Lind, you're giving him the 2nd-highest playing time on the team, and virtually the highest. So how did I "exaggerate" what you said? You've now confirmed what I said -- you want Snider to have as many ABs as the 2nd-highest guy on the team.

Yesterday you claimed that Gaston would bench Snider if he had a bad game last night. Well, guess what, he had a bad game -- he went 0 for 5 -- and he's back in the lineup today. Where is the "quick yank" that you allege?

You claim that he's "yanked around" the lineup. As far as I can see, he's always in one of three positions: lead-off, 7th or 9th. That's not so different from most other players on the team, who are usually kept in two or three normal positions in the lineup.

Dewey - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#221622) #

Many thanks, Alex. O.K., �fanboy� is out--way out. �Mancrush� might work, in no small part because of my scarcely suppressed anxiety that I might be over-rating Travis. (I�m sorry he muffed that long fly to right last night. Shoulda had it.)

Kasi, not a *big* problem, (it only becomes one if you deny it). And I'm sorry to give offence to Bauxites by my sporadic outbursts about mis-use of language. Think of it as a form of geriatric incontinence, if that makes you feel better. I can't help it. Mess with my languange and you're messing with me. I'll bark. And bark some more.

ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#221623) #

Not a lot of PA's granted, but Brett Wallace isn't looking like "Too High a Price to Pay" for Anthony Gose. The former has fashioned an ugly .187/.265/.213 line in Houston, while Gose has shown steady improvement in the FSL with a .350 obp and a .785 ops while playing for Dunedin. And of course most important, Gose is an excellent player at a key mid-diamond position while Wallace plays first base.

This trade may turn out to be as much of a pleaser as the Morrow trade. It makes me think of Bill James' take in the Abstract of the Jr. Felix/Devon White trade when James said "Pat Gillick is smarter than that". Anyone else old enough to remember reading that?

The other thing, and I find this a bit intriguing, is that Wallace continues to show reverse splits. His line vs. righties is even worse (his current OPS+ vs. righties in Houston is 12), which continues what he's previously shown in the minors.

AA may never have another year as good as this one.

Kasi - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#221626) #

China there is a huge difference between a player being hit at 7th and 1st. If you look at Snider's splits you can see he isn't hitting well first in the lineup. Hitting 6-9th though he is hitting pretty well.

And yes I want Snider to be a full time member of this team, which means yes giving him as many at bats as other full time members of this team. Your comment was I wasn't happy if he isn't getting the most on the team. Clearly I never said that. I just want him to be treated like any other of the "full time" club.

The funny thing is that EE got injured and is going on the 15 day DL. But Cito doesn't want to move Bautista from the OF, so Mac is going to get the majority of the at bats while he is gone and Lewis and Snider will continue to split at bats. It was somewhat defensible when Snider was losing at bats to Lewis, considering Lewis is one of the few decent lead off alternatives. But if Snider is losing at bats because Cito prefers Mac at third over Bautista? Sorry that's as far as my tolerance for Cito goes. I want him gone.

Kasi - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#221627) #

To elaborate I want Cito when he is making his lineup to pencil in Snider as his every day outfielder of choice. Whether that position is left or right field I don't care. Pick one out of a hat honestly, it wouldn't matter to me. I want Snider to be one of our three starting outfielders. I would also like him to be like most other members of this ballclub left in his batting order. I'd think anywhere between 5 and 9 would be fair. Put him there and leave him there. He is not a leadoff hitter, he has never hit leadoff before. He is a middle of the order masher and in a year or two should be hitting somewhere between 2 and 5. Trying to make him a leadoff hitter because Cito doesn't wake to make someone else hit leadoff (like Yunel) doesn't wash with me. Cito has said many times that he doesn't want Lind to be cleanup hitter because he doesn't feel comfy there. Well Snider clearly doesn't feel comfortable leading off. And he should not be losing at bats because Cito doesn't want to put Bautista at third with EE out. Mac is not a good hitter and isn't even that good a third basemen.

ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#221628) #

Check please, waiter.

China fan - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#221629) #

...Hitting 6-9th though he is hitting pretty well....

At the beginning of the season, the Snider fans were noisily denouncing Gaston for daring to put Snider at the bottom of the lineup. They called Gaston a moron who needed to be fired for putting Snider in the 9th slot. Go back and look at all the comments on various blogs by fans who heaped ridicule on Gaston for batting Snider in the 9th position. Now, at the end of the season, the Snider fan club is noisily denouncing Gaston for NOT putting him at the bottom of the order. Apparently now it is unfair to put Snider at the TOP of the lineup, because his fans have suddenly realized that he hits best at the bottom of the order. So, will these fans now acknowledge that they were wrong to attack Gaston for batting Snider in the 9th slot at the start of the year?

...Your comment was I wasn't happy if he isn't getting the most on the team....

No, I didn't make that comment. I actually just asked you a question. I was curious to know your opinion about how many ABs should be given to Snider. You gave your answer: you won't be satisfied until Snider has as many ABs as Adam Lind (2nd-highest total on the team) and Hill and Overbay (two other players in the top 5 in the entire team). In other words, it's highly unlikely that you'll ever be satisfied, in 2010 at least.

....Snider is losing at bats because Cito prefers Mac at third over Bautista....

Wrong again. Gaston explained this very clearly today. It's not because he prefers McDonald ahead of Bautista. It's because he doesn't want an outfield consisting of Wells, Snider and Lewis, because this would be a defensive disaster. A manager who is concerned about defence is, I think, a good thing. Snider's defensive weaknesses are yet another reason for his occasional sitting in 2010, and his fan club has not addressed this problem. Or do you think that Snider-Lewis-Wells is a completely acceptable OF for every game of the season, no matter how many flies are missed and poor routes are taken?

Maybe the solution is to give Snider and Lewis some occasional playing time at DH when they are not in the OF. This, in fact, was the solution today, and it might be the solution again for some games in the future.

China fan - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#221631) #

And that's my last comment on Snider. I agree with ComebyDeanChance. Everything that can be said, has been said. Kasi can have the final word if he wants.

Kasi - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#221632) #

The fact is (and the numbers show this) that despite his cannon arm, Bautista isn't that good a RF. There is little statistical difference between Snider and him there. Bautista's not that good a 3B either, Obviously he needs to play somewhere and he will because of his bat. I really don't understand why it's so hard for you to understand that my point is that Snider needs to be an every day player. It is my opinion that Snider is a better hitter then most of the full time players on this team already, and will in the future easily be the best hitter on the team. Of course I'm going to be disappointed til next year, because clearly Cito doesn't see Snider as an every day player at this point. I can only hope the next manager isn't so inclined.

MatO - Saturday, August 28 2010 @ 11:01 PM EDT (#221635) #

It makes me think of Bill James' take in the Abstract of the Jr. Felix/Devon White trade when James said "Pat Gillick is smarter than that". Anyone else old enough to remember reading that?
Yes, I remember something like that. What James didn't know at the time was that Felix was 3-4 years older than was listed and Felix's age was a big factor in the comment.

ComebyDeanChance - Sunday, August 29 2010 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#221640) #

It's true that the truth about Jr.'s age hadn't yet come out, though I think he was 2 years older than he had claimed. The jays signed him when he was 18, and I don't think he could have claimed to be younger than 16 at the time. When he was traded, the Angels though they were getting a 21 year old and got a 23 year old instead. But Felix was out of the game by age 26, so I think he just wasn't that good.

James' comment made me think of Keith Law's comment that the Gose trade was "insane" and what a different business James was in from what Law does currently. James sold quantitative methods analysis and ideas to people who wanted to understand the game better, Law largely sells opinions to people who will agree with them. I'm not being critical in this regard - I think since the advent of the internet and instant information the entire newspaper industry (except the NYT) is largely the same. Anyway...

Circling back, it will be interesting to see how the Gose/Wallace trade turns out. To my mind, it's exactly the kind of deal Anthopoulos should be making - trying to obtain potentially high-ceiling players at key positions for the type of player that others are prone to over-value. What made me feel particularly good about it was that the Jays had apparently scouted Gose for a long time and were closely familiar with Wallace, while the Astro's (who had no doubt done some scouting) were trading for a player they were less familiar with and trading a player they may have been less familiar with.

92-93 - Tuesday, August 31 2010 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#221768) #

In retrospect, does anyone think that Lind would have developed faster if he was made a full-time player in 2007 at the age of 23?

Yes. Is there anything to suggest otherwise? He excelled from the minute Clarence announced it was going to be a priority that Adam Lind be pencilled into the lineup every day.

Let's say, hypothetically, that the Jays are concerned that Snider is having trouble with off-speed pitches on the outside of the plate -- or some such thing... Meanwhile, in the batting cage, they've got Snider working on solving this problem.

It's extremely difficult (impossible?) to learn pitch recognition in the cage, and you still haven't explained the downside of allowing Snider to fail (which I don't think would happen) with a locked in lineup spot when it's the end of August and the Blue Jays are 13 games out of the playoffs. Talent will always rise to the top, 3-4 weeks of 2010 failure isn't going to hinder his future - it should only help.

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