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Nobody saw yesterday's trade coming. Anyone want to speculate on who's next?


Not me. I'll just keep refreshing MLB Trade Rumors. But if you want to take a stab at it, feel free...

Off day yesterday. Yankees win, Rays win, Orioles win, Red Sox idle. With those three wins, the AL East improves to 34 games over .500.

No more trades yet, far as I can tell. So in the meantime, let's talk about the Anthony Gose trade some more.

I like it.

Gose is a wild card, and I don't think any of us completely understand why the Jays are so high on him. But the shape of the Jays' roster is such that trading Wallace for a wild card makes perfect sense to me.

The Jays seem committed to several players: Wells, Escobar, Hill, Lind, Snider and Bautista (or Bautista haul) as starters for the next few years. Wells' contract isn't going anywhere. Escobar looks like a keeper. Hill and Lind might conceivably be moved, I guess - you can quibble with those. But Snider's potential is so great that the Jays have to give him every opportunity to succeed, and Bautista will either be the AL home run leader or fetch a blue chipper. All told, that's six established players who are likely to be entrenched in the lineup throughout 2011. That lineup has three uncertain positions: catcher, third base, and first base.

With the resounding success of Operation Stockpile Talent, the Jays are in a great position to turn those holes into strengths. They have loads of chips to play with: a surplus of worthwhile starting pitchers, plus several talented catchers in the low minors, plus whatever they can fetch for Downs, Buck, Lewis, Overbay, Encarnacion, Gregg, plus Payroll Flexibility... The challenge is to consolidate those chips into really good players at the uncertain positions.

You could trade for a catcher, if you're not sold on J.P. Arencibia or just don't want to be patient with him. (Wieters!) Or a third baseman, if you prefer to play Bautista in the outfield. In my opinion, though, the most reasonable place to try to improve on this foundation is by adding a Big Scary Bat at first base or DH (or outfield) through a trade. A superstar. Carlos Delgado.

Brett Wallace? He looks like a decent hitter - you could do worse than an .870 OPS in the PCL at age 23, you could also do better - but unless his stats are selling his talent way short, he's not that guy. He's a safely-above-replacement-level player at an abundant position. I can't shake the image of Eric Hinske. Useful, underestimated, but more or less fungible. I hadn't thought of it this way before the trade. But in hindsight it seems that the odds of Brett Wallace playing everyday for the Blue Jays were long unless his stock increased this year. Clearly, it hasn't.

If the Jays want to trade a decent prospect who plays a position where they're looking for someone great, why not do it? And if the decent guy can fetch a lottery ticket in the low minors who the Jays' scouts swear has shorter odds than advertised, I say what the hell. Go for it. In my view, it can only hurt us in an opportunity-cost sense - in other words, if there was a better offer out there for Wallace that Alex Anthopoulos wasn't aware of, this trade hurts by not improving us enough, by replacing the better haul with Gose.

I suppose it's also possible that Wallace will become a reliably average (or better!) first baseman. Again, in light of the Jays' trading position, I'm prepared to take that chance. Then again, if we're really entering a period of decreased offense, maybe it'll be harder than I think to convert all these starting pitchers into a power-hitting first baseman. Who knows, right?

Anyway, all the best to Brett Wallace in Houston. This trade must increase his stock. Hopefully Lance Berkman gets traded so Wallace can play everyday in the bigs with zero pressure on a wretched team.

Speaking of wretched teams, the Jays begin a three-game series against Cleveland tonight. Cleveland stormed out of the all-star break with five straight wins against the Tigers and Twins. Then the schedule got tougher. Cleveland just finished a seven-game homestand against the Rays and Yankees, which went exactly as well as you'd expect: 2-5. Their next stop after this weekend is Boston.

With the deadline less than two days away, Jamaican-born sinker artist Justin Masterson will tune up for his return to Fenway by facing Shaun Marcum. Jays -180, first pitch 7:07.
30 July 2010: Deadline Fever | 75 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Kelekin - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#219506) #
I pretty strongly believed Gregg or Frasor was going to Minnesota before Capps was traded.  So, no clue on that one.  I still think Buck could wind up a Tiger.  It's really hard to tell now, yesterday really threw me off.

If Wallace is gone, I would at least hope there is some possibility in the works for AA to go after some corner infielders now.  He believes SS, CF, and P are the premium positions - but based on statistics, 3B is one of the most lacking positions right now.  If you get any 3Bs with a lot of potential, that's huge, and that's what I am looking for right now. 

jerjapan - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#219508) #
In my view, it can only hurt us in an opportunity-cost sense - in other words, if there was a better offer out there for Wallace that Alex Anthopoulos wasn't aware of, this trade hurts by not improving us enough, by replacing the better haul with Gose.

Great point Alex and while I have a great deal of faith in AA and his team, this is my major reservation with the deal.  I can't help but wonder if AA's persistent pursuit of Gose may have raised the price for him.  K-Law and others share the view that the price was too high, but at least the Phillies were in agreement - I assume they simply insisted on Taylor instead of Gose, but we can't be sure. 
AWeb - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#219510) #
Teams that are looking to make the playoffs with a good chance of it (within 4 games - one series sweep - of the playoffs):
White Sox, Twins, Phillies, Braves, Cardinals, Reds, Giants, Padres

Teams that are likely to make the playoffs anyway, might want to strengthen (5+ games ahead now):
Yankees, Rays, Rangers.

Outside chances that might go for it (5-8 games out of a playoff spot):
Red Sox, Tigers, Mets/Marlins (?), Dodgers, Rockies

Who on the first list needs a catcher (Buck) or relief help (Downs/Gregg/Frasor), or would be willing to part with significant prospects for Bautista? The second list isn't likely to make marginal upgrades. The third list are teams that should probably not make a move, but some of them might anyway. The Tigers obviously need a catcher, the Cardinals could use one who can hit (but I suspect Larussa loves his Molina too much), as could the Rangers. My guess is Buck goes to Detroit or the Rangers for a B- prospect.


rtcaino - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#219511) #

I try not to post at work.

However, I just wanted to suggest that AA likely tried to flip Wallace to Philly for Gose, and was denied. Ergo, the asking price appears to be somewhat lower than it was before the Oswalt trade.

rfan8 - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#219512) #

I like the deal because it fits with our overall philosophy of acquiring high upside players at premium positions, which is a philosophy I think has the greatest chance of succeeding the way the divisions and rules have been set up.  

I like Wallace too and hope he does well, but you have to give to get and I don't mind giving a guy with a higher probability of succeeding with good upside for a guy with lower probability of succeeding with greater upside, if our scouts are telling us that the risk is worth it.  (On another note, I didn't realize we were employing former GMs as scouts but that's a different discussion). 

 

 

 

 

Mike Green - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#219514) #
Statistically, Hinske was considerably ahead of Wallace by 2001 (age 23 in the PCL).  Sacramento is a less favourable hitting environment than Las Vegas, and Hinske posted better raw numbers.  They were the same age exactly.  Plus Hinske had more speed (you can tell from the SB/CS totals), which ultimately led him to be a valuable utility player. 

Many scouts have held the view that Wallace would become a great hitter (.300, 30 homers, 60-70 walks) in time.  He may yet do that, but the odds are probably better that Gose turns into Willie Wilson.


bpoz - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#219515) #
Good summary Alex.
Thanks A Web. That was a nice analysis of contender categories.
Now what about that Detroit trade for Peralta. How good is Soto's potential? He looks OK to me, 19 with success at low A.
Peralta is paid by Cleveland for all of 2010. The $7 mil option for 2011 can be declined by Detroit. If declined would Detroit receive any draft picks for Peralta if he signs elsewhere. These rules have to be considered in trades. Maybe Cleveland was not so smart.

Downs & Buck can get us 3 or 4 picks next year so maybe we should keep them.
Ducey - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#219516) #

I can't shake the feeling that Jose Bautista is the second coming of Tony Batista - a third baseman who has bounced around a bit who comes to TO and explodes.

This coupled with the the fact there is some history of guys in all sports having a career years just before free agency and I am uncomfortable with the Jays keeping him.  Maybe rival GM's are sceptical too, and there is nothing of value for him out there?  But the Jays should sell high.

Has he done enough that the Jays would get a decent draft pick for him if they hold onto him?

SJE - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#219517) #
I got to think the Braves need Bautista. I would be shocked if the ground work for a trade has not been discussed during the Escobar-Gonzo trade. The Braves are slipping in the standings, Phillies have strenghtened their starting pitching,Bobby Cox`s last year at the helm, and a couple senior citizens manning the corner infield spots. Heck throw in Lyle Overbay to sweeten the prospect caliber.
Mike Green - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#219518) #
Ducey, Tony Batista's career path was nothing like Jose Bautista's.  Batista's OPS+ was 116 at age 24 in Arizona, 111 at age 25 in Arizona/Toronto and 102 in his "big" season (2000) at age 26 in Toronto.  2000, like 1987 and 1930, was a hitter's bacchanalia, and so you have to mentally apply a  adjustment to stats like 41 homers.  Batista's OBP in 2000 was .307; this was pretty damn bad. 

Bautista's power development has been accompanied with improved strike zone control (the 57/76 W/K rate is very good), and intelligent play in the field.  What I see is intelligent focus being brought to bear on all aspects of the game with a player who always had significant tools.  Usually, this would occur earlier in a player's career, but in Bautista's case, there are good explanations why it did not happen (as Magpie has described in another thread).  All of this does not guarantee that Bautista will continue at this high level, but it does suggest that you could weight his current year performance rather more heavily than usual vis a vis his career performance in assessing what he is likely to do in the next couple of years.
Flex - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#219520) #
Interesting interview with Gose here:

http://misterballz.blogspot.com/2009/08/anthony-gose-speaks-with-phoulballzcom.html

Our Anthony sounds like a nice but quite stubborn young man.
Mike Green - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#219526) #
Bryan Smith is a Gose skeptic.  I don't agree at all with his characterization of Gose's ceiling.  At age 19 , Willie Wilson was in the Midwest League (he turned 20 in July) and put up a .274/.314/.374 with a 26/99 W/K rate.  By age 23, he hit .315/.351/.420 with similar walk/strikeout numbers in the major leagues and was a 6-7 WAR player for a couple of years. 

Obviously Gose is not likely to become as good as Willie Wilson, but he's around where Wilson was. 
LouisvilleJayFan - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#219527) #
Hat askew = "Swagger" noted by Blue Jays' scouts.




Gerry - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#219528) #

The big unknown about Gose relates to his strikeouts.   Namely why is he striking out so much?  His other stats are good for a 19/20 year old in the FSL.

Some people look at the K's and project a hitter who has poor pitch recognition or a player who isn't great at hand/eye coordination.  As a result their evaluation assumes a player who will have trouble with higher level pitchers.

The job of the scout is to look at those strikeouts and say is there an issue with the swing that can be corrected?  Is the hitter too aggressive and can that be corrected?  Or are some of the issues in the previous paragraph fatal flaws. 

The Jays believe that the flaws can be corrected, according to AA they have had a lot of looks at Gose, both from last years scouts, this years scouts, and the Jays player development staff who are there close to Clearwater in Dunedin.  According to AA they all were positive on Gose. 

We may not see an improvement in the strikeout rate this season but we should see it next season if Gose is to live up to his expectation.

Mylegacy - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#219533) #
AA is going to have to kiss his fair share of frogs before one turns into a prince. Personally, I'd rather eventually he got fired for kissing too many frogs than for trying to ensure that we always stay at least one up on Baltimore. AA thinks he knows Wallace's top end - Overbay Lite. He dreams about a guy with 3 "70" tools (arm, speed, defense) and hears his scouts all think the offense will come.

Go with your gut AA - be true to yourself and your vision. If you're a visionary time will tell and the Hall awaits you - if not, you'll be fired - either way you did it your way. I really wish I had your shot - but then again you've earned it - I haven't.

Time for a scotch.

Wedding Singer - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#219534) #
Edwin Jackson to the White Sox for their top RH and LH pitching prospects?? Seems like the D-Backs did better for Jackson than they did for Haren. I guess Jackson plus yet another prospect must be going to the Nationals for Dunn. Seems like a steep price to pay for a Dunn rental.
sam - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#219535) #

Haha wellput Mylegacy. 

SJE - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#219536) #
Ben Sadler tweets that Mike Jacobs traded to the Jays for PTBNL to take Wallace`s spot in AAA. I hope there more than just minor leaguer getting traded by tomorrow at 4
Gerry - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#219537) #

From BA via twitter....

Blue Jays acquire Mike Jacobs from the Mets.  I presume it's to play first in Vegas, or in Toronto if Overbay is traded.  Trade is for a player to be named later which might not be much if the Jays are paying Jacobs salary.

John Northey - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#219540) #
Ick. I hope he is AAA only. 253/313/475 104 OPS+ lifetime over 2117 PA's. In Buffalo he was hitting 260/313/478. He is 29 years old. He was a catcher up to 2005 when the Mets converted him to first base.
Ryeguy - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#219542) #
Did anyone just catch JP on ESPN praising Dunn as the prized trade prospect left, especially for TB and NY? Oh the irony...

Not sure about this Jacobs trade... i guess when we find out what goes back we'll know better...

Thomas - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#219545) #
Mike Jacobs? Ugh.

I hope this is merely a roster filler for Vegas. If Overbay is dealt and they call someone up to split time with or spell Lind at first, I'd rather watch Dopirak than Jacobs.

Kelekin - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#219547) #
Dopirak is injured.  Cooper doesn't deserve the call-up.  We needed someone.
lexomatic - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#219548) #
+1 on the Jacobs indifference (to dislike).
as for Gose vs W. Wilson.... I read in Bill James that Whitey Herzog taught him to flick the ball into opp. field. Assuming this is true, Wilson might not have been the player he was (the same caption also says he was happy when he learned to drive the ball  and hit 5 HRs and also become a  260 hitter. SO in that sense I think it's a poor comparison. Not knowing much about Gose, or how true the WIlson info is, I don't konw what to think.

Jayzball123 - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#219549) #
Hi guys, first time poster on this site and I just wanted to share a post I made on another forum:

"

Been away on vacation for while and I come how to see a pretty major move that's gotten plenty of criticism, but here's why I really like it.

Point #1 - There are direct comparisons being made here between Gose's future bat and Wallace's future bat. This is irrelevant.

It's all about Wallace vs. league average 1B's and Gose vs. league average CF's. The #15 OPS ranked 1B is Lance Berkman with a .808 OPS while the #15 OPS ranked CF is Cody Ross with a .734 OPS. It's tough to wrap your head around, but if you can trade a league average player at one position for an above average player at another position, you should consider it a win.

Is Wallace really a top 10 OPS first baseman? He'd need to beat Fielder's .899 OPS to do that.

Just for argument's sake, if he does, Gose only has to beat Young's .795 OPS to crack CF top 10.

As tough as it sounds, Wallace was probably a league average (.808 OPS) or slightly above league average (#11-#14 range) first baseman if you believe most of the projections. If you think of it in those terms, it's much easier for the Jays to separate themselves from the pack, i.e. becoming above league average, by targeting a premium position like CF.

---

Point #2 -That was the offense, now let's talk defense.

At this point in the trade, people view Wallace as almost all-bat while Gose is almost no-bat.

Assuming both players are league average offensive players, and as I showed above, it's not too much of a stretch to say that could be the case, this is where Gose would blow Wallace completely out of the water.

Wallace could conceivably provide league average defense at 1B, or slightly above/below depending on how generous you'd like to be.

Gose on the other hand, has been described as a potential Gold Glove calibre defender with 70 ratings for defense, speed and arm. I'm pretty sure he's 2nd in the FSL in outfield assists this season and from CF to boot. Outstanding.

---
Point #3 - Take league and age into account before considering the numbers.

Even AA himself noted that perhaps Gose may have been promoted too aggressively, even though he's held his own so far in the FSL.

Here's what Sickels had to say about age-league relativity:

Rookie Ball: age 17 or 18. Anyone older than that is questionable.
Short-season A: ages19-20. 21 for a guy coming out of a four year college in his draft year is OK.
Low A: ages 19-21. 22…depends. 23 is old.
HighA: ages 20-22. 23…depends. 24 is old.
Double-A: ages 22-23. 24…depends. 25 is old.
Triple-A: ages 23-24. 25…depends. 26 is old

So let's run with that.

Considering he's in his age 19-20 season, Gose should probably be in short season A. But let's fast track him a bit, and put him in low A.

Taking his .263/.325/.385 line and plugging it into the equivalency calculator yields a .305/.366/.452 line in low A. That's where he would be if he was only promoted slightly aggressively.

The bat doesn't look too bad now, does it?

Wallace as a 23-24 year old in AAA Vegas should actually get a stat line reduction to normalize it, but we'll leave that for now.

---

The Bottom Line:

This is how easily this trade could become a win.

Wallace is league average offensively for 1B, league average defensively. Not a stretch.

Gose is league average offensively for CF, well above league average defensively. Not a stretch.

I'm in the minority, but I think this is a no-brainer."

h ttp://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-bluejays&tid=67936


BalzacChieftain - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#219550) #

Jayson Stark of ESPN is reporting that Frasor might be more likely to go before the deadline than Downs, as AA as we all know seems to be asking for the moon for him.  A tidbit that interested me was that if we offer Frasor arbitration at the end of the year, he would probably just accept it and we might be stick with a $3-4MM reliever on our hands, which, in my opinion, would be a little much for nearly any version of him.

Diverging from the relief options, anyone else surprised we haven't heard many John Buck rumours?  I've been a longtime reader of this site and it seems the general concensus is that JPA will get a shot in September to ply his trade with the big club.  I suppose this could be done with 3 catchers on the roster, but just seems odd to me that there doesn't seem to be much action on Buck considering he's not part of the club's long term future.  However, it could be AA lining something up and keeping the cards close to his chest.  I know I was caught by surprise by both the Wallace and Gonzalez deals.

 

Mick Doherty - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#219552) #

Jayz123,

Nicely put. Welcome to Batter's Box, and we'll look forward to more well-thought-out posts from you in the future. I don't buy all your premises ("if you can trade a league average player at one position for an above average player at another position, you should consider it a win." may be generally true, but is specifically debatable) in this particular argument, but it was well-thought and presented.

My compliments, as others have noted in the thread, to the significantly civil and fact-based (non-flame) tone of this entire thread. Kudos, all!

Gerry - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#219555) #

Balzac and Jays123: welcome to Da Box.

Just because you are not hearing much on Buck or Downs doesn't mean a deal won't be done.  AA and his front office have done a great job of keeping things close to their chest.  There was no advance rumors of the Escobar, Wallace or Jacobs deals.  The Jays could be about to announce a deal in the next few minutes for all we know.  The Jays are probably asking a lot for Downs and Buck but they are the most attractive players available at their positions.  If a deal is on the table both sides are holding out to the last minute to see who blinks first.

With regard to the trade I think you go too far to say its a no-brainer.  Gose has a lot of development to go with the bat to get there.  Gose has more value than just his bat and in that you are right but Wallace's bat is the safer bet right now. 

TamRa - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#219556) #
28 players in the FSL had a higher OPS than Gose on the day of the trade. It's interesting to note their age.

1. 22 years, as of next tuesday
2. 25 years, 9 months
3. 25 y, 4 m
4. 24 y (as of this coming August 9)
5. 22 y 10 m
6. 21.9
7. 24
8. 22.10
9. 24.2 (This guy's listed first name is Rebel!)
10. 23.6
11. (McDade) 21.3
12. 24 (as of 8/4/10)
13. 23.9
14. 24.3
15. 23.2
16. 22.5
17. 23.3
18. 24
19. 22 (as of 8/12)
20. 20.4 (.747)
21. 23.7
22. 24.9
23. 23.7
24. 21.6 (.727)
25. (Pastornicky) 20.7 (.724)
26. (d'Arnaud) 21.6 (.713)
27. 24.6
28. 23.8
29. GOSE  - 20 as of 8/10 (.710)
30.

the youngest person above Gose is Pastornicky at 20.7 (more on that in a sec) , and next after that is McDade at 21.3 and then d'Arnaud at 21.6

Other hitters under 20 in the FSL:

Daniel Fields - 19.6 (.699)

Okay, I've gone through #38, who's hitting .684 and got tired of looking - #38 is Tim Beckham who, as far as I know, is still considered a premium prospect and a coveted talent. He's 20 years and 6 months old.

I trust that's enough to make the point.

now, consider this - Da Box LOVES Tyler Pastornicky and widely considered him a top 10 talent in our organization. They mourned hisdeparture even if they acknowledged the benefit of getting Esco.

Compare:

TP: .258 / .348 / .376 / .724 / 24 SB
AG: .263 / .325 / .385 / .710 / 36 SB

TP get him on the BB/K ratios to be sure. But given the drooling of the scouts, they are close enough in results that anyone who thought that pastornicky aquitted himself well at such a young age in the FSL ought to similarly be impressed with Gose.

d'Arnaud is widely considered a top 100 talent and his line is almost identical to Gose, and he's over a year and a half older (albeit the expectations for catchers are a bit lower).

finally there's this, from John Lott on Twitter:

19-yr-old season
Carl Crawford: .274/.323/.352, 36 SB, 20 CS;
Anthony Gose: .263/.325/.385, 36 SB, 27 CS


So until i see different, I'm gonna call Gose our own Carl Crawford - except in CF


Gerry - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#219557) #
I don't have a problem with Gose's base hitting stats for a young player in high A.  The concern is over his strikeouts and that needs to be fixed before he moves up the ladder.
TamRa - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#219558) #
addendum to above - Carl Crawford was in AA when he was 19. John Lott didn't mention that.
Mike Green - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#219559) #
AA's style is to be pretty quiet before the deal is done, and relentlessly positive afterward.  He seems to lavish praise on departing players above what might be necessary, and to talk up new arrivals maybe a little more than would be ideal.  That style will work, as long as listeners don't assume the literal truth of his post-trade comments later on when the trade/acquisition doesn't work out. 
John Northey - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#219561) #
I think AA learned a valuable lesson from JP. Namely, don't do your trades in the media. There have been reports that a deal with SF along the Rios for Cain or Lincecum was possible before it hit the media. As I recall, SF seemed to be very seriously considering it but the media and fan pressure was to not do it. Mix in how horribly wrong the attempt at a Halladay mid-season deal went (given the interview with Mrs. Halladay in the Star) and you can see the dangers of letting too much get out.

A few details have escaped, Downs for super-prospects from NYY or Boston for example, but the trades that have happened have stayed silent. One can't help but wonder if certain trades are being considered then someone in the other teams front office goes "what idiot would do this, I'll get it out to the media and hopefully they'll stop it".

I know I'm hoping AA has a big trade or two coming in the next 24 hours. If for no other reason than it is fun to debate them afterwards :)
Mike Green - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#219562) #
Will, Carl Crawford was in double A at age 19 and struck out less often than Gose (and had done very well in the Sally League at 18 whereas Gose scraped through).  Overall, Crawford was substantially ahead of him with the bat (but didn't have anything close to his arm). 
85bluejay - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#219563) #

While it would be fun if AA manages a trade or 2 - I would rather take the draft picks than end up with the John Hattigs

of the world. 

bpoz - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#219564) #
Keith Law was on the Fan590 this afternoon. He spoke about JP and his take on the Wallace/Gose trade.
I am very grateful to JP.
JP had his own style of drafting. According to Law he only wanted "polished, close to ready draft picks", so Gose would never be considered. JP drafted Brian Grant in 2002 (HS RHP)but generally stayed away from HS players but things changed in 2006 with T Snider and later he made many HS picks. JP is responsible for our wealth of pitching so "Thank You JP". You sure could pick college pitchers.

In 2008 when I found this site our SPs were Halladay, Burnett,Marcum,McGowan and Litch with Purcey as our top call-up if necessary, according to my memory. The pitching pool has deepened since then.

Law did not like the Wallace trade from the Jays side. He said toolsy hi-ceiling raw players are easy to get at the July 31st trade deadline for polished almost ready prospects like Wallace and we should have got more. He did not say it but "I guess" veterans like A Gon,Buck,Downs,Greg etc... will also fetch Hi-ceiling raw prospects.
Well it took a while but AA got his man. Congratulations AA!!
I hope Law is right about July 31st being the best time to shop for Hi-ceiling raw prospects. What is on your shopping list AA?
Can we get someone like AJ Jimenez for one of our relievers? I would be happy with that. Am I asking for too little. I can wait 3-5 years for him if he ever arrives. Or take the draft picks next year if they sign elsewhere.
85bluejay - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#219565) #

I'm glad that Law didn't like the Gose/Wallace trade from the Jays side - He absolutely savaged the Escobar trade

from the Jays side and so far I'm loving it. 

smcs - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#219568) #

While it would be fun if AA manages a trade or 2 - I would rather take the draft picks than end up with the John Hattigs of the world. 

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure that AA agrees with you on this point.  In reality, though, the draft picks are as likely to end up not making the majors as any prospects that might be traded for.  I've always been interested in the optics of a draft pick versus the reality.  I'm not sure how much work has been done in the baseball on this topic, but there has been work done in the NFL in regards to market value of draft picks versus the performance value of the players drafted.  Essentially, the earlier picks are overvalued ("The Losers Curse" by Richard Thaler).  Obviously there are more variables in baseball than football, so a study of this ilk would be more difficult (mandatory signing dates, multiple years of eligibility, time between year drafted and years providing value in majors etc.).  My take from this is that we (fans, executives, reporters etc.) place an arbitrarily high value on the right to choose.  Right now, a 2011 1st round draft pick could be another Travis Snider.  Anthony Gose (or similar) isn't as good as Travis Snider (assuming this for the sake of the argument), so let's take the draft pick.  What we don't think is that that same pick could also be David Cooper or Miguel Negron or Russ Adams and so on.  In general, I think we as fans grossly overvalue the potential of a draft pick versus the reality of a partially developed player.  We fall in love with the idea of what could be over the reality of what is.  So draft picks over John Hattig?  Sure.  At worst, the draft picks will provide as much value as John Hattig, which is to say no value.  Draft picks over Jesus Montero or Casey Kelly?  No way.

The obvious difficulty is deciding where to draw the line between the draft picks and the prospects.

Alex Obal - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#219569) #
Mike: I don't agree at all with [Smith's] characterization of Gose's ceiling.

I don't get his argument at all. Are there any reasonable conclusions you can draw about a player's ceiling from his stats as a 19-year-old in A-ball?
LouisvilleJayFan - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#219570) #
Berkman is apparently now a Yankee. Wonder if this means Wallace will now get his shot?
Mick Doherty - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#219571) #

the Cardinals could use one who can hit (but I suspect Larussa loves his Molina too much), as could the Rangers. My guess is Buck goes to Detroit or the Rangers for a B- prospect.

You forget, the Rangers now also have a Molina in house. Neither Jarrod Saltalamacchi or Taylor Teagarden is going to help much this year (though Tea did homer last night) but one of them will be the Catcher of the Future that Gerald Laird was supposed to be. Molina has been a terrific pickup so far, so the Rangers will focus on possibly another pitcher and getting someone to play corner IF, a Jorge Cantu type ... oh, wait ...

jerjapan - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#219573) #
The Rangers just grabbed Christian Guzman too ... with him and Cantu added to the IF depth, Overbay to Texas seems pretty unlikely. 
scottt - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#219575) #
Detroit is more or less out of contention.

Maybe the Angels could use Overbay.

Hmm, kinda weird to see Snider promoted to the bench.

Mike Green - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#219577) #
Alex, you certainly cannot draw any conclusions about a player's ceiling from his statistics as a 19 year old in high A when you know that he can hit a baseball, he can hit the ball over the fence, he can run like the wind and he can throw 95 mph off the mound.  All right, I'll be adventurous.  His ceiling as a pitcher is Dave Stieb. 

To be fair, Brett Wallace's ceiling is pretty high too.  He's not going to steal 30 bases, but there is nothing in his record that says he cannot hit .300 with 35-40 homers and 60-70 walks when he's 27-28 years old. 

It's nice to come home to see that Shaun Marcum was his dominant self. 



brent - Friday, July 30 2010 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#219579) #
Holy crap! Baseball-reference now has all that good contract information. I still like the way it's laid out at Cot's contracts, though.
Flex - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#219582) #
I'm so impressed with Marcum tonight, not just for the great pitching performance, but for doing it while being terribly ill. Apparently he threw up before the game and immediately after it as well. How a guy can be that sick and yet perform at a high level I don't know. It amazes me and it's one of the things that separates high-level athletes from schmoes like me who don't want to move when they get that sick.

My hat off to Marcum.
brent - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:35 AM EDT (#219583) #
I am really enjoying the wins now because the next two months are going to probably be the roughest in quite some time.
jerjapan - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 02:03 AM EDT (#219585) #
Four straight wins, ten and four since the break - for the first time since, uhh, the early nineties, I'm excited to see a tough schedule ahead for this team.  If they want to play in the AL east, they've got to play with the big boys, and they do have some serious momentum right now.  Bautista is playing out of his mind, and the starting rotation looks great.   
Flex - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#219589) #
The yawning chasm of no trade news is killing me this morning.
LouisvilleJayFan - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#219590) #
I have a fear of an anti-climactic day/night.
danjulien - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#219593) #
To me it's pretty simple on Downs, if he's a Type A and no one wants to give up the picks, we should have a chance to keep a great set up man at a good price.  If somebody signs him, it's probably someone who's already signed a Type A player (say Boston with all that cap space) so we end up with a sandwich and a 2nd.  I don't think anybody signs him as their first Type A option
lexomatic - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#219594) #
I was at last night's game. my first of the season (real life intervenes). I've decided I'm never going to anotehr Fan Friday again. So much B.S. that takes away from the game and just causes headaches. It was a great game though. Until the big bat-around inning Marcum looked untouchable (i don't think anythign got out of the infield), and after he was still confusing the poor cleveland batters. EE is now the only major league ball player I've ever seen flinch, and turn away from a ball hit right at him (albeit a very ahrd hit ball). Bautista is as locked in as anyone I've ever seen, and if he doesn't win player of the week and month whoever does better be having an all-time great week/month.
ZekeBella - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#219596) #
The excitement about the Jacobs trade matches that of the Bautista trade last summer. None!  Both middle-aged (for baseball) fringe type players with a record of some pop in the past.  Is it too much to hope for lightning to strike again?   Go get 'em Greek!
China fan - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#219597) #
For anyone who saw the game yesterday:  The Globe and Mail reports that Escobar was "really hotdogging it" on a routine grounder from Jason Donald in the 6th inning that he turned into a throwing error.  Is that an accurate description?  If so, I wonder if we're seeing the first signs of what frustrated the Braves fans and management.   Escobar is an incredible talent, both defensively and offensively, but too much hot-dogging could start to drive us crazy too.   It's much too early to draw any conclusions, of course, but I wonder if the early warning signs are there -- and whether the Jays coaching staff should start discussing it with him ASAP.
Flex - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#219598) #
China Fan, yes, it was the first play I've seen from Escobar that I thought, "here's what they didn't like about him in Atlanta." To my eyes, he didn't so much hot dog it as treat the whole play much too casually, as if he was playing around.

But I also saw that immediately after the play he was chagrined. The expression in his eyes was almost ashamed. He didn't treat the mistake lightly. It was almost as if he was thinking, "oh no, they're going to start thinking badly of me here too."
Mylegacy - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#219599) #
China fan - Escobar is not a kid he's 27 - he'll be 28 in November. But he plays like a gifted, natural child- which is what he REALLY is. He is so naturally talented that he just reacts - that throw behind his back to Hill - pure reaction under pressure, that push bunt when Lewis was stealing 2nd that went for a single - pure reaction. He runs very hard to 1st - when he thinks he has a chance to make it - jogs if he thinks he can't make it.

Escobar is a beautiful, natural gifted man child and he will dazzle and disappoint. Dazzle more often. The more you get him thinking the less he will dazzle. As I said in an earlier thread - Yunel is who he is. A wildly gifted man child. He will NEVER disappoint on purpose - he deeply regrets that throw - Cito might be the only guy in the game that might be able to encourage him to concentrate on the routine play while letting his gifts take over on the hard ones. If he is messed with - like in Atlanta - he will think himself into more mistakes.

Genius can't be pushed - it often doesn't know what makes it genus - it only knows it has to do it its way. Leave the kid be - mostly we'll be dazzled by the highlight reels.



China fan - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#219600) #
Thanks, Flex.   I hope your interpretation is right.  It's his first error since the trade, so it's much too early to get worried about him.  If there's a few more cases like that one, it will become a concern.  But for now, I'm content to be patient and wait and see.
China fan - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#219601) #
Today's lineup is now up.  Bautista, Overbay, Encarnacion -- they're all in the lineup today for the 1 pm start, so presumably they are not on the verge of being traded.  Buck is not in the lineup, but it's unclear if that means anything.
Dewey - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#219602) #
My Legacy's read on Escobar seems right to me.  Let him be.  Anyone who saw Ricky Henderson play saw a showboat:  it's just part of who he was.  And if you can do it, it ain't bragging.
Kasi - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#219603) #
Shame not to have Snider in there again. I don't see the point in him being a bench hitter. He needs to be in there 6 days out of 7 to help develop him.
Mike Green - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#219604) #
It's Deadline day, and the time is 4 p.m.  Late scratches, players being pulled from the game, etc are all part of the day.  I am pretty sure that Snider will either be playing most of the time or will be back in New Hampshire in short order, as of tomorrow.  Patience.
sam - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#219605) #
Serious talks apparently with the Giants about one of Downs and Frasor
lexomatic - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#219606) #
i coudln't se the Escobar error ChinaFan, so I'll defer what other people already said.
as for Bautista's trade value.. 13/19 this week. OPS raise 67 points on the season. that's impressive 100 games in for one week.

TamRa - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#219607) #
To me it's pretty simple on Downs, if he's a Type A and no one wants to give up the picks, we should have a chance to keep a great set up man at a good price.  If somebody signs him, it's probably someone who's already signed a Type A player (say Boston with all that cap space) so we end up with a sandwich and a 2nd.  I don't think anybody signs him as their first Type A option

I'm inclined to agree, but stranger things have happened.
SJE - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#219612) #
Looks like Tim Collins is trying to follow Brett Wallace`s path as he is on the move again. No trades! It could make for an interesting 2011 June draft. I dont know how we can get somebody to bite on Frasor if he remains a Type A
PeteMoss - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#219613) #
If Frasor's ends up a Type A... I can't imagine anyone signing him if he's offered arb. Downs, I imagine someone will go after either way. Frasor I believe is right at the bottom of the A's... so I guess the hope is he'd slide down to B and end up with the comp pick.
scottt - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#219614) #
Collins could move again as KC has other needs than a closer.
TamRa - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#219616) #
we have several guys who will clear waivers and it's not impossible the jays would match up with the claiming team on those who don't.

look for Overbay, EE, Tallet (as if), Frasor, Wells, McDonald, Camp, and maybe Gregg to be put through right away and hope they clear.

Downs, Buck and JB will be run through at some point but they may think there's some strategic advantage in waiting a couple of weeks to try that.



SJE - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#219617) #

While it would seem to most people, me included, that  the Jays are on the right path long term, I find it percular that there isn`t one rookie in the lineup. Before Gonzo left the Jays average age was very similar to the Yankees. The Jays just seem to have guys in their minor league system that are age wise that are at the point of as the late Tom Cheek would say ``its time to fish or cut bait``. Age wise JPA, Magnuson,Accardo.Thames,Emaus,Bowman,Reonke and Lowen. Even Drabek and Stewart are not just couple years out of high school.

greenfrog - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#219619) #
It's amazing how hard it is to pry away talent at the deadline these days. Lots of contenders settled for lesser players than Downs and Bautista for the sake of hanging on to their better prospects.
85bluejay - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#219622) #

The only deadline deal I liked for sellers is what Pittsburgh got for Dotel - All the other deals were mostly salary

relief and middling prospects - I'm happy AA said no if those were the kind of offers he received - I'll happily take

the draft picks especially in a deep draft and if the Jays continue to draft projectable young players like Sanchez.

SJE - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#219624) #

I know Buck,Gregg, and Camp are all type B  in the Elias Rankings but are they all free agents at the end of the year. I now there is a number of options on Gregg`s contract. This is probably a stupid question but can you not pick up an option but offer arbitration. I can see somebody signing Downs even though he is type A, since the that we likely sign Downs is probably a penant contender so it will probably cost them only a second or third rounder.If the Yankees sign Crawford and Lee then Downs cost them a 3rd rounder which is another reason why the big teams would not part with their prospect.

 

SJE - Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#219625) #

I know Buck,Gregg, and Camp are all type B  in the Elias Rankings but are they all free agents at the end of the year. I now there is a number of options on Gregg`s contract. This is probably a stupid question but can you not pick up an option but offer arbitration. I can see somebody signing Downs even though he is type A, since the that we likely sign Downs is probably a penant contender so it will probably cost them only a second or third rounder.If the Yankees sign Crawford and Lee then Downs cost them a 3rd rounder which is another reason why the big teams would not part with their prospect.

 

Sano - Sunday, August 01 2010 @ 04:14 AM EDT (#219635) #
Great interview with AA here. It seems like he did a lot of what we've been talking about in terms of the Gose-Wallace trade.

http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20100731_171805_3512
TamRa - Sunday, August 01 2010 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#219644) #
can you not pick up an option but offer arbitration?

Yes, it's been asked of knowledgable people publicly and the answer is always yes.

then Downs cost them a 3rd rounder which is another reason why the big teams would not part with their prospect.


In that unfortunate event, will still get the sandwich pick and we've gotten a LOT of value over the years out of that pick.

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