why are the jays looking for middle infield help? Escobar and Hill are not enough?

How bad is Lewis's ankle injury? Does that mean they will call Snider back?

I think you can take a lot of rumors, especially ones from Jon Heyman with a grain of salt (I'm personally not a huge Heyman fan but he does have some interesting nuggets from time to time). They have their insider sources but they are wrong more often than they are right.

from the official site:
Lewis exited the game in the sixth inning with a sore right ankle after twisting the foot while running the bases three innings earlier. An X-ray revealed no structural damage, and the left fielder is considered day-to-day. He hopes to be back in the lineup soon for the Blue Jays.
"They don't think it's anything serious," Lewis said.

MLBTR is the best website on the internet out of any sport when it comes to 'rumors'.  They do it with integrity, unlike hockey (what a joke hockey journalism has become).  And they proved it even more so today.  They even took Jon Heyman's comment on the Jays with a grain of salt in how they wrote it. 

I also was really amused by one commenter named "Tony" who said "Mr. Batista" took steroids.  There's some sort of irony in that.

On another note, who would you guys like to see traded out of guys -not- commonly mentioned?

The Jays were looking for middle infield help.

Rookie Ball: age 17 or 18. Anyone older than that is questionable.
Short-season A: ages19-20. 21 for a guy coming out of a four year college in his draft year is OK.
Low A: ages 19-21. 22…depends. 23 is old.
HighA: ages 20-22. 23…depends. 24 is old.
Double-A: ages 22-23. 24…depends. 25 is old.
Triple-A: ages 23-24. 25…depends. 26 is old

John Sickels' rule of thumb

 

If Lewis is unable to play today, along with Escobar, the Jays will play today's game with a bench consisting of Jose Molina. Gotta love carrying 46745687 pitchers, give or take a couple.

Lets see if they send Zep down and maybe bring up McCoy. McCoy can pinch run and do other things. D Wise will replace F Lewis.
Zep can make a AAA start if he has to stay 10 days (going down rules).
They absolutely have to have a speedster to pinch run in the late innings. Cito uses pinch runners quite often.

Let's not underestimate the desperation factor when teams are looking upgrade at the deadline. Let's grade GM years without a playoff appearance.

AL East

NY $$$$ - last years champions score- 0

Bos - 0 but don't want  the Yankees to repeat

Tampa - 1 but with payroll cuts coming are more desperate

Tor 0/ 16 years since p.o. / Balt - 2.5/ 12 years since p.o. sellers

AL Central

CWS - 1

Det - 3

Minn - 0

AL West

Tex - 10 but lead the division comfortably and already acquired Lee

LAA - 0

Oak - 3 maybe already out of the race and Beane could turn them into sellers

NL East

Atl - 4 but have a nice lead

NYM - 3

Phil - 0

NL Central

St.L - 0

Cin - 15 years without p.o. but Jocketty only has 2 years in Cin

NL West

SD - 3

SF - 6

Col - 0

LA - 0

 

I see a lot of teams that are not going to be shelling out for Jays' players, but I would be busy on the phone with deep pockets teams (NYY, Bos) and with Cin and SF. If Atlanta is serious about a WS run, I would be busy with them too. Minn and LA aren't going to be trading prospects probably, so I wouldn't put too many resources into them. I think GM AA is going to have his work cut out for him with teams that think they already have enough in house to win and aren't motivated buyers.

Nice pitching match-up this afternoon- Romero vs. Verlander.  With the sun shining, it might be a good idea to find a patio with some beverages and a large screen nearby.  Just tell the boss that you're doing a good thing for the environment by not working when it is hot...

McCoy is back up. Zep to AAA. Escobar returns to the starting lineup today. All per rotoworld.

With all the trouble Gregg has been having lately it's a shame the Jays don't have Gustavo Chacin anymore to fill the void. With Lindstom & Lyon already burned last night he saved the game for the Astros in typical Gustavo fashion, earning the SV with 1ip 2h 2er 2bb 0k 1hr on 34 pitches. The guy just knows how to win.

Another game where Cito leaves the starter and reliever out to dry. I'm sick and tired of this "let the starter have the chance for the first guy and if he messes it up, pull him and put the reliever in the stretch immediately" mentality he always does. He puts his relievers in the worst spot to hold leads/ties.

Another game where Cito leaves the starter and reliever out to dry.

Against stupidity and ignorance, the gods themselves struggle in vain. At least 90% of major league managers would have left their LH starter, who had thrown less than 100 pitches, in to face the LH batter leading off the inning. It's an utterly conventional and logical thing to do. Shawn Camp has exactly 1 Loss and 1 Blown Save (in a game the Jays won anyway) on the season, so it doesn't seem to have affected him too badly.

[Chacin] saved the game for the Astros in typical Gustavo fashion

The cheapest save possible, and it's remarkable how rare such saves actually are. There are far, far more cheap Wins, and it's only partially because every game sees someone get a Win.

Magpie:

1) Romero had thrown 98 pitches already
2) He had been escaping jams the last several innings
3) I don't think you're right that Cito would have taken Romero out if he had gotten one batter out. He was in there for the inning or until he let a runner on. This is what I object to, since even if he had gone 3 up and 3 down he would be past 110 pitches, something we don't need for our young pitchers.
4) Relievers statistically (of course) do better when they come in with no one on.

Your 2010 AL bullpens.

RK    TEAM            GP    W    L    ERA    SV  BLSV    IP     H   HR   ER    R   BB    SO   BAVG    OBP    SLG    OPS
 1    Minnesota       90     9   11   3.09   22   10    265.1  246  24    91  100   78   191  .246    .306    .380    .685
 2    Texas           90    20   14   3.24   30   12    299.2  254  29   108  111  122   261  .233    .316    .364    .679
 3    Tampa Bay       90    13    7   3.34   28    8    256.1  213  22    95  102   83   228  .226    .290    .371    .660
 4    Detroit         91    18   10   3.52   22    5    286.1  260  17   112  120  125   197  .246    .329    .350    .679
 5    Chicago Sox     90    12   10   3.62   28    8    248.1  239  19   100  110  104   252  .252    .331    .366    .697
 6    Toronto         93    14   15   3.83   25   12    284    259  27   121  130  117   244  .243    .326    .385    .711
 7    Oakland         93    14   16   3.93   23    8    279.2  265  37   122  133  121   246  .251    .329    .415    .743
      League Average  90    13   13   3.97   24   11    270    260  28   119  128  113   222  .253    .330    .397    .727
 8    NY Yankees      91    11   10   4.22   23   11    247.2  230  27   116  122   96   213  .246    .321    .381    .702
 9    Kansas City     90    14   15   4.26   27   13    287.1  300  33   136  143  117   214  .271    .344    .421    .765
10    Baltimore       93    14   16   4.29   18   15    302    322  33   144  157  126   241  .274    .346    .416    .762
11    Boston          92    11   14   4.42   25   12    271    252  41   133  139  113   211  .247    .319    .430    .749
12    Cleveland       89     9   15   4.47   18   12    265.2  279  26   132  145  136   197  .273    .362    .427    .789
13    LA Angels       89    10    8   4.58   24   10    253.1  263  23   129  143  136   227  .265    .358    .407    .765
14    Seattle         85    12   22   4.71   19   13    241    252  28   126  138  102   181  .272    .345    .442    .787

Kevin Gregg notwithstanding...

He was in there for the inning or until he let a runner on.

Says who? This is just fantasy....

Having Romero face Damon was entirely reasonable. Once he lost him, going to Camp was entirely reasonable (especially if you compare Camp's performance with runners on base to when the bases are empty.)

It didn't work out. That's baseball.

I'm as vocal as anyone when Clarence makes strange decisions, but bringing Ricky out to start the 8th wasn't one of them. Sure, he could have gone to Downs to start the inning, but the Jays pen has seen its fair share of work lately and Downs himself had a stiff neck going into the break so it's possible he's still not completely over it. Allowing Ricky to face the LHB at 98 pitches and taking it from there was very reasonable, as was Ricky's anger towards the umpire for calling at least 2 strikes in the at bat as balls. I thought the 2-0 pitch was better than the 3-0 one, and like Damon the ump was completely fooled by the first pitch curveball Ricky threw for a "strike". Sometimes things just don't go your team's way.

I hope the coaches have a good talk with Yunel about making the 3rd out at 3rd base on a double (even if he was safe) in a tie game. It was also disappointing when they stranded Wise's one out triple - the Jays seem to be stranding an awful lot of runners at 3rd with less than 2 outs since the break, with Encarnacion standing out. He's 0/5 with 2 Ks and 2 DPs in that spot.

Against stupidity and ignorance, the gods themselves struggle in vain.

Of all the hindsights in the world, 20-20 hindsight is the best.

"let the starter have the chance for the first guy and if he messes it up, pull him and put the reliever in the stretch immediately"

Like most late-inning relievers, Downs, Frasor, Camp and Gregg all pitch exclusively from the stretch. Janssen, Tallet and Rzepczynski don't.

Of all the hindsights in the world, 20-20 hindsight is the best

Maybe not… I'd heard that Ted williams' hindsight was 20/10. Or something like that.

Says who? This is just fantasy....

Says his track record as a manager. I know you're trying your best to be offensive here, but you could at least look at the facts before you spout out at the mouth here. I went back and looked at every start this year for the Jays. You say it is a conventional thing for a manager to let their starter face a batter they have an advantage over and then pull the pitcher after getting the one out, thus to have the reliever coming in face the better match up. Yes this is good logic and it would be good if our manager followed this. The problem is Cito is not this manager.

I went tonight and yeah blew a good bit of time looking up all our starts from april to now. There is a grand total of 1 time where a starting pitcher got the first out in an inning and was pulled. That was Brett Cecil who got relieved by Roenicke. Other then that there has been no sign that this is conventional behavior for Cito Gaston at all. What he did (and this is verified by his track record) is he lets starters go out and then when they screw up (when past their pitch limit) they get yanked for the bullpen. I saw numerous occasions of 6.1 innings that went out followed by a single or walk and then a pull. And many other variations of that (like the immediate yank after a leadoff walk/hit). There was just one time where he pulled a starter with the bases empty and in the middle of an inning. One! So no you're wrong and the facts show it.

As for Alex's good point about the stretch/windup, well thanks. The point still stands in that relievers do better when they can come in with the bases empty. That is fact.

It does seem to me that all of the Jay starters have lost a bit since the beginning of the season.  It might be time for Brad Mills. 

I would agree Mike. Romero is gutting his games out now. I'm impressed he is still getting good results, but his Ks have dropped dramatically and he's relying much more on the defense to get him out of jams. That was a very nice play by Overbay that likely saved them a run when he got Miguel at 3rd.

Kasi, you seem to be relatively new to this site, so we'll excuse your ignorance about the veterans here, but for you to accuse Magpie of deliberately being "offensive" -- or, worse yet, of "spouting" an opinion without facts -- is just ludicrously laughable.  Sometime, when you have time, you should go back and look at the track record of Magpie's contributions to this site. Then maybe don't dismiss his contributions as mere insults or wild opinions.

Your other main point seems to be: Cito Gaston should be pulling his starting pitchers BEFORE they get into trouble.  Well, duh.  Very insightful.  And if you possess a crystal ball that can predict exactly when a pitcher will get into trouble, you should be using that crystal ball to make a fortune on the stock market, rather than distracting yourself with the trivialities of baseball.  The fact is, nobody knows when a starting pitcher will run out of gas, and it's absurd for you to pretend -- with 20-20 hindsight -- that you (and not Gaston) can predict when a pitcher will get into trouble.  Fact:  a pitcher's success in any specific inning is not determined by the number of "jams" he had in earlier innings.  Many pitchers, obviously, have baserunners in the early innings or middle innings and then have clean innings later.  Fact: a pitch count is not necessarily the only way to determine when a pitcher should be pulled.  Fact: a pitch count of 98 for Ricky Romero is not, historically, clear evidence that he should be immediately pulled.  Baseball is just not as simple as pitch counts and innings.  There are many, many factors that go into the decision about when to pull a pitcher, and I trust Cito Gaston to be shrewder than the Internet hordes on the question of when to pull his pitchers.   Fact:  if Gaston pulled his starting pitchers BEFORE they got into any kind of trouble in every game, his bullpen would be burned out by about June 1 of every season, his starting rotation would never learn how to pitch out of jams, and nobody would be capable of throwing more than 95 pitches in a game.  Is this what you want from the Jays pitching staff?

Now boys, tut-tut. No flame wars here on Da Box. We be nice civilized folks here! China Fan, I completely agree with your comments about Mags -- he's the best of us roster folks, in both experience and talent (not to mention sheer word count! but I digress ...) Kasi, you are welcome to direct your comments at anyone here, of course, but as CF hints, you may have selected an ... ambitious ... target to start off.

Please do feel free to bring strong opinions to Da Box, that may agree OR contraindicate something a roster member (or anyone else) has posted. But, per our literally years of civil discourse here -- both of you! -- let's keep the light sabers in the "off" position.

I made a post and got called stupid and ignorant. I evenhandedly responded to that post and got mocked again. I want of course to be involved in baseball discussion. But attack the argument, not the person. There is no need to make personal attacks on people, and it is something I've seen here numerous times recently. (I've read at this site much longer then I posted, probably read here off and on for 2+ years) If I am to expect this to be standard faire here, there are other places I can go I'm sure.

As to the argument you made, I agree with certain points, but you seem to be arguing with points that I didn't make. We know already from what AA and Cito are saying (and doing) that pitchers counts and innings are being severely watched. We just did a 6 man rotation for this last cycle in order to spare people innings and pitches, even our workhorses Marcum and Romero.

The majority of my argument was in response to Magpie's suggestion that Cito kept the starter in to face the lefty because of superior match-ups. Thus when the first guy got out or not, Romero would be pulled. My contention is that Cito doesn't play matchups with his starters. He leaves them in there til they break some pitch count barrier he has or they get in trouble. Which constantly leaves our relief pitchers in situations where they have to come in with runners on base. I went over the Blue Jay's schedule/record and pretty much it clearly showed that Cito doesn't play matchups with starters. That was what I objected to with Magpie. His argument was that Cito's moves with playing the matchups was perfectly conventional and logical. I agree, but Cito just doesn't follow that logic. I could dig more into it and see if the Jay's relievers have to deal with inherited runners at a higher then league average, but I think I've spent enough time researching this debate. The record shows though that if Romero had gotten Damon out, Cito would have left him in to face Ordonez.

I do disagree with you on the jams thing though. I think there are days and nights when pitchers just don't have their best stuff. Romero was walking a good deal of people today and he wasn't getting strikeouts (which is common for him lately). His pitch count was basically at 100 already, so best case scenario (maybe a 10 pitch inning) he comes out of it at 110ish.  Which to me is too much given that like Mike said he seems to be tiring as the season goes on. He also had some good defensive plays help him out. I think Romero should have been done after 7 and the reliever who came in had the chance to start with a clean slate.

And no I don't want that from the Jay's pitching staff. But since I never made that argument I don't know what to say about it. I think our staff is actually pretty good (one of the league leaders) in going deep into games already.

I agree with what Mick says. I just want this to be a good civil discussion about baseball. I have nothing against Magpie and respect his knowledge a lot. I love being in passionate debates about many things, sports included. But if I'm wrong, call out my arguments and tell me where I'm wrong. (I'll listen even!) But don't make it personal please.

Only Travis Snider can heal these rifts between us.

All he's saying is that (1) on the evidence, rather than fantasy, Gaston tends to leave the starter in in this kind of situation (conventional) until he gets into trouble (less conventional). And (2) he thinks that's a bad strategy. This past game fits the pattern.

Of course no one actually knows what Gaston's strategy would have been if Romero got Damon. Ordinarily, it would be reasonable to guess he'd leave Romero in. Then again, Romero on 95 pitches on a bad day in a tie game on the road with the bullpen fresh in the 8th inning against Ordonez and Cabrera is not an ordinary situation.

Whoa!! Look at all those posts I'm repeating. Forget I said anything.

They need alot more than that.

Currently - they play like its a beer softball game.

You cannot win without men on base.
You cannot win with a .305 team OBP.

Doesnt make a difference if you have the best pitchers in the game - all on one team.

You get on base at a .305 clip - and you wind up watching the playoffs on TV.

I made a post and got called stupid and ignorant.

Well, not directly. I might have been making a random philosophical observation...

Seriously, that really was over the top and I am sorry about that. As I wrote the other day, there's a sub-set of the baseball conversation that sounds exactly like fingernails scratching on a chalkboard to me. Second-guessing the manager, especially for an utterly conventional move that didn't happen to work out, is defnitely one of them.

And again, Kevin Gregg notwithstanding, the bullpen hasn't been nearly as big a problem as people seem to think. Of course, the bullpen always feels worse than it really is.

Gaston after the game:

“My plan was to let (Ricky) go back out there and get Damon out and then switch him, but it didn’t work out,”

And again, Kevin Gregg notwithstanding, the bullpen hasn't been nearly as big a problem as people seem to think. Of course, the bullpen always feels worse than it really is.

The bullpen has been much better in low pressure than in late innings. Camp for example, is one of the best pitcher in the pen but he hasn't been as good in late inning (hitters are .309 vs .243 overall). Same with Purcey. And Frasor. Ideally, you want your best pitchers to pitch the late innings, not the 6th and 7th. That does not help the rotation much.

Kevin Gregg destroyed the team this season, but the responsibility belongs to Cito Gaston. They'll both be gone next season, n' est-ce pas?

Personally, I can now root for the White Sox and hope they eliminate the Yankees in October. Next season the Blue Jays should be fine.