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Some of you may have heard that Mike Wilner, the Fan 590 pre and post-game host, has been given the weekend off by Rogers who own both the Fan 590 and the Jays.  If you remember the Jays lost a tough game against the Rays on Tuesday and on Wednesday Wilner asked Cito about his bullpen strategy in that game.  Either Cito or the Jays, or both, didn't appreciate the conversation and so Mike was a few days off to reconsider his interfacing with the manager. 

Here is Wilner's version from his blog:

Before the game, I had a discussion with Cito Gaston about the things I pointed out in last night’s blog post - about how he’d painted himself into a corner by not holding Shawn Camp and Scott Downs back.  In the pre-game media scrum, Cito mentioned that taking Gregg out for Rommie Lewis or David Purcey wasn’t an option, but that if he’d still had Downs or Camp or Frasor available, he would have made a move before the Rays had taken the lead.  So I asked him why he had removed Camp after having him only throw six pitches, with the ninth hitter at the plate, two out and nobody on in the 8th.  Cito’s answer was “Have you looked at the stats?”.  I said no, but that I couldn’t have imagined that Brignac could have more than three at-bats against either Downs or Camp, so it wouldn’t matter.  His answer, again, was “you should look at the stats.”  So I did, and they showed that Brignac had never faced Camp, and that going into last night’s game, he had faced Downs once and struck out.  Obviously, one at-bat means less than nothing.  It’s the same as having had no history against him, like Camp had.  Cito asked a few minutes later if I’d seen the stats, and I told him the numbers and he said “that’s right”.  Still wanting a real answer, I said “but you trust Camp, right?  You’ve used him against lefties.” At which point I was interrupted by the Jays’ communications staff, saying that a question had been asked and answered.  I explained that I was just trying to point out that he could have had Downs for the 9th had he left Camp in, and then Cito told me to look at Downs’ stats against the Rays (I’m sure the Crawford slam only adds to that argument).

Downs stats against the Rays as a whole were irrelevant to the discussion, since Cito had already said that if he had had Downs available in the 9th, he’d have used him to bail out Gregg.  But I didn’t get to make that point, because Cito went on to tell me that it’s a lot tougher in his seat and that he can’t just sit there and blurt out anything that comes into his head.  That was enough of the discussion for me.  I think he also suggested I should come down and try managing, and I’m regretting that I didn’t take him up on the offer.  I’d say that I’ll say yes the next time he offers, but I doubt it will come up again.

It’s unfortunate that I can’t have a legitimate discussion about strategy with the manager without him feeling as though he’s being attacked (or at least reacting as though he’s being attacked - I don’t know what he was feeling), but such is life.  I don’t need to be belittled by the skipper in front of the entire assemblage when I’m asking legitimate, rational questions about a situation that he brought up earlier in a conversation.

 

John Lott in the National Post wrote about the "confrontation", and points out that Wilner and Cito have some history:

Gaston meets with Toronto media members before each game. Usually, the exchanges are low-key and relaxed. Besides providing injury updates and the like, Gaston often is asked to explain the reasoning behind his personnel decisions, and typically, those exchanges are cordial, even when the questions are challenging.

Wilner and Gaston have clashed before. Earlier this season, Wilner apologized on his blog for comments he had made in the blog about Gaston’s use of first baseman Lyle Overbay. Wilner also frequently criticizes Gaston’s managerial strategy on the post-game show.

 

The Baseball writers Association have taken up Wilner's cause:

“The baseball writers association would like to officially voice its support of the right of Mr. Wilner or any other reporter to ask challenging questions,” chapter president Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star wrote in the letter.

“Similar lines of questioning in the wake of difficult losses are not uncommon in all pro sports. The concern of the BBWAA is that this amounts to an attempt to either censor or intimidate the media coverage that the Jays receive on a daily basis in all four newspapers and the wire services.”

 

You have to wonder how much of this is history.  If we know anything about Cito we know he carries a grudge and I doubt there is much love there between Wilner and Cito.  Also Wilner, on the radio at least, can be fiesty and we don't know what the tones of voice were like in the conversation.  Was Cito baiting Wilner?  Who knows?

Mikey Versus The Manager | 78 comments | Create New Account
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Gerry - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#216238) #

Here are China fan's comments from another thread......

This is actually a fascinating story, which probably deserves its own thread.  It's fascinating because of the complexities involved:  freedom of speech, freedom of the press, vs. the oddities of one of Toronto's more controversial sports personalities.  There's been lots of passionate argument about the case on DJF if anyone wants to scroll through the DJF discussion threads over the past couple of days.

A few quick points:

1) Wilner is a Rogers employee, and so is Gaston.  As a corporation, I suppose Rogers doesn't want its employees to be feuding in public, especially if a junior employee is clashing with a senior employee.  Hence, the corporation cracked down on the lower-ranking of the two.

2) On the other hand, the Toronto chapter of the Baseball Writers Association has sent a protest letter to Beeston, and they make a legitimate point:  you can't punish a journalist for asking tough questions.  That's his job.

3) On the third hand, Wilner is notorious for cutting off callers who question his opinions. So his suspension seems like a little dose of his own medicine.  Unlike most other journalists at Gaston press conferences, Wilner has a tone-of-voice issue:  he can be annoyingly sarcastic, hostile, arrogant.  But when Gaston cuts HIM off at a press conference, suddenly he complains that Gaston is "belittling" him.  So, it's okay for him to cut off and belittle his callers (okay, mostly the jerks), but he objects when someone cuts him off and belittles him?  Can't take his own tactics when they are turned on him?

4) At the heart of the dispute with Gaston was Wilner's persistent hostile questioning of Gaston's use of the bullpen in the 7-6 loss to Tampa.  Gaston responded to Wilner's questions by repeatedly saying "Look at the statistics."   Wilner, I think, may have misinterpreted the statistics that Gaston was alluding to -- or may have imagined that Gaston was referring to different statistics that he was actually referring to -- because Gaston didn't go into a detailed explanation of his decision.  He just said "Look at the stats."    Frankly, I'm on Gaston's side on this issue:  there is nothing that obliges him to go into a detailed discussion with Mike Wilner about statistics in a post-match discussion.  He shouldn't have to give a detailed sabermetric defence of every decision that he makes.  It's unreasonable, and it doesn't resolve anything -- as we know from our own Bauxite discussions.  So I agree with Gaston that he shouldn't have to engage in marathon statistical debates with Mike Wilner.  On the other hand, purely on freedom-of-speech principles, I don't think Wilner should be suspended for asking tough questions -- but ultimately he's a Rogers employee so there should be absolutely no doubt that Rogers will do whatever it wants to him.

Gerry - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#216240) #

And Will Rain's post from the other thread.....

Let me preface by saying that every journalist Ive seen a comment from disapproves and the writer's association letter was written by Dick Griffin who's clearly not a Wilner fanboy, so there's that.

To your points:

1) I note the irony here of all those years of callers to Winer's show (and commenters on the blog) suggesting Wilner's objectivity was constrained by the fact he worked for Rogers. This would speak to that charge by indicating he didn't feel constrained...and maybe he should have?

2) they have it exactly right

3)  I think Wilner's style on his talk show is irrelevant because what you describe is SOP for radio talk shows. if a talk host induldges every caller (even the good ones but especially the nutters) he won't have listeners or a show for long. You can't do that job any other way. Does he occasionally sound condescending to a caller?

Oh yes. But the majority of the time (by far) said caller is saying something positively loopy (proposing a ridiculous trade, or suggesting we dump a good player after one bad game, or - just for a recent example - concluding "we can't play with the big boys" because of those two ninth inning losses. Most of us would be condescending on such suggestions aswell.

In fact, i dare say 90% of those who object to the way Wilner condescends to a goofy call wouldn't hesitate to condescend to a post here or elsewhere that insisted on taking a laughable position.

Further and more to the point, take the listy of the top 20 talk show hosts by ratings and tell me if you see one on there who DOESN'T display a marked lack of tolerance for idiots.

THAT, as a talk show host, is every bit as much his job as asking Cito tough questions.

Cito, on the other hand, is in a job which requires just the opposite sort of behavior.

4) What should Cito have done? Here's a thought - he could try something new and allow as to how maybe - just MAYBE - he could have done it better...that he in retrospect made a mistake. Something like this:

"You know Mike, that's not a bad point. Clearly looking back it didn't work out as I'd hoped. In those situations I have to make a snap judgment and, just like Kevin Gregg or any of the other players i'm human and it's obvious sometimes I'll get one wrong. Whether or not I got it wrong last night is open for debate of course, but if I get caught up in second guessing myself, I'll make a lot more of them.
That being the case, i kind of have to leave the hindsight discussion to people like yourself."

Not a direct admission of error - but allowing the possibility and showing some humility and class along the way. Cito has a reputation for class . . . not so much for humility maybe.


By the way, Wilner pointed out on his blog that the one statistic Cito was right about - Downs' record vs the Rays - is moot because Cito's opening of the point was that if he'd had Downs (or Frasor or Camp) still available to relieve Gregg he would have used him.

85bluejay - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#216243) #

Journalist have the right to ask tough questions without fear of retribution - but I think this suspension is richly

deserved and I hope the Fan makes a permanent change. Wilner has spent this season going after Cito in a

vicious and unrelenting fashion, and even though I am not a great fan of Cito's managing style, I have been

appalled by the nonstop attacks on Cito by Wilner (eg. saying Cito was playing Overbay everday to punish him

for complaining about not enough playing time last season, calling almost every questionable call Cito made

"the worst decision in baseball history") - it seems very personal from Wilner's side, as if continuing the fight

that Gaston/Beeston had with JP(everyone knows of Wilner's manlove for JP)/Brad Arnsberg et all.

I was questioning how the Fan could continue to let Wilner behave in such an unprofessional manner 

and am hoping we get a new host.

 

Regarding, sports talk show confrontation being SOP - The guy doing the leafs show certainly doesn't operate

that way and I listen to the Fan New York while driving at night and their host do not operate in such an

aggressive manner with callers.

85bluejay - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#216244) #

Also, regarding Richard Griffin writing the letter of protest, Well I think that's SOP, he's the president of the local

chapter of BBWA.

greenfrog - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#216246) #
This is one of the problems with being both an independent-minded journalist and an employee of Rogers. Rogers is a big, powerful corporation that wants to protect its brand. Journalists (at least the good ones) are prone to speaking truth to power, although doing this well on a regular basis no doubt requires a certain amount of tact. I respect Wilner for being a pesky and intelligent (if occasionally obstreperous) journalist, but I'm not surprised that he's experiencing some blowback from Rogers.
Matthew E - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#216249) #
So here's what you can do.

If, I say if, you think that Mike Wilner is being unfairly treated, you can write a letter, a paper letter, not an e-mail, to both the Blue Jays and the Fan 590, and tell them that. Keep your letter as brief as possible; stick to the three Cs (clear, civil, concise).

As always, the principle is this: be careful what you don't ask for because you might not get it.

uglyone - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#216250) #
I think it's about time, to be honest.

The way Wilner - a dork with no baseball experience, and questionable baseball intelligence - completely and utterly savages Cito at every opportunity has been horrible to witness.

And then now, after an incredibly tough and tight series loss against supposedly the "best team in baseball" with apparently the "best manager in baseball", a series in which both managers made a large number of tough, risky, and questionable decisions, with things just barely breaking right for the other side......Cito has to sit there and not only answer tough questions - and let's remember, he DID answer Mike's questions - but has to sit there as Mike tries to apparently get him to admit that he was wrong and apologize or something like that, and fail that, sit there and be publicly embarassed by this hack with no credentials.

It's been ridiculous all year, and it's well deserved.

And the hilarious part of all this is that if the season ended today - Cito Gaston would win Manager of the Year by a landslide, and deservedly so.

Flex - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#216251) #
Journalists live and die on the intelligence and courage of their questioning and their reporting. Radio personalities live and die on the entertainment value of their personalities.

A radio personality/journalist is almost an oxymoron. Not quite, but the two things aren't always an easy mix. I almost wonder if Wilner was employed to be a personality, and he took on the mantle of "journalist" himself. Which led him into deep water.

That said, I find it absurd that someone in Wilner's position of journalist/personality would be suspended for any length of time because of testy exchange with the baseball manager. He was doing what he believed he was being paid to do, question a subject on his decisions. Because the subject didn't like it, Wilner got suspended. That's just wrong.

If they'd come to blows, or engaged in name-calling, then that would justify some sort of action. But it sounds here as if Wilner is being suspended for matters of tone. And you can't suspend people for something so subjective.
Flex - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#216252) #
And by the way, I speak as a former columnist who was fired by Rogers for making the wrong people mad.
uglyone - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#216253) #
A boss can't suspend/fire someone for their tone of  voice? of course they can.



ayjackson - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#216256) #

I really don't think he was suspended for a heated exchange with the Manager.  He was suspended for giving a blow-by-blow of the exchange on a Rogers blog.  He decided to air the dirty laundry.

China fan - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#216257) #

In response to WillRain:  you seem to be suggesting that Gaston should display humility and tact, while Wilner doesn't have to show any humility or tact.  It's a bit of a double standard.  If Wilner has been attacking Gaston all season, it's not surprising that Gaston would get a bit short with him.  Why should Gaston show humility to one of his biggest critics?    Yes, it's SOP for radio-show hosts to be curt with callers -- that's fine.  But it's also SOP for baseball managers to have a confident attitude, not admitting mistakes, not admitting weakness.  The manager has to inspire confidence from his players -- how can he do that if he's publicly admitting mistakes as soon as he's questioned about his decisions? 

In my view, if Wilner wants to make a stand for truth and honest questioning, he shouldn't pick such a trivial issue. Bullpen management is not some kind of crucial issue that warrants a press-conference battle.

On the specific statistical issue at the centre of the dispute:  don't assume that it was the Downs-vs-Rays stats, or anything else necessarily.  Gaston didn't specify what stats he was talking about.  Maybe he meant the splits of the upcoming Rays batters.  Maybe he meant something else.  We don't know, so it's a bit unfair to crucify him over it. 

In any game, a manager has to make a host of gambles, and inevitably some will lose on some of them.  Post-facto criticism is fun, but a bit unfair.  For example, assume that a manager in the course of 9 innings must make 5 decisions about pitchers and hitters in different situations (bullpen, pinch hitters, pinch runners or whatever).  If, in each case, the manager makes the decision that has an 80 per cent likelihood of success, there is still a statistical chance that he will make one "wrong" decision per 9 innings.  To attack him for the one wrong decision, while ignoring the right decisions, is easy sport, but unfair.

Thomas - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#216260) #
I agree this is a fascinating issue.

I haven't listened to a lot of Wilner this year, but I listen to him on-and-off for the past several years and one thing that has always struck me about him is that he seems very unwilling to give Cito credit for anything. Wilner is often a calm and rational voice in comparison to many of his callers who give knee-jerk opinions and suggestions. In doing so, Wilner often defended much-maligned Blue Jays and employees against public criticism. In my recollection, this goes back to Tosca, but continued with John Gibbons, occurred consistently with JP and occurs with underperforming Blue Jays like Overbay this year. Even when it seemed like something had become an issue, such as that Gibbons had repeated run-ins with players or that JP had particular weaknesses as a GM, Wilner would often repeatedly defend them and downplay the incidents. Even on WWJP he would usually not engage in anything more than perfunctory questioning of JP.

However, with Cito he doesn't do that, or at least not at the times I've listened to him. He's repeatedly suggested the clubhouse mutiny last year was bigger and more problematic than it was portrayed in the media and makes references to how widespread the issues with Cito were. He often attacks Cito's lineups and in-game strategy. Whether or not these are valid, he doesn't defend Cito with any gusto against attackers and rarely engages in any discussion of Cito's strengths or potential strengths. Again, I might be wrong, because I haven't listened to JaysTalk very much this year because I haven't found it of a high quality, but that was certainly his tone during the previous year and a half of Cito's return. Wilner certainly seems to have a bee in his bonnet when it comes to Gaston.

That being said, he should not be suspended. I think Gerry is right in that Wilner may have misinterpreted what Cito meant when it came to their exchange (assuming it occurred as described on his blog, and I have no reason to believe that account is wrong). I also think that the point that Wilner's decision to recount their exchange in detail may have influenced the suspension. Regardless, Cito answered his question, although perhaps not to Wilner's satisfaction. Wilner was fine to ask his follow-up questions and Cito could deal with them as he saw fit, including to refuse to talk about it further.
Gerry - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#216262) #

For those of you not on twitter here are a coupleof fresh tweets:

John Lott: Wilner knows this now: He can't be independent. No reporter is truly independent in his/her job; Rogers makes him less so than most of us.

Jeff Blair: Today's lesson: If you really want an answer, ask the manager one on one. Don't show him up in a group. Basic reporting: it's not about u

 

Paul D - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#216263) #

I haven't listened to Wilner in a while, but when I did, which was 4 and 5 years ago, I thought he was fantastic.   But a lot of the comments indicate that he's terrible now.   Has he changed?   He was always somewhat sarcastic with callers who called in with dumb questions, but I liked that - a sports radio guy who actually had a somewhat advanced understanding of the game.  Is he different now?

ComebyDeanChance - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#216265) #
Fair enough matthew.

I would also invite anyone who believes (as I do) that Wilner has become insufferable to write letters as well. And avail yourself of the telephone.

I will be disappointed if he returns to the Blue Jay broadcasts.
truefan - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#216268) #
Hosting call-in segments, Wilner may be more free with his opinions than he needs to be.  However,  i don't find those opinions to be extreme.  While he may not be the most cerebral baseball analyst on the planet (nor i suspect does he match the self-image of many on this board), he offers a sensible, intelligent view and is a moderate on most issues.  Without Wilner we have mere cheerleaders on the air.  Rogers has got to loosen up; in the era of social media (like battersbox.ca) if they try to control the story, they will be savaged.
Shane - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#216269) #

I will be disappointed if he returns to the Blue Jay broadcasts.

Wow. Ya, good old bland and without any opinion what so ever is much better. Maybe Warren Sawkiw is available to put us asleep and kill ratings. Maybe Jamie Campbell.

Matthew E - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#216270) #
I don't even think Wilner is all that critical of Gaston. Sometimes, yes. But I've also heard lots of examples this year of his defending a move that Gaston made, or explaining to a caller that Gaston's strengths as a manager go beyond the specific moves. Wilner is far from one-sided when it comes to Gaston.

Wilner isn't perfect. He can be unnecessarily contentious, especially about irrelevancies, and I hate that thing he does where he introduces the postgame coach's interview segment and thinks he's being cute by making a word salad out of it. But he's still one of my favourite things about being a Jays fan, and the outcome of this situation, if it's particularly bad, has the potential to break my fandom for good.
electric carrot - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#216271) #
Here are the red herrings in this debate:

1.  Tone.

2.  Jeff Blair.  (Today's lesson: If you really want an answer, ask the manager one on one. Don't show him up in a group. Basic reporting: it's not about u)  

3.  Anything Wilner has ever said on his radio program.

4.  What a boss can do his employees.

The issue here is simple.  Either you respect the press' right to ask tough questions or you don't.  If you do you support Wilner against Rogers.  Of course Rogers is just protecting their brand and any company might do the same.  It's up to citizens to demand more.  Bad manners, tone, workplace conduct are just distractions.  Corporate control vs. freedom of the press is the issue.












Thomas - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#216272) #
He was always somewhat sarcastic with callers who called in with dumb questions, but I liked that - a sports radio guy who actually had a somewhat advanced understanding of the game. Is he different now?

Not to my listening, but Matthew seems to have been listening more to Wilner this year than I. I maintain that, in my listening experience, he seemed much more ready and willing to leap to the defence of Tosca or Gibbons than Cito and that he seems to grudgingly extend Cito most of the credit he gives him. I remember at least a couple of callers asking him about the blow-up last year and whether it was fair to say it was overstated given the hot start and the lack of any public issues in the clubhouse and Wilner would go on about how it was actually bigger than the media made it out to be and how he was privy to information that he couldn't repeat that would show us how much of an issue it was.

I do find myself disagreeing with him more than I used to, such as on his stupid theory that Cito was punishing Overbay by playing him every day. However, the essence of the show, where he shoots down knee-jerk reactions and gives a logical explanation of a lot of things, remains the same. However, I don't listen as much, because I don't go out of my way to do so and I used to do that, at least once a week or so, before.

Hodgie - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#216275) #

"Corporate control vs. freedom of the press is the issue."

That is a pretty simplistic view of journalistic ethics and in my mind is a very slippery slope. I am curious as to why you seem to believe that a journalist is not bound to perform their responsibilities in a professional and ethical manner and shouldn't be held accountable by their employer when said standards are not being met in their view? Blair is absolutely correct, a journalist is supposed to report the news, not become it. Contrary to your views, I am permitted to respect the press' right to ask tough questions while at the same time maintaining the expectation that they do so in a respectable, professional and ethical manner. These two sets of actions do not need to be mutually exclusive.

dan gordon - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#216276) #
I think Wilner is an excellent baseball analyst.  By far the best in the Toronto media.  I tend to agree with most of what he says and i find that his criticisms of Gaston have been almost always bang-on.  I was very disappointed to find that he had been given a "time out" or whatever you want to call it.  I wrote to The Fan to express my displeasure.
TamRa - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#216277) #
In response to WillRain:  you seem to be suggesting that Gaston should display humility and tact, while Wilner doesn't have to show any humility or tact.  It's a bit of a double standard.

Yup.

Because they are vastly different jobs.

A media personality's job is to, ya know, HAVE PERSONALITY. McCowan has personality, all those people do and the ones who don't are routinely complained about as being bland.

Like him or not, and I'm certain 98% of Canadians don't - the most highly paid and listened to radio personality in the U.S. is radioactive with ego and has no problem with a liberal (if you'll excuse the word) helping of condescension on a regular basis. And if the politics of that bother you, the most popular guy on the left is Keith Olberman and he was a condescending prick when he was in sports and still is. So are guys like Jim Rome and every guy paid to have an opinion on ESPN.

As I said before, none of these people get paid to be Mr. Rogers.

Cito, on the other hand, has no aspect of his job which calls for being abrasive, brash, or egotistical.

So yeah, there's a double standard. An appropriate one.

Now, should Wilner be brash or condescending TO Cito or Beeston or one of the players? No. But he's clearly not. He wasn't in the referenced exchange.

If Wilner has been attacking Gaston all season, it's not surprising that Gaston would get a bit short with him.  Why should Gaston show humility to one of his biggest critics?  

If he has an ax to grind with Wilner for criticizing him, then he shouldn't call on him for a question in the first place. let Wilner stew. That said, if Cito is to be believed, he doesn't listen to those shows or acknowledge that he's even aware of the criticism.

Further, he's been around the league long enough to know harsh criticism comes with the job. Hell, how many were calling for his head in '97? And oh-by-the-way, how many of the folks who are crying now about how unrelentingly mean Wilner is to Cito were crying foul when he wasn't mean ENOUGH in his criticism of JP.

There was every bit as much harsh, direct, and unforgiving criticism of JP in the Toronto media and other than noting how ham-fisted Griffin was at making his points, I don't recall anyone ever saying "McCowan is too mean to JP" or whatever.

If Cito - at his age - is pissy about what some talk show flack says about him on the air, then that, too, is worthy of criticism.

But it's also SOP for baseball managers to have a confident attitude, not admitting mistakes, not admitting weakness.  The manager has to inspire confidence from his players -- how can he do that if he's publicly admitting mistakes as soon as he's questioned about his decisions?

I completely disagree. Profoundly even. No one is fool enough to think that a mistake not admitted to wasn't in fact a mistake. Would the players have more confidence in Jim Joyce today if he had said "By god the man was safe!" instead of admitting he kicked it?

In any game, a manager has to make a host of gambles, and inevitably some will lose on some of them.  Post-facto criticism is fun, but a bit unfair.

Which, as I already said, would have been a perfectly legitimate and respectful way for Cito to respond.

To attack him for the one wrong decision, while ignoring the right decisions, is easy sport, but unfair.

Indeed. And when does that ever stop anyone? Wilner is one voice in a VERY big crowd of critics, arm-chair on line types like us and highly paid professionals, who live to second guess sports figures "unfairly" with very few reference to what they got right. Again, I refer you to the river of blood that flowed over JP's head, often for things entierly out of his control.

*****
On other comments:

Journalist have the right to ask tough questions without fear of retribution - but I think this suspension is richly deserved and I hope the Fan makes a permanent change. Wilner has spent this season going after Cito in a vicious and unrelenting fashion, and even though I am not a great fan of Cito's managing style, I have been appalled by the nonstop attacks on Cito by Wilner

A fascinating observation by one who was particularly vicious in his criticism of JP and notable in their opinion that Wilner wasn't harsh enough.

One would almost think you decide someone "deserves" punishment for not agreeing with you.

If the Fan cans him (which is there right) and replaces him with a bland host who never takes issue with anyone, no one will listen and everyone will say that the host was castrated by the front office so that he not speak ill of a Rogers product.

As for criticizing Cito, everything I've read or heard him say, I heard elsewhere from fans first. We were 90% agreed on this very board that Cito was making insane moves early in the season and it hasn't quieted because he got smarter, it's just kind of awkward to bash the manager of an over achieving team. The Overbay bit was clumsy but you hear screwier things from other media types every week.

***

The way Wilner - a dork with no baseball experience, and questionable baseball intelligence -

I'll leave aside "baseball intelligence" since for all of us, that's a euphemism for "how often he agrees with me" but I have to wonder, of all the baseball related media types in Toronto, from Howarth to Griffin to McCowan, if you lay aside the former major leaguers who serve as color men (and Martinez late of that role, what is their combined "baseball experience"? Which of them has ever managed even ONE professional game?

but has to sit there as Mike tries to apparently get him to admit that he was wrong and apologize or something like that, and fail that, sit there and be publicly embarrassed by this hack with no credentials.

I provided an easy and obvious example of how he could have answered the question in a way that both directly answered the question and avoided any appearance that either man was talking down to the other. In fact, Wilner's original question was not at all out of line either in content or in tone. It was only when Cito dismissed it with a non-answer that he arguably "took an attitude"

There were plenty of ways Cito could have taken the question seriously without admitting error.

Now, I'm NOT saying Cito is obliged to take Wilner or his questions seriously (though in that case best just to not call on him) but if he doesn't, then the events and tone which followed is perfectly understandable. And hardly worthy of public discipline. At most you simply call Wilner on the carpet and remind him where the boundaries are.

***

Journalists live and die on the intelligence and courage of their questioning and their reporting. Radio personalities live and die on the entertainment value of their personalities.

A radio personality/journalist is almost an oxymoron. Not quite, but the two things aren't always an easy mix. I almost wonder if Wilner was employed to be a personality, and he took on the mantle of "journalist" himself. Which led him into deep water.


Has anyone ever heard Wilner call himself a journalist? In my experience Radio (and TV) opinion guys go out of their way to disclaim the role of journalist and I'd be surprised if Wilner considers himself one. Being a personality, as opposed to a journalist, MIGHT be the distinction the team needs to make in terms of who it admits to the scrum - but once admitted, he's as entitled to try to obtain the info that helps him do his job well as anyone else there.

***

I really don't think he was suspended for a heated exchange with the Manager.  He was suspended for giving a blow-by-blow of the exchange on a Rogers blog.  He decided to air the dirty laundry.

A distinct possibility. But one I think Rogers would do well to point out if it's true.

***

but I listen to him on-and-off for the past several years and one thing that has always struck me about him is that he seems very unwilling to give Cito credit for anything.

When Cito was hired, Wilner said repeatedly that Cito was widely held to be, and he agreed, "the best manager in baseball from the end of one game until the start of the next"and that putting up with some questionable in-game moves or non-moves was basically the price of admission to get that guy.

He did say - consistently I thought - that there was bad logic behind some of the fan reactions (Denbo caused all the problems, for instance, or that Cito was responsible for Wells success in 2008 and not his failure in 2009, or that Gibbons was a horrendous manager in June 2008, but was not responsible for the 20+ wins in May and so forth)

that's not so much a question of giving a manager or a coach credit or not, as it is using sound logic to arrive at your conclusions and being intellectually consistent.

From what I've heard, and i try to listen to as many of the post-game shows the following day on the blog as I can, I don't hear Wilner saying anything negative that most of us don't say. The problem is that like all "news" - what the manager does right is a lot less fodder for discussion than what he does wrong.

To again refer to the Joyce incident - there's no story in saying "Give Jim Joyce credit, he got that call right"

Wilner often defended much-maligned Blue Jays and employees against public criticism.

Indeed, for which he takes much abuse as being a company-man shill. They can't both be true. Although, while all your examples are true, he DOES criticize other players. He constantly reminds callers that Alex Gonzalez is not an all-star caliber guy, he took a long time to allow much credit to Bautista (and even now will remind you it's half a season of great work) and has been critical of John Buck and others, including various pitchers.

Last year and before, he wasn't a bit shy of bagging on Wilkerson or Mench or Millar, or whoever, even when that implied criticism of JP's decision making by having the player on the team at all. He has voiced a lot of criticism for using (or even having under contract) veteran players who were stopgaps instead of less experienced guys - and that not just about the manager's usage but the GM's having obtained the guy at all

his defense of JP was always against irrational criticism - and frankly 3/4 of it WAS irrational - not universal. He himself publically scratched his head in many ways (too many Millar-types, too few July trades, etc). the fact that he didn't buy into nonsensical BS about "five year plans" and the like doesn't make him a fanboy.

***

Has he changed?   He was always somewhat sarcastic with callers who called in with dumb questions, but I liked that - a sports radio guy who actually had a somewhat advanced understanding of the game.  Is he different now?

No.

***

I don't even think Wilner is all that critical of Gaston. Sometimes, yes. But I've also heard lots of examples this year of his defending a move that Gaston made, or explaining to a caller that Gaston's strengths as a manager go beyond the specific moves. Wilner is far from one-sided when it comes to Gaston.

Agreed. Someone said above that "Wilner doesn't give Gaston credit" but, again, it's not worthy of notice if Wilner or any host says "That was the right move" - it's only memorable when the host rants about something done wrong.

***

Wilner isn't perfect. He can be unnecessarily contentious, especially about irrelevancies,

Oh my lord yes. Grammar correction, touchiness about "How are you?" and "we" (as if we are the team itself) and all that stuff. he has a lot of quirks I don't care for. But few of them are baseball related.

***

I do find myself disagreeing with him more than I used to, such as on his stupid theory that Cito was punishing Overbay by playing him every day.


I've seen that incident referred to using the word "punishing" a few times, and i don't think Wilner ever used or strongly implied that - it's just become part of the legend. What Wilner implied was that Cito was applying a "be careful what you wish for" attitude, as well as sending the message "if you bitch about not playing against LHP, then go out and show me you can hit them - put your bat where your mouth is"

Not only do I think it's plausible that could have been correct, but I think that if Cito HAD been doing that (at least before it became plausible this team actually had some dark horse potential) he'd have been perfectly justified in doing so. Wilner, in fact, didn't even say or imply (to the best of my recollection) that Cito was WRONG for doing that (in terms of player management).

It is, IMO, a perfectly reasonable thing for Cito to have done. That's not "punishment" and no player would feel "punished" for getting to play more often.

and, by the way, I'd FAR rather know that Cito was doing that, than that he was playing Overbay every day in order to help him get a better contract next winter.

***

I am permitted to respect the press' right to ask tough questions while at the same time maintaining the expectation that they do so in a respectable, professional and ethical manner. These two sets of actions do not need to be mutually exclusive.

Conceded, but not generally the case. Consider, for instance, a recent White House press briefing in which the most senior member of the press corps talked down to - in severe fashion - the press secretary about something in which she disagreed with their position. during the Bush administration such borderline rude questioning was not unusual at all.

The way Helen Thomas addressed Gibbs was FAR more nasty and condescending that what Wilner did, so much more so as to make them unworthy of being in the same discussion. and she's - despite her views and her age - regarded as the Queen Mum of Washington journalists.


electric carrot - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#216279) #
that a journalist is not bound to perform their responsibilities in a professional and ethical manner and shouldn't be held accountable by their employer when said standards are not being met in their view? Blair is absolutely correct, a journalist is supposed to report the news, not become it.

Hodgie, sure I think journalists need to behave ethically.  But what's the ethical issue here?  The reason I think it's a red herring in this case is not because ethics aren't important it's because there are no significant ethical issues here.  Nowhere in journalistic ethics does it behoove the reporter to not embarrass his subject at a press conference.  Good journalism in fact I would argue requires at times that you're not polite.  I think if you're not pissing some people off you're probably not doing your job as a journalist.  This is a fundamental and important clash between corporate and journalistic cultures.  I personally wish more journalists would have remembered this during the early stages of the gulf war to give one salient example where the press was polite instead of doing its job.


   
katman - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#216280) #
"The way Wilner - a dork with no baseball experience, and questionable baseball intelligence - completely and utterly savages Cito at every opportunity has been horrible to witness. "

No, it hasn't. What has been horrible to witness is Cito's in-game decisions. Cito is a terrible tactical manager, to the point that it became an issue for the entire team last year. That's a pretty high bar, but he met it. The team didn't want to be seen backing down to its players, hence the face-saving "one more year" compromise. That whole episode was an indicator of significant weaknesses.

Cito's team is playing well because key players are developing, or having career years, and Cito has always been strong in terms of hitting philosophy. But I can't see a rational person arguing with the contention that Cito often does NOT give his team the best chance to win.

Nor is he managing the club as one would manage a developing club. He has the players he likes, and doesn't use his bench much. Never has. That was ideal in 1992. Not so much now.

Wilner has seen what he has seen, and made an analytical judgment. Cito's behaviour routinely strengthens it, and I believe it has generally been correct.

And sorry, Wilner is a journalist. Being on the radio does not change that. Griffin's letter is spot-on.

I think rather less of both the Jays and Rogers in the wake of this incident. Criticism comes with the job, in any city. If you want to be big league, learn to deal with it.
China fan - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#216283) #

There's a huge, massive difference between Cito Gaston and a politician or government official.  Of course journalists should ask tough embarrassing questions to politicians and government officials -- and they do, routinely.  Politicians and government officials are paid by the taxpayers and accountable to the voters, so journalists of course must perform a watchdog role over them. 

Gaston is in a completely different category.  He's a private employee, in the entertainment business.  He's accountable only to his bosses.  They hire him and fire him, and media relations is only a small part of what he does.  His bosses decide how often he should meet the media, what the ground rules should be, and so on.  He's not much different from baseball players themselves, who are accountable only to those who pay the cheques.  If I recall correctly, Lyle Overbay refused to talk to reporters on some days this season, and Scott Downs hasn't talked to a reporter in years.  The fans can't control this -- only the employer can tell the players if they're allowed to ignore the reporters, and sometimes they allow it.   Most fans don't get too upset if a star player refuses to talk to the media, so I imagine that Gaston has that right too -- although generally he's under guidance to give a brief daily press conference or short post-game scrum.  But if one reporter is persistently hostile or negative or critical, it can make the manager more terse or curt than usual, and then nobody gets anything out of him.  He can shorten the press conference, walk out early or do anything, and the media have no influence over it.  So a guy like Wilner is screwing up the environment that other journalists need to do their jobs.

The dynamics in a Gaston press conference are different from the dynamics on Parliament Hill or Congress.  Nobody has a legal "right" to attend, and nobody has a legal "right" to ask tough questions.  It's all controlled by the corporation.  It's the entertainment business.

If you want an analogy for Gaston's role vis-a-vis the media, don't compare him to a politician or government official.  Compare him to Brad Pitt or Madonna.  Nobody has a "right" to ask tough hostile questions to a movie star or a pop singer -- they'll naturally get thrown out on their ear, because it's a business.  The people who control the business are spinners and publicists who want to keep the machine moving.  In a baseball stadium or a movie set, the media have only the rights that are given to them by the business.  They're free to say whatever they want in their reviews or blogs or radio shows, but don't expect a guarantee of access to the celebrity if you break the rules.

Having said all that, Wilner should probably not have been suspended by his employer.  That's taking obsequiousness a bit too far.

Mike Green - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#216284) #
When a reporter from the New York Times reports on financial or ethical issues at the Times, I naturally take the report with a larger than usual grain of salt and I am not surprised when tough questions are not asked.  My expectations of journalists are much higher (and often unfulfilled) when it comes to a a government's decision to take a country to war.

This is much more like the first instance, and the problem for Fan 590 radio journalists is that they are always in this position when reporting on the Jays.  To a great degree, their role is promotional rather than informational.  It has always been thus.  A certain amount of thoughtful analysis is permitted and encouraged, but their are obvious limits (as there are for mlb.com journalists).  These limits are probably tighter when it comes to decisions of ownership and upper management rather than on-the-field issues, but it seems that are even limits in those regards.

electric carrot - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#216288) #
Gaston is in a completely different category.  He's a private employee, in the entertainment business.  He's accountable only to his bosses.  They hire him and fire him, and media relations is only a small part of what he does.

The only difference in my mind between a journalist covering the Jays and one covering parliament are that with the Jays the stakes are much lower.  But to somehow conflate a journalists responsibility with Gaston's set of responsibilities (that is to his employee) is an odd and unfortunately (sorry China fan) sorry state of affairs.  Companies, like movie stars, like public officials are all a part of matrix of activity that have real impact on citizens and thus each -- whether elected or not -- is fair game for tough questions.

Isn't this obvious?


Spifficus - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#216289) #

A media personality's job is to, ya know, HAVE PERSONALITY.

I'm on Blair's side with this - if the interviewer becomes the story, he probably screwed up. This dual role of media personality and journalism is pure bull. It's led to the world of gotcha 'journalism' and encourages non-answers. If they want to be a 'media personality', then you run the risk of alienating the person you're questioning. In the end, the journa-persona bears at least some responsibility for that - it's their job to elicit the information, and part of that is knowing how to approach various personalities - in this case, a very proud 66 year old manager who is proud of his accomplishments.

All this for a move that really wasn't that questionable - he brought his set up man / best bullpen lefty to face a lefty in the 8th, as opposed to keep him in reserve as a backup closer for a closer who had only blown 2 saves. I can see how repeated questions on this could feel like badgering.

Was he badgering Gaston? Was Gaston being defensive and antagonistic from the start? What each mans' role in the matter was only people in the room know. I just don't believe this Journalist / Media Personality allows Wilner a double standard. In fact, if the coordinator thought his conduct was out of line or that he was obstructing the press conference without legitimate cause, then the time out might be warranted. On the flip side, if Wilner's hiatus was because Gaston was agitated by the hard hitting journalism or because Rogers didn't want their manager to be publicly ridiculed, then that's different, and a very serious (and simultaneously absurd) issue. Do we actually know which was the cause, or are we all just guessing?

Flex - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#216290) #
I recommend veteran media commentator William Huston's take on this issue:

http://www.truthandrumours.net/2010/06/05/the-fan590-radio-station-bounces-a-reporter-–-for-doing-his-job/
China fan - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#216291) #

.....Companies, like movie stars, like public officials are all a part of matrix of activity that have real impact on citizens and thus each -- whether elected or not -- is fair game for tough questions....

Of course it's fair game to ask tough questions of anyone.  I never disagreed with that.  But it's stupid (and unrealistic) to expect a private business to facilitate it.   Private businesses have no interest in tough questions, and never will.  If they can find a way to discourage tough questions, of course they'll do it.  A reporter can ask tough questions of anyone -- but he might not get allowed back the next time.  That's how business works.  Good journalists find ways to get around those obstacles.  One option:  they stand on the outside, without access to the media events, preserving their complete independence and asking their tough questions in blogs, newspaper articles or whatever.  Another option:  they pretend to be polite, they play along with the ground rules, in order to maintain access to the top people, so that they can ask those tough questions in a slightly more palatable way -- so they don't get thrown out.  Both methods are defensible.  What would be stupid is to break the rules, ask hostile questions, get thrown out, lose your access, and then act surprised.

Magpie - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#216293) #

Good journalists find ways to get around those obstacles. 

But it's not by standing outside the event - that's not necessary at all. This is about the corporation that owns the team. If Wilner worked for the Toronto Star, he'd have been in the media scrum this weekend. He may suffer from Cito Derangement Syndrome  - I sure think so - but next to Richard Griffin (or before him, Dave Perkins, or before him, John Robertson) Wilner's a company shill. But he works for Rogers, and he's not enough of a company shill.

China fan - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#216294) #
By the way, the appropriate response -- by the fans and journalists -- is public pressure and collective action.  That's why the protest letter by the Baseball Writers Association was a good idea.  If the company feels that it's getting bad publicity -- if it's suffering a black eye in the arena of public opinion -- it could reverse its decision.  Bad publicity is one of the few things, aside from money, that a private business might respond to.
TamRa - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#216295) #
Most fans don't get too upset if a star player refuses to talk to the media, so I imagine that Gaston has that right too -- although generally he's under guidance to give a brief daily press conference or short post-game scrum.  But if one reporter is persistently hostile or negative or critical, it can make the manager more terse or curt than usual, and then nobody gets anything out of him.

Of course. The proper way to do this, as i said above, is to not call on Wilner in the first place.

and it's not like Cito's never been testy before. Without the aid of Wilner. Again, that's indeed his perfect right, but it's the reporter's right to notice and comment on it too.

Nobody has a "right" to ask tough hostile questions to a movie star or a pop singer -- they'll naturally get thrown out on their ear, because it's a business.  The people who control the business are spinners and publicists who want to keep the machine moving.  In a baseball stadium or a movie set, the media have only the rights that are given to them by the business.


Ok, if you lay aside the aside the politics, it's still true that an entertainment company is beholden to the paying customer which constrains their behavior. If not, you wouldn't see stars apologize for bad behavior (often at the behest of those who pay them)

this is all the more true of media companies. for instance, would we be able to say journalists should ignore the PED story simply because neither players or teams want to be forthcoming about it?

 They're free to say whatever they want in their reviews or blogs or radio shows, but don't expect a guarantee of access to the celebrity if you break the rules.

I specifically said that if the team decided to bar Wilner that was their right. you are adressing a point here which is not at issue. the issue is how Wilner's employer handles the matter, not how the team handles it.

TamRa - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#216296) #
I just don't believe this Journalist / Media Personality allows Wilner a double standard.

I'm not arguing that Wilner being primarily a personality rather than a journalist would excuse him from being rude to Cito or any such "gotcha" behavior.

I was arguing that Wilner's "attitude" on the air and the blog was a function of being a "personality" rather than a straight journalist.

Private businesses have no interest in tough questions, and never will.  If they can find a way to discourage tough questions, of course they'll do it.


Of course - that's why this isn't a discussion of how the Jays behaved, but how Fan590 behaved. The former has a primary responsibility to protect it's brand; the latter, supposedly, has the mission statement of providing "news and commentary." Ideally, they should be no more oblidged to protect the Jays brand than to protect, for instance, that of the Raptors.

It is true that both are owned by the samew private business, but they have, or would profess to have, different aims. That this has been blurred is exactly what is unfortunate here.

Ultimately it's not really about Wilner, it's about how my Fan590 is a credible news outlet and how much it's a propaganda organ.

What would be stupid is to break the rules, ask hostile questions, get thrown out, lose your access, and then act surprised.

the issue at hand here though, is WHO'S rules got broken? the station shouldn't be oblidged to defend the teams rules. if Wilner broke the teams rules for press behavior, then the TEAM should bar Wilner from the scrum.

Matthew E - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#216299) #
As much as I'm on Wilner's side in this, I don't dispute the right of the Jays, or the FAN, or Rogers, to take whatever action they think they should take against Wilner. If they don't like what he said then they can do whatever they want to do to shut him up, up to but not including shooting him. They have that right.

Just because they have the right to do it, though, does not mean that they should do it, or, especially, that we should just roll over and accept whatever happens.

adrianveidt - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#216300) #
At first glance I'm sure this is merely the Rogers staff being loyal to a trusted and probably beloved family member (Gaston). However, this decision could have dire consequences.

This suspension creates a chilling effect on Wilner's show. A listener cannot establish a relationship of trust with a radio host unless the listener believes that the host is passing along his actual views -- unsanitized by his bosses.

There's a certain amount of hypocrisy in suspending Wilner and not Bob McCoun, who not only criticizes Gaston's specific managing decisions, but also fires ad-hominem attacks against Gaston regularly -- not that I'm complaining.

The Rogers management staff should consider their media personalities to be ombudsmen, not PR or marketing workers.
China fan - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 07:45 PM EDT (#216301) #

WillRain, you're making a very naive distinction between the Jays and the radio station.  They're both owned by the same corporation.  Why would you expect them to have different standards, different philosophies?  They're both controlled by their owners.   It's like expecting that Jordan Bastian will be a hard-hitting independent reporter who asks embarrassing negative questions at Gaston's press conferences.  To make a distinction between the Jays and Fan590 is like trying to find a distinction between MLB and mlb.com.

Magpie - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#216303) #
[Gaston] doesn't use his bench much. Never has. That was ideal in 1992. Not so much now.

On the contrary - the type of managing you imply you'd like to see made much more sense in 1992 than it does now. Teams used to carry a bench. Now no one does. Now teams just have a few guys for emergencies, and to give a regular an occasional day off - a backup catcher, a backup shortstop, etc.
Magpie - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#216304) #
By the way, that's just about a textbook instance of Cito Derangement Syndrome.

You begin with the manager's trait - he doesn't use the bench much. Because it's Cito Gaston, you can immediately proceed to your conclusion - that it's wrong and that it's unusual. In the process, one fails to notice it's become universal throughout the game.
Anders - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 08:42 PM EDT (#216308) #
Cito's team is playing well because key players are developing, or having career years, and Cito has always been strong in terms of hitting philosophy. But I can't see a rational person arguing with the contention that Cito often does NOT give his team the best chance to win.

Nor is he managing the club as one would manage a developing club. He has the players he likes, and doesn't use his bench much. Never has. That was ideal in 1992. Not so much now.


I don't know if Cito gives the Jays the best chance of winning, but there isn't a manager in the game that fits this criteria. Most of them do stupid things, or things that do not advance their chances to win. If you wanted to make percentage decisions then bring in MGL or Tangotiger and pay them to be the manager. This approach would clearly have its own drawbacksthough; I don't see how you can't give Cito a pretty large degree of credit for Jose Bautista's success. Sure, Bautista is doing it on his own, but Cito giving him a chance clearly played a big role. Cito may not make the best tactical decisions always (and goodness knows I've been frustrated) but clearly he is doing something right, as the Jays are surpassing all reasonable expectations.

About the bench, well, I have to agree with Magpie. More to the point, the Jays bench is excruciatingly bad, both in composition and in talent. They have a lousy backup catcher, a defensive replacement who can't hit enough to play shortstop (and is perhaps an inferior defender at short than the normal shortstop), and then Mike McCoy and whoever is filling in for Snider. When Snider gets back there will be some decisions to be made about how Lewis/Snider/Bautista/Eckstein/Lind/Overbay rotate through 1st-3rd-LF-RF-DH, but in the interim I do not think you can complain that John McDonald isn't getting enough at bats. If anything this is on the GM.

Lastly, Rogers is a private company and capable of imposing/requiring certain standards of its employees. If Wilner has a grievance (and I'm sure he does, I don't think much of Rogers' actions) then I'm sure there is a process by which it is handled internally. This would not happen in such a fashion in a real news organization though, which clearly the Fan 590 is not. On a more personal note, I have not listened to a minute of sports talk radio in the last 4 or so years*, and feel much better off for it.

*Except for erstwhile Bauxite Useless Tyler, on who's show Alex Obal and I used to appear. Snap.

Dewey - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#216309) #
Isn’t moral indignation fun?  Especially when it permits us us to huff and puff over such matters as this, as if it were of the utmost importance?   A “radio personality” is, apparently, chastized for being uncivil in some of  his ‘professional’  activities.  Whoaa!

(And Will Rain, to borrow from Mr. Blair,  Da Box is not about you:  not, not, not.  You needn’t feel obliged to respond, and so verbosely at that, to every post.  It’s O.K.   But while I have your attention,  Mike Wilner is *not* a journalist.  And anyone who thinks that the Fan590 might even conceivably be  “a credible news outlet” cannot be taken seriously, about pretty much anything.  Sorry.)
electric carrot - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#216315) #
Hmmm ... interesting Dewey. That's a long list of people who can't be taken seriously now including it seems Magpie.

But while were on the topic here are some more things that no one should consider seriously: (Sorry)

It's true Fan590 is hardly the New York Times. And also it's difficult really to call Fox News journalistic or mlb.com etc ... But with the gradual devolution of traditional journalism and audiences who want to be challenged with actual (gasp) critical thinking and/or rigorous research -- these are more and more the things that we are left with. And then it so happens that one guy at one of these places actually tries to do his job properly and he gets punished for not being more of a PR flack for Rogers. It's not Watergate, but personally I think it's actually easier to sit on the sidelines and be a smarmy apologist for the status quo (cue the flashing red light above Blair's head) than it is to engage with the issue in a serious way. And my personal belief is that when you do that you really have to come to Wilner's defense (who btw as a radio personality I don't especially like.)




Matthew E - Saturday, June 05 2010 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#216316) #
Mike Wilner is *not* a journalist.  And anyone who thinks that the Fan590 might even conceivably be  “a credible news outlet” cannot be taken seriously

Okay, fine, but if we want Wilner to be more of a journalist, or if we want the FAN to be more of a credible news outlet, then don't we have to start holding them to that standard?
Magpie - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#216319) #

It's true Fan590 is hardly the New York Times.

Hell, the New York Times is hardly the New York Times anymore. Most modern journalism, whether practised by the Fan 590, Fox News, or the mighty Times itself basically falls into two categories: 1) reprinting press releases from the people you're "reporting" on, or 2) playing "GOTCHA!"

I do think Wilner, to his credit,  was guilty of attempting to practise journalism (even if it wan't much more than the "GOTCHA " variety). And again, if he worked for the Star or the Post (never mind one of the non-Rogers TV stations) absolutely nothing would have happened. But he works for the company that owns the ball club, and he's required to be about as objective as Pat Tabler.

TamRa - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 12:31 AM EDT (#216320) #
This suspension creates a chilling effect on Wilner's show. A listener cannot establish a relationship of trust with a radio host unless the listener believes that the host is passing along his actual views -- unsanitized by his bosses.

Agreed.

There's a certain amount of hypocrisy in suspending Wilner and not Bob McCoun, who not only criticizes Gaston's specific managing decisions, but also fires ad-hominem attacks against Gaston regularly -- not that I'm complaining.


Not being a local who's able to listen to Bobcat regularly, i find that an interesting facet to the overall discussion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WillRain, you're making a very naive distinction between the Jays and the radio station.  They're both owned by the same corporation.  Why would you expect them to have different standards, different philosophies?

Because they are different sorts of businesses with different definitions of success. The station is oblidged to be a successful and profitable station and the team to be a successful and profitable baseball team. Where there is a necessary synergy between the two which maximizes the overall profits of Rogers as a whole, wonderful.
but that doesn't imply that either should sacrifice it's individual mission for the sake of the other's success (assuming the notion that whether or not one radio guy's hurt feelings have ANY impact on the success of the team.

In short, had the suspension not occured (either nothing happens, or a private butt-chewing happens) neither the station nor the team would have suffered any mesureable negative impact. Wilner would be butthurt and publicly crying about it and those who don't like him would laugh and life would go on.

Now, having booted the play, 590 and by extension Rogers and even Cito have been tarnished over an incident that was barely a blip.

laying aside any consideration of "fairness" or propriety, it's still stupid business.

Oh, and by the way, if in fact it was the organizational philosophy of Fan590 to never speak ill of the Blue Jays and to always present the best possible image of the team, they are, as far as i can tell from this distance, missing the mark in far more ways than Wilner getting a bit pissy with Cito.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see how you can't give Cito a pretty large degree of credit for Jose Bautista's success.

As an aside to the main conversation, while I disagree with a lot of Cito's in-game management (though to be honest, not so often lately) - I don't have any problem at all tipping my hat to the reality that he does seem to have a golden touch when it comes to saying "this guy is good" about some player that the rest of us don't see much in and proving to be right. Maybe it's just coincidence that he's done it two years in a row, but it's still worth while to give props for.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn’t moral indignation fun?  Especially when it permits us us to huff and puff over such matters as this, as if it were of the utmost importance?   A “radio personality” is, apparently, chastized for being uncivil in some of  his ‘professional’  activities.  Whoaa!

Every bit as much fun as being a pretentious smart-ass about what other people chose to comment on.

(And Will Rain, to borrow from Mr. Blair,  Da Box is not about you:  not, not, not.  You needn’t feel obliged to respond, and so verbosely at that, to every post.  It’s O.K.

Well, I'm certainly relived to know that, kind sir. Until now I was feeling the heavy weight of having to drag myself to the keyboard and bere my soul to an uncaring world. *sigh*

Here's a thought, if it's not about me, why do you feel the need to interrupt an ongoing discussion to...talk about me?

but hey, since you brought it up, let me draw you a picture:

Most of you people live in the Toronto area, or at least in Canada. A nice long baseball discussion about the Jays, or Cito, or Bautista, or Alex is as close as your nearest bar, uncle, or water cooler.

i not only live 900 miles from Canada, but I live 7 hours from the nearest major league team. I have ONE regular real world acquaintence who give's a rat's arse about the entire friggin sport of major league baseball and a conversation with him means as much discussion of his beloved White Sox as of the Jays.

So when I want to talk about the team, I have to do it on-line. Every water-cooler discussion, ever night at the game, ever beer at the bar, every visit with gramps, every call to Wilner, that you guys spend talking Jays baseball - I have to cram ALL of that into posts on blogs and message boards.

So, ya know, if it's not to big an offense to your delicate sensibilities, i'll go right on replying to every post if I bloody well feel like it until and unless the management bans me, not because I'm oblidged to but because I ENJOY IT.

Please, do let me know if my doing so violates your civil rights or any such thing.

/rant


TamRa - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 12:41 AM EDT (#216321) #
Mike Wilner is *not* a journalist.  And anyone who thinks that the Fan590 might even conceivably be  “a credible news outlet” cannot be taken seriously, about pretty much anything.  Sorry.)

Um...I SAID that Wilner wasn't a journalist. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

As to "credible news outlet" - do you refer to only that part which relates to the Jays, or overall? if the Raptors have a coaching change, do they not report it as news on the Fan? Do the personalities there not discuss whether it was deserved or whether the new guy will make changes or whatever?

How does this distinguish them from, for instance, ESPN?

If they are not "credible" then why do sports teams unrelated (in a business sense) to the station have personnel and players on for interviews? i mean if they are the "Weekly World News" of the Toronto airwaves, no serious athlete or coach or GM should associate themselves with them, right?

It's true I don't live there and thus can't be considered a regular listener - but if a station which (a) broadcast games; (b) directly reports the occurance of events (commonly called "news") related to the teams; and (c) offers up commentary about said events, both from the principals involved, and from station employees and callers; cannot be considered, by virtue of that business model, to be a "credible news source" then I'm forced to conclude that no sports oriented station in the world is, nor are TV broadcast channels such as ESPN.

The fact that an individual listener may find themselves in disagreement with the station is not sufficent to deem them without credibility.

Of course, the possibility exist that the station does, in fact, see itself as the "house organ" for all Toronto sports teams and disallows criticism. but if this is true, while it would indeed undermine their credibility, it would also imply two strange things: (1) they inconsistantly apply the muzzle; and (2) Wilner was disciplined for being MORE credible than was allowed  -which I presume is not in fact your argument.

observer2010 - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#216323) #

Whether it is fielding calls on "Jays Talk" or asking questions of Cito Gaston, I think Mike Wilner should consider taking a somewhat more diplomatic and thoughtful approach.  He's a knowledgable person, who does his homework and takes his job seriously, but he needs to apply his knowledge more respectfully.  He needs to reflct, not only on what he's saying but on the way he expresses himself to people who may have ideas or opinions which differ from his own.  I don't know if that is possible at this stage in his career but perhaps it may be.

 

uglyone - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 03:59 AM EDT (#216326) #
I love when people try to boil down the argument to its essence.

let me try:

  1. Wilner is a no-nothing dork with no knowledge or experience.
  2. Cito is a two-time WS winning manager who is the current favorite for manager of the year.
  3. no-nothing dork aggressively and ridiculously criticizies said two-time WS winning current manger of the year favorite at every opportunity, unsatistified with merely accepting fair answers to his unfair questions.

Conclusion: Wilner should shut the hell up already, eat a large slice of humble pie, and realize that if he was managing, the Jays would be in last place.

Spifficus - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 05:37 AM EDT (#216327) #
I think there are a few nuances to the argument that you may have left out of your summation due to space concerns. Or you may have ran out of straw.
Flex - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#216334) #
I further recommend this account of the event in the National Post:

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/06/05/commentary-wilners-weekend-off-does-disservice-to-audience/
Dewey - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#216342) #
Some fugitive observations on this matter.

1. I liked Wilner when I listened to him in previous years.  I haven’t heard him this year.  I’m not primarily concerned with Mike Wilner.

2. My primary concern was with a sense of proportion.  This thread was getting very over-heated, but offering little illumination for all the heat.  And Will Rain’s interminable commentary (a form of rudeness, as I see it)  finally provoked my own rudeness.  For which I apologize.  But my comment, despite his assumption, was not ‘all about him’.   When Flex and Mr. Carrot (lapsed journalists?),  start invoking the Gulf War and “principles”,  it gets a bit much.  What about Wilner’s foregoing a basic principle,  respect for his interviewee?   Simple decency counts.  And he didn’t show much on this occasion.  He has now become the issue; but he’s not a martyr to some grand cause.

3. O.K., Will Rain, this part is directed to you:  Your own primary focus seems too often to be upon yourself.  It’s nice that you enjoy using Da Box as if it were your own personal board,  but have some consideration for your readers (a sure sign of a competent writer).  Maybe others don’t enjoy it so much.  Screen after screen of commentary is simply self-indulgent.  It’s unfortunate that your living circumstances are so constrained;  but that doesn’t give you license to treat the site as your own.

CSHunt68 - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#216343) #
I agree with Dewey, entirely.
I've been listening to Wilner forever, and he seems quite different this year - much more abrasive than usual, and, frankly, sacrificing logic and balance for stubbornness.
katman - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#216346) #
_"Cito may not make the best tactical decisions always (and goodness knows I've been frustrated) but clearly he is doing something right, as the Jays are surpassing all reasonable expectations. "_

Actually, there's no necessary relationship between these things. Was Cito significantly more stupid last year, when the team was below expectations? Was there something in his wheaties this summer that made him a different manager?

What he's doing right, is mostly being in this place at this time. And giving Bautista his chance has been a decision that has paid dividends. Beyond that, there are legit questions. No manager makes good decisions all the time. But I've never heard of a manager whose on-field managing decisions (as opposed to personality interactions) created a player revolt.

The team has its record in spite of Cito's tactical decisions (which, for any manager, are only a few games either way), not because of them. That matters in this division, though it probably won't cost us a playoff spot this year. Wilner is asking questions that most fans I talk to are also wondering about. In other words, he's doing his job.

As for the personality/ journalist distinction, it's complete b.s. He's employed by the media, he's part of the Q&A session, he's acting as a journalist. Period. There are no tiered classes of those, with different rights.

If the team doesn't want Wilner in the conferences, they can bar him. That's true no mater who Wilner is. But the team didnt do that.

This is about a radio station suspending one of its members because he chose to ask a tough question, and pursue a straight answer. That's way outside ethical boundaries, and no different from suspending a reporter who wrote a negative story about Rogers corporation. Rogers could legally do that, too, and the reasoning of the people here supporting them would say that's completely reasonable. It's their company, and if they want to come down on any of their media properties so they never report anything bad about Rogers (or, for that matter, about any politicians Rogers supports), then what's the problem?

I think most people here are sensible enough to understand that this would be a pretty big problem.

What you think of Wilner here really doesn't matter. There are standards of independence in journalism for important reasons, and they've been broken. That's a problem.

It's also, I'd argue, a stupid thing for Rogers to do. They're a big player in Canada, in a heavily regulated industry. If they start raising questions about their standard of coverage, and influencing journalists' reporting, they're going to make themselves a big target. The smart approach is to maintain standards absolutely, so it never comes into question - about big things, or small things.
herby2 - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#216371) #

I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Wilners knowledge of baseball,however i do not appreciate the way he responds to the majority of his lisening audience. He gives many answers of knowing it all with no respect to the caller.I would like to give you one very good example.I called him and suggested that his idea of statistics being more important  for a player did not really hold water. I explained to him that if aplayer had a very high batting average and had 4 singles in agame to bring his average stataistics up means  nothing,because if a player had low statistics and hit a game winning hit or home run in the bottom of the ninth  inning is far more impotant because it won the game.I might add that i also stated this in his blog,and his reply to me that he did not have time for me.So it was quite obvious to me he did not want to discuss the subject any further as i problably made sense and it just did not suit him. I would suggest very strongly that it does not cost anything to be nice or respectfull to his listners,and up to now he has not shown that he does.

   Thank You for taking the time to read this article.

stevieboy22 - Sunday, June 06 2010 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#216380) #
I just want to weigh in on a couple of things...

- People get way to upset on this board when Wilner comes up. Really, hes just a radio personality. I tend to think that if Roger Lajoe, Norm Rumack, or some other generic boring personality was on, people couldn't careless.. Say what you want, he at least brings passion out of fans..

- I love this board, but the personal attacks need to stop. This board is better than that. If you are going to take the time to attack someone you don't even know on a message board, I would suggest doing some deep soul searching. You probably can find better things to do with your time.

- Bottom Line: This suspension is a joke. He was suspended for doing his job. Whether you like him or not is irrelevant. If this was Richard Griffin, Dave Feshuck, or someone else I dislike, I would still be appalled by the suspension.



Dave Till - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 07:33 AM EDT (#216393) #
I never listen to sports talk radio (or talk radio of any kind), so I don't have an opinion on this.

But putting "journalism" and "baseball" in the same sentence is possibly being too over-serious. It's all basically entertainment: it's not like Wilner was being censured for his opinions on the BP oil spill or something.

And suspending Wilner for a weekend will probably increase his ratings when he returns to the airwaves. Perhaps Rogers is playing a deeper game than we know...

Dave Till - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 07:36 AM EDT (#216394) #
"Too over-serious" is redundant. Gack. I need to proofread better. Or not post in the morning.
electric carrot - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#216409) #
"It's all basically entertainment: it's not like Wilner was being censured for his opinions on the BP oil spill or something."


Oh Jeez ... OK here goes. Sports and Entertainment ARE realms where we get to "play." But to say they are not serious is seriously missing the point. Neither would have any power if they did not have rich symbolic value in the less playful world of oil spills, crazy wars, economic downturns and let's say more personal quests like say trying to get to SECOND BASE with a girl. I would say at this moment in time sports and entertainment have MORE power than any number of more important things like parliamentary debates, only because this is what many of us choose to pay the most attention to and as such it becomes the predominant language of how we deal with more important things. Ever notice how election coverage is constantly covered as if it was an elaborate strategic sporting event with winners and losers rather than dealing with the actual issues of the campaigns. Or that political leaders are treated more and more like celebrities than political leaders. Or (as suggested earlier) that we constantly use sporting language in the realm of personal and/or sexual conquests. This is not accidental. So in the elaborately symbolic realm of sports where a reporter is snuffed out for not being a PR hack for the company that co-owns both the radio station and the team, this I believe has symbolic power. Same with not punishing for the use of steroids -- even moreso -- as I have argued in earlier posts. The message in the latter is "go ahead and cheat" and in the former "power trumps truth." As for the actual consequences of any info Wilner might have gleaned -- it's absolutely trifling. But in the symbolic realm -- the one where sports has its real power -- it's important.
Mike Green - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#216412) #
If you're going to go all Blomkvist, you might take a closer look at Nadir Mohamed's bonuses and how much was spent on the ballclub last year.  But then, you wouldn't want to be working for him...
John Northey - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#216416) #
I think the key here is to note the dangers of one corporation owning too many things. While this is 'just' baseball and a reporter being suspended for questioning the actions of another part of the empire, picture what happens when a reporter for, say, the Globe criticizes CTV (or the reverse) as both are owned by the same group. Or how about if a columnist with the Post says something against another company the Asper's own?

The chill send down all reporters spines after this would've been strong. Do not go too strongly against those who run the company (or those who represent it at a higher level) or you will be punished. And that is the real danger.
Dewey - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#216428) #
O.K., electric carrot, I’ll take you seriously.

How exactly are sports and entertainment “important”;  except to sports and entertainment fans and to the sports and entertainment industries themselves?  What is this “symbolic realm” in which sport has its "real power"?  Can you say?  Not everyone is a sports fan, nor gives a damn about celebrities.  (Such people walk among us!)  There are said to be more than 6 ½ billion people in the world,  spread over 195 countries.  It’s a big world.  How many of those people, do you suppose, have even heard of the teams, players, or sports that preoccupy you?  Do you have any idea?  I don’t either;  but I know it must be a very small proportion of that 6 ½ billion.

Can you make clear what this “rich symbolic value” of sport is exactly?   It’s not  as self-evident as you suggest.   Yes,  people use metaphors and analogies drawn from sports in their speech:  they’re easily available to most of us.  (We use many metaphors drawn from horse-racing and sailing-ships, too, even though we’re sometimes not aware of it;  but neither area of experience is very important today.)  Baseball is entertainment; and a pleasant pastime; and a big business,  in our part of the world.   So it's important in those respects, I suppose -- for us anyway. 
 
Dewey - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#216430) #
Do not go too strongly against those who run the company (or those who represent it at a higher level) or you will be punished. And that is the real danger.
  
This sort of control seems to be spreading in many areas of experience, John.  As information becomes more easily and more quickly disseminated, more and more governments are trying to filter it, to get *their* message out, protect their “brand”.  That is the way the way things are at present.  We are moving closer and closer to police states.  Have a look at how Mr. Harper does it in this Globe article.

 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harpers-message-tool-reveals-hyper-extreme-control-critics/article1594049/
Matthew E - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#216434) #
How exactly are sports and entertainment “important”;  except to sports and entertainment fans and to the sports and entertainment industries themselves?

Well, let me answer that with another question.

Was it a significant event when Jackie Robinson suited up with the Brooklyn Dodgers? Or, was it a significant event when the U.S. and the Soviets boycotted the Olympics in the early '80s?

This sort of control seems to be spreading in many areas of experience, John.  As information becomes more easily and more quickly disseminated, more and more governments are trying to filter it, to get *their* message out, protect their “brand”.  That is the way the way things are at present.  We are moving closer and closer to police states.

All the more reason to fight against it. Wilnergate might not be the most important arena, or even close, but that doesn't mean it's not worth addressing.
Mike Green - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#216435) #
Back in the day, when the Blue Jays were owned by Labatt's/CIBC and the radio broadcaster was independent of them, I don't recall Tom or Early Wynn or Jerry or Scott Ferguson going out of their way to expose anything untoward, whether it be the Peter Bavasi story, Roy Hartsfield's issues with his players or anything else. 

Media concentration is definitely an issue of general importance, but it seems to me that it is a stretch to suggest that this controversy is an indication of further progress in our descent into a police state.   
Ryan Day - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#216437) #
Was it a significant event when Jackie Robinson suited up with the Brooklyn Dodgers? Or, was it a significant event when the U.S. and the Soviets boycotted the Olympics in the early '80s?

Let me answer those questions with yet another question. (And it's an honest question, because I don't know the answer)

Were those events covered by regular sports beat reporters, or by other, "real news" reporters? (obviously the beat reporters were there, but did the media also call in their "big guns"?)
electric carrot - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#216439) #
Thanks for the boost Matthew E. I'm beginning to feel less and less electric as the day progresses ... more coffee needed.

Mike Green - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#216440) #
Print media is a very different thing from broadcast media in baseball history, going back to Ring Lardner and others.  Some of America's best writers have written on baseball, and often critically.

The whole "White Jays" controversy, as misconceived as it was, came out of the print media which is where these things traditionally have arisen. 
John Northey - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#216441) #
One good thing - we have the internet now where any and all opinion can be sent out regardless of media control.

One bad thing - more and more people are counting on just the 'mainstream media' while ignoring other sources.

Media concentration has been an issue since mass media really grew in the past 120 years (pre-industrial revolution it was hard to get information outside of your town). Citizen Kane came about due to it (represented a mass-media owner who was far too influential in his day). In the 1960's Spider-man comics showed how one editor with control of a paper could push people to perceive something positive as a negative. In the past century many, many things have changed in ways never thought of before. Virtually anyone can communicate in seconds with thousands of others just by doing what we are doing here. Cheap, easy, fast. It will be interesting to see where it goes in the next few decades. Safe to say many more "Willner's" will be suspended or fired.
Dave Till - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#216442) #
I would say at this moment in time sports and entertainment have MORE power than any number of more important things like parliamentary debates, only because this is what many of us choose to pay the most attention to and as such it becomes the predominant language of how we deal with more important things.

I, humbly, suggest that you are confusing fame/notoriety with power/influence here. Millions of people know who Albert Pujols is, but Albert can't lead the economy out of recession (for example).

Of course, some athletes, musicians and entertainers become so wealthy and well-known that they can become influential: Arnold Schwarzenegger is now Governor of California, and Bono and Sir Bob Geldof, among others, have exerted real influence on the world. But this usually happens after the athlete or entertainer's original career is done.

And, as others have mentioned, sports metaphors are culture-specific and don't carry much global reach. (I'm a professional technical writer, and I would never use a sports metaphor in any of my documentation: many of my readers aren't from North America, or don't have English as a first language, and wouldn't have the slightest idea what I am talking about.)


Dewey - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#216444) #
I do think Wilnergate is "worth addressing",  Matthew; and I do think Robinson’s integration of baseball was extraordinarily important.  Not sure about the Olympics:  they tend to be about a lot of things besides sport.   I didn’t say, in any case, that sport was never important, or couldn’t be so.  (I’ve written to the contrary elsewhere.)   But this particular matter isn’t as ponderously significant as some here seem to claim.  (It also involves a couple of easily bruised egos,  for one thing.)   As I’ve tried to emphasize,  I’m concerned about perspective.  Among journalists, of course Wilnergate is of great importance.  But the rest of the population?   And blowing things *too* far out of proportion weakens,  rather than strengthens, one’s argument. 

Whenever a sports story impinges on some other area of popular interest, of course, it gets covered by other than sports writers.  Hell, Madonna and A-Rod were all the news for a short while, weren't they? 

As for police states, I appreciate that it might easily seem that I myself am blowing something out of proportion. ( I was trying to say that I did understand John Northey’s concerns.)  And I certainly hope my comment *was*, in fact, a stretch, Mike.   But I read a lot of international newspapers; and I am dismayed to see, over at least the past decade -- in Latin America, in Eastern Europe, in parts of Asia, even in the U.S under Bush/Cheney-- actions that look a lot to me like those of an incipient police state.  There has been a decided turn to “the right” around the world in that period, wouldn’t you agree?   How many countries in the world now actually do have a free press?  Very, very few.  That’s what Matthew E is saying, I expect. 
Mike Green - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#216448) #
Freedom of the press in the modern western world has had its ups and downs.  In America, you'd look at the McCarthy era, Vietnam, coverage of the coup in Chile, Watergate, Iran/Contra, Desert Storm, 9/11 and the Iraq war to try to ascertain a pattern, but it seems to me that it would look more like a stock market graph than anything else.  Amnesty, PEN and the like aren't going out of business anytime soon, but somehow I don't think that this event is high up on their list.  Personally, I'd rather write letters on behalf of those writers who are in danger than about something like this.

Back to baseball.

Sano - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#216449) #
I don't understand why this discussion has been sidetracked into a debate over the merits of sports journalism and whether it is 'important' or not.  It strikes me that the simple question here is whether or not Wilner can be fit into 'the press' and therefore benefit from the protections afforded to that group.  Clearly, I don't think that anyone would debate Wilner being 'a journalist'.  The debate about whether sports reporters are journalists of the same calibre as a NY Times journalist is besides the point.

In the end however, all of this is besides the point entirely since the Charter of Rights of Freedoms (which protects Freedom of the Press) does not apply to non-'governmental' entities (such as Rogers).  Wilner's claim, if he was to pursue one, would have to be made through the Ontario Human Rights Act or the federal Canadian Human Rights Act (the federal Act would apply if Rogers was a 'federal entity' for its purposes).

From a short perusal of the respective Acts, I think that Wilner doesn't really have a strong case as he's not been suspended on the basis of one of the prohibited grounds (race, sex, sexual orientation, etc) but rather because of something he did.  This would imply that Rogers has the right to deal with their employees in the manner that they choose to (provided they don't discriminate on any of the listed grounds).  Again, this opinion's just based off a two minute key word search of the federal and provincial Human Rights Act.

cascando - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#216454) #

I like that you started by saying that a debate about journalistic merit was "besides the point" and then took us into an analysis of legal remedies.  Because of course, doesn't every discussion ultimately boil down to determining under which legal authority one can seek recourse?

I file all of this under "not worth getting upset over".  If Rogers wants to discipline its employees for, essentially, acting wimpy on the Internet, so be it.  This isn't MacLean's issuing a blanket prohibition on criticism of the PMO, it is a sports-talk-radio host being told to go home, take a cold shower and report back on Monday.  I think the 4th and 5th estates will survive the ordeal.

Matthew E - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#216457) #
Sano, I don't think anyone thinks that Wilner's rights are being violated; the question is more whether his censure is contrary to the principles of journalism and contrary to the interest of baseball fans.
Sano - Monday, June 07 2010 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#216461) #
First, cascando, sorry if I turned this in too much of a 'legal direction' for you.  I can't help it, just finished first year law so this is how I'm thinking nowadays.  That being said, I don't quite understand your point. I feel I adequately differentiated between the debate around 'journalistic merit' and whatever legal remedies Wilner might have.  Is this something that should blow over and not be made into a big deal?  Yes.

@Matthew E- I thought I saw reference to the freedom of the press in the above posts.  If I'm wrong on that, I apologize.  "Principles of journalism" and "contrary to the interest of baseball fans" seem a bit too airy-fairy for me though.

Thomas - Wednesday, June 23 2010 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#217488) #
As per the "how Wilner talks about Cito on the air discussion" -> he just had a caller who called Cito "the worst manager in baseball" and said every fan hates Cito and Wilner's response was, "I don't think most fans feel that way." Not a word to challenge the caller on the substance of the comments against Cito.
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