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I suppose it's nice that at least one thing around here is just like 1993...

I don't know a whole lot about basketball. I never played it when I was a kid, it wasn't on the television, it never came within my radar range. But in 1995 the Raptors came to town, and naturally enough I began to at least pay a bit of attention. And with what seems to me to be the general decline and fall into irrelevance of the NHL (alas, the one sport I could actually play with something resembling competence) I've come to follow the Raptors fairly closely.

Plato has Socrates say that the beginning of wisdom is knowing that you don't know anything. It was the Yogi (who else?) who gave this insight its baseball formulation: "In baseball, you don't know nothing." And knowing, as I do, that I know nothing about basketball, I went to the fan sites for insight, support, understanding. Now 2009-10 was, I realize, a very disappointing season. What looked so promising just a couple of months ago went swirling down the drain, leaving a nasty smell in its wake. There is some unhappiness out there in Raptor Land. I understand that. Nevertheless, when I read the denunciations of the character and competence of the coach and general manager, the thought that went through my head was "Do we sound like that?"

That arrogant? That presumptuous? That full of ourselves?

Sometimes. 

Those of you who weren't around in 1992 and 1993 have probably been startled at the way some of us respond to criticism of Cito Gaston as a manager. A tad defensive, from time to time. No doubt about it. But Cito Gaston makes people go crazy. Stark raving nuts. He always has.

Many of us who were around in 1992 and 1993 were baffled by it at the time. The team was in first place, they were winning the World Series. What, you think that happens all the time? I remember someone (it was Mike Hogan, to be precise) suggesting that the Blue Jays should have won their division by at least 20 games, and probably would have done so if not for their strategically-challenged skipper. This was truly silly and stupid stuff, but you heard it everywhere and you heard it all the time. While they were winning. It drove me crazy.

It strikes me as exactly the same as complaining that sure, Jeff Bagwell hit all those home runs, but he wasn't using a proper batting stance. He should have hit many, many more.

And the undercurrent to all of this?

No, not race - at least, I've never thought so. Not then and not now. I have worried that could be an issue. I'm always going to be suspicious when a 66 year old black man is universally called by a nickname rather than his surname. I'm old enough to be paranoid and self-questioning about these things and so I don't do that. I also like to be contrary. I'm sure no one noticed, but I always referred to the former general manager as "Ricciardi", and never as "J.P." 

Well, he wasn't my buddy.

But no - I honestly have never thought racism was the issue here. I could be wrong - it's happened once or twice - and I certainly don't blame Gaston himself for suspecting such a thing. He grew up in the segregated south, you may recall - he turned pro when major league teams still used segregated facilities in spring training. Later in his career he got to room with Henry Aaron, who has a tale or two of his own about racism to share with everyone. Gaston knows first-hand things most of us are very fortunate not to know. But I always thought people were saying something else about him.

I always thought they were saying that he was too stupid for the job, that the wondrous subtleties of the game were beyond him.

Here's something from ths very site:

Scott Downs has always been an effective situational lefty... Cito doesn't seem to grasp this concept.

It's not the fact that this is completely wrong about Downs that is so irritating. (Although, come to think of it, that is pretty irritating.) It's the glancing, almost unconscious insult to the manager's intelligence, the insinuation that when confronted with something as mind-bogglingly complex as platoon splits, this poor fool from Texas with his high school education is out of his depth.

Well, give me a god damn break. Does anybody seriously think Cito Gaston does not understand platoon splits? That he's not aware that Randy Ruiz is a better hitter than John McDonald? And that given, does it not follow that he's basing his decisions on some other factor? How difficult is that? Really - if you do not understand that, just who is it that's having trouble grasping basic concepts around here anyway?

We generally do better than that around here. Bauxite 92-93 has made some very trenchant criticisms of specific game moves, and despite his (I'm assuming!) considerable irritation at times (in all fairness, I may have provoked him a time or two), has done so without implying that the manager is too dumb to understand what's at issue. Naturally, that's why I want to pick on him again. He wrote the other day that:

I don't judge moves by their outcome; I judge the decision with all the accessible information at the time it was made.

I don't really have a problem with that - is it Paul DePodesta who would say "trust the process?" - so long as we recognize one basic truth. We have but a portion of the information that is available to the guy who actually has to make the decision. Even worse, the part we don't have resists being reduced to numbers anyway. Whereas the manager, most assuredly, has access to everything we have. Everything I have, anyway.

Valid criticisms of Gaston are almost always based on some specific tactical decision he has made. Which may be indeed valid on that one level, but it's not the only level Gaston (or any major league manager for that matter) is required to operate on. All managers place a higher priority on some things than they do on others. Gaston manages as if he believes that maintaining his player' personal comfort zones is more important than specific tactical issues. I don't know if that's a strength or a weakness because I don't know if it's true or false. And neither do you. It's probably true for some players, not true for others. But we certainly don't know. And therefore it's utterly impossible to measure the consequences. We don't, and we never will, have any way to do that properly - we can only measure a part - and only a part  - of the tactical import. And while the tactical import may be the only part of the job that we can reasonably assess, it does not exist in splendid theoretical isolation. Tactical decisions do not take place in a vacuum.

Which is more or less special pleading. I recognize that, I'm not very happy about it. But it is what it is.

So last Wednesday afternoon, the Blue Jays lost 4-3 to the Royals in ten innings. The game ended with notorious non-hitter John McDonald, representing (sort of!) the tying run,  making the final out. But you wouldn't have known that if you missed the game and were reading the AP summary on ESPN, or the game stories submitted by Mark Zwolinski of the Star or Mike Rutsey of the Sun. That little tidbit didn't escape Jordan Bastian's notice, but he contented himself with explaining the situation:

Should the Jays have used pinch hitter Randy Ruiz in the 10th, going for a shot at tying the game with a solo homer rather than use McDonald? Sure, there's an argument to be made. But then who plays second in the 11th? Ruiz? Overbay?

On the other hand, there was this:

Of course there’s no guarantee that Ruiz does something positive, but there’s a FAR greater chance that he does.  A home run to tie the game, a hit or a walk just to keep things going.  Sure, if he gets on you can’t pinch-run for him, and he’s not especially fast, BUT YOU HAVEN’T LOST THE GAME YET! Yes, you have to worry about your defense, and had the game gone to an 11th inning, it would have been awfully ugly - BUT YOU’D BE PLAYING IN THE 11TH INNING WITHOUT HAVING LOST THE GAME YET

Uh-oh. I think we may have a case of Cito Derangement Syndrome on our hands. It's never a good sign (and on the Internets, I believe it is universally regarded as Bad Form) when you start submitting posts with the CapLock key engaged. You may also have noticed that  earlier in the same week Wilner had speculated that Gaston was running Overbay out there every day despite his horiffic early season slump, as a way to punish him for his role in last season's "mutiny."

 Quod erat demonstradum - this is an idea so bizarre, so thoroughly loopy, that one hardly knows how to respond except to shake one's head and say "Cito Derangement Syndrome. How sad." Wilner himself recovered his bearings and did his best to walk it back the following day, but we know the nature of his affliction. We have seen it for ourselves. 

We can all disagree about specific tactical decisions. We can sometimes even identify the correct tactical course of action, though not nearly as often as we like to think. I myself would have had Randy Ruiz bat in that situation. This is not because I believe in approaching an April game against the freaking Kansas City Royals as if it were GAME SEVEN OF THE WORLD SERIES (hey, that was fun.)  Nor because it measurably improves my chances of prolonging the game, which range all the way from Very Unlikely (McDonald has made an out in 72% of his career plate appearances) to Pretty Unlikely (Ruiz has mades out in 64% of his career plate appearances.) However, I think the chances of prolonging the game are so remote (even if Ruiz gets on base, you're almost certainly going to need at least two more hits to bring him in to score) that there's really nothing to lose by letting Ruiz hit. He can use the at bats.

But one of Gaston's basic principles in this type of situation is his extreme reluctance to send a player out to fill a defensive position he's not familiar with. He simply won't do it, and didn't even do it in the World Series (his big move was playing Paul Molitor at third base, a position he had previously played in almost 800 games.) Gaston worries about a) the player getting hurt, and b) the player getting embarassed. He worries about it far too much, I think. But we can disagree about this stuff. Many people honestly think Gaston should have chosen  to make whatever tactical decision can best be measured in terms of being a positive percentage move.

No manager in the history of the game has ever done that, of course - but it's the only thing we can speak about with any kind of knowledge at all. It's all we got. No wonder it often sounds as if we think it's the only thing that matters, even as we grudgingly recognize that it's not the only thing that actually... you know, exists.

The long-time minor league manager Rocky Bridges once quipped that there are three things every man thinks "he can do better than any other man: build a fire, run a hotel, and manage a baseball team." And by manage a baseball team, no one is thinking of coping with the daily media horde trying to squeeze something damaging but newsworthy out of you every day. No one's thinking about arguing with your GM about the useless reliever taking up space in your bullpen. They're thinking about making moves - changing pitchers, calling for the hit and run, juggling the lineup. The cool stuff. The stuff Tony LaRussa does. They're certainly not imagining just sitting in the dugout watching, while a bunch of guys who are half your age and make ten times the money hold your professional future in their hands. Which must be pretty well unbearable, when you think about it.

Most managers are desperately trying to exert some kind of control over the action, someway, somehow - precisely because so much of what goes on is out of their control. This may be why so many of them are alcoholics as well, but that's another story. Tony LaRussa may be the patron saint of over-managing, as Joe Posnanski writes so brilliantly in his look at LaRussa's work last week in the Cardials' marathon affair with the Mets. Cito Gaston is the other thing, the polar opposite. The very part of the job that people think of as a manager's central role is the very part of the job that Gaston places the least value on. He is not a control freak - he doesn't expect that the game is going to revolve around him, that he is going to have to be the star. So he's not particularly worried. He is not going to pace up and down, wheels turning away, sneaking cigarettes between innings, telling his boys to "keep it close and I'll think of something." He's just going to sit there and watch. Maybe make a pitching change or two.  

It's like he's deliberately rejected and turned his back on every popular notion we have of The Manager. No wonder he makes people crazy.

The strangest thing of all, of course, is this - tactically, the game as a whole is coming around to embrace principles Gaston has followed all along. Not because he was a visionary, not because of his profound influence. Sometimes his basic positions as a big-inning manager in the Earl Weaver tradition have simply become more widespread. Gaston never liked bunting very much. He always hated giving away outs on the base paths. He never had much use for the hit and run, although he was never exactly Earl ("I don't have even have a sign for the hit and run") Weaver about it.

More often though it's just that the weird cycles of the game have turned his way. Gaston never liked pinch hitting, mainly (I think) because he always liked to have his best hitters in the starting to lineup to begin with. Well, in the modern game, no one likes pinch hitting. It's disappearing. There were barely half as many pinch hit appearances in the AL last year as there were just ten years ago. And once again platooning is disappearing from the game, after a second vogue that lasted almost sixty years - and for much the same reason pinch hitters are vanishing. If you carry a seven man bullpen, you don't have those bats on the bench to use as pinch hitters or as parts of a platoon. This fits Gaston's managerial preferences to a tee - like the young Sparky Anderson, he always had a very strong preference for a set lineup, with a bench consisting of veteran guys who know they're bench players and won't raise a fuss about not playing. Gaston appreciates that from his bench guys, and will reward it when he can.

And the new stuff? Like a lot of modern managers, Gaston appears to believe in batter-pitcher matchups. Granted, this is generally frowned upon by modern statistical analysts. Of course, Earl Weaver and I think the analysts are full of hooey in this case. I don't think very much of the seven man bullpen either, which swept over the game in Gaston's absence,  He has taken to it like a long-lost friend, and probably wonders how he ever got along without one. Which figures - you may recall that in his very first full season as a major league manager, Gaston's Blue Jays set a major league record for fewest complete games by a pitching staff.

Silly me. I had actually wondered what Gaston would make of the seven man bullpen when he was rehired in June 2008, right after I described the move as "something the Leafs would do."

Only a handful of the hundreds of men who have managed in the majors have accomplished what Gaston and LaRussa have as managers. Which doesn't make either of them a good manager: it only means that they've been succesful. They've both been extremely unsuccessful as well, which didn't necessarily make them bad managers. I think it's pretty clear by now that in his third managerial post LaRussa has actually learned how to extend his shelf life beyond the normal five year limit that applies to almost every manager in the game's history. This is extremely uncommon; LaRussa himself was extended well beyond his useful shelf life in Oakland, but he's having a very good extended run in St. Louis. Even the most successful managers have trouble doing that - Dick Williams never lasted five seasons anywhere. Billy Martin made it through three seasons exactly once. Gaston couldn't do that either, despite a very impressive five year run, and for all the usual reasons (the needs of the team had changed, he grew too attached to players who had helped him win earlier.)  He couldn't in his first tour, anyway, and at this point in his career he'll never get a second chance. 

Week 3 - Cito Derangement Syndrome | 54 comments | Create New Account
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Thomas - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 07:30 AM EDT (#214174) #
Great article, Magpie. One of the best you've written on this website, which is saying something. But one of Gaston's basic principles in this type of situation is his extreme reluctance to send a player out to fill a defensive position he's not familiar with. He simply won't do it, and didn't even do it in the World Series (his big move was playing Paul Molitor at third base, a position he had previously played in almost 800 games.) Gaston worries about a) the player getting hurt, and b) the player getting embarassed. He worries about it far too much, I think. But we can disagree about this stuff.

I think this is something that many managers worry about and believe it is their duty to avoid. See: Frank Robinson's press conference after sending Matt LeCroy out to catch a couple of years. They see it as their duty to put their players in a position to succeed and not in one where they were inevitably fail, as you could argue Overbay or Ruiz would have at second base.

Many people honestly think Gaston should have chosen to make whatever tactical decision can best be measured in terms of being a positive percentage move. No manager in the history of the game has ever done that, of course - but it's the only thing we can speak about with any kind of knowledge at all. It's all we got. No wonder it often sounds as if we think it's the only thing that matters, even as we grudgingly recognize that it's not the only thing that actually... you know, exists.

This. Ask yourself you who think is the best manager in the game today. Tony LaRussa would be on my short list, but maybe you believe it's Francona or Torre or Scoscia or another manager. Guess what? Fans of those teams are complaining about those manager's moves. Torre's bullpen management has always been subject to criticism and last year some people questioned why he played Ron Belliard over Hudson in September. Francona's bullpen management and lineup decisions have been questioned before. Scoscia's use of his catchers has been the subject of much discussion.

No team's fans are ever happy with all the tactical decisions their manager makes. It just doesn't happen that way. Cito may make more questionable in-game moves than the aforementioned manages, but it's not as if the head-scratching and second-guessing would stop if he was replaced.

I agree with Magpie that when a normally logical commentator starts typing sentences in capitals and promoting ideas that are on their face patently ridiculous, it looks like a case of CDS.

robertdudek - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 07:50 AM EDT (#214176) #
People trying to put Gaston under the tactical microscope should just give it a rest.

His job this season is basically to develop talent and whatever the final score is on any given day doesn't mean a whole lot, as long as the team doesn't lose 110 plus games this season. 

The team very clearly does not have the horses to contend, but there are maybe 7 or 8 pieces of the contending puzzle on the team right now. As fans, we should be most interested in precisely those players and in others who might also become pieces of that puzzle.

The whole Ruiz-hitting-for-McDonald and other similar "issues" could not be less relevant right now.

greenfrog - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#214177) #
"The whole Ruiz-hitting-for-McDonald and other similar "issues" could not be less relevant right now."

I wonder whether Ruiz (or, for that matter, the rest of the team) feels that way. Why bother playing the games if you aren't playing to win? If I recall correctly, the blowup/near-mutiny that occurred last year happened when the team was out of contention. Besides, you would be hard-pressed to convince me that the players don't care about winning right now, even if they know that contention is a long shot.
Forkball - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 08:27 AM EDT (#214179) #
Bravo.

The best part of this season might be coming here Monday morning.

Spifficus - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 09:20 AM EDT (#214182) #

So... CDS. Is there a vaccine, or prescribed treatment? I want to be prepared in case I start noticing symptoms while watching a game. I have a "friend" that sometimes has a problem when Snider's on the bench against the Joe Saunders of the world. Uh, nevermind.

Thanks for crystallizing this feeling that I'm sure quite a few have had, Magpie.

Gerry - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#214183) #

Great stuff Magpie.

People have a tendency to want to "do something" when in a stressful situation.  Cito is the anti "do something" and so people assume he doesn't know or doesn't care.  But as Magpie notes Cito does things his way for his reasons and he isn't going to change.

Dewey - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#214184) #
They're thinking about making moves - changing pitchers, calling for the hit and run, juggling the lineup. The cool stuff. The stuff Tony LaRussa does.

An excellent piece, Magpie.  People think they know way more than they do.  It gets pretty bad on Da Box sometimes; (but it’s far worse elsewhere on the internet, the few times I’ve checked.  And it’s why I stopped listening to The Fan 590 years ago.)  Too many “fans” seem to think of the game as fantasy baseball, played with software instead of people.  And, as you point out, not all the ‘players’ are on the field or even in uniform.  Yogi was right:  “In baseball, you don’t know nothing.”
Rich - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#214185) #
His job this season is basically to develop talent and whatever the final score is on any given day doesn't mean a whole lot, as long as the team doesn't lose 110 plus games this season. 

The whole Ruiz-hitting-for-McDonald and other similar "issues" could not be less relevant right now.

Interesting perspective, and in the big picture, I agree.  I respect Mike Wilner, but it's only mid-April and the ranting is already getting a bit tiresome. 

At the same time, the team is still trying to sell tickets and hoping fans tune in to this season's games.  Gaston surely has his reasons for not putting in a superior hitter when losing at the end of a close game - I just don't think they're good ones, whatever they are, and this non-move comes across as being asleep-at-the-switch.  Like most fans, I don't expect much in the way of results this year as the Jays are just too lacking in talent, but it's not unreasonable to ask the organization to do its best to try and come out on top in the games that seem winnable.
Mike Green - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#214186) #
Like most fans, I don't expect much in the way of results this year as the Jays are just too lacking in talent, but it's not unreasonable to ask the organization to do its best to try and come out on top in the games that seem winnable.

True.  Who are the players currently on the team who have a reasonable chance to be contributors 3 years from now?  Lind, Snider, Wells, Hill, Romero, Marcum, Cecil, Morrow, Eveland, Janssen and Accardo.  That is stretching it a bit, perhaps.  It's easy to see why a trip to Lansing or Auburn might be the most fun for a fan. 
John Northey - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#214188) #
The killer for me was listening to Wilner after the Jays game with the McDonald/Ruiz situation. The way he was going I wondered if someone would have to call in an ambulance as he was going to have his head explode the way he was going. I always hunt for baseball stuff on the radio but that time I had to switch the channel as it was unlistenable.

The biggest part of a managers job is to put the right guys on the field at the start of the game. Lineup order and in-game maneuvers are all minor issues compared to getting the right 9 in the lineup and the right 5 in the rotation. Cito (or Mr. Gaston if you prefer) does a good job of this, although he'll drive people nuts by platooning young kids. Still, who would you play instead on a day-to-day basis? Ruiz is NOT the future (sorry, he just isn't) and others like Bautista are placeholders until kids are ready to be called up.

If, at mid-season, Wallace is ready then Overbay _will_ be dealt or released. If, at mid-season, JPA is ready to catch then expect Molina to find himself in AAA or released. And so on. This year is about the kids, getting them ready for the future. Perhaps Snider needs the confidence that getting a higher avg/slg/obp against one type of pitchers will give him. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt there. Ruiz is getting ML service time and salary which will make him very, very happy even if he lives on the bench. I suspect the bench (McDonald/Ruiz/Molina/injury replacements) has two purposes - one, to be ready to fill in when needed and two, to not complain. Anything else is a bonus.
Mylegacy - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#214193) #
When I was in High School my then football coach told us at the start of the season - "My job is UNIQUE on this team. Each of your jobs is to give 100% and play the best you can. MY job is to win. MY job is to put you where I think your skills will best help us win. You might be interested in your stats - I'm not - I'm interested in using you the way that I THINK best helps the team win - period."

SO - that's what I always thought - and more or less still do. But professional baseball is complicated. The same guys play offense and defense - a guy can be a gold glove defensive guy who can't hit to save his life - or visa versa - or in the some cases versa visa. The season isn't long - it's MURDEROUSLY long - a 162 game marathon - more IF you're lucky. During the course of the season almost EVERY player is injured at some point, for some time. How long do you let a guy "play" himself back into shape? How long do you give a struggling relief pitcher to get himself back on track? Will a guy who loves you because you're willing to stick with him that extra mile when he was struggling - or injured and under performing like Wells was last year - will that "trust" pay more dividends over the long haul than micro-managing? Is it true as the as the wise man once said - "Baseball is 90% physical and the other 50% is mental."

One thing IS TRUE - Managers - like GM's - are hired to be fired.

Cito IS a players Manager. HIS coaching philosophy is that if a guy with %50 tools can give me %100 then I'm getting %150 from the guy - which he thinks is better than a guy with %100 tools only giving %20 - sort of how some GM's think about certain players - as one famous GM once said about a certain slugger - "The guy doesn't even like to play baseball." - or something like that.

WHATEVER - I respect Cito. I respect HIS philosophy. I respect HIS RIGHT to eventually get fired doing what HE BELIEVES is the right thing. I reserve the right to yell - for him and against him - but my bottom line is I KNOW Cito knows more about baseball in his baby finger than I do in my whole body - I know Cito WANTS TO WIN - Cito be Frank Sinatra - "Do it YOUR way." We get one shot at life - one day you'll be fired - DON'T get fired for NOT doing it your way.

I love you Cito. I respect you Cito. To me you'll ALWAYS be on the Jays wall of STARS - do it your way big man. Me - I'm in your corner - come Hell, come High Water - I'm with you - until the day I fire you - but EVEN THEN - I'm still gonna love you and respect you.

God, I need a scotch.

uglyone - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#214194) #

Standing Ovation!

great article.

Nothing bugs me more about the criticism of Cito than the criticism that he's too stupid or ignorant to understand the tactical implications of his decisions. I have no problem with people disagreeing with his decisions, but the assumption that Cito is too dumb to realize the intricacies of L/R splits is just silly. We can all safely assume that Cito has access to the same stats that we do, and that he makes his decisions with those numbers in mind - but obviously doesn't prioritize the same factors as the average teenage fan with no baseball experience does (crazy, I know).

on another note, people just have to stop listening to Wilner as if he's some fount of baseball wisdom. The guy is just a fan. A fairly clever one (and a particularly dorky one), but just a fan. Nothing more.  He has a well articulated opinion, but it's no more valuable than most posters' opinions here. He's always tended towards unfounded arrogance in his attitude, and it only seems to be getting worse.

uglyone - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#214195) #

True.  Who are the players currently on the team who have a reasonable chance to be contributors 3 years from now?  Lind, Snider, Wells, Hill, Romero, Marcum, Cecil, Morrow, Eveland, Janssen and Accardo.  That is stretching it a bit, perhaps.  It's easy to see why a trip to Lansing or Auburn might be the most fun for a fan. 

Funny, that looks to me like the entire starting rotation and the heart of the batting order - i.e. the entire core of the team - that you're telling us is here already.

With guys like Rzep/Mills/Roenicke/Wallace/Arencibia knocking on the door.

 

 

 

 

Spicol - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#214196) #

re: Wilner...remember when he began and he was rather ordinary? From the beginning, he knew a lot about baseball and was refreshing in that he had a handle on newer baseball stats and strategy. It seemed that he could have been (and likely was - Hi Mike!) part of the "Zombie Like Cult" and I appreciate him...still do. But he didn't opine a tremendous amount back then and I certainly don't ever recall him doing so with vitriol the first few years. As a result, I wouldn't say he was a terribly interesting broadcaster to the regular Joe Fan, the guy who makes 75% of the calls to JaysTalk. Now, with the Jays pretty much written off this season but Wilner still needing ratings, don't you think there is a certain amount of pressure to find topics of conversation that are interesting to Joe Fan? What else is he supposed to do over a 162 game schedule? Bashing the coach is something Toronto fans are used to and rather good at and clearly it makes for an enraptured radio audience. It is McCown's whole schtick, after all.

John Northey - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#214197) #
Well, that lineup would be DH (Lind), RF (Snider), CF (Wells), 2B (Hill), the rotation (Romero/Marcum/Cecil/Morrow/Eveland) and 2 members of the pen (Janssen/Accardo).

Applications are out for 1B/SS/3B/LF (or CF or RF) and many bullpen positions. Wallace/assorted/unknown/Sierra?/failed starters are the planned replacements right now.
92-93 - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#214198) #

Tremendous piece Mags.

Gaston worries about a) the player getting hurt, and b) the player getting embarassed. He worries about it far too much, I think. But we can disagree about this stuff.

And we will. I stated in that thread that I had no problem with Clarence letting JMac bat with 2 outs in the 10th in that situation, and that any tactical errors had been made long before it came down to that. Baseball players are creatures of habit, and most have likely been sticking to their routine for a long time. Everybody knows Clarence's old lose one today to win two tomorrow philosophy, and I believe that's exactly what was at play there. Second base is not a position that you can just go out and play risk-free; there should be lots of diving involved, and once a runner gets on first there's tremendous concern for your 2B if he has no clue what he's doing. Poor positioning and not knowing how to straddle the bag could have reprecussions on a stolen base attempt, with the potential for spiking and other injuries caused by awkward movements.  A groundball to SS and he might be asked to turn two, and all of a sudden he's accepting a toss in a position he's never been in and then trying to swing his body around  in one motion to nail the guy at first, all while the runner is bearing down on him and making every effort to make sure the 2B has no legs to make that throw.  If the player isn't used to something like that all of a sudden he has his hips turning in an uncomfortable motion, and MLB baseball is played at such a frightening speed (the actual play, not the time of game) that these concerns are very real. One only needs to remember Scott Downs last year being allowed to pinch hit, trying to leg out an infield single, and immediately seizing up and going down for the remainder of the year. I'm sure Clarence remembers that.

Just to touch on the Ruiz thing - Wilner had a caller yesterday suggesting Occam's Razor, that Clarence just dislikes Ruiz, and Wilner appropriately scoffed at the notion. However, a commenter on his blog points out something interesting - if you listen to the Clarence's pre-game interview, when asked about McCoy in the lineup he was effusive with his praise of Mike; however, when asked about Randy getting a start, nary a word about Ruiz was said, and the focus was about giving Overbay a day off against a tough lefty and how he could get guys some rest without an upcoming offday for awhile. It's something to chew on.

If Ruiz isn't in the plans barring an injury there's really no reason for him to be on the MLB roster, knowing that Clarence doesn't PH; he should be sent to Vegas to get regular ABs and stay sharp in case of injury, or, in the spirit of what we heard all spring, be released/traded to a club willing to give him a fair shake. If Dopirak is good enough to be preventing such a move because he needs everyday AB then the team is best off allowing Ruiz a chance to catch on elsewhere and preserving a good image to entice non-roster invitees and the likes in the future.

This. Ask yourself you who think is the best manager in the game today. Tony LaRussa would be on my short list, but maybe you believe it's Francona or Torre or Scoscia or another manager. Guess what? Fans of those teams are complaining about those manager's moves.

Joe Maddon is an angel in all facets of the game. I also was pretty fond of John Gibbons and felt that he was doing the most with what he was being given. Maybe not playing at the MLB level (or very little of it) better qualifies a guy to manage an MLB club, in that they can properly approach the job from a managerial aspect and not be too concerned with how the players are feeling, because they never experienced that. You certainly see all the time excellent players failing as managers in all different sports, and I wonder if there's something to this.

dan gordon - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#214200) #

I've always found Gaston to be a frustrating guy to have as the manager.  I understand what he's doing - the whole business about getting more out of your players if you treat them well, don't erode their confidence by pinch hitting for them, etc etc.  Sometimes this seems to work, such as with Devon White back in the World Series years.  White played very well here, better than elsewhere, batting leadoff, even though he wasn't that good a leadoff hitter.  He liked hitting leadoff, and he hit better in the leadoff position, so Gaston hit him in the leadoff position.  Certainly the team seemed to play much better for Gaston when he replaced Gibbons.  I just think he takes it too far.  I would think there is some middle ground.  As an example, this recent refusal to pinch hit for McDonald when he represented the Jays last chance in the game.

The other thing I have found with Gaston is that he is incredibly stubborn in his views on players.  That can result in players continuing to be played when there are superior alternatives, and in good players sitting on the bench and not being used.

I always thought Gaston was a fine hitting coach, and enjoyed hearing him talk about hitting back when he was the hitting coach, but it didn't take long in his first go round as manager before I became aware of the issues regarding his managing techniques.  I was happy when they brought somebody in to replace him back in the 90's and I will be happy when they replace him after this season.  I always get the feeling the Jays are at a disadvantage when it comes to the late innings - other managers know Gaston won't make moves, so they can get the matchups they want almost with impunity.  Instead of thinking, "well, if I bring in this lefty here, he brings in this pinch hitter, and then if I go back to this other guy, he brings in this other guy", the opposing manager can simply put in whoever he wants and get the advantage over the existing lineup.

Of course, who knows what the next guy will be like.  No doubt there will be criticism of whoever is the manager.  There are always things you can disagree with. 

uglyone - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#214203) #

Well, that lineup would be DH (Lind), RF (Snider), CF (Wells), 2B (Hill), the rotation (Romero/Marcum/Cecil/Morrow/Eveland) and 2 members of the pen (Janssen/Accardo). Applications are out for 1B/SS/3B/LF (or CF or RF) and many bullpen positions. Wallace/assorted/unknown/Sierra?/failed starters are the planned replacements right now.

I think we have some impressive candidates applying for the 1B (Wallace), C (D'Arnaud/Arencibia) and SS (Hechevarria/Pastronicky) positions.  That would give us some legit top-end talent at every position other than 3B and one of the corner outfield spots.

And if Romero, Marcum, Cecil, Morrow, Drabek are our front-5 going forward (nice and talented fivesome with 4 of them being 1st round picks), then there's a load of pitching talent left over for the 'pen (and these starters don't have to be "failed starters" to go into the 'pen, they just have to be not as good as those front-5 starters) in Rzepczynski, Mills, Stewart, Eveland, Litsch, McGowan, Jenkins, Roenicke, Janssen, Accardo, Carlson, Purcey, Farquhar, Collins.

and the only guy currently older than 28 anywhere there is Verno.

 

 

 

Mylegacy - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#214207) #
Going forward I see EIGHT solid (maybe quite a bit better than "solid") - internal position players from 2012 to 2015(ish):

 Wells LF, Snider RF, Hill 3rd, Hech SS, Pierre 2nd, Wallace 1st, D'Arnaud C, Lind DH and somehow - somewhere - AA's gotta find us a CFer.

Pitching - it looks like Romero, Morrow and Cecil will all develop into mid-rotation horses. Drabek and Alverez could both be number 1 or 2 guys - and - Scrabble, Mills, Stewart - and others - could also be solid mid-rotation guys. Not to mention Tiny Tim and a gaggle of other relievers who look yummy.

James W - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#214208) #
Definitely a great article; an enjoyable read!

When I got to the end, what was left in my mind was bullpen usage. Merkin Valdez had pitched in 1 of the first 18 games this year. I would say "Couldn't that roster spot be put to better use?" except the bench isn't exactly being overused anyway.
westcoast dude - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#214211) #
If Dana Eveland needs to pick up a win tonight in order to get some respect, then so be it. Tonight's game is the test.  Stop the losing streak.  A crooked 2 for an ERA is OK..
John Northey - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#214215) #
Fun thread, great article.

So, where to go with Ruiz vs Gaston (hrm, doesn't work, just makes me think of Beauty & the Beast, price of having 3 girls and a wife who all love Disney).

I think Cito isn't a fan of guys who A) look like they belong in a beer league (remember David Wells?) B) cannot play the field and C) have been on drugs. I suspect by June we'll see Ruiz sent back to AAA with some slugger from there coming up here - be it Wallace to play everyday or Brian Dopirak to fill that right handed power platoon position.

It might also just be us going nuts about some guy who pounded the ball last September who won't hit his weight facing regular season opposition. His slugging in September earned him more ML time, but he isn't the best option if you want to trade Overbay and keep Lind out of the outfield. We'll see more of Ruiz in the next two weeks I suspect as the Jays decide if they should keep him or not.
China fan - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#214218) #
I'm not so sure that Cito actually dislikes Ruiz.   If you go back a couple of months, Cito was repeatedly quoted as saying that Ruiz has hit everywhere he played and that he's quite capable of hitting 30 homers in the majors.  (I don't have time to dig up the verbatim quotes, but I clearly remember his praise for Ruiz.)   I don't think September is necessarily a completely false month for assessing players, and Ruiz hit absolutely everywhere he played in 2009 and the spring of 2010.   If Ruiz is not playing much today, I suspect it is mostly a result of Cito's reluctance to pinch-hit and his reluctance to find room for players who lack defensive talents.   I don't think it's a knock on Ruiz himself, I think it's the simple reality that a Ruiz-type player has little role in a Cito-type system.
Magpie - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#214220) #
So I'm down at Gate 9 checking in for tonight's game and I find myself standing beside Joe Carter. (Being towered over by Joe Carter is probably more accurate.) I'll tell you this - he's about my age, and the man is Looking Good. Really good. Life is so not fair. Later I heard him talking to a gaggle of reporters - I was walking by and all I heard him say was something like "... baseball. I mean, I never worked a day in my life..."

Sheesh.

And from the Boston game notes - on this day in 1912, Hugh Bradley hit the first home run ever at Fenway Park, the 2nd (and last) of his career.

How did I not know that?
Magpie - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#214221) #
A final thought about Gaston and managers. (Hey, you write these things to a deadline, and stuff occurs to you afterward!) It strikes me that managers function as a kind of stand-in for the fan - they're our representative on the team. They can't swing a bat or throw a pitch - all they could do is fret and worry. Which is all we can do. Gaston, of course, doesn't seem to fret and worry very much.

I forget which manager it was who explained that he never took the game home with him, because he always left in a bar somewhere first. Wilner confesses, in that very post I referred to earlier, that he actually had to cool down before he started to write it. That's how fans react, that's how most managers react - there are so many stories of Billy Martin or Gene Mauch trashing the post-game clubhouse spread in their rage and frustration after a tough loss. ("Some guys throw tables. Hutch throws rooms.") Gaston just doesn't get that worked up about it all, which feels like a betrayal of some unspoken shared code....
CaramonLS - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 08:11 PM EDT (#214222) #
"If you think and treat someone like they're an idiot, chances are they'll meet your expectations of being an idiot."

Magpie, you make a good point, and I think Cito lives by this philosophy - it is the same in every single industry in the world.  If you pull John MacDonald in every single important AB situation, there is a good chance he'll never develop the ability to hit in that situation and it will probably affect his overall hitting.  People rise and fall according to your expectations.  I'm sure Cito believes that if he leaves Jmac in those type of situations throughout the year, it will payoff overall.  Maybe get you another 5 hits throughout the course of the year, because of the confidence he has in his own abilities. 

Of course, there is the other side of the coin - setting people up for failure by putting them in situations where they can't succeed. 

So is this the case of the former or the latter? 

CeeBee - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#214223) #
Great piece, Magpie :) You put so eloquently into words what most of us can only dream of saying.
JohnL - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#214225) #
Have to echo all those other comments about what a great article this was, one truly enjoyable to read. It brought to mind another one of yours from a few years ago that was also (for me) remarkable in its quality, thought-provoking ability, and sheer enjoyment.. That was (co-incidentally or not), the one analyzing Gaston's managerial approach based on Bill James' methodology. One of the things that struck me about that piece was how much I appreciated it both for for how well you expressed thoughts I'd had about Cito's managing style AND for showing aspects if I didn't know, and perhaps previously thought exactly the opposite.

As the "Cito arguments" go on here, I've been recalling an article I was sure was posted on this site several years ago but haven't been able to find. It was an analysis of managerial moves (made and not made) during the 1992 ALCS and World Series (maybe the 93 series too). The point wasn't to decide who made the "best" decisions, but to compare their results. And decisively during those series, based on that criteria. Gaston "out-managed" two of baseball's managerial giants, Larussa and Cox.

Thanks again for a great read.

Petey Baseball - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#214226) #
"Keep em close and I'll think of something"

Great Charlie Dressen reference, Magpie. According to Ernie Harwell, that was his trademark line.

Mick Doherty - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#214227) #

Mags, a terrificalistically wonderfulicious piece. (When I have to make up words to describe something, well, then ...) As you wrote to me once several hundred threads ago, Well done. I am gnashing my teeth in jealousy.

Here's a challenge for you -- for real. Pare this back to 400-500 words or so, while incorporating some of the salient points in the comments, and submit it for publication on the editorial page of the Toronto ____ (fill in name of your favorite local paper). It's really that good. It's just a bit beyond the limits of print, length-wise, you know!

Anyway, whether you do or not -- Bravo!

92-93 - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#214229) #

The point wasn't to decide who made the "best" decisions, but to compare their results.

The Jays won the World Series in both years, so it sounds like a riveting article.

Gerry - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#214230) #

The Jays care foundation is selling a $100 gift pack.  It includes a Cito bobblehead.  All the Cito haters can buy one and use it as a voodoo doll.  And it is for charity.

There is a Johhny Mc bobblehead in there too and well as a signed picture and some other stuff.  I just bought one.

TamRa - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#214231) #
(written in reaction to the OP not having read the rest of the thread)

The last time I went on a rant about Cito is, i think, illustrative of my overall approach to this sort of thing.

I said in that post that I have always started with the proposition that the GM or manager by definition knows more, is smarter (in the context of the job) and more capeable than i am. i almost never say such a person is "stupid" a moron, whatever.

(same goes for politics - by the way. I can't remember how many people I have scolded that agree or disagree, neither Bush or Obhama are REMOTELY "idiots)

It takes something i consider monumental before I will go beyond "I woldn't have done it that way"

I do recall many many times when people called JP an idiot (I use JP because I don't trust myself to accurately spell his last name every time) and I always had almost zero patience with that sort of approach.

All that said - Even though I know it's a given that Cito is in a better place and has more information to makes choices and decisions, I reserve the right to question whether or not personality characteristics interfere with what would otherwise be a more fact-based analysis.

Do loyalties, grudges, prejudices, ego, etc, play a part in the choices or decisions that get made? surely they do. It's also not unreasonable to suspect that certain preconcieved opinions that might not necessarily be true are in play. for instance a given manager might be utterly convinced that "protection in the lineup" is  a valid consideration, irrespective of any study which demonstrates otherwise.

So in that sense I think it's reasonable to - without resorting to calling someone stupid or moronic - point to a particular choice and say "WTF?!"

An example: Consider JP's famous "Dunn doesn't like baseball" moment. Does that prove JP is a moron, or does it indicate that some other personality trait clouded his decision making? Ego? Anger management? who knows? Maybe he'd just had some Roger's JP try to tell him how to do his job all afternoon and was totally pissed and not in a proper frame of mind to answer those calls and simply lost self control....we will likely never know.

That by no means indicates we can't rightly say "what the hell was he thinking?" or point out it was a massive blonder. But no, it's not license to say "He's an idiot" - idiots never get to that position. Even Bavasi and Dayton Moore are not idiots, no matter how incomprehensible their trades and signings are.

also, on this:

Gaston manages as if he believes that maintaining his player' personal comfort zones is more important than specific tactical issues.

I think he only does this with hitters. He seems far less concerned with the ego or comfort zone of pitchers (this too is potential a function of a "blind spot" that most ballplayers admit that hitters and pitchers have regarding each other - a blind spot that is open to just criticism)

And that brings me back around to the last time I really lost it regarding Gaston - the statements which indicated that he was trying to maintain Overbay's free agent value by playing him every day. in that case what angered me was not the specific choice to play Overbay every day but the discussed motivation.

I don't have to be taking issue with Cito's intelligence in order to take issue with his biases and (IMO) misplaced priorities

As for Wilner, on the blog and in the shows I've heard, he spends almost as much time shooting down stupid remarks against Cito as he does complaining himself. but what Wilner has NEVER done is claim Cito made the wrong move because of lack of intelligence, which is what the OP here is ostensibly supposed to be about.

Wilner questions (as do i and many others) the basic assumptions that Cito operates from which leads to certain on field maneuvers. It's also worth noting that for one diagnosed with a potential case of CDS, Wilner said when he was re-hired that Cito was "the best manager in baseball from the end of one game until the begining ofthe next" and didn't come off that until the second half of last season when he was hearing things from inside the clubhouse that undermined that reputation.

I personally would dispute the argument that being VERY frustrated with some of Cito's strategy makes one "deranged"

By your own premise, CDS is illustrated by the major symptom of questioning Cito's intelligence - something Wilner has never, to my knowledge, done (sounds, in fact, like the Wilner Derangement Syndrome common to the DJF comments posts)

As for the caps - it's emphesis. Can be bolding, can be underlining, can be caps. Is it "shouting"? Yes, much like any two guys might occasionally raise their voice when discussing something like this at the pub after the game. Mean nothing and it's not rude or an internet ettiquette blunder.

All caps ALL THE TIME so that there is no emphasis, just one big block of "pay attention to me" - THAT is rude.

But that's not what Wilner did there.

In summation - your point about Cito and questioning the intelligence of those in such roles was FAR stronger until you invoked Wilner's remarks as evidence.



JohnL - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#214233) #
The Jays won the World Series in both years, so it sounds like a riveting article

"The results" referred to the results of specific managerial decisions, not on the results of the Series.
LouisvilleJayFan - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#214234) #
Free Brad Mills!
TamRa - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#214235) #
Not a lot in the thread I'd disagree with re Cito.

I think all of us in our saner moments are aware that Cito has far more baseball knowledge than all of us combined will ever have.

Some of us are just way more hyperbolic in our rhetoric than others.

There is one more point about Wilner I'll offer though -

does he sound "arrogant" on the phone and on the blog?

Yeah, often he does.

part of that is simply delivery and it's not uncommon with radio personalities, in and out of sports (for instance, dunno about you nice Canadian folk but radio types on both the right and left politically come across as arrogant about their views as a matter of course. it's part of the job to "paint in bold colors")

Part of it, though, is that unlike Cito and JP and Gibby and whoever, all too often the callers/posters ARE morons.

and I, for one, had rather hear a moron called out on his stupidity as humored.

If someone calls up JaysTalk tonight and insists that Eveland has been exposed as a total loser and the jays need him out of the rotation and Mills called up to replace him immediately based on tonights game alone, then I would be VERY disappointed if ANY host didn't reply with "that's the stupidest thing I've heard all night"

Maybe it sounds arrogant to be the one saying "you just said a very stupid thing" but it doesn't make the remark untrue.

The thing is, though, that once you've decided  that Wilner (or anyone else) IS "arrogant" then ANY disagreement voice SOUNDs arrogant to you.

How VERY many times does a caller call up and say "I think Cito hates Ruiz" (just for an example) and Wilner replies calmly and without animosity "That's simply not true"

FAR more often than he says something to the effect of "I can't believe anyone that stupid got past the screener" or words to that effect.

But if you already think he's arrogant, then even "that's simply not true" SOUNDS condescending because you are applying your preconception to the comment.

does that mean Wilner is NOT arrogant? Oh heck no, i'm sure he is.

I'm also sure 90% or more of US are arrogant about our opinions as well. I don't see how it is anything but hypocracy to try to hold him to a standard we wouldn't hold ourselves to.

One can say "he's on the radio so he must be held to a higher standard" - but i'd counter by saying that if you had a host who was NOT arrogant about his opinions then he would be nothing but an answering machine for every numbskull who wanted to call and say something moronc and THAT would be TRULY unlistenable.

Sorry to spend so much time in a Cito thread defending Wilner.
Like I said above, if you edit that piece down and try to get it published, the one major move to make it almost perfect would be to drop the whole business about Wilner. It distracts from the otherwise VERY good point.


Mike D - Monday, April 26 2010 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#214237) #
Excellent, Magpie.  Comme d'habitude.
Alex Obal - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#214241) #
This is amazing.
Magpie - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#214242) #

I never much liked the refrain from habitual Gaston-defenders that he "out-managed Cox and LaRussa in the post-season." Managers don't manage against the other guy, they manage their own teams. It's true that LaRussa frequently out-manages himself (especially in the post-season - his love for aggressive play often backfires against good teams), but Gaston had little to do with that.

As for Cox - Gaston did take his deep and talented six-man bullpen and shove it down the Braves' throat. It was certainly the difference in the series. If Jeff Reardon had been five years younger...

Gosh, that was a silly game at the Dome tonight. I'm getting home now.

China fan - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 05:05 AM EDT (#214249) #

As everyone else has pointed out, Magpie's article is quite brilliant, and I'm very glad that he is destroying some of the pernicious myths about managers, especially the Jays manager.   It will immensely improve the discourse on this site in the future.

I have one quibble -- the following sentence:  "I'm always going to be suspicious when a 66 year old black man is universally called by a nickname rather than his surname."    I wish Magpie had thought twice about this sentence.  I strongly disagree with the implication that subtle racism is leading us to call the manager "Cito" rather than "Gaston."  I think all of us are routinely using nicknames and abbreviations all the time, and it has nothing to do with racism.  Personally speaking, I write "Cito" because it is 4 characters, not 6 characters like the surname.  I write "JP" and "AA" for similar reasons, and often write "EE" for the 3rd baseman.  It's a time-saving device, not a subtle comment on the person and his skin color. 

Now, was there any tinge of racism in the refusal of every MLB club to offer a manager's job to Cito Gaston for more than a decade after he left the Jays?  This, at least, could be an arguable case.  But the use of nicknames for baseball personalities is not, I think, adequate evidence for anything.

Magpie - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 06:46 AM EDT (#214251) #

That's fair enough, especially with regard to the two GMs.

I hope it's understood that while the practise automatically makes me suspicious, simply because I worry about this stuff, upon sober consideration I wouldn't want to actually accuse anyone of anything!

Magpie - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 06:49 AM EDT (#214252) #
I can get a little anal about this stuff, insisting on typing out names like Ricciardi and Rzepczynski, and Schoeneweis. I may just be making sure I know to spell them....
Dave Till - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 07:13 AM EDT (#214254) #
I think Cito II deserves significant credit for Adam Lind's success. John Gibbons basically gave up on him; Cito put him in the lineup, told him he had an everyday job, and the rest is history. That alone makes his second go-round worth it.

Cito might also deserve credit for putting Scutaro at short, though that might have been the GM's decision - either way, the Jays got draft picks for a player they picked up from the discard pile.

I said this in another thread about Cito, but I will repeat it here: I have never understood why no other team gave Cito a shot at managing. He's won two World Series, for chrissake! Jimy Williams, who is nowhere near as good a manager as Cito, was given three opportunities to manage.

wdc - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 07:25 AM EDT (#214255) #
Like others, I am deeply appreciative to you, Magpie, for this posting.  And my kudos go as well to those of you who have responded.  It is one of the best discussions I have seen on the blog for a long time and one that we needed. The only point that I would add about managing comes from my own limited experience coaching basketball.  I say limited because I coached girls my daughter's age for about 10 years, first in a house league and then at the middle school level.  I got better over time, developed very good practice routines, figured out how to motivate girls with different personalities, and got better at game tactics. What would often surprise me from one year to the next is how much these coaching things were just a preparation.  When it came down to winning games, what was most important was having those girls with a drive to win, a motivation to force their will against the opposition, a desire to fight their way to the hoop no matter what.  I think that every game is the same in a way.  Coaches, managers or whatever can do their best but having competent players with that drive to win, to succeed, to focus on what is needed for victory -- those things make coaches or managers look either like geniuses or chumps. Robbie Alomar and Tony Fernandez were those kinds of players, so were Dave Stieb and, of course, Doc.

I respect Cito Gaston, enjoy trying to figure out his thinking, and am sometimes confused.  Magpie helped put much of my thinking to words and I agree with the idea of it becoming an op-ed somewhere so more fans can benefit from his thoughts.

China fan - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#214258) #
Magpie, my spelling would greatly improve if I followed your excellent example!   I'm still working on Anthopoulos (and had to look it up again now).....   As for Zep, his name might just be an insurmountable challenge, although I've tried it a few times....
JohnL - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 09:05 AM EDT (#214260) #
I never much liked the refrain from habitual Gaston-defenders that he "out-managed Cox and LaRussa in the post-season."

I didn't mean to imply (and neither did that old article as I recall) that Cito out-managed the others. I just found that post interesting in the context of then-and-now criticisms of Gaston that he wasn't capable of (or willing to) make appropriate in-game strategic moves. In those games where it was critical to pull out the stops, and up against two of the biggest (not necessarily best) "strategy" guys, Cito's moves were consistently more successful. For what that's worth.


Magpie - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#214265) #

I'm still working on Anthopoulos

Me too! I like speaking the names as they're spelled ("SHOW-NA-WICE") until I master the spelling, and only then do I start pronouncing them properly. For the moment, I'm still saying AN-THO-POO-LOS, and referring to him as "the GM" until I'm sure of my footing...

lexomatic - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#214288) #
Nothing bugs me more about the criticism of Cito than the criticism that he's too stupid or ignorant to understand the tactical implications of his decisions. I have no problem with people disagreeing with his decisions, but the assumption that Cito is too dumb to realize the intricacies of L/R splits is just silly.


This seems to be the major reaction to criticism of Cito's decision making, and while I admittedly haven't been reading the site too much lately (not enough time) i haven't really come across that so much. For me it was always clearly about decision making and choice, and just most often being the wrong choices.
CIto definitely has strengths as a manager, with a talented and self-motivated team he is probably the best person for the job. I don't care too much what he does this year as long as he doesn't set future contributors back in their development.
I do agree with many that even if this is a "throw-away" year, you still have to play to win. If it becomes a choice of leaving Snider in to face a tough lefty with a game on the line or pinch hitting for Ruiz, then for the sake of Snider's development you hope he gets left-in. if it's just a question of a pinch-hitter you go for the win. I think it sends the wrong message to the players and to the fans. You want your players to be motivated to try even when odds are against them.  It's the kind of attitude that can put a team over the edge. It's also the common criticism of teams getting used to losing.

As for the situation of Ruiz pinch-hitting for Mcdonald, I'm sure JMac realizes that Ruiz is a better hitter, as a professional, he shouldn't be upset at those types of decisions, realizing it is part of the strategy of the game.Wins heal many wounds, including being taken out of a game. If you're not going to be using 7 pitchers, it makes sense to have more position players to allow you to make a move like that without having to play Overbay or Ruiz at 2b. I'm not sure how much of that (roster construction) is Cito or AA.
Also, didn't Pat Borders get flipped around the infield one game  depending on the handedness of the batter and likeliness to hit to right or left sides... or was that a Jimy Williams move? That would disprove that he won't do it (though I appreciate the reasons to avoid that at all costs.)
92-93 - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#214295) #

I think Cito II deserves significant credit for Adam Lind's success. John Gibbons basically gave up on him; Cito put him in the lineup, told him he had an everyday job, and the rest is history. That alone makes his second go-round worth it.

People here love saying that we never know close to the whole story, so I don't get the assumption that Gibbons banished Lind. All of a sudden a rookie manager who owes his career to his GM is calling the shots, sending down players after a fruitless week? That's quite a bit of power Gibbons must have had over the 25 man roster. I don't think it was Gibbons' decision to cut Frank Thomas, and I don't think it was his decision to give up on Lind after a week - JP could have just as easily decided there was no point in wasting his service time and that perhaps he had called him up too quickly. Once Gibbons was fired and Gaston was hired it became clear, to me at least, that JP had lost a lot of clout in the organization and that his power was slowly being removed, capped by the Beeston return.

Dewey - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#214303) #
I like speaking the names as they're spelled ("SHOW-NA-WICE") until I master the spelling, and only then do I start pronouncing them properly. For the moment, I'm still saying AN-THO-POO-LOS, and referring to him as "the GM" until I'm sure of my footing...

This reminds me of Katie Couric, I think it was, saying that the way she remembered the pronunciation of the Iranian President’s name was by saying,  “I’m a dinner-jacket”.   Ahmadinejad.   Works.
Matthew E - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#214304) #

I also don't like calling public figures by their first names or nicknames. Who am I trying to kid? I don't know them; they don't know me; I don't even know what we'd have to say to each other if we met. So it's Ricciardi and Gaston and Anthopoulos.

Gaston's treatment of Ruiz kind of reminds me of how he used Randy Knorr. I recall an interview with him from... I dunno, back then sometime... when someone asked Gaston how Knorr looked, and he said something like, "If he played regularly he'd probably hit .240 with 15 or 20 home runs." And I shouted at the radio, "Then why don't you let him do that?!" But no. Instead, Pat Borders was the regular, and that year he hit (something like) .250 with 8 home runs.

I'm not saying Gaston is wrong for playing Overbay and Borders over Ruiz and Knorr. I think it's part of the package of how he does things, and I think it's a necessary part. But there's a cost to it, and I'm not convinced that it's worth the cost. Maybe it is. But I'm not convinced.

martinthegreat - Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#214318) #
Agreed with China fan. People are too sensitive about this nickname stuff. So we can give nicknames to white people and not black people? I dunno. If someone is racist you can tell with better ways than that.

But overall, good article. I also agreed that you could probably send this in the the newspapers and get it published. Very well written. Maybe shorten it a bit for the unwashed masses.
Magpie - Wednesday, April 28 2010 @ 01:51 AM EDT (#214334) #

So we can give nicknames to white people and not black people?

No, not exactly - after all, Gaston actually answers to "Cito." That's what people call him, myself included on the very rare occasions I've had to say hello to him. And when I spoke to the former GM, which happened more often, I called him "J.P." I'd just rather not write about them in that fashion.

There is, however, a kind of process of infantilization that has long gone on with athletes of colour, African-American and Latin-American. I've been reading a great deal about the 1951 season recently, which happened to be Willie Mays' rookie season, and all the stuff I've seen about this "natural" talent, this boy born to play ball.... it makes you very wary indeed. Willie Mays was indeed blessed with splendid natural talents and if anyone was born to play ball it might have been him - but he was also one of the smartest players ever to have stepped on the diamond. So was Roberto Alomar.

Magpie - Wednesday, April 28 2010 @ 01:53 AM EDT (#214335) #
Gaston and Randy Knorr - he did indeed think the.kid could hit. But he absolutely hated they way he caught.  It's the one position on the diamond where Gaston has consistently chosen the better defensive player. From Borders over Myers (and then Knorr) all the way down to Barajas over Zaun.
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