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The Jays took another step towards Grapefruit League supremacy with a 9-1 pounding of the Yankees Saturday afternoon in Tampa.   Even better, the loss went to the starter who once pitched for Toronto.  Click here for the appropriate reaction.



Shaun Marcum totally dominated the Bronx Bombers to get the victory in his spring training debut.  Okay, it was for only two innings but he only gave up a walk while striking out a pair of batters.  Adam Lind and J.P. Arencibia went deep to salt the game away for the good guys.  Lind belted a three-run crank to right field off a struggling Jonathan Albaladejo during a five-run fifth inning and Arencibia cracked Andrew Brackman for his second dinger of spring training in the seventh inning.

The Jays were 7-for-17 with runners in scoring position.  Vernon Wells led the hit parade by going 3-for-3 while Lind and Jose Bautista contributed two hits apiece in the Jays 18 hit attack.  Aaron Hill had an RBI single and added a walk to bring his bases on balls total to five.  Lyle Overbay, Randy Ruiz, Travis Snider, Jose Molina, Jeremy Reed, Alex Gonzalez, Jesus Merchan, Brian Dopirak, Mike McCoy, and George Poulis (just kidding!  I'm glad you're paying attention!) also contributed to the hit total.

Rule 5 draft pick Zech Zinicola allowed the only Yankees run on a hit and a walk.  Unfortunately, Zinicola accidentally plunked catcher Francisco Cervelli in the head.  He left with a concussion and an imprint of the baseball on his noggin.  Zinicola and former Giant Merkin Valdez earned their first spring training holds as Valdez allowed just a walk and struck out a batter in his lone inning of work.  Steven Register, wearing Bill and Ted's favourite number, scattered two hits and a walk over two scoreless frames.  Robert Ray was hoping to go two innings as well but only got through one.  After a scoreless seventh, Ray loaded up the bases in the eighth for Willie Collazo and he escaped the bases-loaded jam with an infield pop up and a double play ball.  The lefty allowed just one hit over two shutout innings to wrap things up for the fighting Jays. 

Defensively, the Jays turned three double plays to offset throwing errors by Hill and McCoy.  All in all, a pretty frigging good effort to buoy the hopes of Blue Jays Nation during March Madness.  Right now, Toronto is tied with Tampa Bay atop the AL East standings with a 3-1 pre-season record.  Only Cleveland remains perfect at 2-0 in the junior circuit.  This might be the closest we get to a pennant race this season so let's enjoy it while it lasts.

============

The cliche "You can't tell the players without a program!" has to apply for the 2010 Jays when it comes to uniform numbers.  Here are your changes.....

  • Randy Ruiz was #3 last season but Alex Gonzalez 2.0 is now wearing that digit.   Ruiz now wears Chad Mottola's 21. 
  • Edwin Encarnacion has eschewed (how's that for a word!) #7 for Alex Rios' & Kevin Millar's #15.  Outfielder Jeremy Reed now has lucky number 7.   
  • Jose Bautista wore #23 in 2009 but has switched to #19.  Righty Brandon Morrow is now #23.
  • Reliever Josh Roenicke almost chopped his former number 33 in half.  He's now wearing #17

Other notable changes......

  • Catcher Jose Molina takes over Russ Adams' #8
  • Pitching coach Rick Langford has Brandon League's #22.
  • First base coach Omar Malave has B.J. Ryan's old #52.

============

As great as it was to watch yesterday's game on MLB TV, it was tough having to endure the Yankees feed.  They butchered pronunciations such as Brian Dopirak and Brad Emaus and didn't bother replaying J.P. Arencibia's home run because the sideline reporter was interviewing Yankees GM Brian Cashman.  It's a good thing I was watching at the time or I would have missed it.

============

In other major league headlines.....

*  Twins closer Joe Nathan left yesterday's game with a sore elbow.

John Lackey's Red Sox debut was not lacking but Eric Gagne's return to the Dodgers was.

Jays Spank Yanks | 65 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Spifficus - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 12:23 PM EST (#212225) #

It was so good to watch Marcum pitch - it looks like his location was its usual sharpness. It felt like Molina never had to move his glove.

LouisvilleJayFan - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 01:03 PM EST (#212227) #
Brad Mills game action, please???
westcoast dude - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 01:07 PM EST (#212228) #
Did Hirsh intentionally hit Merchan in the ninth? Yankees are doomed: you hit Jesus you gonna pay.
85bluejay - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 03:03 PM EST (#212231) #

Angel Guzman hurt in Cubs camp - will be looking for bullpen help - Come on AA, get Hendry to say the magic words

Hak-Ju Lee

andrewkw - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 07:51 PM EST (#212237) #
Anyone know where I can find the minor league spring training schedule?  I've never made it to minor league camp but might check it out this year.



greenfrog - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 08:15 PM EST (#212238) #
BA has an article on the best tools among their top 100 prospects. Drabek's curveball ranks at or near the top (the article is subscriber-only; the following is a very brief excerpt):

"Determining which pitcher throws the meanest curveball was another close call. Kyle Drabek (Blue Jays) consistently throws a hard bender with tight spin and locates it in the strike zone. Drabek and Strasburg both have power curves that rate as 70 pitches, but Drabek does a better job of staying on top of his while Strasburg's sometimes morphs into more of a slurve."
greenfrog - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 08:21 PM EST (#212239) #
On the down side, Jim Callis of BA thinks that the college talent available in 2011 is "much deeper" than that available this year. Tough luck for AA, who has a bevy of draft picks in 2010. Of course, if the Jays finish with 60-75 wins this year, they'll have at least one high pick in 2011.
Moe - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 09:40 PM EST (#212240) #
On the down side, Jim Callis of BA thinks that the college talent available in 2011 is "much deeper" than that available this year. Tough luck for AA, who has a bevy of draft picks in 2010. Of course, if the Jays finish with 60-75 wins this year, they'll have at least one high pick in 2011.

And who says that the Jays will sign all their picks this year. I remember an interview (with AA?) in which it sounded that not signing and waiting for the comp will happen again.


Gerry - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 10:07 PM EST (#212241) #

Anyone know where I can find the minor league spring training schedule?  I've never made it to minor league camp but might check it out this year.

The schedule hasn't been released but I believe minor league games start March 20th and either the AAA and AA teams are at home or the A team or teams are at home.  So there is always a game or two on.

Gerry - Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 11:26 PM EST (#212242) #

Bob Elliott has a detailed story about the Jays and scouting.  Yeah I know, big surprise.

Back in November, 2003 — after allowing their ranks to deplete from 105 in 1997, to 61 in 2002 and finally 32 — the Jays decided to hire nine new scouts.  “They were, what is known in the industry as, scout-school hires — young guys who management could teach and control,” said a scout from another organization.  These nine new hires had an average 4.2 years of scouting experience, including Tom Burns who had 13 years with the Angels.

The 14 new hires Minasian has made on the pro side average 12 years of scouting experience — led by Wayne Morgan in his 40th year and Rick Down who is heading into his 41st spring.   Minasian sifted through 85 applications (“Eighty-five with qualified backgrounds,” he noted), concentrating on scouts with at least 10 years experience.

Gerry - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:53 AM EST (#212244) #

Here are two more notable stories:

Ken Fidlin discusses who has impressed so far in camp.  JP Arencibia; Chad Jenkins; Mike McCoy; Jose Molina; Dustin McGowan and Danny Farquhar are Ken's picks.

John Lott points out a problem for the Jays, getting enough innings for all the pitching candidates.  With so many starting pitching candidates the Jays don't have enough innings to give them all a good look.  There are some B games scheduled but minor league games don't start until next week.  As the starting pitchers move up to 4 and 5 innings each the Jays won't be able to look at them all so they will be forced into making early decisions on some guys.

Ryan Day - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 01:33 PM EST (#212246) #
Arencibia just hit his third home run of the spring. Smacking fastballs early in spring training doesn't mean a whole lot, but it's nice to see him swinging the bat so well. He had a pretty lousy year in 2009, but I'm optimistic about a solid bounceback.
subculture - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 02:32 PM EST (#212247) #

Agreed, would be great to see JP forcing his way onto the big team... I see the dilemna though as on a young pitching staff, having guys like Molina and Buck should theoretically help the development of several pitchers... but at the same time, they don't want to hold JP back if he's really ready for the bigs.  It's been a long time since we had a young catcher with promise to watch daily.

The Jays will surprise this year if JP, Snider, Ruiz, and Wallace develop quickly into average+ bats.  I'm thinking that 3 of the 4 have a good shot to be at least league average this year, and better in 2011.

Pitching wise, who knows maybe this year we get lucky and don't have major injuries to our top guys?  Imagine McGowan, Marcum, Morrow, Romero + Rep/Litsch/? all pitching injury free and consistent with their last healthy year?  Gregg/Downs/Frasor/Accardo a solid 6/7/8/9 inning lockdown combo!  I'll be living the dream!

Thomas - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 04:07 PM EST (#212248) #
Bob Elliott has a detailed story about the Jays and scouting.  Yeah I know, big surprise.

There are some interesting tidbits in the Elliot article, such as the fact the Jays hired the scout from Boston who signed Jon Lester and the scout from KC who signed Greinke and Billy Butler.

However, there's also a bit of depressing news in the article. Toronto's new scout for central California is the brother of Oakland A's shortstop Bobby Crosby. The depressing part, at least if you don't want to feel old, is that Blake Crosby is Bobby's younger brother.
Mike Green - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 04:41 PM EST (#212249) #
Having surged past denial, anger and bargaining, I am well into the acceptance stage of aging.  Since Julio Franco retired, I am older than any active player, and Rick Porcello was born after my son.  So it goes.

Today, it looks like Houston fielded their A club and the Jays fielded their B club with the exception of Overbay.  There sure is a big difference between the AL East and the NL Central.

John Northey - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 04:43 PM EST (#212250) #
Want depressing just use the 'year born' feature at B-R.
Mine...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1969-births.shtml

Just 8 guys left who were born the year I was. Lots of relievers - Rivera/Percival/Rhodes/Weathers/Ken Takahashi. One manager in Manny Acta. Plus Ken Griffey Jr, Brad Ausmus, and So Taguchi.

My year of birth isn't too bad for HOF'ers with Griffey and Rivera. No one else with a real shot, but quite the pair.

To make me feel old some guys also born that year who are long retired...
Delino DeShields, Juan Gonzalez, Bret Boone, Todd Hundley, Travis Fryman and Alex Fernandez (the only 100 game winner).
John Northey - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 04:44 PM EST (#212251) #
An FYI: 1989 has a player.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1989-births.shtml

None listed for 1990 and beyond...yet.
andrewkw - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 05:37 PM EST (#212253) #
A couple more questions about minor league spring training.

Can you only go and watch games, or can you watch simulated games, and workouts ect?  It's my understanding all the games start at 1 which would be the same time as the jays games and everyday I'm there I have a game. 

I am hoping to catch Doc next friday.  He's pitching tonight so if they keep him pitching every 5th day I'll get the chance to cheer him on in nearby clearwater. 

Thomas - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 07:13 PM EST (#212254) #
Want depressing just use the 'year born' feature at B-R.

I don't find players younger than me as depressing. The first one maybe, but after that you accept that there are always going to be talented athletes forcing their way on to a major league team. You can't stop the Justin Uptons, Travis Sniders and Rick Porcellos.

The image of major league GMs and scouts used to conjure up thoughts of guys in their 40s and 50s. Now, it's become fast rising talents like Epstein, Josh Byrnes, Jon Daniels and Anthopoulos. But, they were all in their very late twenties when appointed. Now scouts are being hired who aren't even in their mid-twenties yet. That's what I find depressing.
CeeBee - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 07:25 PM EST (#212255) #

"Want depressing just use the 'year born' feature at B-R.
Mine...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1969-births.shtml"

Try 1951 for depressing ;)  Been along time since anyone from that year played in the majors.

MatO - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 08:16 PM EST (#212256) #
I thought it was so cool that I was almost exactly a year older than Bell (if you believe he was born in 1959), Moseby and Barfield.  Now, not so much.
Nick Holmes - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:10 PM EST (#212257) #
Hak-Ju Lee?


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/03/cubs-inquire-on-jason-frasor.html#disqus_thread

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=lee---001hak

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/hak-ju-lee-leads-impressive-wave-of-talent/

Nick Holmes - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:26 PM EST (#212258) #
Cubs signed him for 1.5 million. If the Jays made this trade I bet money would be involved.
Frasor gets 2.65 million, according to Cot's, & this is his last year, & he's a Chicago native.

http://chicagocubsonline.com/archives/2008/05/cubs_lee_hakju.php

...of course it could all just be talk in the echo chamber.
christaylor - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:32 PM EST (#212259) #
Mine:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1976-births.shtml

Which is why I've always thought Lilly and Vazquez are/were under-rated, I guess.
Nick Holmes - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:35 PM EST (#212260) #
I've got Alomar, Sheffield, & Eric Wedge.
christaylor - Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:39 PM EST (#212261) #
"Now, it's become fast rising talents like Epstein, Josh Byrnes, Jon Daniels and Anthopoulos. But, they were all in their very late twenties when appointed.

AA's story sounds like a hard road to travel, I wouldn't trade my life up to this point and we're not far off in age... despite having GM envy since the days of Gillick assembling the 1989 squad.

"Now scouts are being hired who aren't even in their mid-twenties yet. That's what I find depressing."

I think this is a good strategy not depressing at all -- watching and evaluating talent as it plays out on the field is one thing, quite another to have scouts that can talk to the players as well and understand their life situation/concerns/interests.
Mike Green - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 09:27 AM EST (#212262) #
Green's songs of the spring, 2010:

Halladay
All my troubles seemed so far away
now it looks like they're here to stay
oh I believe in Halladay
...
why he had to go
I don't know
he didn't say
I said something wrong
now I long
for Halladay


Down on the corner
not yet on the street
Edwin and the rich boys are playin'
makin' errors, watch your feet


He hangs his arm and cries on my shirt
he must be hurt very badly
....
Cecil Cecil brett Cecil Cecil


Molina (sax solo)


Gerry - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 09:33 AM EST (#212263) #

Joe Nathan needs Tommy John surgery, that is a big blow to the Twins.  I wonder if his elbow was hurting him at the end of last season when he blew up in the playoffs?

The Twins might now join the Cubs in looking for a replacement in the pen.  The Jays do have Jason Frasor available, a bidding war would be nice.

And I think Mike Green, you badly need baseball games to start for real, it looks like you have too much time on your hands.  The song works well though.

John Northey - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 12:24 PM EST (#212264) #
If the Cubs are crazy enough to trade a top prospect for Frasor I say go for it. The Jays seem to be relievers-r-us lately and removing one or two for some quality hitting prospects sounds like a good use of assets.

To me Downs, Frasor, Accardo, and anyone else in the pen is 100% trade bait for a top 5 prospect from any other organization, top 10 from most.
vw_fan17 - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 01:10 PM EST (#212265) #
Yeah, it's right at the cutoff for me: 1971. 20 players were active in 2009.

Some interesting (Jays-related) names (active and non):
Willie Canate, he who shall not be named, Chris Gomez born on my birthday, Gregg Zaun, Kevin Millar, Miguel Batista, Raul Mondesi, etc..

Notables (active and non):
-Pudge
-Pedro
-Jose Contreras
-Jorge Posada
-Billy Wagner
-Brian Giles
-Jason Giambi
-Rey Ordonez

Sounds like 2 good batteries, some relief and some infield help..

Gerry - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 01:57 PM EST (#212266) #

Zach Stewart and Chad Jenkins have been sent to minor league camp.

John Lott had a feature on Jenkins today.

John Northey - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 02:35 PM EST (#212267) #
Thinking about this age thing. 32 is supposed to be the cut off for careers - most players will drop fast at that age and beyond. Age 32 was hit in 2009 by guys born in 1977 (mainly - baseball age gets a bit messy). So who is there that is noteworthy?

Andruw Jones, Carlos Beltran, Eric Chavez, Kosuke Fukudome, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt, Mark Mulder, A.J. Burnett are some quick notables. Mix in Kerry Wood, Justin Duchscherer, Bronson Arroyo.

Guys whose career is pretty much over...
Brad Wilkerson, Jay Gibbons, D'Angelo Jimenez

Interesting eh? A group that it is not wise to invest in. Especially when it comes to hitters traditionally.
Gerry - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 02:57 PM EST (#212268) #

Jordan Bastian reports on Dustin McGowan's simulated game today.  McGowan pitched well but is slated for another simulated game on Sunday before possibly seeing game action next week.

"He just looked very, very good," Anthopoulos said. "The big test now is how does he feel the following day and the day after that. Does the soreness continue to go away? It's one of those things that, when he does throw, the stuff looks sharp, everything looks good. It'll just be a question of how he bounces back."

The last thing Anthopoulos wants to do is rush anything with McGowan.

"We're going to be very conservative with him. We really are," Anthopoulos said. "We're not going to try to accelerate anything at all. We'll be more conservative than anything."

 

greenfrog - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 03:35 PM EST (#212271) #
Great news about McGowan. I think he has the potential for a Chris Carpenter-type comeback, if he can return to the rotation in good health with his stuff mostly intact.
Maldoff - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 05:13 PM EST (#212276) #
Please please please put McGowan in the bullpen as a closer. He has shown his body can't hold up to a starter's workload, and he would be dynamite in the pen!
stevieboy22 - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 08:54 PM EST (#212279) #

Please please please put McGowan in the bullpen as a closer. He has shown his body can't hold up to a starter's workload, and he would be dynamite in the pen!

I dont get this way of thinking.

First off, whose to say that doesn't increase his chances of injury.

Second off, whose to say he would be effective as a reliever.

I'm not going to get excited about McGowan until I see some articles about where his velocity is at. Striking out the likes of Kenny Wilson, who can't hit low A hitting, doesn't excite me.

 

christaylor - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 09:23 PM EST (#212280) #
"I'm not going to get excited about McGowan until I see some articles about where his velocity is at."

Wilner has a good comment about McGowan's velocity: "The Jays didn’t have a radar gun on McGowan, doctor’s orders and all, so all of us assembled reporters decided that McGowan’s fastball was sitting somewhere between 87 and 103 miles an hour."

That being said, what would it really say that McGowan was throwing 90 versus 93? Not a whole lot. If he's to be a starter there's a lot more to pitching effectively than FB velocity -- with his injury history, I'd be concerned about the break on his slider, for one... AA says his stuff looked good, Wilner says he looked good. Both people who know more about baseball than a radar gun. I'm excited for him -- I thought he was done and continue to think he'll have a set back, but I'm rooting for him to come back and be the pitcher he was against the Rockies at the end of June 2007.
stevieboy22 - Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 11:12 PM EST (#212281) #

My point is just simply that McGowan was never exactly a finess pitcher, so he needs his velocity to be  effecitve. He works off his fastball,which generally sat in the mid 90s... If he sees his average fastball drop 5 miles an hour, then he`s no where near being the pitcher he was before.... If scouts looking at a guy any saying ``he looks good`` was enough to go on, then scouts wouldn`t be married to their guns.... And I love Wilner, but I have heard him make statements about pitchers like when he claimed Toma Ohka was a 4 on most major league teams 2 weeks into the 2007 season, that make me take his assessment of pitchers with a major grain of salt....

I hope McGowan turns out to be the same old guy, but I will reserve excitement until he I know he is or can be back to full strength..

zeppelinkm - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 02:55 AM EST (#212282) #

While watching Sportscentre right now d'Arnaud just had a really great quote answering about being traded for Roy Halladay, I'll do my best: "Being traded for Roy Halladay... I'm going to work my butt off. I want to show that Alex Anthopoulos knew what he was doing and have a long successful career."

greenfrog - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 08:48 AM EST (#212284) #
Wilner is a real asset to the Toronto sports media scene, and he has a lot of heart and soul, but I don't put a lot of stock in his player assessments or playoff predictions. He's very good at sounding authoritative, but he often seems to miss the mark (the classic example being his refusal, even well into the 2008 season, to acknowledge that the Rays were a vastly improved team and organization).
85bluejay - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 09:53 AM EST (#212285) #

Wilner is a real asset to the Toronto sports media scene.

Actually, I find Wilner to be the J.P. Riccardi of the Toronto sports scene - an arrogant blowhard who is

condesending to callers/posters and is never wrong - the guy is still defending his buddy JP every time 

he gets a chance. My nightmare is his aspiration to be part of the Jays play by play radio team.

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 10:58 AM EST (#212288) #

 ...even well into the 2008 season, to acknowledge that the Rays were a vastly improved team and organization).

Really?   I always though the Rays were a good team that got very lucky, so many career years.   From worst, to first and the Series, to mediocre, you were saying?

stevieboy22 - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 11:15 AM EST (#212289) #

Actually, I find Wilner to be the J.P. Riccardi of the Toronto sports scene - an arrogant blowhard who is condesending to callers/posters and is never wrong

He often came across as a JP Riccardi supporter for correcting fans who would make stuff up because they had their preconcevied notions about Riccardi. Do you know how many times I heard someone call in the fan last summer and talk about how BJ Ryan was throwing 98 miles an hour before his surgery? At least 3 times.  It seemed to be some urban legend in radioland that perpetuated from hosts not correcting callers. I will take a host who is honest and isn't afraid to speak their mind, then someone with poor critical thinking skills who is encourages callers who say things like, "I have played ball for 20 years" or like to make arguments about things that can't be proven like intangibles. Wilner gives me something to look forward to after Jays games and although he sometimes can be a bit of cheerleader, I will take him over 90 percent of the hosts on the fan. 

 

Timbuck2 - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 11:21 AM EST (#212290) #
Just a few thoughts on a couple of  the Blue Jays right now:

Dustin McGowan:  I'm guardedly optimistic about him.  I have a good feeling that he can perform this year but (like Carpenter) he may just be destined for injuries in the future...

Brian Dopirak:  After reading Bastian's article I really believe that he should be going north with the club instead of Ruiz and I felt he should have been called up last year instead of him.  He's really transformed himself since joining the organization and if he's going to be ever be a major league ball player his time is NOW.  I love Ruiz too but his time has unfortunately passed (How many more years are left in his 32 yr old body?) and Brian's power potential is so much greater.  When he was drafted he was scouted as having the most raw power potential in his draft class - and his class included Prince Fielder.

greenfrog - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 12:20 PM EST (#212291) #
'Really? I always though the Rays were a good team that got very lucky, so many career years. From worst, to first and the Series, to mediocre, you were saying?'

The Rays were just ranked #1 in Baseball Prospectus's recent organizational rankings:

"Why They Are Here: They're not just the best; they're at the top by a stunningly wide margin with not only seven Top 101 prospects, but also five of those sitting among the first 42 names. That's an insane amount of potential star power for what is already the most talented young team in the big leagues. The Rays are definitely here to stay.

Where They Will Be Next Year: It should still be in the upper half, but somewhere between two and four of their Top 101 prospects could lose eligibility this year, and most of their top players are at the upper levels, with the younger prospects lacking the potential to match the upper class."

If that's your definition of a mediocre organization, then I definitely agree that the Rays are thoroughly mediocre!
John Northey - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 03:20 PM EST (#212292) #
I think by mediocre he was talking about just the ML team, not the minors plus majors.

However, the Rays do make me think a lot of the mid-80's Jays with the tons of young talent, more on the way (according to experts), and coming from last forever to fighting it out. A drop off after a big gain (see 1986 after 99 wins in '85 although the Jays did have 2 very good years pre-85 with 89 wins each) but likely to regain a chunk of that this year.

The big question is ownership. Will they commit the money to keep the Rays up there now, or will they cheap out? Given their owner was talking about cutting payroll by about $20 million for 2011 I wouldn't hold out much hope long term. For 2010 they have lots of hope, if their new kids are for real then 2011-2014 could also be very good. However, as their high draft picks filter out and regulars hit arbitration/free agency they should start dropping, eventually moving back to the long term last place status to rebuild.

Of course, it would help them a lot if the fans came out (haven't hit 1.9 million since their first season, the Jays did that in 1983 when they first cracked 500 and moved out of last place and been under it just 3 times since with 2009 having more come to Rogers than came to Tropicana).
92-93 - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 03:35 PM EST (#212293) #
"I will take a host who is honest and isn't afraid to speak their mind, then someone with poor critical thinking skills who is encourages callers who say things like, "I have played ball for 20 years" or like to make arguments about things that can't be proven like intangibles."

There are ways to host a post-game show without coming across as a complete, insufferable *****, while at the same time correcting misinformed people. Andy Frost does it 82 times a year. Wilner will almost NEVER agree with a caller, even if his point is mostly valid - he'll find the one thing he may have said wrong and use it as a launching point for his answer, explaining why the caller's line of thinking is inherently wrong. I'm reminded of early 2009, when a caller asked about a prospect (perhaps Arencibia) and Wilner went nuts about how it's the first week of baseball, and how is one already so concerned with the future and the farm system. The fact that he thinks he's the authoritative opinion on baseball in Toronto shines through each night, and couldn't be further from the truth. The best is when he continually harps on something because he can't imagine any scenario in which he'd be wrong, like how he's been convinced for years that Lyle Overbay should be leading off - apparently Lyle's own thoughts on the matter mean nothing.
greenfrog - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 05:36 PM EST (#212295) #
"I think by mediocre he was talking about just the ML team, not the minors plus majors."

I think if you're talking about a team's trajectory, and whether they got lucky in a particular year (in this case, 2008), you have to look at the organization as a whole. It's a bit tenuous to cite the team's win totals in '08 and '09 (97 and 84 wins, respectively) and argue that the Rays therefore must have been a flash in the pan. Ironically, Wilner used a similar kind of reasoning throughout much of the 2008 season to justify his position that the team *couldn't* be as good as its W-L record, and *had* to fall back, because it had been so bad for so long prior to '08. In the end, of course, the Rays finished in first place.

On the other hand, I agree that the team's status as a contender in future years will depend on ownership's willingness to invest more in the team. But it's absurd to describe the Rays as a "mediocre" club. The team is currently in fantastic shape. It just depends on whether the team wants to support a great farm system with some longer-term contracts and free agents (like Boston, for example) or keep payroll low by purging young talent that starts to get expensive (like Florida).
Gerry - Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 08:13 PM EST (#212296) #

Kyle Drabek pitched against his old team today.  Jordan Bastian covers it from the Jays perspective.

I told him that I was pitching against them," he said. "He just told me, 'It's just another team. He goes, 'Don't get too excited. Just go out there and pitch.' He was like, 'Don't try and over-do anything.' So that's what I went out and tried to do."

But was it just another team?

"Definitely not," Drabek said with a laugh.

Anthony DiComo covers it from the Phillies side.

It was definitely neat," Drabek said. "Cole's a great guy, so it was definitely fun to pitch against him."

And the Phillies may remember it, too.

"I look at him and I see a tremendous competitor," Manuel said. "But also I see good stuff. I see a lot of talent."

Since the trade, Drabek has been taking more and more advice from his father, Doug, on how to act and react in his new setting. His father told him to view Wednesday as just another game.

jamesq - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 12:10 AM EST (#212297) #
Actually, I find Wilner to be the J.P. Riccardi of the Toronto sports scene - an arrogant blowhard who is condesending to callers/posters and is never wrong.

Wilner seemed to be an apologist for Riccciardi throughout his tenure in Toronto ( "Wednesday's with JP"  may have been a contributing factor for the behaviour ) and  he is often condescending to jay fans; but the man is a fan, somewhat knowledgable and satisfies my bb fix and  talks ball most days.  I  disagree with him often and shout at my radio at times, but he is  family, like an annoying cousin or uncle, who in the end you tolerate and even quietly appreciate despite the annoying traits, cause in the end it's the focus on the familia of baseball that matters. 
Timbuck2 - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 12:45 AM EST (#212298) #
Wilner will almost NEVER agree with a caller, even if his point is mostly valid - he'll find the one thing he may have said wrong and use it as a launching point for his answer, explaining why the caller's line of thinking is inherently wrong.

Funny you should put it that way, 92-93.  I think this statement describes a large portion of the discussions on this site.

Myself I like Wilner.  He's well informed, seems passionate about the Blue Jays, and has a large amount of patience to correct so many peoples misconceptions regarding anything happening in Jayville.   I also happen to agree with 75% of what he says and respect his opinion even when it differs from my own.  If he has any fault it's his affinity for picking callers (usually eager but un-knowledgeable fans) with questions that he disagrees with which makes good "on air" sense as an argument is far more interesting to listen to than "oh yea, I agree totally.  Next caller"
Paul D - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 09:58 AM EST (#212300) #

Fangraphs names their top 50 AL prospects.  Drabek, Wallace, Stewart and Arrencibia make the list from the Jays.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-top-50-american-league-prospects

christaylor - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 11:53 AM EST (#212301) #
Two odd things about this list: Wallace at #16 (ahead of Drabek) and Taylor at #27.

Drabek ought to be ahead of Wallace (the list has 3B as a possibility still) and Taylor and Wallace out to be a wash (a few commenters say they ought to be flipped).
whiterasta80 - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 01:12 PM EST (#212302) #
I can't say that I'm the biggest Wilner fan.

I get that he deals with ignorant callers most of the time but I personally just don't like the manner in which he chooses to deal with them. I find that when given the option, he'd rather insult than educate an ignorant caller.

He also habitually passes his own opinion off as fact. Which would be fine if he didn't so hypocritically insult his callers for doing so.

But all of those complaints are personality related, my biggest complaint is content related. Far too often I find that he will avoid what could be a really interesting discussion in favour of his insults and one liners.

For example, he could have a caller who wants to discuss Roy Halladay versus Dave Stieb. If the caller says that "Stieb's 1983 was better than Halladay's 2003" he'll just reply with "Actually Stieb's 1982 was his best season" and hang up the phone. Its that kind of behaviour that really gets me because it cheats you out of intelligent discussion.
stevieboy22 - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 01:42 PM EST (#212303) #

I get that he deals with ignorant callers most of the time but I personally just don't like the manner in which he chooses to deal with them. I find that when given the option, he'd rather insult than educate an ignorant caller.

Thats actually my favourite thing about him. I don't get why so many people feel the need to call in a sports talk show who have no idea what they are talking about. If you have the nerve to call in any show and make a bunch of untrue statements, you deserve to be made a fool of. It doesn't happen nearly enough on the fan for my tastes.

I don't know how many people listen to the fan on a given hour, but I would assume that during the day there are tens of thousands of listeners, and if you call in a show and say things that are just untrue you're wasting a couple of minutes of a lot of all those peoples time. The reality is, they need a better method of screening callers.

Mylegacy - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 01:54 PM EST (#212304) #
Twitter

During games I twitter Morgan P Campbell and Jordan Bastian both twitter throughout the game and between the two it's quite good.

Ryan Day - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 02:21 PM EST (#212305) #
Bastian notes that if Marcum stays on a five-day rotation, he'll be on schedule to start Opening Day. And he looked sharp today: 3 innings, 2 K, 1 hit, no walks.
whiterasta80 - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 03:29 PM EST (#212306) #
If you have the nerve to call in a show and make a bunch of untrue statements, you deserve to be CORRECTED, nothing more!

Stevieboy22, its comments like yours which make me worry for the future of baseball in Toronto. Are you happier with an empty dome and low end payroll? Because that's the consequence of the kind of sanctimonious behaviour that you are advocating. I have news for you, new baseball fans are ignorant, its a consequence of being NEW TO SOMETHING. Insulting the new fans is just going to turn them away from the game and on to something else. But hey, at least it might make you feel better about yourself. Congrats to you and to Wilner, you guys are so smart, and so special, I'm sure you "never" said anything about baseball that was wrong when you were starting out.

Until the dome is full every night with a 3000 person season ticket waiting list you can't afford to turn new fans off. If you are a fan of baseball then you need to do everything you can to grow the fanbase in Toronto, not tear it down. Mike Wilner is in a prime position to build the fan base, and in some respects he does a good job. He should be commended for being so available to the Jays fans (the show, his blog...) but more often than not he chooses not to take the low road when faced with an ignorant fan and I find that disappointing.

stevieboy22 - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 04:15 PM EST (#212307) #

 But hey, at least it might make you feel better about yourself.

You're right, it makes me feel a lot better about myself.

Congrats to you and to Wilner, you guys are so smart, and so special,

Aren't you trying to make an argument about how it's wrong to insult people?

Its comments like yours which make me worry for the future of baseball in Toronto.   So my preference for the way Wilner handles callers is going to be the death of baseball in Toronto?
John Northey - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 04:59 PM EST (#212308) #
When it comes to talk shows or opinion pages or letters to the editor the big goal is to increase listener/readership.

If being polite worked then TVO would have the highest rated talk show. Listen to 1010 or 640 or 590 and you get a batch of guys (rarely women) who go on and on about how horrible stuff is, or how so-and-so is an idiot. Watch question period for the government and you get the same junk. Why? People like to watch/listen to car wrecks which is what these are.

If you call in they put you on if they think you will get a reaction out of Joe Listener. If you say 'I feel things are OK' then the host will naturally want to say 'idiot, they are not' and get you to yell or say something dumb that they can jump on and get dozens of other people to call in. That is why it is very easy to get printed in papers or put on the air if you really want to - just put forth an opinion which you can claim is 100% true and you'll get everyone against it responding.

Why else would, for example, Lorrie Goldstein be doing 100's of columns on how he feels climate change is a hoax except to get more readers riled up (crazier claims all the time out of him, but it gets letters and emails and comments on the Sun site). Think about it -> ratings = listeners = more advertising dollars and you will see why strong opinions rule and thoughtful commentary doesn't. Until Joe Listener wants thoughtful debate that is how it will go.
Mike Green - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 05:54 PM EST (#212309) #
I agree with most of that, John.  But, Andy Barrie did get good ratings with a more thoughtful approach.  Before him, Peter Gzowski was pretty popular.  The Canadian market is somewhat different from the American one. 
TamRa - Thursday, March 11 2010 @ 11:45 PM EST (#212310) #
Without pointing any fingers at any individuals here, it has been my observation when the discussion has come up elsewhere, that the posters most likely to complain about Wilner being condescending to callers are the same folks most often seen condescending to posters who say things they judge as "stupid"

Point being - The worst Wilner can be accused of is speaking in exactly the same manner that 80% of fan-posters use on BBS/chat/twitter/whatever....


Spifficus - Friday, March 12 2010 @ 12:22 AM EST (#212311) #

It doesn't seem right to put him on the same scale as a poster or a caller or other form of 'common man'. It is, after all, his job, for which he is trained.

At the same time, he's human, and gets frustrated when asked the same question over and over, or hearing hearing logical leaps that definitely took a header off a cliff. Personal attacks on players should almost always be met with some form of ridicule (which Wilner thankfully obliges), and other times it just feels like the only way to get the point across.

In the larger scheme of talk shows and other parts of the adversarial infotainment industry, however, he isn't particularly condescending. Also, at least a) he isn't glorifying the conflict itself like panels of any sort, political, sports, or other, and b) at least he's trying to say SOMETHING and not just spouting cliche and spin. It also doesn't hurt that he has a point of view I agree with a fair amount of the time.

92-93 - Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 06:37 PM EST (#212355) #
In the larger scheme of talk shows and other parts of the adversarial infotainment industry, however, he isn't particularly condescending.

He's incredibly condescending - this is a man who can't let callers say "we" or "our" when referring to the Blue Jays without letting it slide. It really gets tiresome.
greenfrog - Sunday, March 14 2010 @ 01:31 AM EST (#212358) #
Yeah, I never really understood the schoolmarm obsession with correcting fans for saying "we" or "our." I mean, I get it--the collection of major-league athletes comprising the Blue Jays won a game; "we" didn't win the game. But this has always been a way that fans express devotion for their favourite team. Should parents have reprimanded their kids for saying, "we won!" when Team Canada beat the U.S. in the gold-medal hockey game? "I'm sorry, dear. Technically, you're incorrect. Team Canada won. Sidney Crosby won. Roberto Luongo won. But 'we' didn't win anything."
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