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I recently came upon my old prospect guides and I thought it might be interesting to look back six years to see where  the Blue Jay prospects were rated.  Given the current uninspiring reviews of our farm system it might give us some hope that a lower rated prospect can make the jump to become a major league regular.



Here is the Baseball America top ten and notables from the 2004 handbook which was based on performances in the 2003 season.

1. Alex Rios
2. Dustin McGowan
3. Guillermo Quiroz
4. Gabe Gross
5. Francisco Rosario
6. Aaron Hill
7. David Bush
8. Vince Perkins
9. Russ Adams
10. Brandon League

11. Josh Banks
13. Kevin Cash
17. Jason Werth
21. Shaun Marcum
23. Vinnie Chulk
29. Simon Pond


Fifteen of those sixteen guys appeared in the major leagues, Vince Perkins is the only one not to get the proverbial "cup of coffee".

There are eight players here that I consider to have established themselves as major leaguers.  They are Rios, McGowan, Gross, Hill, Bush, League, Werth and Marcum.  Four pitchers and four hitters comprise the eight.  Eight major leaguers is a very good haul from a top 30 list.

Half the pitchers (two) have lost significant time to injury, namely McGowan and Marcum.  Rios, Hill and Werth are everyday players, Gross generally plays in a platoon.

Six of the top ten have succeeded, there were four players who did not live up to expectations.  Again six successes out of your top ten is a good result.  The four who disappointed are Quiroz, Rosario, Perkins and Adams.  Perkins and Rosario could be grouped together as guys who threw hard but never really developed into pitchers. In addition they were hit by injuries.  Both of them had good fastballs and not a lot else and without the else were exposed at AAA.  Quiroz and Adams never hit enough to hold down a major league job.

Quiroz was 22 at the time of this list and made it to #4 on the back of hitting 20 home runs in AA as a 22 year old.  Quiroz hit .282 in that season, his highest batting average as a minor leaguer to that point.  The previous season Quiroz hit .260 in Dunedin with 12 home runs and was the Jays #12 prospect.  BA did point out that Quiroz's swing could be considered long and mechanical and they said he would never hit above .270 in the major leagues.  I think that prediction came true.

Adams was rated at #9 based on two minor league seasons.  In his second professional season, in 2004, Adams hit .279 in Dunedin and .277 at New Haven.  BA noted that his arm was below average and suggests a future move to second base but there was no criticism of his hitting.

Rosario had TJ surgery in 2003 and did not play but BA liked him enough to leave him at #5 in this list.  Perkins control issues are noted by BA but his ranking was supported by a plus fastball.

The two major "misses" by BA were Werth and Marcum.  In BA's defense Werth was demoted from being ranked #2 the previous season due to injuries and a position change.  Werth injured his wrist in the spring and missed time.  He also made the switch from catcher to the outfield which also reduced his positional value per BA.  Werth had 236 AB's at Syracuse and hit just .237.  BA noted that Werth swung and missed too much to be an everyday major league hitter at this point.  In 2003 at AAA, Werth had 68 K's in 236 AB's which is high but not necessarily fatal to his chances.  Howver he did strikeout 22 times in 48 big league AB's.

Marcum had 34 professional innings under his belt when he was rated at #21.  Marcum was never highly rated on his way through the system.

Given the uncertain nature of prospect performance BA did a decent job of ranking the prospects and again we should remember that BA favours the high potential players.  Five tool players like Rios and hard throwers like McGowan and Rosario always rate better in the BA system.

I also have John Sickels prospect book from 2004 and here are his rankings of these players.

Alex Rios  B+
Dustin McGowan  A-
Guillermo Quiroz  B+
Gabe Gross  B+
Francisco Rosario  not rated
Aaron Hill  B+
David Bush  B+
Vince Perkins  C+
Russ Adams  B
Brandon League  B

Josh Banks  B+
Kevin Cash  B-
Jason Werth  not rated
Shaun Marcum  C+
Vinnie Chulk  C+
Simon Pond  C-

Sickels was less enthusiastic than BA about Vince Perkins, correctly, but he had higher hopes for Josh Banks.

I am sure the Jays would love to have two players rated outside the top ten this year develop into copies of Jason Werth and Shaun Marcum.  It could happen.  However the bottom line is that in general BA and Sickels did a good job in identifying who the top prospects were.  Werth had been in the top ten the previous year and dropped due to injury.  Marcum had not pitched much in college and as a result there was a limited track record on which to evaluate him.  This doesn't give us a lot of hope that there are stars in the lower levels of the Jays top 30 prospects.  In a few days we will cast a wider net to all the major league prospects from 2004 to see where we find some lower rated future stars.

Top 30 Prospects - 2004 Retro | 19 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Thomas4343 - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 08:07 AM EST (#211208) #
Jason Werth.  Who could have guessed that one.
John Northey - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 09:01 AM EST (#211209) #
Always interesting.  I saw a 2004 prospect guide from BA on Saturday at a Value Village but decided not to bother with it.  Doing a quick web search I found Baseball Prospectus top 40 from 1999 being reviewed in 2000.  Part 1 is at http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=437 (Jays content: Tom Evans just behind #37 Roy Halladay), part 2 here(no Jays), part 3 here (no Jays), part 4 is here () and part 5 here (no Jays, top 8 were Eric Chavez, JD Drew, Alex Escobar, Bruce Chen, Pablo Ozuna, Nick Johnson, Octoval Dotel, and Jeremy Giambi).  They mention that there were eight prospects listed by both Baseball America and Sickels in their respective Top 40s who didn’t make theirs: Ryan Anderson, John Patterson, Alex Gonzalez, Pat Burrell, Matt Riley, A.J. Burnett, Braden Looper and Ryan Bradley.   Interesting eh?
Mike Green - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 01:40 PM EST (#211210) #
Here is what I said in November 03 when da Box did a prospect poll:

"My picks:
1. Rios
2. Quiroz
3. McGowan
4. Bush
5. Gross
6. Banks
7. Vermilyea
8. Arnold
9. Sequea
10. Adams

I'm comfortable with picks 1-5. Afterwards, it gets really dicey; you could just as easily pick League, Perkins, Isenberg or Marcum, and you wouldn't get any argument from me. Below double A, it's just too hard to predict. Josh Banks could end up as Josh Beckett or as Josh Towers by the time he arrives."

I have no idea why I didn't mention Aaron Hill.  I thought very highly of him from the day he was drafted.

christaylor - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 03:53 PM EST (#211215) #
The only interesting factoid I've heard about Josh Banks is that he throws a knuckleball (and has at the ML level). I've never seen him do it, nor read how good it is relative to the masters... the career of Josh Banks has the possibility of looking much better at some (possibly distant) point in the future.
rtcaino - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 04:11 PM EST (#211216) #
Did the Jays ever try Banks out of the pen before he left the organization?

I don't recall reading about such usage. After he kind of stagnated in AAA I thought maybe a transition to the pen might be beneficial.
TamRa - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 06:22 PM EST (#211218) #
This doesn't give us a lot of hope that there are stars in the lower levels of the Jays top 30 prospects.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Take Werth for instance he WAS in the top 10 one year, then he wasn't. Taking the snapshot of any one year's list doesn't give you a complete picture - rather, was a player EVER in the top 10.

For a current example - Seirra isn't in the BA top 10 this year - if he's in their top 10 NEXT year, then he's still a guy who's not in the top 10 in 2010

 Am I making sense?

There's any number of guys in our system right now who are not in THIS year's top 10 who might well at some point be ranked in the top 10 before they make the majors.

In that regard, I don't think it's accurate to say that because a player isn't in any one year's top 10 means the odds are greatly against him.

On the other hand, a guy like Marcum who's never highly ranked and still turns out good is indeed rare.

Jason Werth.  Who could have guessed that one.

Me.

I LOVED Werth as a prospect when we had him, though I was suggesting moving him to 3b or 1b rather than the outfield.I had really high hopes for the guy as a hitter.

I was crushed when we dealt him for Frasor though has turned out fairly well.

Not that this makes me a genius, i was in love with Felipe Lopez too and was devestated when we dealt him.

dan gordon - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 07:03 PM EST (#211219) #

Jayson Werth is a great example of the importance of the age at which a prospect achieves something.  I thought Werth was an excellent prospect and was very happy when the Jays got him, then very disappointed when they traded him.  He put up excellent numbers for his age and level starting in '97 when he OPS'd .830 in the Gulf Coast League at age 17/18.  Small sample size, but he continued in '98, with an OPS of .751 in the South Atlantic League at age 18/19.  The first stumble he had was in '01 at the age of 21/22 in AA, but note how young he still was for his level.  The Orioles made the mistake of trading him to Toronto, and he regained his form in '02 with an OPS of .798 in AAA the age of 22/23.  The next year he had some injury problems, struggled, and the Jays made the same mistake the Orioles did and traded him to L.A.  At least the Jays got a decent player in exchange.  After his stumble in '03, Werth picked it up again in '04 and hit 16 HR's in the big leagues at the age of 24/25 in only 290 AB's.  He's had some injury problems since then, but looks like he has finally gotten healthy and is now an outstanding player.  If he hadn't had those injury problems he could have been a well established star player by now.  He's still only 31.

This is why you have to be careful in evaluating guys who are really young.  A guy who is only 18 or 19 still has a lot of time to get better, and will continue to improve, on average, until roughly age 27.  That is why I hate trading guys like Johermyn Chavez (included in the Morrow trade) who hit 21 HR's in A ball this past season at age 20.  Guys who can do that have major upside, and often they turn out to be Jason Werth.  Or better.  Chavez went in the Morrow trade and might end up being the best player in the trade.  Yes, he was repeating a level, but again, you have to consider his age.  He might not make it at all, but he has serious potential.

Ryan Day - Monday, January 18 2010 @ 07:37 PM EST (#211220) #
I always find it interesting to look back at these sort of things, and it's important to note that no prospect evaluations are perfect: Great looking players flop, and middling prospects turn into solid players. And the more you try to be completely authoritative, the greater the chance you'll look pretty stupid down the line - it's entertaining to see BP (in one of the pieces John posted) berate BA for not properly valuing Jeremy "out of baseball by 30" Giambi.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 05:47 AM EST (#211221) #
What happened to Josh Banks?   Very simple, J.P. Ricciardi, ignored him.   J.P. didn't see if he needed extra instruction, nor did he ever conceive of one of his starters ever being a reliever.
MatO - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 09:31 AM EST (#211226) #
Nothing happened to Josh Banks.  He just isn't very good.  The Padres used him as a starter and reliever and came to the same conclusion.  Now it's the Astros turn to find all that hidden talent.
John Northey - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 10:00 AM EST (#211227) #
If Banks (and the team he is with) is smart he'll focus on that knuckleball and work at becoming a master at it.  There are few knuckleballers but if you make it as one you can have a very long career.  Given he is going nowhere as is I'd say it is time to push that option. 

Likewise for guys in the Jays system at the lower levels but at an advanced age - focus on knuckleball and/or sidearm pitching and see if you can revive your career.  If you are 24 and in A ball these should be mandatory to try as odds are extremely low of making the majors unless you are an early round pick who is coming off surgery.  For the team it is a no lose situation - if the kid works out you have a useful pitcher, if not you didn't really lose anything.

brent - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 04:43 PM EST (#211238) #
How is anyone supposed to know that they need to wait for his age 29 season for him to breakout? He even missed all of his age 27 season. You have to have the right coaching too because some players just need to be tweaked (Scutaro for example?) and everything is different.
rpriske - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 04:45 PM EST (#211239) #

Is Noah Coslov of mlb.com considered reliable? Because he just tweeted:

Word out of Puerto Rico is that the Jays signed Delgado

http://twitter.com/mlbCoz/statuses/7960427699

ANationalAcrobat - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 04:52 PM EST (#211240) #

If true, this is not necessarily a bad thing for a few reasons:

  • It forces Wallace to hit his way to the show.
  • When one of Lind/Snider/Overbay/Wells gets hurt or underperforms, we will have Ruiz and Wallace waiting.
  • A healthy Delgado could be a great trade chip in the summer.

I don't like the idea of Ruiz being blocked but let's not forget that he's 32 and has been suspended for PED use twice.

deep dish - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 05:21 PM EST (#211244) #

Checked the Twitter feed for other news, and the "word" has been downgraded to "rumour".

I don't hate the idea of Delgado back with the Jays, but it doesn't seem to fit AA's pattern so far.

 

christaylor - Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 08:35 PM EST (#211247) #
Shot down by both AA and Delgado's agent. Too bad.
Doom Service - Wednesday, January 20 2010 @ 01:29 AM EST (#211248) #
Delgado might be a pipedream, but there's always Jeremy Reed.... more hunkering down with devalued ex-top prospects.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 20 2010 @ 06:49 AM EST (#211249) #

If you are 24 and in A ball

You can be healthy, 24 years of age, in A ball and still be in your 2nd year of professional baseball since your draft.   If you can't think of any reason for this to happen, think real life.     Low Rookie, High Rookie, Low A, Mid A, High A, AA, and AAA is a long road to the majors that not everyone makes.   Sometimes, for all the talent, you must grow up first.   Some people never do.  

christaylor - Wednesday, January 20 2010 @ 08:48 AM EST (#211254) #
I'm not sure the details of the level and age matter for the point at hand. It is always important to remember that players are people, each with individual psychology that is only made more complex by sometimes having large sums of cash thrown at them. Josh Hamilton.

The main point as I see it is not to pigeon-hole pitchers as starters/relievers and encourage players to learn new skills as much as possible, especially ones that seem under-utilized/valued in the game at this time or ones they have in their repertoire that have not be refined. At some point in the future a middling "failed prospect" pitcher is going to be taught/refine a knuckleball/screwball, take to it and come to the majors and dominate, even if only for a short time. Then other teams will follow suit.

Coaching a player from zero or less than zero major league value... that can have a ton of value, the Roy Halladay 2000 is a good example. Going from an over the top-delivery to 3/4 is not as extreme as going side-arm but pretty close. Although Halladay is an example of psychology playing a role as well with his confessed fear of failure.

The money (even the ML is tempting) and prestige of being a in MLB has made both players and organizations conservative. When Nolan Ryan talks about pitchers not using their legs enough, Hough talks about the lost art of the knuckleball and Bill James talks about how mundane the wind-up has become relative to past eras -- it has to make one think. The reason for these comments that I've come up with... baseball conservatism. The conservatism might be justified but my feeling is there ought to be more examples of Valenzuela, Wakefield or Quisenberry/Bradford than there have been. I'm willing to be wrong, I'm not coach, but the data (the number of said pitchers and their effectiveness does not pass the smell test).
Top 30 Prospects - 2004 Retro | 19 comments | Create New Account
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