I suppose that's adequate payback for the Jays fleecing the Reds out of Stewart & Roenicke.  Hey Chapman, lots of luck toiling for Dusty Baker. 

Disappointing that the Jays couldn't land Chapman, but encouraging that they were able to muster $23-million for the offer.  Another interesting detail: Anthopolous himself flew down to Florida with the Jays scouts to attend their private workout with Chapman.  This guy is obsessive about the hunt for prospects.  According to one report, the Chapman workout was 2 days before AA's wedding!   Not sure what his fiancee thought about that, but from the viewpoint of a Jays fan it's nice to have a GM who puts nothing ahead of his team....  not even his personal life....   (I also like the Star story that describes how every inch of AA's apartment walls is covered with slips of paper listing various players and teams in the Jays system and elsewhere....  and he admits that he'd cover the windows with paper too if he could.)

The Reds swoop in with a 30mill offer, well more power to them because I think that is too much money.

 

And that hat i sugly. Take off the little cartoon and just have the double D and now we are talking!

Disappointing that we couldn't land him.  As I said before, all the bravado about going after him means nothing if we can't close the deal.  However time will tell if Cincy spent their money wisely and I'm find with the Jays pulling out above 25 million. 

I just hope that the money we saw being clearly available here is around for the next time we need to sign a draft pick or IFA.

Checking Rotoworld I see $25 for 5 plus a player option for year 6 at $5+ million.  Thus if he takes off quickly it will be good, but if you assume 2010 will be a A/AA/AAA season with a minor September role followed by a full 2011-2014 then you are paying $6.25 million a year.  If he is a solid starter or closer then it is a good deal.  If not, then you are overpaying.  I wonder if he has a clause that forces Cincinnati to release him after that fifth year if the option isn't picked up, or once he hits free agency that they cannot offer arbitration (aka poison pills to put pressure to sign or lose everything).

Weird to see what is one of the smallest markets come out and win this battle.  One wonders why.the big guys didn't push harder. 

You need not wonder when national writers such as Jorge Arangure & Jon Heyman say it's because of character issues.

You're going to have to substantiate that "character issue" claim, 92-93, if you want us to believe it.   First, I find it hard to believe that $30-million would be given to Chapman if he had such obvious "character issues."   Second, I don't think you're quoting those journalists accurately -- you're giving your own throwaway one-line summary, rather than linking to them so that we can judge for ourselves.  I don't see anything about this in Heyman's latest SI blog.   As for Jorge Arangure Jr., he wrote a lengthy profile of Chapman for ESPN Magazine last year and it was almost entirely positive.  It didn't mention anything about "character issues."  The only negative comment in the entire article is a couple sentences about his "maturity" because he argued about balls and strikes in a WBC game once.  It's not exactly surprising that a 21-year-old would occasionally seem less than mature, especially in a big international tournament.  And anyway, Chapman himself admitted in the article that Cuban players "argue too much about pitches" and must improve in that area.  This actually seems very mature of him -- admit a weakness and promise to improve it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4390829

From Arangure's Twitter : "btw I'm willing to bet a lot of cash that if Yanks don't sign Chapman it has more to do with makeup than money."

From Heyman's Twitter : "i think the #reds are cracked giving aroldis chapman $30 mil. there, i said it" & "some teams found chapman to be unpolished, immature. #reds must love him however. $30 mil buys a lot of skyline chili"

And those are just a couple of the lines questioning Champan's character that I've seen over the last week. Please don't make me go find the rest.

I wonder if he has a clause that forces Cincinnati to release him after that fifth year if the option isn't picked up, or once he hits free agency that they cannot offer arbitration (aka poison pills to put pressure to sign or lose everything).

It's a player option.  So if he's not a good major league pitcher he gets $30 million and if he is he'll very likely get more than that (as the 6th year would likely be his 2nd year of arbitration).

Good move by his agent, especially when no other teams seemed to even be at $25 million.

And I'll echo Chinafan's comment about it being a good sign that the Jays were apparently willing to go as far as they did, and had a point at which they wouldn't go any further.  It makes me think that we won't have any signing issues at this draft like last year.

Meh, I am a little disappointed, but what can you do. Cincy's AAA affiliate is in Louisville, so at least I might get to see Chapman pitch a little this year or next.

As for the Jays...save that 23 million and use it to go after Yu Darvish whenever he decides to make the jump. :-)

"Unpolished and immature" isn't exactly the same as having a major character issue.  I wonder how Nuke Laloosh did when he made it to the Show.

92-93, you'll have to keep digging for evidence.  To say that Chapman is "unpolished" and "immature" is not exactly a "character issue."   Unpolished?  You could say the same about the vast majority of 21-year-old prospects.  Immature?  That's pretty common among 21-year-olds too.

In baseball, a "character issue" usually means someone who is lazy, using drugs, fighting with coaches, or something equally serious -- not just "lacking polish."

Also, a footnote about Twitter:  the 140-character limit of Twitter isn't exactly the best venue for discussing the complex personality of a baseball player.  To fit within that 140-character limit, a lot of twitterers have to compress their thoughts to the point of virtual meaninglessness.  To me, it's not the best source for proving a serious point about someone's supposed weaknesses.

Mike Green, you beat me to the punch.

Mary (no relation to Vernon) Wells agrees.:)

This has been an interesting exercise.  A family member asked me about Chapman recently - someone who is a mild baseball fan (will watch once in awhile, go to a game if someone offers, if they are winning will become a big fan again).  A good sign that even not getting him has gotten the Jays back on the casual fans radar even if just for a moment.

The Jays need to be in the hunt for these top quality kids from other countries, and have to sign a few as time goes by.  The casual fan will come back, or at least watch a few more games (thus more $$ for Rogers) if they keep themselves in the news in a positive way.  Come summertime if a kid from the minors does well I bet that family members asks if that was the guy the Jays were chasing in the winter.  Not as effective as actual winning, but getting a positive buzz going is a big thing.

I wonder how Nuke Laloosh did when he made it to the Show.

He learned his way around ...

"A good friend of mine used to say, 'This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.' Think about that for a while."

 

Plus, thanks to Nuke, we know that women do get woolly...

And I'll echo Chinafan's comment about it being a good sign that the Jays were apparently willing to go as far as they did, and had a point at which they wouldn't go any further.  It makes me think that we won't have any signing issues at this draft like last year.

I thought that going as far as they did but having a point at which they wouldn't go any further was pretty much exactly the strategy the Jays employed with those draft picks they didn't sign.

You have a strange definition of "character" if a player's maturity level isn't a big part of the equation.

And I didn't use the word "major", which is the entire premise of Mike's post. Crash Davis was brought to the Bulls to deal with Calvin's character issues.

So, I guess that in 2011, after Gregg Zaun spends a productive years in Milwaukee, he'll move on to Cincinnati.  A catcher's wisdom for a few fine smuggled Cuban cigars seems like a good deal (surely, if Chapman snuck out with his passport, he managed to bring out something much more valuable).

I just want to thank you for the Mary Wells link. She was great and that was one of three TopTen records she had that year.

How long till somebody reports for something somewhere?

The spring training schedules are out.  Toronto plays Detroit seven times in the spring, which is the most I can recall those teams ever facing each other in the Grapefruit League.  The Jays play two exhibition games in Houston before heading to Arlington to start the season.

The tweet about the Yankees passing on him because he is "immature" is complete garbage.  The Yankees just drafted and signed Slade Heathcott in the first round to over $2-million -- Heathcott had several character questions brought up during the time of the draft.  Didn't seem to bother the Yankees when they decided to pay him nearly as much money as the #8 pick Mike Leake.

According to Ed Price, the Jays have been scouting Carlos Delgado in Puerto Rico. It won't take much more than a 1yr/5 mil deal to get him and it would provide the Jays with some much needed good PR. I would like to see how Randy Ruiz performs as the full time DH but I wouldn't be upset if Delgado gets to retire as a Blue Jay. The casual fan needs a reason to come out to watch the Jays next season and Delgado might slightly help attendance.

Last time I checked $30 million is 15 times more then $2 million but I guess those are similar investments.  Certainly $2 million for the Yankees and $30 million for Reds are almost identical.  The Yankees checked out on Chapman a long time ago because of 'makeup concerns'.  If those concerns are legitimate or not I guess we'll see in the future but unless they are pulling a Riccardi they made it clear why they weren't involved.

Last time I checked $30 million is 15 times more then $2 million but I guess those are similar investments.  Certainly $2 million for the Yankees and $30 million for Reds are almost identical.  The Yankees checked out on Chapman a long time ago because of 'makeup concerns'.  If those concerns are legitimate or not I guess we'll see in the future but unless they are pulling a Riccardi they made it clear why they weren't involved.

The point is that they have shown no trend of declining talent for "makeup" concerns.  They went way way over slot to sign Heathcott.  They had no problem signing AJ Burnett who is a hot-head.  They drafted Joba Chamberlain and paid him over slot when he had "makeup concerns"; concerns that still show up on the mound.

If the Yankees thought that Chapman was a future #1 starter do you honestly believe they'd let "makeup" get in the way of signing him?  C'mon.

Again $30 million is a big difference from what they paid the draft picks.  The Yankees didn't like Chapman, the reasons that trickled out where that he couldn't handle NY, he'd be a reliever and general 'makeup'.  If the pricetag was what the paid Heathcott or Chamberlain it would be another story.  Keep in mind they would also have to pay the luxury tax on that $30 million which they don't pay on the Jobas of the world.

I have to admit. The thought of having Carlos back in TO excites me. Especially if we can move Overbay.

I figure the issue for the Red Sox and Yankees would've been Chapman's ability to handle the massive pressure cooker that the Boston-NY area creates.  Cincinnati, on the other hand, should be a lot quieter and easier for him to avoid the media in.  Up here with the hockey addiction many have he'd have been a story for a few days then faded.  But in NY with the Yankees he'd have been hit by more than one reporter who would've decided he wanted to get some dirt on the new kid and wouldn't quit until he had it.  It is not an easy market to survive in, even with $30 mil in the bank.

Another former first rounder is now a Blue Jay (from Rotoworld):

"Blue Jays signed OF Chris Lubanski to a minor league contract.  Lubanski was drafted fifth overall by the Royals back in 2003 but he failed to make a good impression on management in his six years with the club. Now 24 years of age, he'll have to work his way up to the big leagues via Triple-A Las Vegas. He hit .227/.313/.341 last year for Triple-A Omaha."

The casual fan needs a reason to come out to watch the Jays next season and Delgado might slightly help attendance.

A casual fan isn't going to a game because a player that used to be really good, but is now in the twilight of his career, is on the team.  And certainly not $5 million worth.  If you want to keep spinning in place the best way to do that is to cater to the 'casual fan'.

If the Jays trade Overbay and are looking for a place holder for a year (like SS and C) then it's no real harm if Delgado shows something in the winter league, but otherwise it's pointless to me.

Even if we don't trade Overbay, why not Delgado at DH, Lind in LF?

Give Delgado 2m + incentive laden contract, plus a team option for a 2nd year. Anothopolous stated that Delgado's agent has contacted the Jays about returning. At this point, maybe money isn't as much  of a factor as finishing his career in Toronto is.

Re: Lind; I think that we all thought he'd be making the switch to first, but with Wallace now in the fold, that isn't going to happen. Lind is either going to need to learn how to play left field at some point, or he's going to end up being a career DH.

Odds are the agent called the Jays due to Delgado needing bidders to get anything for 2010.  His defense was never the best and DH is probably the best role for him now - not that it stops a lot of NL teams from signing DH's in waiting (Dunn for example). 

I'd love to see Delgado come back for a farewell tour and he'd only block Dopirek and/or Ruiz both of whom are longshots anyways (yes, I'd like them given shots but I'd enjoy watching Delgado more at this point).  He is 27 home runs away from 500, has cracked 1500 RBI's, has 2038 hits thus no risk to hit any milestones there, 17 doubles from 500.  Be nice to see him get to 500 HR here, 500 doubles being a nice bonus and if healthy those should be reachable (38 HR in 2008, 11 of 13 full seasons over 30 HR's, other two were 138/9 games played with 24/25 HR's).  Only twice has he been below 100 for OPS+ and those were before he reached 100 games played (1993/1995).  Only 2 other times has he been below 110 - 1994 and 2007 while 1996 was his only other year below 125. 

If healthy he is a major contributor in 2010 with potential for 2011/2012 as well.  Ideally a low base with incentives and a team option for 2011.

Delgado might be a nice addition as an unofficial hitting coach - he always had a great reputation for taking notes on pitchers and preparation. It would be a great story if he got to 500 homers, mentored the young hitters, and retired a Blue Jay.

On the other hand, I worry that if he is at the end of the road and struggles throughout the season, Cito will keep running him out there out because he's a respected vet. Carlos is one of my all-time favourite Jays, but I don't want to see him become Kevin Millar Part II.

I don't want to see him become Kevin Millar Part II. AMEN!

This casual fan would rather see Randy Ruiz than Carlos Delgado.  I have high concerns about how Gaston will treat both of them - ie not use Ruiz enough, overuse Delgado.  Delgado has been troubled by injuries and if he is signed, then I suspect that Ruiz will end up with an other organization, as I doubt he has any options left.  So Ruiz would be unavailable if Delgado did get hurt.  [Please tell me if I'm wrong about his options as I do not know where to check this.]

Steve

I think signing Delgado might send the wrong message, i.e., that the Jays are a kind of country club where aging veterans can safely play out the string away from media scrutiny. I think the lack of media scrutiny has something to do with it. Over the last couple of years we've seen a series of abysmal performances (Wilkerson, Stewart, Mench, Millar, Dellucci) that would never have been tolerated in Boston or New York. As much as I appreciated Delgado, I'm really not interested in seeing the team play the "proven hitter" / fan favourite card yet again (although I do find the idea of Delgado as a potential coach somewhere down the line intriguing).

Signing an older player to see if he's got anything left doesn't hurt. Sometimes you get a Stairs, Bordick, or Myers. It's only a problem if you don't get rid of them when it's obvious they don't have anything left.

A casual fan isn't going to a game because a player that used to be really good

Actually, that's one of the MAIN reasons I went to a Jays game 2nd last day of '98. As it happened, I got to see Dave Stieb (one of my top-3 all-time favourite Jays) pitch his last game ever as a Jay. Sure, it was only one game, but still...

Having Delgado on the team WOULD be a reason to go see the Jays (in Oakland). If they played the A's at a reasonable date/time. It wouldn't be the ONLY reason, but it would be a factor for me.

Similarly if I still lived in Ontario..

I'm not sure Randy Ruiz is much of a draw for the casual fan.

Lind is either going to need to learn how to play left field at some point, or he's going to end up being a career DH.

Gaston's preference seems to be Lind at DH, Snider in LF and Bautista in RF. I don't know what the current "organizational" stance is on all this, however. Lind played the outfield about a third of the time in 2009 and I believe that much of that was only after Snider was sent to AAA (though I could be mistaken).

Bautista obviously has no business starting against RHP, so if he is platooned it will be interesting to see if his platoonmate is a DH (with Lind moving to the OF) or an OF (with Lind staying at DH). Maybe a Bautista/Gathright RF platoon is in the offing for the leadoff spot in the order? (I am not endorsing this, merely speculating.)

No matter how this shakes out, I think Ruiz is out of the equation.

Likewise for me.  In 1998 I went to see Stieb's last start.  Back in '87 the chance to see Phil Neikro start for the Jays was a big incentive as well.  Mix in Tony Fernandez number retirement to get the games I went to in order to see a specific player.  I was also lucky enough to be there for John Olerud's first game and Fred McGriff's first home run.

A single player won't skyrocket ticket sales or TV ratings, but they can help.  Delgado also, if healthy, could be a major asset and should come at a reasonable price.  Ruiz is a guy I want to see succeed but Delgado is a guy I'd want to see play.

Delgado will only block aaaa players as mentioned not prospects. He would be a modest draw but the fact he might actually win the jays some games may also be a draw.