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We may have very different thoughts on this draft in five years if Jenkins reaches the majors quickly and pitches well and Paxton struggles after being drafted next year and flounders in the low minors. However, at this point in time, due to an unprecedented failure to sign their top picks, there is no grade to give the Jays other than an F (or perhaps a generous D-).

To begin with I decided to look at the results of this year’s draft to see if there was a comparable failure to sign picks their picks from any other team in the majors. In the 2009 draft there were 24 unsigned picks in the first 10 rounds, which totalled 321 players (I did most of the math/data entry in this column quickly and late at night, so I apologize if I made any oversights or errors, although I’m confident they would be very minor.) Those 24 players include Aaron Crow and Tanner Scheppers, who are eligible to sign up until the date of next year’s draft. I’m going to operate on the assumption both sign, as although neither is an “easy” sign, I doubt Crow wants to return for another year of independent ball and Scheppers will be a focus for Texas moving forward.

If Scheppers signs that will leave the Rangers, Rays and Jays as the teams with the most unsigned draft picks in the top ten at three each. Texas didn’t sign their first rounder (another reason I expect Scheppers to sign eventually, as Texas will want to make up for not signing Purke) and Tampa was unable to agree to terms with their first or second rounder. However, each team’s remaining unsigned pick(s) were in the lower third of the top ten rounds (TB 10th rd; Texas 9th and 10th round).

To be fair the Jays did spend more money than six other teams in the majors on their draft class (although Texas may make that five once they sign Scheppers), but the team appears to have let a golden opportunity slip away in not signing three of their top four picks. The team did spend money on a few names later in the draft, but these names had mixed scouting reports, especially relative to names like Paxton, Eliopoulos and Barrett.

The failure to sign three of the top 100 picks is something probably unprecedented, but I wanted to find out more than that. If we draw the line at 100 than we’re creating a standard where the minimum is just below what the Jays “accomplished” and then acting surprised when everyone else is outside of it. Using Baseball America’s draft tracker, I decided to go back as far as I could and see if I could find any comparable drafts where teams failed to sign three picks in the first five rounds. This would open the criteria up to about 175 players a year and include six or more players for many teams when supplemental picks were included.

Surely there would be another team that had a similar draft, right? For those that can’t wait I’ll end the suspense and say that there wasn’t in the five drafts I looked at, including 2009. One hundred and fifty draft boards and only one had three picks in the first five rounds not sign. And, there were hardly any with two picks to not sign.

In 2008 there were two teams that failed to sign two picks in the first five rounds. The Angels failed to sign a supplemental third rounder and a fifth rounder and the Yankees failed to sign Gerrit Cole, their first round pick, as well as their second round pick The Yankees did sign a supplemental first rounder between those two unsigned picks. They also made up for not spending in the draft by signing C.C. Sabathia, AJ Burnett and Mark Teixeira that offseason. With such an investment in free agency I can understand cutting a million or two out of the draft budget and if the Jays spend $400 million in free agency I’ll completely understand their failure to sign Paxton and the others.

How about 2006? How many are there that year? One. The Astros failed to sign their third and fourth rounders, which incidentally were their two picks in the draft. That’s pretty bad, but the Astros have hardly been the model franchise over the past few years.

Skipping back to 2006 there were no teams that even failed to sign two picks in the first five rounds. Strangely, Baseball America has a draft database for 2003, despite not having one (or one I could find) for 2004 and 2005. I checked 2003 and, like 2006, not one team had a draft with two unsigned players in those first few rounds.

To repeat, I looked at one hundred and fifty drafts and found four where the team didn’t sign two picks in the first five rounds (Astros 2007, Yankees 2008, Angels 2008 and Rays 2009). Oh yes, and one where the team failed to sign three picks in the first three rounds.

What do the Jays have to show for this? Well, the team will receive a makeup pick for each unsigned player and will have six picks in the first three rounds next year, at least. Hopefully they’ll be able to add at least two to that total through offering arbitration to Scutaro. So, the Jays have a reasonable chance to have eight picks in the first three rounds next year.

And that’d be great if I had any confidence that the Jays would use those picks wisely and sign those players. Right now, I have no such confidence and I don’t see how one can assume the team will sign all the players until they have six or eight signatures at the bottom of contracts next August.

Regardless, the Jays have already lost leverage for the 2010 draft as they will not receive a pick in 2011 if they fail to sign whomever they draft in the slots that are given as makeup picks for Paxton, Eliopoulos and Barrett. Thus, the Jays have lost negotiating leverage. If I was a player drafted in one of those slots by the Jays next year I’d hope my agent pushed a very hard bargain in negotiations, as the team will lose the pick if the player isn’t signed.

Consequently, I expect to see at least two Magnuson/Storen-type picks in those slots. It’s not that Magnuson or Storen aren’t talented prospects, but rather that they were considered easy signs or had little leverage themselves and were drafted higher than where they should have been. I expect you’ll see college seniors and overdrafts in these makeup picks, as the Jays will have to sign these players or end up with egg on their face.

I have no idea what went on in the negotiations between the Jays and these three players, but I find it hard to believe the Jays drafted them without a good idea of what it would take to sign them. I have no idea if James Paxton will ever make the major leagues. But, based on the information that is available, there is nothing one can do but conclude Toronto’s failure to sign top picks this draft is unprecedented and, as far as I can see, does not fit into any larger strategy or plan for the team’s future. The team will have a chance to correct this in 2010, but with more players to sign and less leverage it is hard to see how it will be possible without a significant increase in the draft budget. And whether that will occur is anyone’s guess.

2009 Draft: Grade F | 214 comments | Create New Account
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Glevin - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 06:31 AM EDT (#205121) #
This organization is just a complete mess right now...

"Were on a road to nowhere
Come on inside
Takin' that ride to nowhere
Well take that ride"


Denoit - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 07:11 AM EDT (#205122) #
Yes this draft was bad, but with 6 picks (for now) in the top 3 rounds next year they have a chance to have an A+ draft next year.
AWeb - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 07:31 AM EDT (#205123) #
Yes this draft was bad, but with 6 picks (for now) in the top 3 rounds next year they have a chance to have an A+ draft next year.

See, and I had thought that optimism would be hard to come by on this thread. But well done. Also a positive for future drafts - less talent now means higher picks later.

If we must assign grades to things like drafts, I wouldn't give this one an F, it's clearly an INC, or a "failed due to cutting class, held back a year". Yes, next year might better, but this year was a complete waste of everyone's time. It's especially frustrating since the picks they made seemed to be reviewed as good ones at the time.  With another spectacular failure in the books, it's (even more so) time for a change at the top.
Andrew K - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 07:45 AM EDT (#205124) #
Sounds like ownership cut back the money available (surely even an incompetent GM wouldn't draft so many players he couldn't afford). Coupled with the Rios and Rolen salary dumps, it paints a pretty clear picture. I only hope a new owner can be found soon, before this one runs the franchise into the ground. Many more years under Rogers and it will be ready for relocation, perhaps during the next boom period when a US city is feeling rich and offers a new stadium.
sam - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 08:13 AM EDT (#205125) #
Everyone knows that next year they'll draft one or two good looking guys and then severely reach for a college senior or two who don't even belong in the first round conversation (Magnuson) let alone even near the first couple of rounds and we'll have another average draft. So disappointed with the Jays. We let two clear future first rounders go and then a stud lefty.
Jevant - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 08:17 AM EDT (#205126) #
Why wouldn't they just have signed these guys and taken the A+ this year and gone for another one next year as well?

I don't know how people can continue to trust this organization.  The decisions recently simply confound me.

Forkball - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#205130) #
The three players the Jays went over slot for are effectively similar to the picks that didn't sign.  The talent level of players drafted and signed this year is still probably similar to the 2008 draft, which probably means the Jays had an average draft while most of their competition did better.

The frustrating part is that the Jays had the chance to get a top draft this year and let it go.

And I'll disagree with the notion that the Jays will be taking significant overdrafts next year.  They very likely won't take a player that's looking for over slot, but it's not hard to figure out who will sign for slot and draft them.  They just might have to limit themselves to college players (as those players have a little less leverage than HS players).  But they've had plenty of practice doing that so it won't be that tough.

If they want to take premium players they'll just have to do it with non-compensation picks.
rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#205131) #

It is difficult to grade the draft currently. On one hand, this is the first year that compensatory picks have been available for teams that miss out on signing picks. No one really knows the implications of the Blue Jays supposed strategy of drafting the best player, and allowing picks to roll back if common ground is not reached. Further, it remains to be seen whether the ownership has pulled funding from the team, or if management simply decided it was in the team’s best interest to not stray too far from their valuations of these players.  

Statements like this: “if Jenkins reaches the majors quickly and pitches well and  Paxton struggles after being drafted next year and flounders in the low minors” lead to incomplete framing of the situation. The main determination of this draft will be what happens in next draft. If we are able to acquire some solid talent with these picks, while continuing to draft the best player available, and perhaps rolling back a draft pick or two a year due to divergences in player valuations, I am happy with that. Such a scenario is what AA mentioned on his interview with the fan.

WillRain yesterday pointed to a difference between fatalism and skepticism. Yesterdays threads were very depressing. While I surely empathize with the growing frustration the fan base feels towards this team (management and ownership and Vernon Wells in particular), we are also dealing with incomplete sets of information. At very least, we have to wait for the other shoe to drop (or shoes in this case: one being the upcoming free agency period and the other being next years draft).

At first, I was very disappointed that we did not sign our top picks (despite not being super excited about either of the Canadians’ scouting reports). However, given that we get the picks back, I don’t think it is fair to heavily criticize management’s decisions in this case when they have not yet run their course.

rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#205133) #

“Regardless, the Jays have already lost leverage for the 2010 draft as they will not receive a pick in 2011 if they fail to sign whomever they draft in the slots that are given as makeup picks for Paxton, Eliopoulos and Barrett. Thus, the Jays have lost negotiating leverage.”

And they would have more negotiating leverage if they simply met each and every player’s demands?

For these picks in particular, we may need to draft guys that are expected to be able to sign. Not necessarily for slot, but that we will likely be able to sign. With these picks, the Agent has a bit more leverage, and the Jays might be more oriented towards throwing a bit more cash to retain the asset. IE, if we would have lost Eliopoulos without compensation, I have to imagine that a few hundred G’s would have been less of an issue - though the Jays face a definite disincentive to put themselves in such a position to begin with.

However, most years we will be dealing with a mix of picks we can roll back, and picks we must sign. I think our hand is significantly strengthened going forward in dealing with picks that we can roll back.

But as I said, we shall see how it plays out. I’m hoping for the best; I remain mindful of the downside possibilities, but am certainly disinclined to jump to any premature conclusions.

 

“”Using Baseball America’s draft tracker, I decided to go back as far as I could and see if I could find any comparable drafts where teams failed to sign three picks in the first five rounds.””

This is a fundamentally different draft. There is no precedent.

rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#205135) #

""Everyone knows that next year they'll draft one or two good looking guys and then severely reach for a college senior or two who don't even belong in the first round conversation (Magnuson) let alone even near the first couple of rounds and we'll have another average draft.""

The exact opposite is true. Nobody knows that.

While such a scenario is possible, it would be contrary to the recent shift in draft strategy.

Likely they will go for the BPA with the picks they can recieve compensation for, and they will go for the BSPA with picks that they will not.

BSPA - Best Signable Player Available - not necessarily a slot signing, but one that is very (very) probable to be signed.

whiterasta80 - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#205136) #

TJ... I guess you have a point with us needing to wait until next draft (although the Jays and I obviously differ on our evaluation of Paxton). Unfortunately what management did (and why I'm really frustrated) is send a consistent message of cutting costs to the fanbase. 

In isolation, I absolutely LOVE dropping Rios, I have no problem with the Rolen trade, I have no problem with shopping Halladay (although the public-ness bothered me), I have no problem with leaving Snider down to avoid Super 2, and I have no problem with rolling picks over if they ask for too much.

In fact, I like all of those ideas.  However, there is one common thread in all of those and that is cost cutting.  Until there is a franchise move that goes in the other direction (a big free agent splash, a Rick Porcello type draft choice, re-upping Halladay...) its tough not to be pessimistic.

whiterasta80 - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#205137) #

Actually, you don't even have to draft the BSPA.  You can draft the BPA and sign the ones you can, because the picks roll over you never actually lose the talent. In the future be certain of signing a few picks, but play hardball with the ones who would typically play hardball with you.  Make Boras DREAD getting a player selected by the Jays, and reward the guys who play ball by going over slot. The picks will always be rolled over to the next draft and this draft will be the only one that turns out weak. 

Again, if that is the play then I am absolutely happy with that draft strategy (and hopefully other teams will follow suit). But the Jays need to show me something before I believe this is anything more than cost cutting. Unfortunately we won't know about the draft philosophy until next year. By then we should know about the overall financial commitment.

MatO - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#205138) #
I'm not defending what happened but looking at it from the other side, if I'm a pitcher and I'm possibly one pitch away from having my arm fall off, I don't understand why you don't sign if someone is offering you more than decent money (which I'm sure they were).
Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#205140) #
The three players the Jays went over slot for are effectively similar to the picks that didn't sign. The talent level of players drafted and signed this year is still probably similar to the 2008 draft, which probably means the Jays had an average draft while most of their competition did better.

The frustrating part is that the Jays had the chance to get a top draft this year and let it go.

And I'll disagree with the notion that the Jays will be taking significant overdrafts next year. They very likely won't take a player that's looking for over slot, but it's not hard to figure out who will sign for slot and draft them.

If the 3 players you're referring to are the overslot players from this draft, (Hobson, Webb and Hutchinson) than I disagree. Nothing I've read indicates that either is a premium talent or possible first round pick in the future, which has been said of both Paxton and Barrett if they have good years at college. I've never heard anyone say Hobson was a first rounder with another good season.

Secondly, I don't see how the Jays could have an average draft if most of their competition did better. By that definition the Jays draft was below-average. Unless you meant their direct competition, such as AL or AL East teams, but I've still read nothing that indicates that the NL drafts were particularly bad or that the Jays draft was average compared to the rest of baseball.

Thirdly, a player may be willing to sign for slot for most teams, but it's not hard to change that position if you're drafted by the Jays, as you realize that the team has to sign you or forfeit the pick. It's easy to ask for $1 million and then bump that to $1.2 million if Toronto picks you (or whatever the figures may be).

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#205142) #

Stephen Jenkins (RHP),(#20)was drafted about where he was expected and signed for slot, but exactly what he said he'd sign for.   Jacob Marisnick (CF),(#104) slid in the draft and was a steal.  He signed for well over slot, but exactly what he said he'd sign for.  Daniel/Robert Webb (RHP),(#550) slid in the draft and was a steal, signed for 3X slot, but exactly what he said he'd sign for.

Did Jake Barrett (#99) fail a Blue Jay physical to make the team back off?  Is Jake Eliopoulos (#68) more smoke and mirrors than substance, because the team backed off?  What can you say about Scott Boros and his clients - is there a difference?  Is there any Guarentee Canadians can't be as stupid as others about money?

Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#205143) #
Stephen Jenkins (RHP),(#20)was drafted about where he was expected and signed for slot, but exactly what he said he'd sign for. Jacob Marisnick (CF),(#104) slid in the draft and was a steal. He signed for well over slot, but exactly what he said he'd sign for. Daniel/Robert Webb (RHP),(#550) slid in the draft and was a steal, signed for 3X slot, but exactly what he said he'd sign for.

I'm well aware most players sign for exactly what they say they'll sign for. I'm not sure what your point is, other than that the Jays drafted three players in their first four picks that the team didn't sign, when they should have been well aware of what it would cost to sign these players.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#205144) #

what are the chances the Jays are just ahead of the curve here? (Beeston used to be known for that, didn't he?)

With the new rule that all top-3 round picks get equal compensatory picks next year, and with prospect contract demands becoming more and more ridiculous, maybe it's a smart move now not to buckle and feel that you need to sign every player you drafted.....especially if any serious questions have been raised on the kid since draft day (as it seems happened with Elipolous and Barrett).

I mean, sure it might be unprecedented to not sign 3 top-100 picks, but also unprecedented are the current money demands of these players, and the top-3 round full compensatory pick rule.

 

I mean I feel I should be really upset right now - but I just can't seem to get too worked up when we get all these picks back next year anyways.

uglyone - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#205145) #

I guess my point is related more to this paragraph in the OP:

To repeat, I looked at one hundred and fifty drafts and found four where the team didn’t sign two picks in the first five rounds (Astros 2007, Yankees 2008, Angels 2008 and Rays 2009). Oh yes, and one where the team failed to sign three picks in the first three rounds.

 

0 in 2005, 0 in 2006, 1 in 2007, 2 in 2008, 2 in 2009......isn't that starting to look like a trend.

metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#205146) #
Actually, you don't even have to draft the BSPA.  You can draft the BPA and sign the ones you can, because the picks roll over you never actually lose the talent.

The only picks that rollback are your original picks, you pretty much HAVE to draft signable players with the 3 compensation picks we'll have next year.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#205147) #

Metafour, are you sure about that?  If that's the case then the system is still monumentally flawed and we aren't "ahead of the curve".  Personally I was sorta hoping we'd keep rolling picks over until the CBA expires, then use the extra picks along with the new "cap" that's been proposed to load up on talent.

Now I'm even more depressed.  That said, we can still use the comp picks on signable talent and our regular picks on "high risk" talent.

metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#205148) #

what are the chances the Jays are just ahead of the curve here? (Beeston used to be known for that, didn't he?)

With the new rule that all top-3 round picks get equal compensatory picks next year, and with prospect contract demands becoming more and more ridiculous, maybe it's a smart move now not to buckle and feel that you need to sign every player you drafted.....especially if any serious questions have been raised on the kid since draft day (as it seems happened with Elipolous and Barrett).


Sigh.  The chance of this being the case is 0%.

I've seen numerous people post this.  It doesn't 'work' because it is severely flawed.

1) Bonus demands are known before the draft and the Jays are arguably the best in the league in gaging signability.  We KNEW what Paxton, Eliopolous, and Barrett wanted; the chance of ALL of their demands changing significantly is slim to none.  If you know what they want then why would you draft them if you dont plan on meeting those demands? Yeah the picks roll forward next year but that then leads to the following problem:

2) For a team with a completely average Draft Budget (ours is actually probably BELOW average now with everyone else turning up spending) having 3 high picks roll forward puts extreme pressure on your budget because you now have to convince ownership to significantly increase the budget JUST to go slot with every pick!  Rolling forward picks is acceptable if you're going to draft another talent like Paxton, Eliop, and Barrett again with those picks...but that simply wont be the case because 

You HAVE to sign those picks because you dont get compensated for them again if you fail to sign them.   That means that the likelihood of drafting guys that may not sign (ie: Paxton, Barrett) is pretty much out of the question.  That right there means that the talent level is likely going to drop with these compensation picks compared to the guys we failed to sign this year, because we will be hard pressed to draft guys that will 100% sign, and those guys are typically going to be less talented than a guy like Paxton who has Top 15 type talent (thus why he was asking for well above-slot to sign).


Its not that hard to comprehend.


metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#205149) #
Metafour, are you sure about that?  If that's the case then the system is still monumentally flawed


Yes I'm 100% sure, and I fail to see how it is flawed.  You get one mulligan for drafting someone you couldn't sign, after that the MLB wants you to learn your lesson and stick to their recommended system.
Blue in SK - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#205150) #

Does anyone know or have read if additional budget will be added to sign the three compensatory picks? Usually, budgets don't roll for over so allocations will have to be made for 3 additional picks.

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#205151) #
I personally wouldn't assign a grade to the draft at this point. Jenkins might very well be a solid major league starter in 2012 and Marisnick a solid major league centerfielder by 2013 or 2014.  I am certainly not counting on that, but if it happens, the draft would be a success despite the confused mess of a plan.  As Mendelson Joe once said, it aint the schmaltz, it's the results.

Ducey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#205152) #

The easiest way to deal with the fact that the Compensatory picks don't roll over is simple.

The Jays 2010 picks for rounds 1-3 will roll over.  This would include the now 11th overall pick.  If the Jays keep losing, it will be higher.  The Jays can be more speculative with these picks.

If they get picks for some of their freeagents these would roll over too.

With the Compensatory picks, they can go with College guys - maybe someone like Hill, Romero, Cecil, Zep, etc?  Its not so bad.

In fact, the best strategy would be to have some balance between speculative high upside guys and more projectable college guys.

I am surprised that noone has twigged to real issue here.  While the Jays finally broke with their tradition and went with some highschool arms, they still don't value them enough to overpay for them.  They are not likely to take any highschool pitchers again.

Mike D - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#205154) #

And they would have more negotiating leverage if they simply met each and every player’s demands?

Exactly.  Each of TJ Caino's posts are sensible and worth reading.  Thomas, I really think you went over the top with your reasoning here, which I can't ever recall you doing in any of your previous articles.

If the Unsigned Three's asking prices were as "obvious" as everyone surmises, and the team couldn't come close to these "obvious" prices, then by what conceivable rationale did the team draft the Unsigned Three?  Isn't it more likely that Anthopoulos was telling the truth, that they targeted several players they knew would be "tough signs" and hoped for the best, knowing they had a cushion of rolling the picks over?  Isn't a rational scenario more likely than a totally irrational one?

But hey, who am I to argue with people who have never seen any of the Unsigned Three pitch and have literally no information about the negotiations and why they foundered?  Frankly, it's pathetic.

 

John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#205155) #
An assortment of questions do arise from this...
  1. What is the probability of a top 100 pick being a solid ML'er?  Are these guys worth what they were asking in other words
  2. Did these 3 show injury issues when looked at to the degree you can after drafting that you might not be able to before drafting?
  3. Was the Jays plan to draft a batch of guys who were quality and plan to sign just a couple and accepting the others will just become picks for next year?
#3 is the one I am starting to wonder about.  The draft is viewed as a crapshoot for a reason - baseball players are not as projectable from high school/college as they are in any other major sport.  Perhaps with the high number of early picks the Jays just decided to take a batch of quality and keep whoever would sign first while saving the other picks for next years lottery.  Not a perfect system, but if you have a limited budget maybe it is a logical one.

#2 we'll never know for certain, although these guys careers from here on out will tell the tale I'm sure.

#1 we can check...  Going back to the Ash era up to today... pick in top 100 and how many succeeded to some degree (500+ AB's or 200+ IP for sake of argument).  I'm ignoring if they signed or not as B-R doesn't show that and it doesn't really matter for this analysis (were they worth signing). 7 Picks: 2 times: total of 2 'successes' from the first wave (Koch the only one to really impress) and likely one success from the 2nd with others possible still.
6 Picks: not recently
5 Picks: 2 times: 1 success per time this happened with a couple maybe added later on
4 Picks: This year - no clue how it will go in the future (some will take a very long time to know)

In the Ash era (7 years with lots of 'signable' picks including Wells and Rios) we had 23 top 100 picks with 9 successes or 39%
In the first 3 JP era years we have had 11 picks with 5 successes or 45% (odds are no more than 1more will make it if that)
The 2nd 3 years for JP we have 10 picks with 3 likely to be successes by mid-2010, others too far away/too young to know for certain.
The 3rd 3 years for JP will will have 7+ picks (2 more for certain, plus their own pick(s) for 2010 if kept, plus any for free agents lost)
John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#205156) #
Doh, forgot to add the conclusion.

Basically, given the Jays history it appears to be just under 50-50 that a top 100 pick will be a success.  Given that you factor in how much you save during the first 3 seasons in the majors for the player and that should be your max bonus.  Given what players are worth today a bonus of up to $5 million is not out of line at all for a top 100 pick.  So going cheap and refusing to get up to $2 million is a major mistake imo.


John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#205157) #
Hmm... should add in what happens for the overall market too.  Again, I ignore if they signed or not (thus Mark Prior is in two different years).
Round 1 success by year (500 AB/200 IP)
2002: 41 picks, 10 hitters & 8 pitchers = 43.9%
2001: 44 picks, 10 hitters & 8 pitchers = 40.9%
2000: 40 picks, 5 hitters & 4 pitchers with a couple more possible = 22.5%
1999: 51 picks, 6 hitters & 12 pitchers = 35%
1998: 43 picks, 11 hitters & 10 pitchers = 48.8%
1997: 52 picks, 9 hitters & 7 pitchers = 30.8%

Interesting eh?  So 2000 was a bad year, 1998 a good one for first rounders.  Still, under 50% success rate using a very weak criteria for 'success'.
John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#205158) #
2003: 37 rounds, 14 hitters so far with a 15th on edge (13 AB's shy), 4 pitchers with a 5th under 2 IP away = 48.6% no matter what, 54.1% within a few days.  Now that was a good year (Hill has the most AB's)
2004: 41 rounds, 3 hitters (4th within 100 AB's), 7 pitchers (plus Phil Hughes among others) = 24.4% so far
2005: 48 rounds, 8 hitters, 5 pitchers (plus Romero among others) = 27.1% so far

Don't see any point in going further.  2003 was loaded though eh?

metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#205159) #
If the Unsigned Three's asking prices were as "obvious" as everyone surmises, and the team couldn't come close to these "obvious" prices, then by what conceivable rationale did the team draft the Unsigned Three?

Uhm, thats the big question mark here that makes very little sense.

Look guys, I'm going to put this bluntly...you can believe whatever you want to believe, but the only LOGICAL explanation at this point is simple: Rogers pulled the rug out from underneath us.  This wasn't a case of us deciding to not meet the demands of these kids, they didn't get signed because the budget we thought we had was slashed and we were out of money.  Everything that has taken place the past month or so has pointed to this, and everything that happened on signing deadline day points to this as well (look at the timing of the Marisnick signing).  We knew our draft budget was cut and the strategy was to use our reduced money to fill the most needs as possible.

When the draft started on June 9th we were 7 games over .500 and still very much in the race, things were looking good which is why we had an aggressive draft as was promised.  After that we began to plummet and attendance was pathetic.  With Ted Rogers gone no one knows what the plan is for Rogers now, its definitely not out of the ordinary to believe that they're pretty much done with us for at least the present future if not for good (ie: they're planning on selling the team).  Everything that has transpired over the past month has pointed to this being the answer...no one wants to believe it but come on, put the picture together.  The early winning helped tide Rogers over, but once we fell to reality it appears that they have decided to go in a different direction.  Management knows whats happening, everything they've done points to one thing (mass payroll cutting) yet their words/explanations point to something totally different (we're competing, everything is fine?).
Forkball - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#205160) #
Given that you factor in how much you save during the first 3 seasons in the majors for the player and that should be your max bonus.

There's also savings with the arbitration years, and all of that should be discounted by a certain amount for potential failure.

But basically any player that makes the majors is going to pay for their bonus easily.  Romero's covered his $2something million bonus just with his 20 starts this year.  And now the Jays have 5 years of savings out of Romero.
TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#205161) #
Before reading the replies let me just get a direct reply to the OP out.

I think this was bad, I don't intend anything I say to suggest it wasn't bad BUT

i do think far too much is being read into it.

We had three guys one of which most all of us assumed up front probably wouldn't sign. Of the other two, the report (from Wilner) was that they thought they had Barnett but some late issue wrecked it - we'll know more when/if we find out what the issue was.

that leaves Eliopolous which, to me, is kind of the one that is most frusterating not because he was the most desierable of the three but because his was the most odd case. The report was he turned down over half a million...I've seen no report on what he was asking. KLaw ways "a few hundred thousand" difference but I assume we might get more info later.

On the one hand, I see the point about escelating the requests of all future picks, and on the other hand, I sympathize deeply with the argument that if you can land a guy for half of what you are wasting on Millar, why would you not?

So, ultimately, I excuse them on Paxton since I was never optimistic and taking that chance is part of the risk of the "best player" stratagy. I'm willing to defer judgement on Barnett until I see why a presumed deal went south (injury maybe?) but I fault them for Eliopolus unless his demand was something nuts like 2 or 3 million.

All that said, I say too much is being made of it because ANY bad thing can happen once totally out of left field. The Jays don't have a history of doing things like this and one instance doesn't constitute a pattarn. I think that it is silly to (a) combine the Rios matter and the draft in one catagory as if they are the same sort of decision; and (b) to extrapolate that because they failed to sign three this year we can look forward to many unsigned players next year and beyond.

That's not logical or rational thinking on either point.

does this suck? Oh hell yeah?

does this mean ANYTHING about how many players will or won't sign next year? Nope. If anything, it might mean that they learn from this experience (which was a brand new draft philosophy for them so maybe they just simply didn't anticipate how hard it would be to execute) and are more agressive next year.

in fact, if I were going to - illogically - extrapolate what this turn of events means for next year, that's EXACTLY what i would surmise.

I think if we can make assumptions we can't prove here, it's JUST as valid to assume that - never having drafted hard signs before, that the people involved simply didn't realze going in how tough it would be and they let the process get the best of them. I see no reason to assume they'd make that mistake again.


Jdog - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#205162) #
The whole point, about the Jays knowing what these draftees were asking for and therefore should not have drafted them if they weren't prepared to sign them, is a bunch of garbage.

Yeah they probably knew what they were asking, but we also know that Boras clients(Paxton) will set there asking price very high(see...Strasburg(50 mil), ManRam..etc.) So they probably drafted Paxton knowing that they were not comfortable with what he was wanting but thinking there was a good chance that he wouldn't turn down what they were willing to offer. He did....boo-hoo thats why it was considered a tough sign.
TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#205163) #
"Everyone knows that..."

The one most certain thing that cvan be said is when someone says "everyone knows" they ALWAYS go on to say something that not everyone agrees is true.

In fact, I like all of those ideas.  However, there is one common thread in all of those and that is cost cutting. 

Ah, but is it?

Could not one JUST as easily say "the one common thread in all of those is making smarter use of your resources"?

After all, by your own testimony, each of these moves in isolation was the right move. So why should we conclude that the smart use of your resources (in talent and money) is "cost cutting" and not simply what it appears to be - making smart moves because they are smart moves?

After all, is there not volumes of words in print bemoaning the money wasted on Ryan, Wells, Thomas, et al? IF on the one hand we are going to complain bitterly about dumb moves and money wasted, why then should we be so harsh when smart moves save money?

Seems like the two complaints would contradict each other.

Again, events might prove either position wrong. We might see a fire sale this winter where the Jays take (pennies on the dollar) in terms of talent recieved...or we might see a $120 million payroll spent wisely on new acquisitions....or something in between.

But nevertheless, for NOW, it is every bit as logical to suggest that if indeed you approve of all those moves individually, you should still approve of them in the aggregate - not to suspect "cost cutting" but to congratulate the team on, for a change, being smart with their money.

China fan - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#205164) #

I think that it is silly to (a) combine the Rios matter and the draft in one catagory as if they are the same sort of decision....

Okay, but what if you combine the following incidents: the dumping of Rios to save tens of millions of dollars; the trade of Rolen for a $10-million cost savings; the near-trade of Halladay which would have saved $20-million; the refusal to sign any free agents in the last offseason;  the preference for cheap acquisitions such as Millar, Inglett, Bautista; and the unprecedented lack of money for three top draft choices.   Can we still say that this is a series of unrelated coincidental happenings with no pattern to it?  At some point, if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, etc, we can probably reach the tentative conclusion that it likely is a duck.

metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#205165) #
At some point, if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, etc, we can probably reach the tentative conclusion that it likely is a duck.


Ding Ding Ding.

Does anyone really seriously believe that we just left 3 of our top 4 picks unsigned and our budget is going to spike up to $120M next year? That is complete horse-****.  If the budget was rising these kids would have been wearing Blue Jays hats.  What people fail to remember is that we pay scouts to travel all over the country to scout these kids.  They put in large amounts of time and work.  You dont draft these kids that high and then "decide the price isn't right" for ALL 3 OF THEM when your budget is supposedly rising significantly.

Rogers didn't want to shell out the money...probably because this team is moving backwards and Rogers looks like it wants out.
jmoney - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#205166) #
I get stuck watching a lot of business TV. (Stupid co-worker) They don't talk much about the Telco's or Cable providers much, but when it comes to cable, these companies tend to become quite chaotic when the individual that built them passes on. I suspect the Rogers boardroom meetings are a bit chaotic these days. At least when it comes to their side businesses. (Bluejays etc.)
TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#205167) #

Metafour, are you sure about that?  If that's the case then the system is still monumentally flawed and we aren't "ahead of the curve".  Personally I was sorta hoping we'd keep rolling picks over until the CBA expires, then use the extra picks along with the new "cap" that's been proposed to load up on talent.

Now I'm even more depressed.  That said, we can still use the comp picks on signable talent and our regular picks on "high risk" talent.


He's right that picks don't roll indefinately, but that doesn't mean you have to be depressed about next year.

No team is EVER going to draft only hard-to-sign players. Sometimes the best guy available is a guy you know you can sing.

The only implication here is that the Jays simply have to be aware that if they are going to take a HTS player, they do it with their current pick and if they are going to take an easy-sign, they do it with the rollover pick.

I'm sure there will be an occasion where the guy the have to skip with the rollover pick doesn't make it to the next new pick, but I should think that won't happen very often.

I'm more incolied to think this situation was simply a fluke. I'd be somewhat more depressed about it if it comes out definitively that all three guys were missed ONLY because of hard-lining the money we'd spend and we lost them for the sake of a collective million dollars or less. but the vibe coming out, particularly about Barrnett, seems to be that there were other circumstances in play.


China fan - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#205168) #

After all, is there not volumes of words in print bemoaning the money wasted on Ryan, Wells, Thomas, et al? IF on the one hand we are going to complain bitterly about dumb moves and money wasted, why then should we be so harsh when smart moves save money?

This is setting up a straw man to attack.  Very few people are saying that the Jays should NEVER have attemped to sign free agents such as Ryan, Burnett and Thomas.  Do you really think that the majority of Toronto fans would call the Jays "dumb" for pursuing free agents?  Sorry, most of us were happy that the Jays jumped into the free agent market and tried to sign some good players.  And indeed Ryan and Burnett and Thomas each had at least one excellent season for the Jays.  These were not "dumb" signings -- these were acquisitions that helped the Jays for a year or two.  Perhaps someone with a crystal ball could have picked the perfect ultra-healthy free agent for the Jays to sign instead of Ryan and Burnett and Thomas, but nobody has a crystal ball -- these signings were an honest attempt to improve the Jays and actually did succeed for a season or two.  Nobody knew for certain that those three would be injury-plagued.  (The Wells contract is a separate issue and deserves its own retrospective debate.)

The other side of your argument is that it was "smart" for the Jays to "save money" by getting rid of Rolen and Rios and by attempting to get rid of Halladay and by failing to sign three top draft picks.  Any of these individual moves can be defended in isolation, but the combination of all of them has got to be seen as negative -- unless by some miracle the Jays suddenly spend $30-million on free agents before the 2010 season, which is extremely unlikely, not least because it will be difficult to find three or four top-flight free agents in 2010 who are willing to move to Canada rather than more lucrative US markets.  One or two free agents, max, is the most the Jays could possibly hope for, even if the owners suddenly decide to spend a lot of money, which is rather unlikely based on recent evidence.

 

John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#205169) #
Of course the optimist in me wonders if some of that cash (assuming some is there) if not spent on free agents could be used on a big bonus for Halladay so his contract is lower for future years (ie: a $20 million bonus in 2010 then $15 a year for 2011-2014 to free up cash those years).

I can dream.

metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#205170) #
I alluded to the timing of Marisnick's signing earlier and I'll explain what I meant there now:


Marisnick's significant bonus of 1st round money was announced at 5:28pm by BA and a bit before that by Law.  Marisnick was the FINAL pick of the unsigned guys in the top 3 rounds.  Now, if you are still actively trying to get guys like Barrett and Eliopolous signed then it makes absolutely NO sense to let Marisnick's extremely over-slot signing out of the bag a full 6.5 hours BEFORE the signing deadline.  Why? Because Barrett, who was picked before Marisnick and has the same bargaining power (HS kid who wasn't going to sign for slot) can now use Marisnick's $1 million price tag as a basis for HIS demands.  The same can be said for Eliopolous, although his demands were likely never as high as Marisnick's and Barrett's, letting Marisnick's singing out that early could have theoretically impacted his demands as well.  Paxton isn't really affected by this because his demands were always going to be over $1 million anyway.

The point is this: We let Marisnick out of the bag that early because we KNEW we had no more money to sign anyone else.  There is no way in hell his signing is released if we were in serious negotiations with the guys drafted ahead of him, because that just completely kills your negotiating power.

Our budget was cut and we had to make a choice on HOW we were going to allocate our money.  Jenkins is a no brainer, after that Marisnick and Hobson become significantly more important than guys like Barrett, Eliop, and Paxton because:

1) Our organizational weakness at this point is positional prospects
2) With Jenkins signed we already got our top pitcher, Marisnick was our top hitter drafted and if the choice comes down to Marisnick or Barrett the obvious choice is Marisnick because we already have Jenkins, and our system needs hitting more than pitching.

To make up for passing on guys like Barrett and Eliopolous what did we do? We signed significantly cheaper over-slots in Webb and Hutchison who were both pitchers.

At the end of the day we used our reduced money to sign the two top hitters (Marisnick and Hobson) and the two lower-grade pitchers (Webb and Hutchison), which makes the most sense because we already had Jenkins signed and we need hitting more than pitching in the minors.

CASE CLOSED.

This also goes along with what Keith Law said about us making very little attempt to sign Barrett (it was either/or with him and Marisnick) as well as his talk the last few days that he didn't think we would sign Elioplous (which made very little sense but turned out to be true).

Timbuck2 - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#205171) #
First -  has anyone stopped to consider that maybe the Jays management see the 2010 Draft Class as having better overall talent than this years?  I know if I were the Jays and my scouting department told me the talent pool would be better next year I would be willing to let some high draft picks go unsigned in the hopes that I could draft the same or better the next year.   Maybe the 2010 draft talent is looking like the 2003 draft talent.

Secondly I work in an industry where "Lean thinking" is preached at every opportunity.  I don't see these moves (Rios, Rolen BJ) as payroll slashing but as the organizations desire to become more financially flexible for the future - which is pretty much what they themselves said.  They can see right in front of them how much of the payroll Well and Halladay command and are determined to fix it.  They want to start doing the same or more with less.  So is every other industry in North America right now.  Baseball is a business as even Rios found out recently.

Third - JP's comment that started the whole Halladay media scrum was 'Of course we'll listen to offers but we'll have to be blown away to accept'.  That simple, typically JP comment (He's said the same about other players in the past)  suddenly had every major new media drooling over this major story.  The whole "we almost traded Halladay" thing, in my mind, was more a function of the baseball media needing that BIG STORY to keep everyone reading.
Jim - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#205172) #

No team is EVER going to draft only hard-to-sign players.

Then why would we ever take Alex  A. at face value when he says they are going to always take the best player available?  The Yankees couldn't use that strategy.  Why would the Blue Jays communicate publically that is their strategy when anyone with a pulse can see that it can't be?

rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#205173) #
6 years from now, pick X from 2009 will not be significantly different than pick X from 2010.

While ya, it would be great to add the talent we drafted RIGHT NOW. Perhaps in consideration of new information, it was decided by management that in the long run, we are better off rolling the dice with a new pick next year than over-extend ourselves for the individuals in question.


Also, i think some people are over simplifying the negotiation process. What an agent says his client will sign for two days before the draft will not always be what that players actually signs for. > Younger players being more likely to wait a year to get their asking price. > Teams who stand to be compensated for the pick also being more likely to wait a year.


Further, signable picks don't necessarily need to come as low ceiling guys with 9 years of post secondary education under their belts (We'll call this hypothetical player Dr. Josh Towers). -- would Travis and Cecil be considered unlikely signs? Would we feel comfortable if the Jays signed such players with rolled over picks? (ie, pick recieved as compensation that we would not be further compensated for if a deal was not reached)
TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#205174) #
Given that you factor in how much you save during the first 3 seasons in the majors for the player and that should be your max bonus.  Given what players are worth today a bonus of up to $5 million is not out of line at all for a top 100 pick.  So going cheap and refusing to get up to $2 million is a major mistake imo.

I think that a higher order examination might mitigate that some. it's obviously too much work to do BUT the criteria for "success" is just being here. For an obvious example - Russ Adams counts as a "success" but I'll bet that if the measure was win shares (for instance) instyead of at bats that the valuation might change some.

Jim - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#205175) #

There was no strategy here, they took players thinking they would be able to spend money over-slot and that changed. 

There is no positive spin here.  This is an embarassment to the front office and the entire organization and puts them even farther behind the Yankees and Red Sox.

metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#205177) #
There was no strategy here, they took players thinking they would be able to spend money over-slot and that changed.


+1
rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#205178) #

At some point, if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, etc, we can probably reach the tentative conclusion that it likely is a duck.


Platypuses quack right?

Most discussion since the signing deadline has been between individuals who are willing/determined to conclude that this team has has its financial rug pulled form underneath of them  (or at very least, management is incompetent) and posters who at least appreciate the possibility of that not being the only rational interpretation of events.

This:

There was no strategy here, they took players thinking they would be able to spend money over-slot and that changed. 

There is no positive spin here.  This is an embarassment to the front office and the entire organization and puts them even farther behind the Yankees and Red Sox.

has not been determined. There is no bucket. There will be no foul shots awarded at this time.

Especially given indication that they were willing to go over slot in many cases. The degree to which they were willing to go over slot for these particular players is the matter of debate. (With further suggestions that in light of new information, they may have altered their valuations of particular players.)

This is possible: I wouldn't bet my unborn children on it, but I wouldn't shut the barn door just yet.

subculture - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#205179) #

I gotta agree, this failure to sign 3 of their top picks reduces my desire to follow this team going forward than any of the other moves/would-be moves... Rios, Rolen, even Halladay potentially traded didn't impact this teams future success as dramatically as not signing these picks IMO.

If the money to sign them was still there, I'm thinking we could have sent it along with Rios for at least one good prospect from Chicago. 

As many folks have said, a team to remain viable needs either Wins or Hope.  Hope just hopped on the Gardiner a few months after Wins already left.

Jim - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#205180) #

This is possible: I wouldn't bet my unborn children on it, but I wouldn't shut the barn door just yet.

Sure, it's possible that it's just so happened that they decided to not go over slot on three players in this draft.  It just so happens it occured at the same time that Rolen 'asked for a trade', that Rios was allowed to leave on waivers (remember JP told us that players are put on waivers all the time and it was nothing!) and Halladay was shopped.

None of the defenses of the Blue Jays pass even the simpliest smell test.  At this point Rogers could lock the doors tonight in the 4th inning with the fans still inside and set the SkyDome on fire and a handful of people here would find an angle to try and defend them.  It was against the Red Sox!  It trapped almost as many Sox fans as Jays fans!  Rodgers did it to convince Godfrey to stay, he can't walk away now!

TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#205181) #
Okay, but what if you combine the following incidents: the dumping of Rios to save tens of millions of dollars;

Considered a sound baseball move but pretty much EVERY commentator. Had, apparently, as much to do with Rios' attitude and work ethic as money.

the trade of Rolen for a $10-million cost savings;

Again, not a single observer has said this was anything but a brilliant move by the Jays. Not only did they get excellent return on the deal, but they traded a player that almost 100% of Bauxites (yours truely excepted) would have said one year ago would never have ANY value and was a complete sunk cost.

 the near-trade of Halladay which would have saved $20-million;

Listening to offers in the hopes someone would wildly overpay isn't a "near trade" and if they had gotten an astounding return it would have been a baseball move - not a money move - if it had been a money move they would have closed the deal with the Phillies.

the refusal to sign any free agents in the last offseason; 

Perhaps noteable in this context.

the preference for cheap acquisitions such as Millar, Inglett, Bautista;

This is new?

and the unprecedented lack of money for three top draft choices.

It is an unproven assumption that they LACKED the money simply because they chose not to spend it.

IMO, that's a conflagulation of almost entierly unrelated moves each with it's own individual rational. All together they COULD imply cost cutting, but that's not the only plausable or logical conclusion.

I would suggest that IF indeed the team is so pressed for cash that it COULD not sign those picks, doc would already be gone...and the Jays would have eaten a few million if necessary to find a taker on Overbay, and dealt Barajas and Frasor and Camp in July as well, even if the return wasn't exactly what they would have hoped.

the fact that so many of such players are still blue jays is, IMO, a huge counterpoint to the notion that money is driving every decesion and that they jays are lying about spending even as much, let alone more, next season.

TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#205182) #
These were not "dumb" signings -- these were acquisitions that helped the Jays for a year or two.  Perhaps someone with a crystal ball could have picked the perfect ultra-healthy free agent for the Jays to sign instead of Ryan and Burnett and Thomas, but nobody has a crystal ball

You apparently don't visit the same sites I do because I see no shortage of hindsight criticism of these and other moves. I'm not saying such criticism is logical - just saying it is out there in vast abundance.

which is extremely unlikely, not least because it will be difficult to find three or four top-flight free agents in 2010 who are willing to move to Canada rather than more lucrative US markets.

First, you assume here that other markets WILL be more lucrative for the player in question - maybe so, maybe not. Secondly, at a time when a lot of teams ARE cutting costs, the opportunity exists for a team that's not to capitalize buy paying a bargain price for a more expensive player that another team wants to be rid of. Free agency is not the only means of acquiring talent.

China fan - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#205183) #
The fact that the Jays didn't dump Overbay and Halladay and Frasor (etc) in July may have been motivated by the fact that the mid-season cost savings aren't that huge.  Let's wait and see who gets traded or dumped in the offseason.  If they retain Halladay, Scutaro, Overbay and Frasor for the 2010 season, it might be true that the owners are not primarily motivated by cutting costs.  But I wouldn't bet on that scenario.  Halladay is almost certainly gone.  Scutaro is 50-50 at best.  Others too will likely be chopped.  But, we can wait until the offseason to settle this argument.
TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#205184) #
CASE CLOSED.

Oh, well then - I suppose we can just close this thread and move on to the pressing discussion of other maters since you've settled it for us.

or...well...maybe...nah, that'd be crazy! To just go on talking about it since it's settled? What fool would do that?

;)

"No team is EVER going to draft only hard-to-sign players"

Then why would we ever take Alex  A. at face value when he says they are going to always take the best player available?

Um...because the best player on the board isn';t always the guy who's hardest to sign?

Mike D - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#205185) #

But, we can wait until the offseason to settle this argument.

Fair enough, and yes, let's please do so.

Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#205186) #
Exactly. Each of TJ Caino's posts are sensible and worth reading. Thomas, I really think you went over the top with your reasoning here, which I can't ever recall you doing in any of your previous articles.

Mike, I think you read the headline of the article and let that unduly influence your perception of what I said in the article. As the article said, "at this point in time" and "the team will have a chance to correct [this year's draft] in 2010." Much of the article was spent saying that no team has ever had a draft like Toronto's this year and I see no evidence to the contrary. This year's draft isn't perfectly analogous to the 2002 draft, but I don't see how this is anything but a red flag.

I am perfectly willing to admit that the final chapter on this year's draft hasn't been written. I will admit that the title and perhaps part of the article is probably the result of a frustrating couple of months for the Jays and is perhaps over-the-top. However, in passing a judgement based on what I know now, I don't see any way to see this draft in a positive light.

If the Unsigned Three's asking prices were as "obvious" as everyone surmises, and the team couldn't come close to these "obvious" prices, then by what conceivable rationale did the team draft the Unsigned Three? Isn't it more likely that Anthopoulos was telling the truth, that they targeted several players they knew would be "tough signs" and hoped for the best, knowing they had a cushion of rolling the picks over? Isn't a rational scenario more likely than a totally irrational one?

That's a perfectly realistic scenario, but it still leaves several questions unanswered and I don't see particularly positive signs for those answers. If the Jays gambled and lost, cognisant they could roll the picks over, is the team going to be able to spend the money they didn't spend on the Unsigned Three on the draft next year? AFAIK, payroll savings are never rolled over, so why should we expect draft savings to be, particularly given the ownership situation. Secondly, I can understand gambling and losing once or maybe twice, but gambling and losing on three picks is still unprecedented and doesn't reflect positively on the front office. Either they badly misread the demands for all three players, badly misread the market for the players (in that they expected them to lower their demands) or scouted them poorly (if they were unwilling to meet the prices after a poor workout, as I have heard suggested at least once with regards to Eliopoulos).

Either way, they have less leverage going into next year's draft and are going to have a bunch of picks and likely going to have to make some signability picks to get them all signed. This happens all the time when teams have a bunch of high round picks and there's no reason to expect the team to draft six Paxtons next year. I'll readily admit if I'm wrong, but I expect to see a couple of Magnuson-type picks with these makeup picks.

But hey, who am I to argue with people who have never seen any of the Unsigned Three pitch and have literally no information about the negotiations and why they foundered? Frankly, it's pathetic.

I have no idea why the negotiations failed. I admitted that much in the article. However, for the past few months (and going back further) it's been very debatable if this front office has a long-term plan for the success of the franchise. Fans have seen several decisions made that are either questionable from a talent/competitiveness standpoint or seem influenced by budgetary concerns. This draft is another.

rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#205187) #

Sure, it's possible that it's just so happened that they decided to not go over slot on three players in this draft.

But they were willing to go over slot. As I mentioned, the degree to which they were willing to go over slot would be the issue.

It also "just so happened" to occur in the first draft ever in which the team was compensated for not signing top picks.

 

(which represents a drastic change!!)

 

 

 

Jevant - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#205188) #
It is indeed strange.  I do not understand how anyone has been able to spin this as a positive thing, yet people try.

Y'all do realize it's okay to be a Jays fan and yet be critical of the organization, right?

John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#205189) #
Oh, true enough WillRain - if you go by a stronger criteria for 'success' then the bonus money should be lower.  The 500 AB or 200 IP measure is pretty much just asking for one season out of a player (or equivalent) and assumes it is at or above replacement level.

I was quite surprised by how the regular draft did though vs the Jays for this measure of at least mild success with the regular draft having the advantage of being based on the top 40-50 picks vs the top 100.
2005: Jays 0% (soon 50%) vs overall 27%
2004: Jays 20% vs overall 24%
2003: Jays 67% vs overall 49%
2002: Jays 67% vs overall 44%
2001: Jays 33% vs overall 41%
2000: Jays 20% vs overall 23%
1999: Jays 50% vs overall 35%
1998: Jays 100% vs overall 49%
1997: Jays 50% vs overall 31%
Total: Jays 38% vs overall 35% (JP era is 38% as is Ash's)

Given the Jays were doing the cheap route a lot of that time (if not all of it) it is impressive.  Just 3 picks over that stretch in the top 10 (who should be solid locks) - Vernon Wells (#5), Felipe Lopez (#8) and Rickey Romero (#6) and most of the time the Jays were in the teens for picks.  Note: Koch was a #4 pick, then you have to go back to '83 for a top 10 in Matt Stark (#9), 1982 for Augie Schmidt (#2 overall and taken a few picks before Dwight Gooden), 1981 for Matt Williams (#5 and not the third baseman), 1980 for Garry Harris (#2 in a weak year), 1979 for Jay Schroeder (#3, before Andy Van Slyke & Tim Wallach), and 1978 for Lloyd Moseby (#2).  Geez was Gillick terrible at the first round of the draft - 6 top 10 picks and just one was any good.  Lucky the net wasn't around then!


TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#205190) #
Let's wait and see who gets traded or dumped [or signed] in the offseason...
But, we can wait until the offseason to settle this argument.


BINGO!!!!!

That's EXACTLY what the less fatalistic of us here have been saying!!!!

Neither you nor I nor meta nor Jim nor TJ has any CERTAIN idea what will happen in the next six months.

Yet ONE side of this debate - and only one - is a veritual fount of certainty in the comments posted in the last two days.

Certainty is exactly the ONE thing none of us can possibly have right now.

We can certainly discuss it again long about March 1, 2010
TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#205191) #
then you have to go back to '83 for a top 10 in Matt Stark (#9), 1982 for Augie Schmidt (#2 overall and taken a few picks before Dwight Gooden)

They left Clemens on the board to take Stark too...

John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#205192) #
Actually, this is the 2nd draft where you get compensated for not signing top picks.  The Nationals got the 10th overall pick due to not signing their 1st round pick last year, and the Yankees got the 29th pick the same way.  Both signed btw.
Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#205193) #
It also "just so happened" to occur in the first draft ever in which the team was compensated for not signing top picks.

This occurred in the 2008 draft, as well.

TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#205194) #
Y'all do realize it's okay to be a Jays fan and yet be critical of the organization, right?

Ya think?

It's also possible to be a fan and not knee-jerk a critical spin on EVERY move (not speaking of you specifically here but such do exist among Jays fans)

I'm perfectly willing to stand by my previous comments as having a measure of criticism for the management of this team.

I could probably give you an easy dozen things I'd criticize since the end of last season.

Part of the problem for the doom and gloom crowd is that they can't be pleased with ANY move. they are every bit as unrealistic as a pollyanna who never has a bad thing to say.

But I challange you to find a regular poster at the Box who has never criticized the Jays, or JP.

In the absence of such an example, your post has no meaning.

John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#205196) #
What a scary thought.  The 1985-1993 rotation could've been Stieb/Clemens/Gooden/Key with guys like Alexander, Clancy, Cerutti, David Wells, and whoever else mixed in.  Could you imagine what that would've been like?  Is there any way they wouldn't have won the division every year?  Mix in the near aquisition of Wade Boggs via the Rule 5 draft (Gillick said he almost did one year, then was going to the next when Boston protected him at the last minute) and the 80's could've been even more fun with more WS titles.  Of course, Jimy Williams probably would've screwed it up somehow :)
China fan - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#205197) #

And what if the Jays announce in 2010 that they are cutting their budget again, with the savings to be used the following season to produce a better team in 2011?  Do we always have to postpone our criticism, year after year, just because management claims that "cash is king" and "we have a plan"?  Do we always have to give management the benefit of the doubt?

It's completely predictable that management will ALWAYS find a positive spin for any disastrous move.  No matter what happens, pro-management types will be urging the fans to keep waiting, year after year, to give Rogers the benefit of the doubt, to just wait for the brilliant strategy to unfold.... 

I'm saying that the offseason (after 2009) is the final chance for management to convince us that all of their budget cuts were "smart moves."  After that, no more of this "wait for the plan" naivete from any of us, I hope.

rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#205198) #

Y'all do realize it's okay to be a Jays fan and yet be critical of the organization, right?

Of course. I have been very critical of JP through his tenure as GM.

But when posting on a public forum, it is important to voice reasonable criticisms. Criticisms based on premature conclusions tend not to go over as well.

If certain posters expressed *concerns* about *likely* outcomes, then that would be defensible. But this is a public forum. Kids read this stuff. I don't want our future leaders learning to jump to conclusions.

TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#205199) #
Actually, this is the 2nd draft where you get compensated for not signing top picks.  The Nationals got the 10th overall pick due to not signing their 1st round pick last year, and the Yankees got the 29th pick the same way.  Both signed btw.

Indeed.

I personally think that Beeston likely reversed Godfrey on this matter in light of the change in the System. But that's obviously speculative.

Dewey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#205200) #
Most of us would probably agree that the past can be analyzed, after a fashion; but the future simply cannot.  So all of the time and emotional energy expended on Da Box in the last few days is truly  ludicrous, especially since the consequences so direly predicted haven't even happened!  And the arguments presented for this or that speculative outcome are often stated with annoying certainty, or with proclamations of “logic” being at work.  It's nonsense.  Please, stop using the word “logic” incorrectly:  it doesn't simply mean the scenario that seems most plausible--to you. 

Whoever barked,  CASE CLOSED . . . well sheeit.   Saying something doesn't make it so.  If all you guys argue like this in the real world, I hope you have insurance.

And please use the Preview button.  Example:  “Sometimes the best guy available is a guy you know you can sing.” [I counted 6 mistakes in that one brief post, by the way]  (And I kind of like the idea of signing players based on their ability to sing.  Or is it the signer's ability to sing?)

One of JP's most-cited failings on Da Box is his “mouthing off”?  Yet there seems to be a lot it of right here in River City.
TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#205201) #
What a scary thought.  The 1985-1993 rotation could've been Stieb/Clemens/Gooden/Key with guys like Alexander, Clancy, Cerutti, David Wells, and whoever else mixed in.  Could you imagine what that would've been like?  Is there any way they wouldn't have won the division every year?  Mix in the near aquisition of Wade Boggs via the Rule 5 draft (Gillick said he almost did one year, then was going to the next when Boston protected him at the last minute) and the 80's could've been even more fun with more WS titles.  Of course, Jimy Williams probably would've screwed it up somehow :)

There's a story out there somewhere about the jays coming very close to acquiring ron Guidry the year before he broke out too.

Also, we all know the story about how we should have gotten Randy Johnson the day we had to "settle for" Ricky Henderson because the Seattle GM couldn't be reached.

Timbuck2 - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#205203) #
It's completely predictable that management will ALWAYS find a positive spin for any disastrous move.  No matter what happens, pro-management types will be urging the fans to keep waiting, year after year, to give Rogers the benefit of the doubt, to just wait for the brilliant strategy to unfold....

Of course I (being the optimistic type)  will keep giving Rogers the benefit of the doubt.  What choice do we as fans have?  This isn't a government where we have any say in who runs things.  Rogers will do what Rogers wants - be it sell the team, sink it into oblivion or spend $400 million on payroll.
rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#205204) #

Actually, this is the 2nd draft where you get compensated for not signing top picks.  The Nationals got the 10th overall pick due to not signing their 1st round pick last year, and the Yankees got the 29th pick the same way.  Both signed btw.

I was, ahem, unware of this fact.

Though it remains the first year where we drafted potentially difficult to sign guys - unless I am further mistaken.

 

Mylegacy - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#205205) #
This gives me a headache.

Your baseball loving owner dying and being replaced by "faceless suits" is NOT a recipe for success. Cutting your payroll by 20 odd million smackers is NOT a recipe for success. Not signing three of your four top picks is NOT a recipe for success. Trading your Glove Glove, much improved offensively, 3rd baseman for a younger but clearly inferior guy (and two more pitchers - to join the dozens ) is NOT a recipe for success. Offering to trade "The Franchise" is NOT a recipe for success. Knowing you can't (won't) sign your All Star QUALITY SS for next year - knowing you have no realistic replacement - is NOT a recipe for success. Giving away Rios for payroll relief - knowing you now have NO backup at CF - is NOT a recipe for success.

What does all this mean? We know that in Saskatchewan you get to "Success" by going past a "Moose Jaw" down a "Swift Current" and stop just short of being a "Leader." We know that in Toronto you get to Success - IF you EVER get to Success - by being patient - very, very patient.

Ironically - beyond human understanding - I'm bullish on 2010. Hill, Lind, Snider, Ruis, Dopriak, Overbay, Wells, Chavez and company are going to be a treat to watch most days.

The cup may only be half full - but a half a cup of Baseball - right here in Hogtown - is worth being a fan of - you took my Expos away - if you want my Jays you'll have to pry them from my dying hands. My ONLY REAL fear is that just might be their plan.

MatO - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#205207) #
The story was that the Jays could have gotten Guidry for opening day starter Bill Singer but Bill Bavasi nixed the deal because Singer was the face of the franchise.  A few years later both Gillick and Beeston threatened to resign because of Bavasi which led to Bavasi's ouster (or as Bavasi said later "I resigned due to illness, they were sick of me and I was sick of them").  I remember the Randy Johnson story as well.
Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#205208) #
I don't want our future leaders learning to jump to conclusions.

I have no objections to this, as long as they use a Jump to Conclusions mat.

John Northey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#205210) #
In many respects the Guidry move might've been the best every for the Jays.  It was proof to ownership (I'm sure) that Gillick & Beeston knew what they were talking about while Bavasi didn't. 

Still, now that dream rotation for '85 on is Stieb, Guidry, Clemens, Gooden, Key.  Wow.  Now, Guidry is the only one that were know the Jays were serious about but still... wow, what a dream that would've been.  Of course, then the past decade would've been all the more painful.

metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#205212) #
But they were willing to go over slot. As I mentioned, the degree to which they were willing to go over slot would be the issue.

They were 'willing' to go over slot because literally everyone left that was unsigned was going to have to be signed over-slot.

Your 2nd point is another huge red flag.  They were willing to go considerably over slot for Marisnick but wouldn't go slightly over-slot for Elioplous? They were willing to give Marisnick that much but weren't willing to do the same for Barrett (an equal prospect)?

Everything points to what I said:

-We had a budget set to spend a lot of money
-Draft rolls around and we draft accordingly (ie: draft with intention of spending money)
-Rogers changes their mind, budget and payroll are cut

Now we're stuck: We have to pick and choose who we are going to sign because theres no way we can sign everyone.  At this point strategy comes into play...which I already explained but I'll do it again since everyone seemed to ignore my Marisnick post (prob. cause it makes too much sense):

Current state of farm system: Weak, but stronger on the pitching side.  Lots of hitting prospects failing to live up to hype
Need: We need everything, but hitters moreso than pitchers.

Priority 1: Sign Jenkins:
He's our #1 pick.  He's a fairly safe prospect.  He's going to sign for essentially slot money.  He is a no brainer, you cant NOT sign him.

Priority 2: Sign Marisnick and Hobson
We signed our #1 pick (a pitcher)...Marisnick is now the biggest priority, we HAVE to sign him because he's our highest draft hitting prospect.  Reduced budget makes it a choice of either Marisnick or Barrett...at which point Marisnick is the obvious, logical choice.  Hobson is signed because he's another hitting prospect, and his demands were probably near half of what Barrett or Eliopolous were asking for.

Priority 3: Spend remaining money
Theres a bit of money left, with two hitters signed it makes sense to spend the remaining cash on piching.  Webb+Hutchison together cost less than what either Eliop or Barrett were asking for, so thats probably why those two were signed instead of just one of the higher-graded pitchers.  Webb/Hutchison may have also been chosen to save a bit of money to make one final push for Paxton.
Ducey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#205213) #

They were willing to give Marisnick that much but weren't willing to do the same for Barrett (an equal prospect)?

As I said above, I think Jays are still concerned about the risks of signing high school arms.  High school hitting prospects may not pan out but at least you don't have to worry as much about them having a career ending injury.  Maybe they are just not willing to pay $1,000,000 to a highschool pitcher?

If you look at it from this perspective, it undermines your budget cut/ Rogers conspiracy. 

And metaphor, saying things over and over again doesn't mean you "win" the argument.  It just means people will stop listening.

Flex - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#205214) #
I think metafour's picture makes sense. Something changed, they identified their priorities.

It ain't the end of the world.
rtcaino - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#205215) #
Meta: that seems largely feasible. I would be very curious to know what was offered and asked. Or more
metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#205217) #
As I said above, I think Jays are still concerned about the risks of signing high school arms.  High school hitting prospects may not pan out but at least you don't have to worry as much about them having a career ending injury.  Maybe they are just not willing to pay $1,000,000 to a highschool pitcher?

No offense, but these counter arguments are ridiculous.

So you want me to believe that they drafted HS pitchers in the 2nd and 3rd round, and then chickened out and decided NOT to sign them?  Use some common sense, if they were still worried about HS arms they wouldn't have freaking blown 2 of our top 5 picks on those such players.  The $1 million on Barrett is a pure guess by the way, I think he would have signed for $800-900k.

All of these arguments appear to be under the assumption that the people doing the drafting/signing are idiots or something.  No, we DIDN'T not sign these picks on purpose because they like next year's draft better (are you kidding me?).  We also didn't draft these kids and then get overwhelmed by their asking price.  Someone mentioned earlier that they thought that we didn't sign Paxton because we thought we could bargain him down to our price...are you kidding me? Everyone in baseball knows that Boras NEVER settles.  He asks for the moon, the drafting team offers the floor, and 98% of the time they settle somewhere in between.  There is no way in hell we blew a supplemental 1st round pick because we 'thought' we could get Paxton to settle on our "slightly above slot offer."
metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#205218) #
First -  has anyone stopped to consider that maybe the Jays management see the 2010 Draft Class as having better overall talent than this years?  I know if I were the Jays and my scouting department told me the talent pool would be better next year I would be willing to let some high draft picks go unsigned in the hopes that I could draft the same or better the next year.


Paxton is going to enter the 2010 draft as a Top 10-15 talent, so the idea of us not signing him because we think we can find someone better next year is utterly ridiculous.
Wayne H. - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#205219) #
I admit fully to being a glass half full guy. In fact, I am more of a glass three quarters full guy regarding the Jays and their moves.

I have a different take on the draft situation than my usual optimism, however.

Prior to the draft, the Jays were prepared to select the best talent available, and pay for it. The Jays were in first place, and Paul Beeston shrugged off the slot restrictions, and supposedly $5 million dollar currency equalization. That money was important to Paul Godfrey, hence his insistence on not breaking slot. JP announced that the gloves were finally off. That not going over slot restraint was pointed out by Bart Givens on his blog, where he pointed out that the Jays draft board was short over 100 players who wanted over slot. The idea that the best player available could ever be drafted without breaking slot was proven false by that revelation.

The Jays scouts, and in my opinion, the very underrated Scouting Director Jon Lalonde, selected who they believed were the best players available at that point in the draft. That included over slot players, who they had obviously been assured that they could and would sign. The Jays always had a reputation for judging signability so no one really expected the draft selections to not sign. The draft, on draft day looked like a solid one. All commentators rated it as a solid to strong draft. That was then.

The drafted players were not signed beyond the early usual college players. Even first rounder Chad Jenkins took a long time, and lost development time, over apparently only $9000. That seemed strange, but things happen in negotiations, and the other hard signs were seen as going to the last day. That is not unusual, and indeed that was the scenario for most tough to sign players.

The case has been made by some that fiscal budgets are set in corporations for the year. While that is true, the cutting of budgets in mid stream is also true. The Blue Jays case looks exactly like that. In my years of experience working in and with corporations, and talking to executives from the C-level on down, this is not unusual at all. Many executives express dismay privately, but like Paul Beeston, JP, and Alex A, they put a good face on the result publicly. Towing the line is part of the job. I have done it in the past myself, including for policies that I knew were bad ones. That seems to be the case here.

The corporate bean counters at Rogers are used to an industry where their products and services are commodities. Cable TV and cell phones, for example, are really interchangeable in the eyes of the public. Yes, there may be small differences, but overall, one service is much the same as another. In the case of pro sports, the commodity thinking is dead wrong. Sports, like the music industry, publishing industry, and movie industry, is one where the talent is the product. Fans pay to see superior talent that is not interchangeable with a cheaper alternative. Roy Halladay is not equal to Shawn Camp, but to commodity industry thinkers, the different salaries are not reflective of that talent differential. They only see numbers on a page, and those numbers can be cut.

The result for the draft reflected that cut. The suits considered talent to be identical,, and cheaper is as good as more expensive. Sometimes that is true. Sometimes cheaper is better. In this case though, more expensive talent was not considered better than an unknown quantity next year. At the same time, the budget for next year's draft is also unknown. The assumption that the rollover selections will be as talented, and cheaper, is a huge gamble. If the suits are true to form, sighability at slot or below will be more important than talent.

As for the argument that the Jays don't want to set a precedent, well, that ship has long since sailed. Other teams have broken that window long ago, and did it this year in a huge way. The Jays are now behind in the talent curve by one full year; or two if you consider the slow signings. That is short sighted as the Jays need to collect all of the young talent they can to get impact players. To me, that is the key to competing in the AL East: young impact talent, then add final pieces. The draft is the cheapest route to that end.

The bean counters don't get that the WAR value of a draft pick is recouped in a single year, and the rest of the control period is gravy. Indeed one or two breakout selections pays for the entire draft. More impact players makes the draft even better. The Red Sox know to pay for talent, collecting the equivalent of several first round talents every year.

Meanwhile, the Jays' suits count beans. They are out of their depth and don't even understand their industry.

TamRa - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#205220) #
which I already explained but I'll do it again since everyone seemed to ignore my Marisnick post (prob. cause it makes too much sense)

Nah. why should we congratulate you when you congratulate yourself so well?

Everyone in baseball knows that Boras NEVER settles.

Baloney. EVERY negotiation starts at a point different than where it ends. Just today Boras said of the Strausburg negotiations that "we started with a number well under half that" refering to the Matsuzaka $50 million number.

So if he STARTED with a number, it is obvious it's not the number he finished with.

He asks for the moon, the drafting team offers the floor, and 98% of the time they settle somewhere in between.

That contradicts what you just said. And it agrees with the point made by the person you are arguing with.

There is no way in hell we blew a supplemental 1st round pick because we 'thought' we could get Paxton to settle on our "slightly above slot offer."

Who said we offered "slightly above slot" or ever intended to?


Rich - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#205221) #
I have to agree with Metafour and Wayne H.  If the team drafts brilliantly and somehow manages to sign everyone next year maybe they will get themselves out of the pickle they've put themselves in.  But there's no way at this point to interpret this draft as anything other than a fiasco which is, as far as know anyway, unprecedented in terms of failing to sign top 5 picks.  The team had to have had a reasonable idea of what it would cost to sign all of their top 5 picks so how they could pick all these players and then be unwilling to make deals for at least 3 or 4 if not all of them only makes sense if the budget changed.  Otherwise it can only be put down to sheer incompetence.  Neither is a pretty scenario.
greenfrog - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#205222) #
I might be inclined to accept the theory that the Jays are aiming for a bonanza draft in 2010 if the team had failed to sign one or even two players. But three? Something weird is definitely going on. If the Jays had injury or performance concerns about one player, why not simply take the money and make sure they signed the other two? Presumably writing off a high pick would free up enough cash to salvage the rest of the key players.

Another problem is that the Jays' latest wave of propaganda has the team trying to rebuild around Lind, Hill, Snider, Cecil and Romero. Well, those players are going to be arbitration-eligible in a few years, and free agents a few years after that. If the Jays truly want to rebuild, they're going to need a steady flow of young talent to support these players as they mature (especially if the Jays' budget remains limited). So there's an additional opportunity cost to not signing players from the '09 draft and deferring the picks for a year--it dilutes the stream of talent, and might prevent the team from building up the critical mass of young talent they will need to contend in, say, 2014 (just as the Rangers are using their abundance of young talent to stay in the race in 2009).
Dewey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#205223) #
An excellent post, WayneH.
Jim - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#205224) #
Since no one ever comments on the games I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few watching.

The top of the 5th tonight was hard to watch, Roy Halladay deserves better.

Hill can't make an easy throw (which may have been a blown call by the 1st base ump, I was on the treadmill with headphones on and couldn't tell watching the replay).  Then Encarnacion can't make a tag at second on a great throw on a dead duck Youkilis.  Then Bay hits a ball that rockets out of the park.

Potentially 3 different people conspired to cost Halladay a run.  Hill threw away an easy play.  The umpire may have blown the call (anyone see it?).  Then EE couldn't make a routine catch and tag. 

Crisp baseball.

Dewey - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#205226) #
Yes, the replays show that the ump blew the call. 
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#205227) #
One issue that has been overlooked is the fact that even though the Jays get extra picks in 2010, the Jays will lose those picks if they fail to come to terms with the players drafted with them... So the Jays lose negotiating muscle because the players/agents will know that the Jays have to sign them or lose the picks forever... Just like with Storen this year, the Nats had to take a signable guy and work out a deal before the draft because they would not have gotten the pick again next year if he didn't sign... So, in essence, the Jays will HAVE to take players with lower ceilings to ensure they sign (unless they choose to punt the picks again).
metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#205228) #
That contradicts what you just said. And it agrees with the point made by the person you are arguing with.

Sorry, but you misunderstood what I was trying to say.  I may have used the wrong phrasing when I said that Boras doesn't 'settle'.  What I was trying to say is that Boras is NEVER going to settle down to YOUR price, which is what Jdog was saying "may" have been our strategy with Paxton.  He said that the hope was that Paxton wouldn't turn down what we were offering, which would ultimately have been less than their asking price.  This never happens with Boras clients, so there is absolutely no way we decided to draft Paxton under the impression that we could get him to settle to our demands.
timpinder - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#205230) #

I agree, excellent post Wayne.

The "bean counters" probably aren't quantifying the impact disenfranchised fans will have on their bottom line.  It may be ridiculous to most, but all of our services are with Rogers because I wanted to support the business that supported our team.  Our cellular phone contracts are up in October - Bell, here we come.  Again, I might be a bit nutty, but I got back from up north, learned of the non-signings, and also learned that my wife had made plans to go to the game on Friday.  She thought I'd be excited, but I cancelled the plans because I'm boycotting Rogers Centre.  Seriously.  We went to Dunedin this year and we've spent a tonne of money on games and products over the years, but that will not happen again until this team straightens itself out.  The impact from the casual fan should hurt their bottom line too.  Who wants to spend $250+ to go to a game (parking, gas, tickets, food/beer and that's just for two) to watch the last place team get beat up by real franchises who's owners actually care?  Not me.  I've done that for the last time.

greenfrog - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#205231) #
The Jays could always try drafting Paxton again next year. Given that the team currently has the 10th-worst record in baseball, they could be in line to nab him early in the draft even if the Canadian lefty becomes a hot commodity in the spring. Something tells me that is unlikely to happen, though. :)
Schad - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#205232) #
Heh, that would be a rather infuriating turn, given that his slot as the 10th pick would exceed even Boras' wildest fantasies this year.
jerjapan - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#205233) #

But when posting on a public forum, it is important to voice reasonable criticisms. Criticisms based on premature conclusions tend not to go over as well.

If certain posters expressed *concerns* about *likely* outcomes, then that would be defensible. But this is a public forum. Kids read this stuff. I don't want our future leaders learning to jump to conclusions.

Uhh, not to quibble TJ, but your suggestion that there are future leaders reading this thread who are learning to jump to conclusions from other posters is an entirely unreasonable criticism. 


Jdog - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#205234) #
Paxton is going to enter the 2010 draft as a Top 10-15 talent.

These kind of statements are just ridiculous. You state things like this as if they are facts. We all know human behaviour is unpredictable. His arm could fall off, he could flat out regress, or he could pull a Rick Ankiel. Not to mention anything of the other hundreds of thousands of kids who could take giant leaps and vault themselves into top 10 talent. If he was such a talent why did the Yankees and Sox and everybody else pass on him at the bottom of the first round?

Your guess could very well be correct, but to write it like its a fact is ludicrous.

And your doing the same thing when your talking about Boras never settling for a clubs offer. I hate to break it to you, but you don't know what goes on in these negotiations, so to assume that Boras never settles and takes a clubs final offer is idiotic, unless your Scott Boras himself. I'm of the belief that the Jays tabled an initial offer, Paxton didn't sign it, then potentially as the deadline drew near the Jays threw out their best offer which they figured would be enough. But again Im guessing..im not ignorant enough to assume I know what happened.
metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#205235) #
The Jays could always try drafting Paxton again next year. Given that the team currently has the 10th-worst record in baseball, they could be in line to nab him early in the draft even if the Canadian lefty becomes a hot commodity in the spring. Something tells me that is unlikely to happen, though. :)


1) Paxton now has to give us permission to be able to draft him again, at least I think (I'm not 100% sure if it works the same past the first round, but in the 1st round you definitely need permission to re-draft a player you failed to sign).

2) Even if he did give us permission, do you realize how ridiculous that would be? First off, if we draft him with our first we would have to pay him significantly more than the demands Boras threw out for him two days ago...so in the end we'd be paying him more than what we could have had him at now, and it would be a full year later.  Secondly, thats a good way of wasting a high first round pick on a guy you could have had the year before.  That whole situation would be ridiculous.
metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#205236) #
These kind of statements are just ridiculous. You state things like this as if they are facts


Wow, as if they are facts? Whats the point of even projecting drafts then if you cant make current projections? Look, as of right now Bryce Harper is the #1 pick in next year's draft...could he die in a plane crash tomorrow? Sure, but if you're going to get picky about what could happen then theres no point even projecting anything.  Who cares who our top prospect is, right? I mean that guy could blow his arm out tomorrow.

That wasn't even my opinion by the way, it was stated by Keith Law just a day or two ago when he was asked to identify who he thought were the top prospects, as of today, for next year's draft.  Its not even a stretch either.  Paxton had some of the best pure stuff out of any college pitcher last year, at certain points of this past season his stock was as high as a Top 10 pick.  Think about it, this kid had an ERA in the high 5's and he was still considered a top prospect, as evidenced by us drafting him.  Why? Because he's a LHP who throws 96-97mph and has a dominant breaking ball.  His strikeout numbers were among the best in college, the only guy who I KNOW had a higher K/9 than Paxton was Strasburg.

Paxton will enter next year's draft as one of the top few college pitchers in the country.  That puts him in the 10-15 range.  Yeah, he could blow out his arm, he could also repeat last year's strikeout totals, get a bit more lucky and finish with a much better ERA and go Top 5.
metafour - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#205237) #
If he was such a talent why did the Yankees and Sox and everybody else pass on him at the bottom of the first round?


Why did Wil Myers drop to the 3rd round and then end up getting $2 million (ie: Top 15 money)? Why did Max Stassi drop to whatever round the A's picked him in and also get mid first round money? Why did Tim Melville drop to the 4th round last year and get $1.4 million from the Royals? These guys were ALL first round talents, they dropped for signability reasons....just like Paxton dropped for signability.

Why didn't the Red Sox or Yankees draft him? I dont know, why didn't they draft Myers, Stassi, or Melville? In fact, those guys got passed over by the Yankees and Red Sox with multiple picks.
rtcaino - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 12:28 AM EDT (#205239) #
jerjapan: I wasn't being perfectly serious. In actual fact I would have accepted a jump to conclusions matt over some of our recent governments. I will likely feel the same way when these pesky kids take power.
TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 01:24 AM EDT (#205240) #
What I was trying to say is that Boras is NEVER going to settle down to YOUR price, which is what Jdog was saying "may" have been our strategy with Paxton.

I assume, to the point of being almost totally convinced, that jdog knows full well NO agent ever caves to YOUR price. That's not how negotiations work. Everyone posting here surely knows that.

  He said that the hope was that Paxton wouldn't turn down what we were offering, which would ultimately have been less than their asking price.  This never happens with Boras clients,

That never happens with ANY agent unless there's a pre-draft arrangement and even then, odds are there 's some manuvering before the agreement is reached. I'd assume if that's what jdog said then he too was poorly wording his remarks - I don't THINK he'd just assume - or thing that the Jays would assume - that ANY agent is just gonna fold on his client and take the teams initial offer.

 so there is absolutely no way we decided to draft Paxton under the impression that we could get him to settle to our demands.

Me assumption is that Boras starts a negotiation with X in mind, the team starts a negotiation with Y in mind.

Boras knows full well he's going to have to accept something less than X and the team knows full well they are going to pay more than Y.

The uncertainty comes in whether or not the teams estimation of how much more than Y they are actually willing to go will be enough to meet the place Boras was willing, from day one, to come down to.

Which is to say, what the Jays SAID was their offer when negotiations began was obviously not the price they were actually willing to pay, and everyone involved knew it.

so my guess is that jdog wasn't saying that the Jays were hoping that Boras would come all the way to "Y" - rather he was saying that they hopedhe would come to that figure that they knew in the first place they would be willing to be negoitated up to.

which is a reasonable assumption, IMIO
Wayne H. - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:05 AM EDT (#205241) #
It's easy to get sidetracked on whether or not James Paxton becomes a star or a bust.  He wasn't the only unsigned selection. The fact that there were three of the top five selections, or three of the top four if you prefer, not signed says something else. There has to be three separate reasons in place here. Boras client raising the price, loss of velocity, and injury respectively for the three. That is difficult to swallow. Of course, with the Jays' luck, who knows. The Jays do have such a solid record of gauging signability, that not knowing the number, is very unlikely. Note that the Jays met lower, and later over slot demands with no problem.

In most organizations and corporate structures, there are always factions and power struggles. While not being on the inside, my suspicion is there is an internal battle between the baseball people and the bean counters. There is not a lot of common ground from an outside perspective. At the moment, it appears that the bean counters are in the ascendancy and the baseball people (Paul Beeston, JP, Alex A, Tony LeCava, and Jon Lalonde) are making the best of their situation, hoping to a change. The remarks from Alex A and Paul Beeston, and even JP's more cryptic remarks point in that direction. They see the numbers people in charge.

Again, keep in mind that I am only analyzing the company from the outside, based on what we know. What we do know is what has happened, and i can only speculate based on similar cased in other industries where the talent is the product. One common thread is bran counters never can understand the difference in talent means more fans/listeners/viewers/readers/ The suits are usually geared to commodity thinking and the interchangeability of personnel. One worker being much like another, put a process in place and key personnel losses mean little, and anyone will produce as much as another. At the same time, the product itself is seen as inelastic in demand. Good or bad, people will turn up, and that attendance, readership, listeners, or viewership won't be helped or hurt by an improved product.

In this case, the bean counters will point to the later over slot signings, and notr that those are pointed out specifically bu Alex A. The implication given is that those later round over slot signings are equal. Again, note the subtle lack of understanding that the talent is not equal. Alex A knows that very well, but he is clearly doing his job and following orders. 

There is another possibility regarding the later round over slot signs too. Note that I don't blame anyone in the baseball side for this fiasco. In fact, I think they did one fine salvage job, and may have even struck a blow back at the bean counters. The signing of one Jake, and the rest may have been in the face of more extreme cuts demanded, and the baseball people made a trade off internally, or did it unilaterally. Either way, the baseball people did a bit of a salvage job at the last minute. Again, no one can be entirely sure. I am just basing this ion public information and past experience in talking to, working in and working with corporations and top and middle level executives.

After all of that, I see some good old fashioned internal office politics and power plays in action. That is not out of the ordinary either for a company that just lost its top person. Chaos often rules, and battle lines will be drawn. The nature of those sides seems to be seeping out to the public too.







Chuck - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#205242) #

Hill can't make an easy throw (which may have been a blown call by the 1st base ump, I was on the treadmill with headphones on and couldn't tell watching the replay).  Then Encarnacion can't make a tag at second on a great throw on a dead duck Youkilis. 

Despite Hill's bad throw, Overbay made the tag. Youkilis looked out both in real time and in slow motion. The ump simply blew the call.

I don't agree that Encarnacion is to blame for the missed tag. The throw was a short hop (not a great throw -- Barajas was clearly surprised, not expecting Youkilis to steal). EE tried to simultaneously catch it and apply the tag. It's a tricky play for a second baseman with experience doing that, much more for a third baseman manning second base (because of the Ortiz shift). Even if EE were able to pick up the short hop, Youkilis would have only been out for oversliding the base, not because the throw beat him.

Mike Green - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#205245) #
These are the kinds of plays that Rolen usually made.  That is a high standard.
Hodgie - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#205247) #

Barajas did not have a particularly good night throwing the ball. He was indirectly responsible for two runs because of poor throws; with the Kotchman steal even more frustrating than the Youkalis effort. Of course, when the Jays pound out all of 1 run, losing 3-1 instead of 5-1 is splitting hairs.

rtcaino - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#205249) #
To what extent have figures surfaced with regards to the various negotiations?

There have been comments that Eli was looking for a million. I know Law indicated that we lost him for a few hundred thousand. But i haven't seen many other media reports. Mainly posters alluding to figures.
The most likely scenarios for me are a budget cut from rogers. Or simply a significant divergence in player valuation.

I'm truly hoping it was our baseball ops brain trust simply deciding the demands were too high. That they had valuations, they extended them as far as they could, and at a certain point didn't feel the figures were on the clubs best interest.

Further, where was Barret's physical mentioned, as well as speculation with regards to a velocity drop?
S P - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#205251) #
Actually it was Beeston who said "the gloves are off" in February, not JP.  And he was the one who handled the Paxton negotiations.  I can't believe people are actually blaming JP for the blown signing day.  He is clearly not the man with the final say on personnel anymore.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#205253) #

James Paxton (20),(LHP) signed with an agent, renouncing his amateur status.  He can go back to college, but he can't play Ball - NCAA rules, if I'm not mistaken.  Now he must go the Scoot Richmond route to play ball and still have value in 2010.  He will be lucky to be drafted in picks 51-100 if 2010 is decent or stronger.

In drafting College Players, for the most part, What you see is what you get.  In drafting High School Players, you get the most upside.

When I make a comment, I don't always have a point to make, but make a comment to get you thinking, not just reacting.

John Northey - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#205256) #
Richard - where did you get that item, that Paxton signed with an agent?  If he did that it sounds like Boras going after the draft again and using Paxton as the test case. 
Thomas - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#205257) #
James Paxton (20),(LHP) signed with an agent, renouncing his amateur status. He can go back to college, but he can't play Ball - NCAA rules, if I'm not mistaken.

Can you provide a link for this? There's an article on the University of Kentucky's website published on Tuesday or Wednesday about how Paxton is returning to lead their rotation and how happy the coaches are to have him for another season.

Also, if you'd like, I'll make a bet about where Paxton is selected near year. I'm fairly confident he'll go in the top 50 picks.

Timbuck2 - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#205258) #
First -  has anyone stopped to consider that maybe the Jays management see the 2010 Draft Class as having better overall talent than this years?  I know if I were the Jays and my scouting department told me the talent pool would be better next year I would be willing to let some high draft picks go unsigned in the hopes that I could draft the same or better the next year.

Metafour:
Paxton is going to enter the 2010 draft as a Top 10-15 talent, so the idea of us not signing him because we think we can find someone better next year is utterly ridiculous.

No need to get nasty just because you don't see my point. 

Since the Jays brass KNEW this as well I would think that they chose Paxton knowing that he was a long shot to sign and being comfortable with pushing the pick to the next years draft.  A projected glut of talent in the next years draft could also help explain why they didn't push as hard as they could have on the other two picks.  Just because the Jays are willing to pay over slot doesn't mean we should be overpaying for players.  You can't honestly expect the Jays to start handing out Yankee level amounts of cash for prospects can you?  That would be utterly ridiculous.

I DO agree with your hypothesis that they jays targeted the top pitcher and position player to sign.  Makes absolute sense that they would want to have something to show for this draft.
Richard S.S. - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#205263) #

 John Northey

Paxton was a Boros client before the draft, as was reported by various Blue Jay people, when they were trying to sign him.  If I misread it I appologize.  But I remember distinctly hearing him refered to as a Boros client on a Primetime segment or on the Fan 590.  Again, my appologies if I'm wrong.

John Northey - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#205266) #
I wonder... did Beeston figure Paxton would direct Boras to sign with the Jays at the last minute - hoping that the Canadian kid would want to play in Toronto more than taking the risk of getting hurt in college vs a bigger contract in 2010? 

This does make a lot of sense when I think about it.  Paxton wants the bucks but was a high talent player from Canada.  Jays figure why not give it a shot and if he really wants to play in Canada they get a high level talent, if not then they get the same pick next year and can go for a lower talent guy who they can sign (which is what they could've done instead of drafting Paxton this year).  Beeston, according to the Globe & Mail, wanted to talk with Paxton and his family directly but couldn't get past Boras - which he expected to happen but hoped to work around somehow.  Beeston is known for being able to talk people into things (such as the Roger Clemens signing years ago).

Things didn't work out, but the logic is there and sometimes you have to swing for the fences.  Sometimes you strike out, sometimes you get that home run, but one home run is worth more than a couple of singles.

John Northey - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#205268) #
Hi Richard - I see what happened.  Paxton was using Boras as his agent, but as per amateur rules, didn't actually sign with Boras.  It is very confusing as the rules for college sports are in the states.  However, it is safe to assume that Boras didn't do anything to risk Paxton being declared a professional as that would kill his leverage with the Jays (if he can't pitch his value goes down over the next year, he then has to pay to go to college, thus the Jays know they have him by the short hairs).

I was kind of hoping that Boras was doing a big draft run-around with Paxton as it would help explain the Jays failure to sign him.  Instead it looks like it was money and nothing else.

Troy_k - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#205269) #
We spent $3.7 million in the first 10 rounds this year and we didn't even sign our 2,3,4 picks. If we lose Scutaro as an FA we might get back a first round and a sandwich. That leaves us with a probable 5-12 pick and maybe a mid 20's. Those two picks alone will exceed this years 10 round money; that's without going over slot. Then we have 2 sandwich picks, maybe 3. Signing players at those spots, at slot, will eat up any where from $1.6-$3 million. So now were up over $6-$7 million and we haven't even reached the 2nd round where we will have 2 picks and then another 2 in the 3rd. Thats 4 more picks that put you over $9-$10 million with 7 more picks to go.

We aren't even willing to pony up the cash to spend an average amount this year to sign our picks that some said had first round talent. So why do people think we are going to be willing to pony up $12+ million next year to sign what will be considered average talent for their slots?

As J.P. said himself yesterday when talking about receiving picks for losing Halladay
""It comes down to if you can trade the guy and get something that you think is better than the picks then you do that," Ricciardi explained. "If not, then you take the picks and move on. ... but obviously you have to have the money to sign them."" I'd say that last bit gives you his feelings about not signing the picks this year without him having to call out his owner in public.

TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#205272) #
We aren't even willing to pony up the cash to spend an average amount this year to sign our picks that some said had first round talent. So why do people think we are going to be willing to pony up $12+ million next year to sign what will be considered average talent for their slots?

I would think that this produces the inferance that we didn't not sign those guys because of lacking the money but for other reasons.

It seems to me that it's pretty unlikely the Jays only had about $4 million budgeted for this year's draft. I guess people can read events in different ways but as I said before - IF in fact the Jays budget HAD been slashed THAT drasticlly, they would have handled the major league roster much differently.

For instance, if you know you are not going to have the money to sign the players you draft for Scutaro, then Scutaro would have been dealt in July. Overbay and Barajas would have been dealt. Doc would have gone for what the Phillies were willing to pay (or the Red Sox or whoever) Tallet and Frasor too.

It makes no sense in ANY analysis to thing that the Jays could have traded Barajas, Frasor, and Tallet and recouped enough money to sign those three guys and DIDN'T

What that tells me is that it wasn't about not having the money that they didn't sign, it was about sticking to what there valuation of the player was.

YMMV

Rich - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#205273) #
Troy, you have pointed out the elephant in the room to all those who maintain that this was an acceptable strategy all along and that it all can possibly be made better next year.  If the team wasn't willing to pay to get so many of this year's top picks signed then why on earth would anyone expect them to next year when the cost will be even higher and there will be more players to sign?  The way out of course will be to take lower ceiling players with less leverage, which certainly won't help the organization's talent base nearly as much but will more palatable to the Rogers suits.  Yes, "signable" players can and do pan out but the entire system has a real dearth of potential high impact players and they just flushed away an opportunity to bring a few more on board - very short-sighted IMO.
Rich - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#205275) #
What that tells me is that it wasn't about not having the money that they didn't sign, it was about sticking to what there valuation of the player was.

That's a fair assumption though I tend to think it's not accurate.  If the team did have the money but chose not to spend it, would that not suggest that they did a particularly poor job of gauging the demands of the 3 unsigned players?  Given the team's history this seems unlikely.  The only other possibility I can see is that the team had the money, accurately assessed the players' demands but then all 3 of them changed their minds and asked for more.  This stretches the limits of credibility I think.

If they had the money, they should have gotten at least 3 or 4 of their top 5 signed.  If the cash wasn't there they would have been better off picking players they knew they could sign, even if they were inferior talents.  Gamble and lose on one, ok, it does happen.  But on 3 of 5?  It is quite literally, unheard of (at least up to now) and either Wayne is right that the money people have changed the rules or else the baseball folks have screwed up royally.  It takes a very rosy pair of specs to be able to see this in any other light.
Gerry - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#205276) #
Keith Law was on the Fan this afternoon and he said that Barrett had a medical issue.  Another team said the Jays hadn't done their homework on him.
TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#205277) #
There has to be three separate reasons in place here... That is difficult to swallow.

Why should it be?

The thing about strange things is - it's strange when they happen....yet they tend to happen anyway. One of the cliches about baseball is that if you watch it very long, you'll see something you never saw before. If that can happen - and does - on the field, why should it not happen off the field? not just in the business of baseball but in all of life?

Occasionally, a flukey set of cricumstances produces a unique result. Sure, it sucks that it happened to us (It's almost like the bad karma on the field is extending off the field - maybe we should fire JP for being a jinx!) but it's not AT ALL impossible that three seperate - each perfectly understandable in isolation - negatives happened all at once.

Paxton - Boras wouldn't give into the "good Canadian boy" shpeel (as John spoke of) and that was a hail mary that fialed;

Barnett - Wilner speaks of "a change in circumstance" or some such but says he's not at liberty to say what, others infer something came up in the phyisical or whatever - we can't say at the moment...but for the sake of the illustration, we'll say "something changed"

Eliopolous - the true mystery man here, some say he wanted a million, and that the Jays offered over half a million. One could suppose that if the Jays went cold on Barnett that they could have flipped his money into signing Eli so that eaves us with the conclusion that Eli wouldn't budge and the Jays stood firm on the principle of not setting a higher precedent for future draftees

(By the way, see Wilner's interview with Jon Lalonde - at the end of it he mentions something about signings getting harder because each new class looks for a precedent in players signed before and wants to match or beat it)

So you have a hail mary that you were prepared to lose, a guy who's situation changed, and an example of Cito's "lose one now to win two later" thinking.

One can disagree about the handling of Eli or even Paxton - but the point is that there ARE other explanations besides "Rogers f***ed us"

Maybe they did, but it's not cut and dried.

Oh, here's the Lalonde address:

http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090819_133550_7672

After all of that, I see some good old fashioned internal office politics and power plays in action. That is not out of the ordinary either for a company that just lost its top person. Chaos often rules, and battle lines will be drawn. The nature of those sides seems to be seeping out to the public too.

Now, for all my counter-arguments, I DO agree with one often repeated idea - I DO wish that the Jays could be bought by some moneybags individual who had no other concern than getting a ring. Whatever might be said for corperate ownership, their loyalties are always divided and - especially in this division - anything that dilutes your focus is deadly to success on the field.

TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#205278) #
By the way, I find that I KEEP typing "Barnett" instead of "Barrett"

I made that mistake early because with my poor vision I misread the name as Barnett - I know better now and have for weeks but I seem to fall back on the former mistake when typing.

My apologies to all those who are troubled my the appearance of ignorance on that point.



TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#205279) #
Keith Law was on the Fan this afternoon and he said that Barrett had a medical issue.  Another team said the Jays hadn't done their homework on him.

Now HERE is a criticism I could accept without complaint.

Someone wants to say the Jays staff fumbled the ball by not catching an injury, I'll offer no defense (other than to point out that an anonymous source is always taken with a grain of salt)


Timbuck2 - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#205281) #
Now, for all my counter-arguments, I DO agree with one often repeated idea - I DO wish that the Jays could be bought by some moneybags individual who had no other concern than getting a ring. Whatever might be said for corperate ownership, their loyalties are always divided and - especially in this division - anything that dilutes your focus is deadly to success on the field.

I wonder if Jim Basille wants a baseball team instead of a hockey team?
TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#205282) #
That's a fair assumption though I tend to think it's not accurate.  If the team did have the money but chose not to spend it, would that not suggest that they did a particularly poor job of gauging the demands of the 3 unsigned players?

My take is that Paxton was drawing to an inside straight - they knew what they were up against and decided to gamble a pick on drawing the card they needed. I figure they were prepared to lose him all along.

My take on Barrett is that something changed BESIDES money after the draft - note the report above about an injury that they didn't know about (and possibly should have)

So to me, the only "bungled" pick - as far as being simply a money issue - is Eli.

so my argument boils down to the fact that either they misread Eli's demands, or the Eli wasn't willing to negotiate off his demand (which isn't really the way it's supposed to work - if you REALLY want a million, you are supposed to start at 1.5 and negotiate down) - but in either case they decided internally "Eli is worth X" and when they didn't get him to X they stood on principle because they were worried about "raising the bar"

That may well have been a bad choice - frankly, I'm inclined to think it was - but it's a different issue than not having the money at all.

In my opinion, once they saw they were going to have to let Barrett go, I would have used another 400K or whatever it was out of what would have been his money to sign Eli and then down the road when another guy says "Well you gave Eli a million" I've have explained to that guy that it was a special circumstances and stood firm on HIM - just because I wouldn't have wanted to lose three guys in THIS draft.

But just because that's what I would have done doesn't mean I find the choice they made irrational.

I DON'T think this happened because they didn't have the money to sign these guys at a fair price (except Paxton - I'm willing to accept that Paxton would have blown their budget)...however, I won't commit the error of those on the other side of this debate and state it definitively - it's just what I THINK.

And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you see this unspent money in the international market.

Spifficus - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#205283) #
On the NCAA agent-thing, Andrew Oliver was suspended for having official representation but went to court and had it overturned.
Spifficus - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#205284) #
And, surprise surprise, when I checked who that official representation was for Oliver... Boras.
Rich - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#205285) #
WillRain, if your hypothesis is correct (which personally I doubt, but it's not unreasonable) then could we not conclude:

1. Rogers hasn't pulled the rug out financially - good

2. They gambled on Paxton and lost - too bad, but forgivable in isolation

3. The didn't do their homework on Barrett

4. They miscalculated or went cheap on Eli.

If you add 2, 3, and 4 together they don't paint a pretty picture.   Losing out on one player for one reason or another is excusable, but on three?

ayjackson - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#205288) #

Let's face it, if Paxton gets his ERA in order next year, he's going top 5.  6'7" lefties with 97mph heat and hammer curves go at the top of the draft.  He's looking at a $4m bonus versus slot of $850k this year and maybe overslot at $1.3m.  If Boras was pushing for $2-2.5m, which he might be able to sell to his client, then I'm not surprised Beeston balked.

Frankly, I could care less about Eliopoulis, and if Barrett has arm problems then I'm only dissappointed about Paxton.  But if he was asking for $2.0m, you could see how he might not come to terms.  Personally, if I was saving $1m on Eliopoulis and Barrett, I would have gone as high as $2m for Paxton......unless my budget was cut.

PeterG - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#205289) #
Barrett may well have been trying to hide the injury. If so, the Jays should be credited for catching it at all(maybe they were tipped after the draft). I don't have any problem with not meeting Eli's demands if they were indeed excessive. I am not sure I can completely buy the positive case that has been laid out in this thread but I do believe that the negative case can be pretty much dismissed. I look forward to next years draft. And one more thing - I don't believe the Magnusson pick is as bad as some make it out to be. Let's wait and see. If he's in the show(which is possible) it will have been a good pick and some of the doomsayers will have mucho egg on face.
Thomas - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#205290) #
4. They miscalculated or went cheap on Eli.

I remember reading in one of Keith Law's chats or blogs that he thought the Jays lost Eliopoulos over what he believed was a relatively insignificant amount of money. I have no idea what Law consider insignificant, but he does tend to have accurate sources.

If the Jays did indeed fail to meet Barrett's asking price because of an injury that might have the right move in isolation. However, if this injury existed prior to the draft and the team failed to do its medical homework on Barrett than that's another strike against this draft.

John Northey - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#205291) #
Barrett sounds a lot like the Jays didn't think they'd get a shot at him and when they saw he was still there figured 'why not'.  They probably saw him a couple of times, did some basic homework (talked with him, his coaches) but didn't dig in deeply then, after the draft, dug in deeper and found a serious issue that they'd have found had they expected to get a shot at him.

There are hundreds of players who you could draft in the first 3 rounds.  Only so many that you can do full exams of.  I hope this was the case with Barrett - that they didn't see him being an option thus did light analysis of his health rather than in depth analysis.  Players and their coaches will hide injuries if they think they can get away with it as there are millions at stake. 

Now, given all of that, should the Jays have gone for Barrett if they had done just weak analysis?  I guess it depends on how high they thought he should've gone.  I'd think if you did weak homework on one guy and strong on many others then you should avoid taking that one guy as his dropping in the draft should ring alarm bells.

ayjackson - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#205292) #
Callis said prior to the draft that there were almost 100 players seeking first round money this year.  It's a lot of rhetoric coming from agents, but that was the big reason players like Barrett dropped.  He was a promising prospect, but he wasn't Garrett Gould, het seeking the same payday.
Wayne H. - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#205296) #
As to the "gloves off"statement, I am most assuredly not blaming JP for this draft debacle.

WillRain: I usually agree with your posts, as I am an optimist too. We are just viewing this situation from different points. You don't believe the draft budget was cut between draft day and now. Like metafour and others, I believe the budget was cut.

If we move down the draft list past the unsigned trio, and past the lower drafted over slot signed players, there were more high school players left unsigned. If there was money, why not sign one or two of those players. Their demands had to be known as well. Again, the debate arises was it cash or demands.

Digression: If it were me, I would set a $20 million dollar draft budget, draft best player available, and run the table on signing them all. After that, I would set a #10 million budget plus any remaining draft money and sign the best international free agent prospects who want to be Blue Jays. If necessary, go back to two DSL teams, and even add a Palaski type rookie team. Prospects are the way to build in the AL East.

Anyway, after what we saw happen, I am convinced that there is a conflict in the Jays organization between the bean counters and the baseball people. I fully admit to siding with the baseball people as the Jays are part of a talent is the product industry. As I wrote earlier, the loss of a top individual leads to a power vacuum and that void will be filled somehow. In this case, I see the bean counters in the ascendancy. I don't like that assessment, as I would prefer to see the baseball people gain more power. They understand the differences in talent, while the suits see only account numbers. In a talent is the product industry, those dollar numbers alone don't tell the full story.

I disagree with the management strategy of the bean counters. I always have, and in the case of a talent is the product industry, even more so.

As WillRain suggested, perhaps the money will go into international free agent talent. I do hope he is correct. That move would indicate a concession to the baseball people.

metafour - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#205298) #
If they had the money to sign everyone and Barrett did indeed have an injury then they would have used that saved money to easily sign both Eliopolous and Paxton.

I dont buy for a second that we had the money all along, and then Barrett was found to be injured (thus our budget actually INCREASED because of the savings there), and then out of some BS 'principle' we decided we weren't going to get "pushed over" by Paxton and Eliopolous....yet we were perfectly fine with giving out a huge bonus to a raw kid that had a pretty down SR season (Marisnick)?

If that was the case then why didn't we use any of that saved money to sign some of the over-slot kids we drafted later in the draft to make up for the loss of intentionally passing up on two high picks? Surely there were several of them that would have taken reasonable over-slot contracts, or am I supposed to believe that all of those kids also wanted $1+ million?

China fan - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#205299) #

Tonight's Jays lineup:  weakest 3-4-5 combination in the majors this season?

1. Marco Scutaro, SS
2. Aaron Hill, 2B
3. Vernon Wells, CF
4. Rod Barajas, C
5. Kevin Millar, 1B
6. Randy Ruiz, DH
7. Edwin Encarnacion, 3B
8. Jose Bautista, LF
9. Travis Snider, RF

TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#205300) #
You don't believe the draft budget was cut between draft day and now. Like metafour and others, I believe the budget was cut.

I'm not saying I flatly don't believe it. It's certainly possible. I'm saying that one cannot reach that conclusion definitively based on the information available to is.

it's sort of analogous to a sample size issue. meta and some others are basically doing the equivilant of projecting that Randy Ruiz will have keep hitting homers at this rate.


No, that's not fair - it's not THAT unrealistic that the budget was cut - but you get the analogy I hope.

ayjackson - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#205301) #

Metafour, if the budget was cut, why not take Eliopoulis instead of Webb and Hutchison?  Or Paxton instead of Webb, Hutchison and Hobson?

 

China fan - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#205302) #

I guess the Jays want to take a good look at this Millar kid so they know what they have for 2010.

TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#205304) #
Tonight's Jays lineup:  weakest 3-4-5 combination in the majors this season?

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the weakest since the 60's

Barajas' OPS since May 7: .583 (.207 BA)
Millar since May 8: .626 (.199 BA)
Wells since the break: .624 (.233)

and for good measure...

Bautista since May 13: .596 (.187)

We might as well just called the Red Sox up and offered to forfit.

TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#205305) #
If that was the case then why didn't we...


For the same reason that we won't take Rios' 9.7 million for next season and offer it to Barajas to re-sign


TamRa - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#205306) #
How do we know, by the way, that the only reason we signed Marisnick, Hobson, Webb and Hutchenson BECAUSE we didn't reach agreement on the three we missed?

In essence, that is, doing exactly what metafour says we would have done if we had "found money" from the guys who wouldn't sign.

Maybe if Paxton or Eli had agreed then Hobson and Webb would have been lost


Schad - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#205310) #
How do we know, by the way, that the only reason we signed Marisnick, Hobson, Webb and Hutchenson BECAUSE we didn't reach agreement on the three we missed?

In essence, that is, doing exactly what metafour says we would have done if we had "found money" from the guys who wouldn't sign.

Maybe if Paxton or Eli had agreed then Hobson and Webb would have been lost.

I can't fathom that we were so worried about losing an erratic late-rounder and our 6th round pick that we backed off negotiations with two vastly superior players. And wouldn't that speak to the same problem: that the Jays were attempting to distribute scarce resources, with the decision to sign Hobson and Webb rendering big bonuses for Paxton and Eliopolous nonviable?
metafour - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#205312) #
Metafour, if the budget was cut, why not take Eliopoulis instead of Webb and Hutchison?  Or Paxton instead of Webb, Hutchison and Hobson?


If your budget is cut then it makes the most logical sense to distribute whatever money you DO have available in a way that would best salvage your draft.

Webb cost $450k, Hobson cost $500k, and while we never got a figure on Hutchison he likely received around $200-250k

Webb and Hutchison alone cost probably a bit under what Eliopolous would have signed for ($650-700k vs. probably $700-800k which Eliopolous would have signed for).

Webb, Hutchison, AND Hobson together make up $1.15 to $1.20 million.  Boras' other hard throwing college LHP (Andrew Oliver) signed for $1.495 million, so its safe to assume the Paxton most likely would have been looking for, and would have signed for, a similar number: say $1.5 million.

For a team under a reduced budget does it not make more sense to take 3 vs. 1 (Hobson/Webb/Hutchison vs. only Paxton)? Especially considering we got Jenkins signed? Taking 3 vs. 1 gives you greater odds of actually hitting on a pick, PLUS it also fills more needs because our system is deficiant in proven hitting prospects and Hobson has the ability to be an impact bat. The same can be said for Webb+Hutchison vs. Eliopolous.  In both cases it actually still cost LESS to sign the multi-player packages as opposed to the single player packages.
Jim - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#205313) #

It's a tricky play for a second baseman with experience doing that, much more for a third baseman manning second base

Wow.  With this statement I now know that anything will be excused on BattersBox.  That was a routine play in the major leagues.   Make catch.  Apply tag. 

I guess 4 years of playing third base in the major leagues isn't enough experience for Encarnacion to catch a ball on a short hop and apply a tag to a runner who is a dead duck.

bball12 - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#205315) #
Its a rough spot right now.

When you look at the MLB club roster - it isnt very pretty. The 3-7 spots are almost as bad as you can get in MLB,

When you look at the future - the farm clubs - what you see isnt very pretty either.

The 2007 and 2008 drafts look like a disaster. Most of the early round picks arent developing - in fact - they get worse with each game.
I have seen a bunch of games at various levels the last 3 years - and I am still shaking my head.

The draft philosophy the last few years seems to have been centered more around hype and physical potential - and less on proven performance.

And now - the reality of those decisions are starting to make themselves evident.

Potential is great - looking like a thoroughbred is great - but you also have to catch the ball - and hit the ball - and run.

Its just not something that seems to have been the focus recently - and the results are in our faces now and undeniable.





 

metafour - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 10:15 PM EDT (#205320) #
For the same reason that we won't take Rios' 9.7 million for next season and offer it to Barajas to re-sign

What? That isn't even remotely comparable.

There is absolutely no benefit to saving money from your draft budget because it is unrelated to your overall budget.  Now, I'm NOT suggesting that that means that you should pay a 4th round talent $2 million just to "use up" all of your budget, but look at our scenario: with so many top picks unsigned it automatically makes our draft one of the weakest in the league.  OK, Barrett is injured so you dont sign him, and you dont want to "give in" to the demands of Paxton and Eliopolous...that leaves you with a boatload of money (if its actually there, which me and a few others are arguing was NOT the case)...you dont think it makes sense to make up some of the loss of losing 3 top picks by using some (I'm not even saying all) of that now unused money to sign a couple of those late round guys? The Benincasa kid made statements after he was selected that he was signable AND that we were showing initial interest in signing him.  We have all this extra money, why not sign him? What about all those JUCO kids we drafted late? Surely you can find 2-3 of those guys who you like who WILL bite on $200-300k bonuses (thats like 4th round money).

Theres absolutely no way we sustain all of those losses at the top of the draft, have all this left-over money, and then decide to do absolutely nothing with it to recoup for said losses.
bball12 - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#205322) #
Well - you could use some of that left over money to give Wells a raise. LOL
Wayne H. - Thursday, August 20 2009 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#205324) #
Metafour wrote:

If that was the case then why didn't we use any of that saved money to sign some of the over-slot kids we drafted later in the draft to make up for the loss of intentionally passing up on two high picks? Surely there were several of them that would have taken reasonable over-slot contracts, or am I supposed to believe that all of those kids also wanted $1+ million

and also this:

The Benincasa kid made statements after he was selected that he was signable AND that we were showing initial interest in signing him.  We have all this extra money, why not sign him? What about all those JUCO kids we drafted late? Surely you can find 2-3 of those guys who you like who WILL bite on $200-300k bonuses (thats like 4th round money).

This is exactly the same question that I asked earlier in the thread. If this money was indeed not taken away, as metafour, others, and myself believe, then why not sign these lower drafted high school and JUCO players.  They couldn't all be asking for a million. Indeed, I think that Jon Lalonde and the scouts had a very good idea about how much money these players wanted. If even one or two (and preferably more) of them had been signed, the draft would look much less like a hatchet was taken to the budget.







Spifficus - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#205329) #

with so many top picks unsigned it automatically makes our draft one of the weakest in the league.

Umm, considering we only missed on one of our non-compensation picks, that's a foolish statement. Was it a failure to maximize talent coming into the system? Yup, that's automatic. Was it dissapointing? Sure. As for talent coming in? It's by no means automatic.

I don't see how it's weaker than the Rays, who failed failed to sign their top two picks, the Mets, who had given up a pick and didn't make up for it by going over slot, Texas (at this point), KC (at this point), or Philly. The Braves had a big gap between #7 (with Minor being an overdraft) and #87, but they may have made up for it later. Houston doesn't look like they had a better draft. A Cubs draft is automatically a dissapointing draft. There are some others i'm thinking about, but I'm not sure how they did in later rounds.

Anyway, it's by no means automatic, considering we were just a second rounder short of a normal draft compliment, with some over-slots thrown in for good measure.

westcoast dude - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:21 AM EDT (#205330) #
In 1949, the Yankees gave Mickey Mantle a $1100 bonus.  Since then, the price of wheat has quadrupled, gold is about 27 times more expensive, and a good prospect gets over a thousand times Mantle's bonus.  It's no wonder James Sinclair believes the USD will implode in the next 80 days. 
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 02:06 AM EDT (#205331) #
I don't see how it's weaker than the Rays, who failed failed to sign their top two picks, the Mets, who had given up a pick and didn't make up for it by going over slot, Texas (at this point), KC (at this point), or Philly. The Braves had a big gap between #7 (with Minor being an overdraft) and #87, but they may have made up for it later. Houston doesn't look like they had a better draft. A Cubs draft is automatically a dissapointing draft. There are some others i'm thinking about, but I'm not sure how they did in later rounds.


I said it was one of the weakest, theres certainly arguments you can make regarding a few teams.  Of the teams you listed that I dont agree with:

KC easily had a better draft.  I know you are comparing them with Crow unsigned, but he WILL sign with KC at which point it wont even be close: Crow>Jenkins, Myers>Marisnick, Dwyer>whoever you want to compare him to.  They got two legit first round talents (and not just fringe guys, Crow is probably Top 10 and Myers is Top 15-20) AND Dwyer who graded out as a 2nd round type talent.  They also got several other HS kids signed from the 7th-12th rounds.

Texas will almost certainly sign Scheppers considering they missed on Purke, and you could easily argue that Scheppers is one of the top arms in this draft.  I dont know much about the rest of their draft off the top of my head but they did get quite a few JUCO and HS kids signed.

The Rays, even without their top 2 picks, make for an interesdting argument.  Bailey is a 1st round talent, you can argue that Glaesmann is as good or better than Marisnick, Malm is easily better than Hobson and is a 2nd round type talent, etc.  They also signed quite a few HS and JUCO kids.

At the end of the day our draft is still in the bottom 3rd league wide, and that is absolutely unacceptable considering the state of our system.  Our system looks very weak right now, to think that we had all this money laying around and didn't even bother to sign a few late-round kids is utterly ridiculous.
TamRa - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 02:12 AM EDT (#205332) #
This is exactly the same question that I asked earlier in the thread. If this money was indeed not taken away, as metafour, others, and myself believe, then why not sign these lower drafted high school and JUCO players.  They couldn't all be asking for a million. Indeed, I think that Jon Lalonde and the scouts had a very good idea about how much money these players wanted. If even one or two (and preferably more) of them had been signed, the draft would look much less like a hatchet was taken to the budget.

Two things:

1. I don't think there is one single poster here that would have said "Sure we missed on three of the top four but i feel a lot better because we nailed down #33 and #40

2. and the bigger point - in the Law interview on the FAN, he described Boras' negotiating technique (while speaking of the Strasburg signing).

"I can tell you that typically he [Boras] waits until the final day. He likes to push it up to the last possible minute to ratchet up the pressure on the team, to try to get them to maybe make an emotional decision, and to limit the amount of the time that they have to, essentially, gauge whatever the market might be, look at alternatives, look at what the options might be - he likes to stack the deck in his favor as much as possible. I'm guessing, based on past experience, probably nothing happened until a few hours before the deadline"

Now, he says that's Boras' SOP. So he surely operated that way with Paxton too. And if the Jays were holding out hope that they could close the deal with Paxton they couldn't reallocate his money until VERY close to the deadline and that would limit or prevent turing to other players unless they just totally caved to the players number altogether because there would have been no time left for negotiations - especially multiple ones.

I DO think there's logic in looking at the timing of the signings as metafour did but I reach a different conclusion. When the Jays came in on Monday and decided Barrett wasn't going to discount down to the lesser value (whatever it was) and they had HIS money in play, then they decided - as meta suggests - which they had rather have between Marisnick and Eli and went ahead and used the excess Barrett money to sign him, along with Hobson and Webb.

That left them, mid-day, with a guy they knew they were out on (Barrett) and two guys that they presumed they could get only one of, but as it turned out - and I'm guessing here - Boras played them so late on Paxton that they didn't have time to redirect his money elsewhere by the time they knew it wasn't going to work. Maybe they still had time to make a quick "cave or not cave" choice on Eli and decided against it. but whatever was done regarding him and the rest, it would have all been done "on the fly" late Monday night so I, for one, am not going to sweat the 33rd round pick and I, with all due respect, doubt the sincerity of anyone who claims to be worried about it.

I'm open to the idea that they got shorted on the budget - time will tell.

but for now, my working thesis is that we have one injury, one long shot, and one possibly poorly played negotiation - and it just sucks that all three happened at once.

It was a fluke freak occurance - just like doc leaving before the sixth is a fluke occurance. I believe the phrase is "shit happens"

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thin it's as reasonable a conclusion as the "Rogers f***ed us" conclusion.



TamRa - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 02:52 AM EDT (#205333) #
We have all this extra money, why not sign him? What about all those JUCO kids we drafted late? Surely you can find 2-3 of those guys who you like who WILL bite on $200-300k bonuses (thats like 4th round money).

Organization filler. AA said as much in the interview the other day. You get a useful guy in the later rounds - say past 20 or so) it is sheer "found money" - those guys aren't picked with the expectation of doing anything but addressing a weak spot in the system (AA said something like "this team needs a shortstop or that team needs a reliever")

You can say "what the he;; we might as well have spent another couple hundred thousand to sign those guys" if you want but those guys have exactly zero to do with the prospects of the major league team or the strength of the system.

And if you do take an actual good player (they took Brett Wallece really late a few years ago) you know going in that he's not going to sign, it's a total one-in-a-million gamble.

Since the draft in '94, here's a list of all the reasonably important guys - either contributing major leaguers or well-regarded prospects, selected and signed after the 20th round:

'94: round 54 - Chris Woodward (out of 44 players selected after the 20th round)
'95: no one (39 players)
'96: no one (32)
'97: R47 - Orlando Hudson (he was actually a 33rd rounder the year before and didn't sign) (47)
'98: no one (30)
'99: no one (30)
'00: no one (30)
'01: no one (30)
'02: no one (30)
'03: no one (30)
'04: 24 - Jesse Listch (30)
'05: no one (30)
'06: no one (30)


So 13 seasons, 3 guys. Out of 432 possibilities.

It would be INSANE to throw a six-figure deal at any of those guys.
Unless there is one of those Brett Wallace type flyers down there - do you see a guy on that list who's a hot commodity that's expected to be a future first rounder? Can you cite us a source that shows that about any of them?

So lets not get busted up about not signing these guys - it's a total non-issue.

92-93 - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 03:11 AM EDT (#205334) #
The success rate has been historically bad BECAUSE the Jays haven't been giving six figure contracts to tantalizing high school talent.
TamRa - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 03:14 AM EDT (#205335) #

I can't fathom that we were so worried about losing an erratic late-rounder and our 6th round pick that we backed off negotiations with two vastly superior players. And wouldn't that speak to the same problem: that the Jays were attempting to distribute scarce resources, with the decision to sign Hobson and Webb rendering big bonuses for Paxton and Eliopolous nonviable?


You are reading that post backwards.

I wasn't saying the Jays conciously chose the late rounder over the high rounder - I was saying that it's quite possible that what meta and a couple of others are saying - that if you can't sign an upper rounder (in this case Barrett since the injury presumably gave them "permission" to go ahead and re-direct his money) that you should spend that money to sign some other later round guys  - is exactly what probably happened in the case of Webb, Hutchinson and maybe Hobson.

Do you follow what I'm saying? It's not that they'd rather have those guys instead of Barrett - it's that once they know they are not going to sign him, they can direct that money to perhaps be more generous with lower round guys they think well of that might otherwise have gotten way.

As far as Eli goes, I DO think that meta has it right....they decided (in this process) to prioritize Marisnick over Eliopoulos.

So, to repeat what I've said elsewhere - at some point Monday they wrote off Barret, and redirected that money - they chose Marisnick over Eli and with what was left they closed out Hobson and Webb.

that left them, at that point, with two upper round guys the wanted to sign that were stil out there.

From there the rest is much more speculative (not that the foregoing wasn't speculative to a degree but it's speculation that most all of us agree on in it's basic outline)

MY speculation - based on what Law said about Boras - is that the Paxton situation was strung along so late that the Jays were handcuffed on doing anything with the money budgeted for him.

But I admit I'm speculating.

TamRa - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 03:17 AM EDT (#205336) #
The success rate has been historically bad BECAUSE the Jays haven't been giving six figure contracts to tantalizing high school talent.

Oh please - the rate for late round picks turning into productive major leaguers is abysmal across the league.

You want to cite me a list of as many as 7 guys in the last 14 years from any one organization who were drafted and signed after the 20th round?

I'm not going to waste the time but I'd wager such a list couldn't be made.

Wayne H. - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 03:50 AM EDT (#205337) #
While I am still not convinced that the brass didn't pull the rug on the baseball people, there is one way that they can prove otherwise. The case being made in support of the bean counters is that the baseball people messed up. The points being made about James Paxton and Scott Boras, as well as Eli, sound like post facto rationalizations. There are many of those rationalizations elsewhere done in the wake of corporate infighting for control. Mopst are face saving actions, or buying time to regain some share of the control.

I do remain convinced, based solely on the evidence and statements made publicly, that there is a battle for control of the Jays operation in progress. I am of the saddened opinion that the baseball people are losing.

If the money saved is redirected to signing top international free agents, who are first, sandwich, and second round talents, the suits can redeem themselves. If none of the draft money is redirected toward international free agents, while other teams are signing them, that speaks volumes about how the internal power struggle is progressing at that point.

If the top international free agents are indeed signed, then the internal battle for control will be in some sort of truce or even equilibrium. If the Jays add no top international free agents, to replace the talents missed in the draft, there will be few if any other conclusions beyond the bare fact of severe budget cuts. Those supporting the bean counter side will have to justify the non-signings at that point too.

As always, I hope to be proven wrong, and I am sure metafour and others would feel the same way. Until then, however, the onus is on the Jays' top management to provide the funds to add top international free agents. That is how the bean counters can prove us wrong.

Spifficus - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#205341) #

I said it was one of the weakest,

No, you said 'automatically one of the weakest'. You just continually talk with an imperious and overbearing tone when facts don't warrant absolutism in an effort to leave a down-not-across impression. Forgive me if it gets a bit tiresome.

Richard S.S. - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 08:21 AM EDT (#205342) #
Where do you go to find out How Much each Toronto draft pick signed for, and what was slot?
Frank Markotich - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#205346) #
WillRain - when you draft a Boras client, you know, you absolutely know, that things will go down to the wire. If this catches you off guard to where you can't redeploy the money in some fashion, then you haven't been paying attention for many years now.
MatO - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#205347) #
The chances of finding someone late in the draft are even less than they used to be.  Woodward, Hudson and Litsch were all draft and follows.  You used to be able to get a free year of development if a draftee went to a JuCo but now if they don't sign by August 15 they're back in the draft.
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#205355) #
No, you said 'automatically one of the weakest


Does that not ****ing mean exactly what I said it meant?

Did I say it was "automatically the weakest"???

NO

I said it was "automatically ONE of the weakest"

ONE of the weakest means that it is one of the five-six worst in the league...which you pretty much proved when you listed your comparable teams with only the Cubs, Mets, Phillies (plus maybe one or two more) being valid arguments.
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#205356) #
"Supplemental first-round draft pick James Paxton (37th overall) and the Blue Jays were only $350,000 apart in contract talks this week, according to Baseball America, but the Blue Jays would not budge from their offer of $1-million. The publication said the left-handed pitcher and his agent, Scott Boras, came off his $1.5-million asking price and were willing to sign for $1.35-million"

"Supplemental first-round draft pick James Paxton (37th overall) and the Blue Jays were only $350,000 apart in contract talks this week, according to Baseball America, but the Blue Jays would not budge from their offer of $1-million. The publication said the left-handed pitcher and his agent, Scott Boras, came off his $1.5-million asking price and were willing to sign for $1.35-million"


"Supplemental first-round draft pick James Paxton (37th overall) and the Blue Jays were only $350,000 apart in contract talks this week, according to Baseball America, but the Blue Jays would not budge from their offer of $1-million. The publication said the left-handed pitcher and his agent, Scott Boras, came off his $1.5-million asking price and were willing to sign for $1.35-million"



Lets hear those counter arguments.

"The gloves are off!"
"Money isn't going to be an issue!"

...and then our best offer for Paxton is $1 million?  The exact same amount we paid for a clearly inferior player (Marisnick)? We offered about $200k over slot.  Signing Paxton for $1.35 million is a bargain.
Christopher - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#205357) #

Here's a link to the Globe article stating that Paxton would have signed for 1.35-million.

For what it's worth, the next sentence after the one listed by metafour reads:

More bunk, according to a Blue Jays official, who said the Blue Jays never made a counteroffer to what the native of Ladner, B.C., was asking

I'd be disappointed if the this was true.  1.35-million seems reasonable to me.

Rich - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#205359) #
More bunk, according to a Blue Jays official, who said the Blue Jays never made a counteroffer to what the native of Ladner, B.C., was asking

Fans should believe the team used a sandwich pick on Paxton and then never even bothered to make an offer in response to his demands?

As they say, I may have been born under a rock, but I wasn't born under a rock yesterday.  It has become exceedingly difficult to take any claims from the current front office seriously.
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#205361) #
It would be INSANE to throw a six-figure deal at any of those guys.
Unless there is one of those Brett Wallace type flyers down there - do you see a guy on that list who's a hot commodity that's expected to be a future first rounder? Can you cite us a source that shows that about any of them?


We gave a six-figure bonus to 46th round pick LHP Tyler Ybarra just last season.

Our 26th round pick from last year's draft, C Justin Dalles (JUCO), was drafted at the top of the 6th round this year by the Orioles and signed, so dont BS me about those guys being "filler"...quite a few of those guys have upside, which is why they're drafted.  The guys I'm talking about aren't late round college JRs and SRs, they're HS kids who the team likes and JUCO kids who have a lot of eligibility left.  The reason why 99% of them never sign is because theres no money left over, but when your team supposedly has upwards of $2.5-$3 million million left over from "voluntarily" not signing three of your top picks it is 100% logical to believe that the team would shift itsa attention to a few of those guys who they never expected to sign but now are in a position to do so.

Our 49th round pick this year (RHP Tyler Collier) was drafted in the 29th round out of HS last year by the Brewers, he didn't sign and ended up in JUCO where he put up absolutely ridiculous numbers this year:

13-1
2.67 ERA
91 IP
128 K (12.66 K/9)
62 H (6.13 H/9)
39 BB (3.86 BB/9)


We never expected to sign him so we pretty much just took him with one of our last picks for shits and giggles (as teams often do)....with all that money left over why wouldn't you throw a handful at Collier who appears to be a very very legit talent.


Troy_k - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#205362) #
They look even worse in my eyes if they're admitting they didn't even make a counter offer to Paxton!
Seeing as Beeston said he was in talks with Boras I can't see them not talking numbers.

If those numbers are anywhere near close we should have been able to sign both Paxton and Eli plus all the picks that we did sign. We would have only spent roughly 128% of our slot total which would have been slightly above average for this draft.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/?p=1786
92-93 - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#205363) #
"but when your team supposedly has upwards of $2.5-$3 million million left over from "voluntarily" not signing three of your top picks it is 100% logical to believe that the team would shift itsa attention to a few of those guys who they never expected to sign but now are in a position to do so."

Why is that money "leftover"? It seems a large chuck of that went to Marisnick, Hobson, Webb, and Hutchinson. Where do people get the slot figures from, and can anyone compare what the Jays spent last year on the draft to this year? It infuriates me to read that the Jays didn't sign Paxton over the amount of money the Jays wasted this year on Kevin Millar instead of Randy Ruiz.
Spifficus - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#205364) #
Yeah, you really need to find your beta blockers. There is no apologist movement. There aren't people out to get you (except for the green ones in the ship). There aren't people you need to yell at into submission (I think this is a fairly accurate interpretation of the tone of most of your posts). There are, however, people that happen to disagree with varying opinions you have and try to pawn off as indisputable fact. I, for example, definately still disagree on KC, Texas and TB. Additionally, there are still other organizations that I thought of, but would want to look further into (they might have signed over-slotters like the Jays).

Just knowing the bold tag and found your asterisk key doesn't make your arguments any more compelling. In fact, they're simply more argumentative.

As for Paxton in particular, if that was the asking price at the end, that was a definite missed opportunity that should have been taken (or thereabouts). The price is lower than Olivers', who has a similar fastball, an out-pitch changeup (instead of Paxton's plus hammer-curve), but much better fastball command (plus command, in fact, as opposed to so-so). There is one caveat, of course - Boras has been known to use the media better than almost anyone in the industry. I mean, how else do you explain that the SS deal has been viewed as anywhere from win-win to a steal by the Nationals... A deal that eclipsed the previous record by 50%. And I'm even a bit of a sucker on that one (I'm in the win-win column).

92-93 - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#205365) #
Troy's link proves my point. Webb and Hutchinson's overslot signings brings the Jays right up to around 100% of their slot total figure.
92-93 - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#205366) #
"I mean, how else do you explain that the SS deal has been viewed as anywhere from win-win to a steal by the Nationals... A deal that eclipsed the previous record by 50%."

Average ticket price has gone up 46% since Mark Prior signed his contract. Strasburg only received 44% more than Prior. Strasburg's prospect hype was bigger than Prior's was, and therefore people view this as a win for the Nationals.
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#205367) #
Hey guys, here comes some more ammunition:

Bob Elliott:
"The Jays made a slot money offer of $530,000 to Eliopoulos. The offer was denied and a request was made for $700,000"


So, lets recap some things:
I got Paxton's bonus demands dead on.
I got Eliopolous' bonus demands dead on.
Neither was asking for the moon, which is what you guys appear to be arguing was the case.


I've been 100% right the entire time, which is why I'm yelling, because no offense to anyone here but I seriously doubt anyone wasted as much time following this draft as I did.

92-93 - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#205368) #
Except I just proved you wrong, but whatever. Get off that high horse sir.
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#205369) #
Why is that money "leftover"?


Its 'left over' because the official story from the Rogers' trained hounds is that we had the money to sign Paxton and Eliopolous (I'll discount Barrett because it is easily possible he could actually be hurt) but decided not to because we stood our ground and didn't want to meet their demands.  The plan all along was to sign ALL of those guys INCLUDING Marisnick, so his $1 million means next to nothing because it had nothing to do with not signing anyone else.

I've already stated that I believe we signed Webb and especially Hutchison because we didn't have the money to sign the more expensive guys at the top.  Huchison doesn't get signed if we sign Eliopolous and Barrett.
Spifficus - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#205370) #

Right, 92-93, as you point out, there are reasons why he makes that contract a win-win. I was just trying to point out that the media and fan perception (and in turn, the team's perception) of the deal was shaped by Boras' media work, as usual.

Troy_k - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#205371) #
Troy's link proves my point. Webb and Hutchinson's overslot signings brings the Jays right up to around 100% of their slot total figure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those are just for the first 10 rounds.

You would have to assume that no other teams paid out over slot bonuses after the 10th round to make a comparision with those signings by the Jays; I don't.
Spifficus - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#205372) #

...I'm yelling, because no offense to anyone here but I seriously doubt anyone wasted as much time following this draft as I did.

So, you need sleep? Fair enough, that's a reason I can understand.

92-93 - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#205373) #
"The plan all along was to sign ALL of those guys INCLUDING Marisnick, so his $1 million means next to nothing because it had nothing to do with not signing anyone else."

Why are you passing this off as fact? The plan all along was for the Jays to spend like the Tigers and pump in almost double the total slot recommendation to the draft? I highly doubt it. The new plan was to take the best talent available and see if you can sign them (because of the compensation picks), not guarantee that you will sign them.

"I was just trying to point out that the media and fan perception (and in turn, the team's perception) of the deal was shaped by Boras' media work, as usual."

But it wasn't. Most scouts pegged Strasburg as the greatest pitching prospect ever, and he didn't get any more relatively speaking than Mark Prior did 9 years ago. This was a good deal for the Nationals no matter who represented SS.

"You would have to assume that no other teams paid out over slot bonuses after the 10th round to make a comparision with those signings by the Jays; I don't."

No, I was merely pointing out with the link's numbers and the knowledge that the Jays spent around 900k extra on Webb/Hutchinson that the Jays spent right around what slot was for the top 10 picks, even having not signed 3 of them.
MatO - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#205374) #
We never expected to sign him so we pretty much just took him with one of our last picks for shits and giggles (as teams often do)....with all that money left over why wouldn't you throw a handful at Collier who appears to be a very very legit talent.

You're not serious right?  He's drafted in the 29th round then goes to JuCo and drops 20 rounds, is passed over in the draft for about 1500 other players and he's a "legit talent"? 
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#205383) #
You're not serious right?  He's drafted in the 29th round then goes to JuCo and drops 20 rounds, is passed over in the draft for about 1500 other players and he's a "legit talent"?

Yes, I am completely serious.

Collier was tied with 11th round pick Johnny Gunter (Rangers) for the JUCO lead in strikeouts this past spring.  And thats over all 3 divisions of JUCO baseball.  Clearly a kid who strikes out 12.6 per 9 innings and has excellent splits across the board has some form of talent.

The fact that he dropped further than where he was selected out of HS means absolutely nothing other than that teams really believed he wouldn't sign.  Even we clearly thought he wouldn't sign (otherwise we would have selected him higher), but then again I'm sure when we drafted him we didn't think we'd miss on all 3 of Paxton, Eliopolous, and Barrett.
MatO - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#205386) #
Or it means he has a 85 mph fastball but a really good curve to fool JuCo hitters.  What big program has he signed with? 
metafour - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#205387) #
Texas.


Righthander Tommy Collier pitched Cypress-Fairbanks High to the state 5-A title in 2007, when he was also the 5-A player of the year. The Brewers thought they could sign him for $75,000 after taking him in the 29th round last June, but he opted to attend San Jacinto JC instead. Collier was the leading winner on the Gators this spring, going 12-1, 2.81 with 115 strikeouts in 83 innings. He capped his season with a 13-strikeout win over Spartanburg Methodist (S.C.) in the opening round of the Junior College World Series. Collier pitched at 86-91 mph with his two-seam fastball for most of the spring, keeping the ball down in the zone with good sink. The 6-foot-2, 195-pounder showed more velocity and touched 94 in the fall. His hard slider is his out pitch and he also throws a curveball, but he relies on his breaking stuff too often. Collier has committed to Texas for his sophomore season, but the Longhorns are loaded with pitchers and scouts wouldn't be surprised if Collier returned to San Jacinto if he doesn't turn pro.

Frank Markotich - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#205390) #

So if those bonus numbers are accurate, then the combined difference betwen the Blue Jays and Paxton and Eliopoulos was less than half the difference of having Angel Sanchez or somebody instead of John McDonald as the utility infielder.

 

mendocino - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#205392) #

Collier played with Falmouth this summer in the Cape Cod League

in 6 starts

3-2

3.23

30.2 IP

22 H

8 BB

35 k's

mendocino - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#205393) #

Collier played with Falmouth this summer in the Cape Cod League

in 6 starts

3-2

3.23

30.2 IP

22 H

8 BB

35 k's

mendocino - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#205394) #
sorry, stupid WiFi
TamRa - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#205396) #
The points being made about James Paxton and Scott Boras, as well as Eli, sound like post facto rationalizations.

No more so that "Rogers f***ed us"

without all the information, ALL of it is rationalization - everything here that doesn't come from a specific media report and some of that.


Fans should believe the team used a sandwich pick on Paxton and then never even bothered to make an offer in response to his demands?


Actually, even the defense would paint the same picture. IF they wouldn't come off 350K that means either (a) they made a really bad decision, IMO; or (b) meta is right that they had their budget cut - on the other hand, if they never made a counter-offer that would imply the exact same thing.

The only  thing here that would mitigate that in any way is if their valuation was considerably less than $1 million but if that's true then you don't draft him. I'd think this should become meta's #1 point in his case.

so dont BS me about those guys being "filler"...quite a few of those guys have upside, which is why they're drafted.


I'm just looking at the record. Even if you count the guys who don't sign and get drafted higher later (like Wallace) the great majority of them are nobodies.

Hey guys, here comes some more ammunition:

Bob Elliott:
"The Jays made a slot money offer of $530,000 to Eliopoulos. The offer was denied and a request was made for $700,000"


Maybe. But Bob Elliot stated flatly that the Jays new president was chosen a few weeks ago and Beeston denied it and there's been no coroberation so I wouldn't take Elliot as gospel.

Or any other reporter, it depends on their sources.

I've been 100% right the entire time


You are certainly the Master of self-congratulation, I'll give you that.

So if those bonus numbers are accurate, then the combined difference betwen the Blue Jays and Paxton and Eliopoulos was less than half the difference of having Angel Sanchez or somebody instead of John McDonald as the utility infielder.

True but Johnny Mac has a guaranteed deal so there's nothing for that.  Still, if it were true that there was less than $600K standing between us and those two I would agree it was a seriously bad move to not sign them.


Here's the problem I still have with the "there was no money" thesis though - $600K is chicken feed to the budget of a major league team. IF Rogers is cutting case to THAT degree, then - and I say this again - why were there no more dramatic cost cutting measures going on at the major league level? For instance, the jays could have dealt Jason Frasor at the deadline and saved more than that. And there WAS interest so if they wanted to save money so badly it should have been a given they would ship him off even if they didn't get what they would have wanted in return.

If $600K is a lot of money to the bean counters - why is Frasor still a Blue Jay?

For that reason
I'm a lot more sympathetic to the idea that the baseball people made a poor choice than I am to the "they didn't have the money" thesis.

Now, lest you think there's bias involved - I LIKE Anthopoulos, LaLonde, and LaCava and think JP gets too much criticism...the "no money" thesis is the one I would WANT to believe because that lets me blame the suits.

For now I'm painted into the corner of hoping the reports are incomplete or wrong because I would like to think it CAN'T be true that they blinked over such a relatively small figure.

On the other hand, if in fact the draft budget WAS cut to that degree and yet the major league budget continues to feature so much expendable cost, that's showing a whole different set of bad thinking.

All in all, the one thing I can say for sure is that this whole thing smells very funny - any way you try to put the pieces together they simply don't form a coherent picture.

TamRa - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#205400) #
This thread is getting so long I can't find something here I was sure I had seen here but whatever...

Here's a strange (assuming the "they had no money" thesis is right):

Item: We are told we should take the BA report and Elliot's article as reliable information. If this is true then the Jays did have budgeted some $1.5 million for JP and JE

Item: Apparently the Jays were a combined $600K away from signing those two

Item: it was mentioned somewhere - in this thread i believe - that the Jays went a combined $600 k over slot on two lower round picks (don't remember which two)

THUS - if all this is true - all this which has been confirmed as true by the folks on Meta's side of the discussion - then they Jays HAD enough money in hand to redirect that $600K to the upper round guys and sign them instead of the lower round guys and didn't do so - why? that's not a lack of money, that's a choice to sign the lower guy instead of the higher guy.

One alternate explanation is that once the Jays knew they were not going to sign either Eli or Paxton, they could redirect the money budgeted for them into that $600K they spent on the lower round guys. Okay, fine - let's say that's true that means they could either spend what they wanted to give Eli on those two and have left in hand almost all of the 1 mil they had planed to give Paxton - OR they could have written off Paxton and had enough extra cash to sign both the lower round guys AND Eliopoulos.

Why didn't they?

In any case, the underlying point is that IF Elliot and BA are accurate that the Jays made the published offers to those two pitchers, then they HAD THE MONEY when those offers were made. Maybe they didn';t have the money for the lower round guys, but they had the money to sign Paxton and Eliopoulos.

Unless I'm missing something, you can't point to those two articles as support for the claim that the Jays didn't have the money.


MatO - Friday, August 21 2009 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#205402) #
I don't get the Collier situation.  If the Jays hadn't selected him in the 49th round it seems quite likely that nobody was going to draft him.  Teams were drafting college seniors left and right and nobody wanted to take a shot at signing Collier?
Wayne H. - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 12:55 AM EDT (#205403) #
WillRain wrote:

In any case, the underlying point is that IF Elliot and BA are accurate that the Jays made the published offers to those two pitchers, then they HAD THE MONEY when those offers were made. Maybe they didn';t have the money for the lower round guys, but they had the money to sign Paxton and Eliopoulos.


The signings are not mutually exclusive unless the overall draft budget was cut. There should have been money to sign both the higher drafted players and the lower drafted players as well. Strong drafts result from signing most of the draftees. When there is a need to choose between draft picks, that is a direct result of the draft budget being insufficient to meet the overall signing requirements.

The signing should never be an either/or situation. The budget should be set at a high enough level to sign all of the drafted players. Decisions to not sign players will then be made based on injury or being a lesser prospect than previously thought. Those would be baseball decisions. In the case of this draft, the need to choose became a money decision. If that isn't the direct result of too small of a draft budget, then what is?

Once again, the evidence points back to a budget cut as a direct result of a power struggle going on within Rogers. This entire scenario reeks of a power struggle to fill the vacuum left by the death of Ted Rogers. Opponents to owning the Jays completely, along with the opponents to spending much money on the Jays, are pushing back team supporters in the company, as well as the baseball people. The result was the draft budget cut to a point of the baseball people being forced to make hard choices, including choices they probably did not want to make. The baseball people did a salvage job, and perhaps even made a strike back at the suits. Not everyone realizes how ugly and vicious these internal power struggles can be once they start.




bball12 - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#205407) #
I guess what confuses me is why so many people here are surprised by any of this.

A small market team doesnt have an endless supply of money.

When you spend $125M on a player like Vernon Wells - or you spend millions on the 2007 and 2008 draft and come up empty - sooner or later - the money guys have to step in.

This isnt the New York Yankees - where mistakes like that are just washed away.

There is a real cost associated with making bad decisions. IMO.




James W - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#205408) #
You're going to have to explain how the 2007 draft "came up empty".  Rzepczynski already looks good, even though he should be in AA, and Brett Cecil pitches pretty good when not facing Boston (even though he shouldn't be above AAA).  That sounds non-empty to me.
bball12 - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#205409) #
You are right - those two guys have done really really well. 

Unfortunately - thats it. Literally.

I dont know how anyone could - honestly - sit there and say that good financial decisions have been made vis a vis the last 3 drafts.

You cant throw tens of millions of dollars away in 3 years - and expect everything to stay status quo.

I look at the first 5 rounds of the 2007 and 2008 drafts - and its just had to accept. Its not funny at all.

Add to that - some bad luck with some really fine pitching prospects - and the Franchise killing contract of Vernon Wells - and you have what we have now.

It really isnt more complicated than that for a small market team like the Jays






metafour - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#205410) #
You are right - those two guys have done really really well. 

Unfortunately - thats it. Literally.


Thats how the MLB draft works.  You pick a ton of guys and if 2-3 work out your draft is a success.  Rzepcynski and Cecil alone are going to pay off the money spent in that draft, and theres still a few guys who are far from done (Arenciabia, Emaus, Mills...even Magnuson who has turned it back on after being moved back into the bullpen) and can play roles on an MLB team. 
Richard S.S. - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#205411) #
The Blue Jays spent $4,075,700 signing (20, 104, 130, 160, 190, 220, 250, 280, 310 and 550) 10 picks.  How much did they spend signing the other 24 picks?  Exactly what was the maximum total they were allowed to spend?   Why not sign 640, 910, 1000, 1180-1510, at least the High School picks?  So many questions.
bball12 - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#205412) #
Sorry Metaphor - but I dont agree.

That may be how the draft works for the Blue Jays - but not for alot of other teams.

Again - I doubt there is anyone that can say - with a straight face - that the 2007 and 2008 draft has panned out well.

Certainly more time to go - but not as much time as there was a few years ago.
Alot of money - and it aint looking too good right now.
I remember alot of the posts - and the hype. Most of which turned out to be nothing more than internet air bubbles.
Now - the hype is gone - and the only thing left is reality.

Hype doesnt produce winning teams. It never does.
Only Performance on the field can do that.

From the Majors - to the lowest level of the minors - I dont see much performance.
I see alot of money spent - but virtually no results.

And now - everyone is wondering why the money spigot is being constrained.
If you had the checkbook - and you have watched the recent performance - you might think twice about writing out another big check too.

Just my opinion.







TamRa - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#205413) #

I look at the first 5 rounds of the 2007 and 2008 drafts - and its just had to accept. Its not funny at all.

LOL! SOOOOOOOOOOOOO Classic Jays "fan"


Look, there are a dozen EASY ways to be a cynic about this team, 2 dozen OBVIOUS things you can rightly say "WTF?" about.

BUT

Instead of that you look at the results of drafts which haven't REMOTELY had time to reach fruition and whine.

There have only been 2 seasons of baseball for one of those drafts, and one season for the other - what do you expect? This isn't the friggin NFL

Even so, lets look at the 10 players selected in the first five rounds for the Jays in 2007-

!2 players (by my count) from that draft have at least appeared in the majors, 3 of them Blue Jays

Aherns - not yet 21 and you've apparently written him off
Arencibia - reached AAA one full season after being drafted and he's a disappointment to you
Cecil - pitching and pitching well in the majors 2 years after being drafted
Jackson - not yet 21, fighting an injury, and "hard to accept"
Magnuson - not much expected (although Law really liked him) but he's pitching well this year and shouldn't be a source of dsappointment
Tolisano - another guy not yet 21
Eiland - Ditto (although I have to admit he's troubling me some)
Farina - this seems to be the guy we CAN start to call a bust maybe, unless there's an injury a 23 year old reliever in A bal should be doing a lot better
Mills - Reached AAA in less than 2 seasons
Rzep - In the majors and pitching very well

So 10 guys - 2 in the majors (and another one who made an apperance); 2 in AAA, and 4 of the other 6 not yet 21 years old...

And this draft saddens you?

2008?

For cryin out loud man it's been basically ONE YEAR!

Even so you have one guy at AA, another at High A (at 19) and only one of the other three looking lost (another 19 year old)

It's exactly this sort os silliness that does nothing to aid debate about the Jays. One can't discuss the legitimate complaints for having to wade through nonsensical wrongheaded complaints.

Why not, for instance, tell us how bad the 2005 draft was? 'Cause it was. Romero was a top 10 pick so its not special he turned out well. Out of 49 other players listed only two have a whisper of a hope of making the majors in any capacity and one of those is only a whisper.

The 2005 draft sucked. But you are complaining about 2 drafts that we can't possibly BEGIN to reach any conclusions about.



It's just silly.
TamRa - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#205414) #
The signing should never be an either/or situation. The budget should be set at a high enough level to sign all of the drafted players.

But no team EVER signs all there drafted players and I seriously doubt any team ever budgets to sign them all - they know full well some won't sign.

I don't entierly dismiss your power-struggle thesis but I don't think the draft budget says much one way or the other about the reality of that. The Jays went OVER what they probably were prepared to spend on some lower round guys because they had "found money" particularly from Barrett. But if they had signed the Unsigned Three, odds are that even without a Webb or a Hutchenson they would have been quite content that they had a productive draft.

Now, in theory, I quite agree with the oft-repeated (among fans and some writers) claim that teams act foolishly by blowing millions on mediocre major leaguers and penny-pinching on the draft and international signings. I agree that a team would be smart to pour a lot of money into that area even at the expense of, for instance, a $2 millon reserve infielder.
I think it would be WORTH a fire sale if the Jays would take the opportunity to re-set their philosophy to that model.

BUT

Pretty much NO team does that so I find it a lot less of a black mark against the jays that they don't either.

westcoast dude - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#205415) #
Trystan Magnuson deserves a September call up, if only because of the issues in the bullpen.  He's smart and he's a class act.  This 'pen needs serious help, and Magnuson is just what the doctor ordered: couth it up.
bball12 - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#205416) #
I think the drafts for pitching prospects have been great.
I think the drafts for position players have been absolutely terrible.

I understand your concept of debate. You dont like the other side of it. Amd thats okay.

But I still dont get it. You were all reaching conclusions about the 2007 and 2008 draft right after they occurred.
Its been almost 3 years now.

I read post after post about the next coming of Willie Mays - and Chiipper Jones.

Now- as reality has set in - there "hasnt been enough time" - "We cant possibly BEGIN to reach conclusions".

You guys are too much. LOL

Bottom line - Alot of money - and aside form the pitching - no performance.
Zippo.

Simple as that - and sorry if that doesnt qualify as acceptable debate.

TamRa - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#205417) #
But I still dont get it. You were all reaching conclusions about the 2007 and 2008 draft right after they occurred.
Its been almost 3 years now.


you know how to read a calander, right? 26 months doesn't constitue "almost three years" in any country of which I'm aware.

There's a pretty big difference in saying "X looks promising and he MIGHT be a really good player" when he's 18 and saying "X is a failure" when he's 20.

IF your argument is "I am disappointed that these guys SO FAR are not living up to their clippings - then all I have to say is "Amen brother"

IF your argument is "the draft was a failure because none of those guys are gonna be worth a damn" then I think thats just childish and silly.

which one are you arguing?


I read post after post about the next coming of Willie Mays - and Chiipper Jones.


Wille Mays? Really? I kinda doubt that.

Chipper Jones - some scouts compared Aherns' tools to Jones (as a "poor man's" version) - so what, we should NOT quote scouts opinions when discussing a player? Or the Jays should only draft guys never compared to anyone? what exactly is your argument here?

that everyone but you was convinced Ahers WAS inevitably the next Chipper Jones? Gonna have to find some quotes on that one (outside of maybe MyLegacy whos still of posting is elaborate hyperbole)

I don't think there's anything wrong with something like "It would be great if he lived up to the Chipper Jones comparison" - that's not saying it's what you think WILL happen.

Quite frankly, I DO think it's more liekly than not that Aherns fails as of what we know right now - But I also remember how sure most of us were that Romero was a failure oen and two years ago too. so I'm gonna give him a couple more years before I write him off.

Oddly, I don't see how that's not a perfectly reasonable conclusion.

Two years ago when the draft happened, no one said "ten of these guys will make the majors and be great players" - we simply commented on the (true) point that there were players with legitimate skills there.

Now, as it turned out, the guy (speaking of the hitters here) with the highest praise is hurt, the guy who was everyone's pet "sleeper" (Eiland) is looking like he can't hit, and the guy no one paid any attention to (Emaus) has well exceeded expectations so far.

Obviously - as has been said 10,000 times - it's a crapshoot. but if you are building your case around the fact that because we had the temerity to guess about the future based on scouting reports, that's weak. that pretty much exactly what EVERY person who pays any attention to the draft and the minors does.

Again, if you are doing the same thing when you say "I don't think we are seeing any results from those highly touted guys and they will probably fail" - bully for you, carry on.

But the tone of your post is that we can essentially close the book on those guys and there is NO chance we'll see any good from them - THAT is what I am dismissing.

It's not a matter of what is acceptable debate, it's a matter of being rational. I'm NOT suggesting you don't have the right to draw some conclusions - just pointing out that it's too early to reach a FINAL conclusion.

ramone - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#205419) #
Anybody read the article from Bob Elliot saying that the Jays could have traded Rios to the Cards for half of the offer that they presented for Halladay and taken on his salary as well before the Cards got Holliday.  It's just one bad move after another this year.
metafour - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#205420) #
I see alot of money spent - but virtually no results.


Why do you keep saying this?

We didn't spend "a lot of money" in either of the two drafts you are talking about, in fact, we've pretty much stuck to slot with almost every pick.  In 2007 we spent more money than usual but that is only because we had a shit-load of extra picks (like we will next year).

In 2007 we spent roughly $6.32 million within the first 10 rounds.  Out of that we already have two likely mid-rotation starters (Rzep and Cecil), a backup catcher with power at worst (Arencibia), a decent reliever at worst (Mills), and a utility infielder at worst (Emaus).  Thats not even counting anyone else who still could easily turn it around, FWIW Mike McDade is hitting pretty well this year.

All of those guys will be making next to nothing for several seasons.  When you look at how much production you're getting there for a mere $6.3 million its not even close: that draft has paid for itself and then some.

Why do you think the small-market teams in baseball are now spending as much and even more than the Yankees and Red Sox in the draft? Because for what you pay it is by far the cheapest way to build your team.  The general fan population hasn't caught on to this (ie: "Why should you pay millions of dollars to kids who may never even make the team?") but when you actually run down the numbers this is by far the best way to build a team, especially for a team that has a limited budget.  The Royals, Pirates, A's, Rockies and more have all caught on to this which is why those teams have spent hordes of money these past two drafts.  Homegrown talent is the best you can find because it is cheap and you control it for years before they hit abritration, this is why we should be spending $6+ million in EVERY draft no matter how many picks we have.  Its so easy to recoup that $6 million its not even funny.
metafour - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#205421) #
That may be how the draft works for the Blue Jays - but not for alot of other teams.

No, thats EXACTLY how it works.

Go ahead and take a look at the Top 10 rounds of the Red Sox draft in 2007.  I was writing up a post outlining what every player the drafted is doing right now but my ****ing browser crashed and I'm not looking everyone back up again.

Short version:

They have two guys past A+ ball...one of them is doing well as a reliever in AA, the other was a completely average starter in AA and has been terrible in two starts in AAA.

Everyone else is in A+ ball or LOWER (they have a lot of guys in straight A-ball), and many of them are just doing alright in those low levels.

Their top pick (Hagadone) was just traded to the Indians in the deal for Martinez...he's in A-ball after blowing his arm out last year, he's doing well but he's certainly not close to the majors.

We have two pitchers already pitching well in the majors and they have one guy past AA, and that one guy is completely average and isn't even as good as Mills.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draftdb/2007team.php?team=BOS
TamRa - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#205423) #
Anybody read the article from Bob Elliot saying that the Jays could have traded Rios to the Cards for half of the offer that they presented for Halladay and taken on his salary as well before the Cards got Holliday.  It's just one bad move after another this year.


That smells like 19 different breeds of BS.

I could believe JP was a bigger moron than Bavasi and i wouldn't believe that story.

That said, if it were possible to prove that it were true, I'd move right to the front of the "fire JP" movement

But it's just too goofy for words. there's absolutely no logic to the idea that their minds would change so radically in only three weeks.

The ONLY logic would be that Rogers dropped the mother of all hammers on ALL the budgets AFTER August 1 which would mean several things should have happened this month that haven't yet. It would also mean there wouldn't be a WHISPER about increased payrolls from anyone and it would mean a gigantic firesale in the offseason but most of all it would mean that Rogers really had turned into a collosally incompetent owner since if you want to make draconian cuts you don't wait until AFTER the deadline.

So, yeah, no credibility there, IMO.

bball12 - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#205424) #
You will probably notice a few things about my posts.

I dont make assumptions about JP or Toronto management - or what could have been and what should have been. I think all of that stuff is fun for a blog or an internet forum or whatever in cyber world - but I have no real interest in it.
Most everyone that posts about being in a senior position in the sports world is just talking smack anyway - because they have never done it themselves. They are just posting cyber thoughts - with absolutely zero real world experience.

It is - however - fun to read for a minute or two - but then it gets old.

I - pretty much - just stick to performance.
Pay for Play. Not Pay for Hype.

I dont like Hype - I like results.

I go to the games - and I watch.
If someone plays poorly - I dont make excuses for them.

I am not naive enough to think that hype doesnt pay - please dont get me wrong. I know it does.

But Hype - with no performance - gets old quick as well. The clock keeps ticking - and the excuses start to get old as well.

Aside from our pitching prospects - the Bottom Line is there for all to see - whether you want to see it or not - our 2007 and 2008 early round Position Player prospects have not performed well. That is a fact.

Hopefully - for all them - they will in the future.





Wayne H. - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#205425) #
I don't consider money spent in the draft on young players wasteful. I consider it a powerful investment in the future of the team. By the logic of the anti-spending on the draft crowd, no business should ever hire anyone with no experience. No team, under the same logic, should ever trade for unproven prospects. That is just pure nonsense.

The draft is the cheapest and most effective way to get impact young talent into an organization. Two good players from a draft pays for the entire draft, while filling two spots in the lineup cheaply. The Jays, under the very under rated scouting director Jon Lalonde have done extremely well in identifying players. Up until this year, they have done very well in signing them. I see the 2007 draft as a huge success. Today. It is a success if even no more players appear beyond Cecil and Zep. The rest of the prospects are now gravy.

WillRain scolded me for saying the Jays should run the table and sign all of their prospects, since no other team does so. I suggest doing precisely that, and sign them all. Out of those forgotten prospects, a gem might appear who pays for the rest as well. The draft thinking is far too conventional. I think the Jays need to be more innovative in the draft. Along with their proven skills, that I consider to be very good, they should add more innovation. That could include signing every pick, going for the presumed unsignable and signing them regardless, and even considering adding an extra rookie league farm team to place them for development. There are probably many out of the box ideas that could be tried successfully. This is no time for tired out conventional thinking or bean counting.

To compete in the AL East, the only real chance of success is through adding impact talent through the draft, and signing them. The loss of Eli and Paxton over an alleged mere $2 million is inexcusable. That is utility player money for a potential number 2 starter, and a potential mid rotation starter or solid reliever. At worst, you lose the price of a utility player. That is a sound investment in my opinion.

I am a believer in drafting and signing the best available players, and in signing the best available international prospects. That is the best and most cost effective route to success in the AL East. The Jon Lalonde scouting department are proven successes at drafting. They just need their efforts rewarded by the team, and their selections signed.

Too bad that the bean counters don't see it that way.

Spifficus - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#205426) #

the Bottom Line is there for all to see - whether you want to see it or not - our 2007 and 2008 early round Position Player prospects have not performed well. That is a fact.

Define well. There are some who are pretty much on track, such as Thames (when he can make it on the field), McDade, Tolisano, Sobolewski, Pastornicky and Cooper (considering he's a league-average bat at AA in his first full season). Eiland, Brisker and Wilson were all high-upside crap shoots, and none have panned out so far (though I'm less pessimistic about Wilson). Ahearns has not impressed, but still has time to turn it around, and Jackson's bat has retained the inconsistencies that it had when drafted.

No, we haven't had any hitter from either top-10 tear through the minors (except JPA, who stalled this year in AAA at 23), but most have performed to expectations. Is that 'well'? We haven't really given enough time for breakouts yet, so it's going to have to do.

bball12 - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#205427) #
Its hard to argue with many of the points you make - most of which are obvious to anyone who follows the game.
The draft - an investment in the future - drafting the best available etc...
All just common sense.

And the success with Cecil and Zep - I am glad for them and for the Jays. Its great to see these young men achieve the way they have. And the Jays scouting department seems to have a great eye for pitching talent. A consistently great eye.

On the other hand - there are old fashioned guys like me.

I go to a game.
I watch the Top pick position players from the 2007 and 2008 draft - and they dont play well.
Simple as that. They do not play well.

For some - its Year 3 in Pro ball. Count your months out any way you like - Its Year 3. And Year 3 is just about over.
Sooner or later - all the talk and the hype and the excuses cease to maintain any credibility or relevance.

Only performance can dictate whether a draft has been successful.
So far - I think any reasonable person would have to admit that it is not panning out very well.














 


Spifficus - Saturday, August 22 2009 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#205428) #

I watch the Top pick position players from the 2007 and 2008 draft - and they dont play well.

Who are you thinking of with blanket statements like this? There are examples of hitters who have performed to expectations, give or take, in the top 10 of each draft. There are also ones that haven't. It could be that you're either defining 'well' or 'early draft picks' differently and coming up with a different subset.

TamRa - Sunday, August 23 2009 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#205444) #
I go to a game.
I watch the Top pick position players from the 2007 and 2008 draft - and they dont play well.
Simple as that. They do not play well.


Wait - you go to games in New Hampshire AND Dunedin?


bball12 - Sunday, August 23 2009 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#205445) #
Yes - I do.

I have been to Tampa twice this year - each time for about 4 days. It was fun and I love the Clearwater Beach area.

I have also been to Manchester - 3 times - I have a good buddy that lives close by - so its always fun to go there. Hw has a farm there - and its cool.

And - believe it or not - I have also been to Auburn twice this summer. Again - a buddy that lives pretty close by.

Do you want to know what I eat for breakfast as well. LOL

 



Spifficus - Sunday, August 23 2009 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#205455) #

"Wait - you go to games in New Hampshire AND Dunedin?"

Yes - I do.

Nice. Did you get a chance to see Emaus and/or Sobolewski outside of their June struggles? Or perhaps Thames. Those, along with Cooper and Arencibia are the 2007/08 drafted hitters that have had success. Granted, it has required qualification this year (or a look back to last year in Arencibia's case). Hope your view of them wasn't spoiled by unfortunate timing.

As for breakfast, I'm betting cereal and a bagel, with coffee. Sometimes OJ.

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