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The Jays' affiliates need help! Too bad they won't be getting it from three of their top 4 picks, as James Paxton, Jake Eliopolous, and Jake Barrett failed to sign on draft deadline day.


Albuquerque 4 at Las Vegas 3

Fabio Castro pitched well, allowing 2 runs in 7 innings. Unfortunately, the bullpen couldn't hold Albuquerque at bay, and the 51s lost a squeaker, 4-3. Kevin Howard singled, homered and walked, while Angel Sanchez, Howie Clark and Buck Coats each reached base twice.

New Hampshire - scheduled day off

Brevard County 8 at Dunedin 3

Starter Vincent Bongiovanni had a rough outing, allowing 7 earned runs on 8 baserunners over 4 innings, and the D-Jays could never recover. Matt Liuzza did his best, with 2 singles and 2 RBIs, but his teammates didn't help much; Dunedin didn't have a single extra-base hit on the night (though they did manage 6 hits and 6 walks). The bullpen was pretty good: though they allowed 10 base-runners in 5 innings, that only led to 1 run.

Great Lakes 7 at Lansing 5

Since finally making it to Lansing, Joel Carreno has been very good, but tonight was an off-night. In 5 innings, Carreno allowed 5 runs on 8 hits and 2 walks while striking out 4. The Lugnuts actually scored 5 runs of their own to get Carreno off the hook, but Jason "The Other" Roenicke coughed up the tie in his 3rd inning of work. Lots of Nuts had good days at the plate: Brian Van Kirk homered and walked twice, Johermyn Chavez had 3 hits including a double, and Mike McDade drove in 2 on 2 singles and a double.

Auburn - scheduled day off

GCL Yankees 4 at GCL Jays 2

If you're wondering why this game was only 8 innings long, I'm pretty sure it was shortened by rain, since the play-by-play recap ends with the GCL Jays having a runner on first with nobody out in the bottom of the eighth. Obviously, the next batter would have homered to tie this one up! I call shenanigans. Anyway, Eric Thames had the best day for the Baby Jays - he doubled and walked in 2 trips, and scored a run, while Jack Murphy singled and walked twice. Starter Carlos "the Pineapple" Pina only went 4 1/3 innings, but was somewhat effective, allowing 2 runs on 7 baserunners and striking out 5.

Three Stars!
3. Brian Van Kirk
2. Kevin Howard
1. Fabio "lous" Castro
The Farm Takes an 0-Fer | 55 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
ramone - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 01:27 AM EDT (#204970) #
"From Keith Law (1:02 a.m. ET): The Blue Jays did not sign their three remaining day-one picks -- James Paxton, Jake Barrett or Jake Eliopoulos. Paxton returns to the University of Kentucky, where a more consistent spring would put him in top-10 consideration. Barrett will attend Arizona State University and could be a first-round pick in 2012. Eliopoulos has more options and could attend Long Beach State or a junior college; the latter option would put him in next year's draft, and with a little more velocity he could go in the top 50 picks. Toronto did spend some of their savings on Daniel Webb and Drew Hutchison, but it's hard to recover from missing three early signings as the Jays did."
LouisvilleJayFan - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 07:41 AM EDT (#204977) #
The Paxton failure really bums me out.
Jevant - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 08:13 AM EDT (#204978) #
JaysTalk with Wilner tonight will be one of the worst in a long time, especially should the Jays lose.

Forkball - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 08:22 AM EDT (#204980) #
It'd be interesting to see how much of a difference there was with their offers (although that's probably never coming out).  The Jays were tossing around well over slot money so it makes you wonder if those players were looking for some insane amount.  But the front office has to do a better job of knowing what players are looking for before picking them.  One non-signing is understandable, two is questionable, but three is just an outright bad job.

Do the Jays get to re-pick for any or all of the un-signed picks next year?  I'm guessing that's their fallback now?
whiterasta80 - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#204985) #

I'm so furious about Paxson its not even funny. There is absolutely no rationale for drafting a Boras client that you have no intention of signing unless your farm system is stacked.  I've been frustrated with the AL East connundrum for years, and have been mad that JP was kept in charge for so long. However, the Paxson decision came from above... AFTER we made the pick.  I swear the only things keeping me tied to this club right now are Roy (how long?) and October 23, 1993.  The idea of having a high level Canadian player to follow through the minors really excited me, and that was just ripped away. Newsflash Rogers, these flashback weekends are only going to interest me for so long. 

The worst part is that I just moved from London (where the Tigers were an option) to Ottawa.  God!!! How nice would it be to have the Expos right now... I guess I could follow the Mets?

ayjackson - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#204986) #

There were 2 unsigned first rounders (not including Crow, who didn't face a deadline yesterday), 2 unsigned 1s rounders, 2 unsigned second rounders and 3 unsigned third rounders.

So that's 9 unsigned players from the first three rounds and the Jays and Rays accounted for 5 of them.  Not the way to compete in the AL East.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Jays soured on Eliopoulis at that slot after watching him throw some more (little was known about him at the time of the draft), but selecting known overslot players like Paxson and Barrett and then not closing the deals is a mistake.

Moe - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#204987) #
Well, with Paxton being a Boras client, I could see it just not working even if they tried. What confuses me more is Barrett. Giving him late 1st round money should have been enough? With Eliopoulis I could see they just decided he is not worth it going to high and just went with the pick for next year.

Anyone know how next year's draft projects? I remember this one was called weak around draft time. Say the Jays really were going out signing FA this off-season (unlikely maybe, but stay with me)  then they would loose their 2nd rounder and maybe 3rd rounder (1st rd should be safe). So, if next year's draft project to be deep, that could explain Eliopoulis. However, it does not explain Barrett (or will the JAys get a compensation here too?).

Nevertheless, I have a problem with the notion that the Jays were just too cheap to sign them. If they don't sign one, that leaves a bit more for the rest (I know they spend quite a bit on later picks), so getting Barrett should have been financially feasible. The other reason why it doesn't make sense is if the team plans on going the Tampa route, they will need to spend on the draft.


ayjackson - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#204988) #
The Jays will get a third round supplemental for Barrett.  Apparently, Barrett was in for a physical on the weekend.  Very curious that they couldn't get the deal done, especially with Paxton's million being freed up.
Moe - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#204989) #
So they draft one they can't sign (Paxton), one they stop to like after 2 weeks (Eliopoulis), and one who turned out injured (Barrett)? If that were true, that would be ridiculously bad luck.

whiterasta80 - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#204990) #

You know, I actually thought that it would be a good idea to stockpile picks for next years draft by not signing Elio and Barrett (both of whom I never liked as picks). Of course, I also wanted to use that money to ensure that Paxson signed. So given that neither signed, not signing Paxson looks even more BRUTAL to me on the surface.  Now, if the Jays legitimitely feel that Paxson was asking for too much, then they should publicize that number.  It would be a good strategy to save PR, and if its over 7 million, then I'll take back everything I've said today. Its not like we have to worry about angering Boras in the future anyway (we never deal with him).

whiterasta80 - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#204991) #
Wow 7?  I think I meant 3... Not sure why I wrote 7 million
Ozzieball - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#204995) #
I guess I could follow the Mets?

Ahahahaha. And you think the Jays are a frustrating team to follow?

Also they are on the verge of being a top-10 pick for next year's draft which gives them a high probability of dealing with a Boras guy. One of the things I wondered about with the Paxton dealing was that the Jays were trying to make a point that they would not be pushed around even if they were going over slot. Of course while that would be an explanation, it falls well short of justification.
timpinder - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#204997) #

I just got back from musky fishing up north, went to this site, and learned that the Jays didn't sign their 1st round supplemental, 2nd round, or 3 round picks.  I thought they were going to win by going over slot with high ceiling guys in the draft?  What a slap in the face.  I am done with this team, and I've been a fan since I was a child.  I've purchased flex packs and driven to Toronto at least 10 times every year until this year.  I've only been to Rogers Centre once this year and I don't plan on going back (Comerica is only 30 minutes farther, a nicer park and not ridiculously priced).  For the first time in about 15 years I've found myself watching something else on TV even when there was a Jays' game on.  I even cancelled an order of the latest jersey I bought.  The Jays might have saved a little money by not signing Paxton, but if there are more frustrated fans out there like me they'll be losing more and more money as fans lose interest and spend their money elsewhere.  This franchise has no plan and has shown no real commitment to winning.  Maybe my wife and I will take our Irish heritage to Fenway next year.

jmoney - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#204999) #
I think I'll have the Jays on the tube when I'm at work for background noise and that's it. Done with this team until we get some real ownership.
ramone - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#205007) #

While not related to the overall negative vibe of the non-signings, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reports that Snider has been called up:

NOTE -- 51s outfielder Travis Snider didn't start for Las Vegas and is expected to join the Blue Jays today. Toronto's top prospect, Snider was hitting .337 with 14 homers and 40 RBIs in 48 games and 17-game hit streak.

This has not been mentioned any where else that I can find, so it may be innaccurate.

Forkball - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#205009) #
Snider didn't play last night so that makes sense.
Jdog - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#205010) #
I'm not too dissapointed in the Paxton and Eli nonsigns. Paxton has a nice fastball and all but he put up and ERA over 5.00 in college ball last year and he probably wanted 2 million, make the guy go back to school and prove that he can get hitters out and earn a big bonus. I really would have liked to see Barrett sign though, he seems like a very promising young pitcher.
Mike D - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#205015) #
Anthopoulos told the FAN today that the team's strategy would remain "best player available" going forward regardless of slot.  He said that to expect high-upside drafting and some non-signing draft choices in future, with the belief that the organization will come out stronger through more high-end talent.
westcoast dude - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#205017) #
It's all good: Marisnick signed.  If Jake can keep it together and not get distracted, he could be damn good, as Mark Twain might say.  We have a great group of California boys led by Ricky, Aaron and Zep, and Jake could be the latest piece in the puzzle.  Too bad about the unsigned boys; maybe better luck next year.  If Marisnick turns out anything like his promise, there will be fireworks galore.
whiterasta80 - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#205019) #

I only picked the Mets because they're the next closest (non-Yankee) team.  I'm just looking for alternatives for the first time in my 25 years of following the Jays. That's what I've been driven to, through a combination of the AL East Curse, and JP Riccardi and his/management's terrible PR decisions (Dunn, announcing Halladay, BJ Ryan's "back...). 

Bringing up Snider would have been a good PR decision, if it happened two months ago.  Now its just a case of too little too late. Besides, super 2 only matters if you're not planning on paying the guy what he's worth.

In yet another shining example of bad PR, Anthopolous has got alot of nerve going on the radio and saying what he said a day after the team's actions suggest (once again) that they're gonna be cheap. Actions speak louder than words and we got Jenkins (who was an easy-sign guy) and let all of the above slot guys walk.  Couple that with Rios, Rolen, and the Halladay talk and we're looking at a cheap organization.

The funny thing is, as I've said in the past, I don't blame Rogers for this strategy as long as we're in the AL East.  I'd do the same thing until MLB realized there was something wrong. But you have to give the fans SOMETHING. You simply can't couple a losing season (check) with the removal of all hope for the following year (check), and the removal of all long term hope via a poor draft (check).  If you lose 90 games and trade your 2 best players- you had better make sure you draft well so that you don't completely screw your hardcore fans.

And most of all, I would prefer not to have sunshine blown up my butt while they're screwing us. If I want sunshine and BS I'll tune into JaysTalk. 

rtcaino - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 02:40 PM EDT (#205020) #
Wow lots of disappointment on this day. I may have to check out a Raps board to cheer myself up before my dentist appt.

I would be very curious to hear further information about what the demands were, and possibly what that physical looked like. Of the bunch, our first pick was the most impressive.

Perhaps some of the later picks were taken as insurance against not signing the higher picks. If the top guys aren't being reasonable, we can dedicate the cash to some later picks.

I will largely reserve judgement until I know more information. I am interested to hear Alex A's interview on the fan. Hopefully they post the audio.

Obviously it is best to get the talent in the system and get them developing. However, with compensation available I'm less upset about loosing these guys.

For the next few days i advise that certain posters avoid ledges, sharp objects and to change internet providers only when recieving a better deal. (Though my Mom always hated Rogers, and she couldn't name 3 Blue Jays - so maybe they just suck?)
Mylegacy - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#205021) #
Gloom? we don't need no stinkin' gloom!

We got Snider commin' to the bigs, we got Overbay discovering his inner ARod, we've got Romero gonna take Sox scalps tonight AND despite EVERYTHING JP did to STOP it - the Sun rose and the world continues to turn.

AND NEXT JUNE - we get our first draft choice, a first from whomever takes Scutaro, 3 supplemental first draft choices (1 for Scoots and two for our non signed picks) and a supplemental for Barajas. That's SIX first - or supplemental 1st picks - all we gotta do is sign two or three of them and JP will be King Of The Hill again.

Tonight is night one of our sweep of the hated Red Sox - I smell blood - lets bury the bastards - ARE YOU WITH ME! CHARGE!!!!

TamRa - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#205022) #
JP talked to Rod Bradford of Weei

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2009/08/18/ricciardi-jays-weather-the-storm/

Some quotes-

RB: Have the challenges of building a team in this division surprised you over the years?

JP: It’s not a a surprise. Nothing has changed. From the day I took the job in Toronto the Red Sox changed, with the new ownership coming in. All of a sudden you didn’t have to worry just about the Yankees, you had to worry about two super teams as far as having to be able to do things. The division has only gotten harder, but it’s a great division in because we like competing against those guys. It’s not easy, but anything you strive to do in life is not going to be easy.

I guess I'm weak - I'd rather get into the playoffs over Detroit and Chicago and THEN beat the Yankees if I can.

RB: How do you view your team after all of this dust has cleared?

JP: We like our team, we really do. We like the nucleus we have in place. We think Hill and Lind are going to be stars and are on their way. We think Snider is going to be a very good player. We like our team. We have a very good catcher in Eric Seivert coming. We like our arms on the mound. There’s a lot of really good things happening here.

Eric Seivert? I can only assume Bradford mis-heard "Arencibia" but that's...pretty lame.

This is not a division you can be good in, you have to be great in it to make the playoffs. We’ve been good the last three years. The ownership has been great to us. They’ve allowed us to spend some money over the last three years, and the last three years we were high 80’s in wins. We’re not good enough to win the division.

What we have to do is take a step back and start looking at ways that we can start building to get great. I think with the Cecils and the Romeros and all the young arms we have, along with the Hills and the Linds and the players we have coming we have a really good foundation and nucleus to get there. But I think we have to be smart about the fact that right now we’re not great and you have to be great to win this division.

Hearing this a lot lately. Remains to be seen what they'll do about that.

I think it’s extremely important. You have to realize that we’re a club that had a $20 million cut in payroll this year. So with that savings going into next year, along with the Rolen savings along with the players we acquired for Rolen, we were able to hopefully utilize that money to address some of our needs. I’ll only be able to answer the question over the next five years how that money works in our favor.

What ho? Is this a public semi-conformation that the payroll will rise? lets work this out a bit - let us say, for the sake of discussion, that the "normal" payroll is roughly $100 million (as in 2008). So they bank $20 million in 2009, and add it to the "normal" figure in 2010 - that's $120 million.

Is that what he's implying here? Because otherwise the "savings going into next year" makes no sense - even if they add $20 to the $80 they spent this year, that only gets back to the $100 million of 2008....if they only went to $100 it wouldn't be "banked" money to be used later but "saved" money gone back to Rogers.

We have a really good foundation here. Our ownership is great. Our ownership isn’t one that gives into pressure and understands that it’s a long haul and understands there’s a method to the madness. We’re pretty confident we’re going to be OK going forward. Every year brings different challenges and hopefully one of these years we’ll stay healthy to put the right players out there.

He doesn't talk like a guy who expects to be fired but then I suppose no one ever does.

ayjackson - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#205024) #

The Jays spent $3.7m in the first 10 rounds of the draft, good for 23rd spot in the Majors.

Though I do feel better having listened to the Anthopoulos interview.

rtcaino - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#205025) #
We can put the extra money into signing all of our 6 first rounders above slot... After we sign some all-stars!

Gotta go - I'm going to go do that thing I have been meaning to do for ages, but putting off because I was feeling down > right after I call everyone I care about and tell them how important they are to me!
China fan - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#205026) #

JP reveals his master plan:  "What we have to do is take a step back...."

Well, he's certainly achieved that.  Or several steps back.  So now we are moving forward by moving backward.  Classic JP double-speak.  He would have been a good military propagandist during Vietnam:   "We saved the village by burning it...."

 

 

China fan - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#205028) #
Meanwhile, JP confirms that Rogers imposed a $20-million payroll cut on the team this year -- even as the Star claims that Rogers was willing to ADD an extra $20-million this year.   Fun with numbers!   Their financial figures are so confusing and opaque that they can mean whatever JP says they mean.  He says the $20-million doesn't include the Rolen savings, and then he forgets to mention the Rios dumping and the failed draft signings and the likely dumping of Halladay.   So the payroll will be down to $60 or $70 million but they'll have $40 or $50 million in savings!  Which they can add in 2010, or subtract, or divide or multiply.  Bottom line: let's wait for results in the offseason before we get too excited about a possible payroll increase.  If they sign Scutaro and extend Halladay and sign a free agent or two, then I might believe that the payroll is increasing.   Otherwise it's all mumbo-jumbo, intended to confuse us.
ayjackson - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#205029) #
mike (DC) [via mobile]

Bleakest story-"The Road" by McCarthy; "Nineteen Eighty Four" by Orwell or the Blue Jays by Riccardi?

Keith Law   (3:34 PM)

Winner! I don't think it's controversial to say they had the worst draft this year. They didn't sign three of their top five picks and I don't see where they made up for it afterwards. (Yes, they spent a little on Webb and Hutchison, but Webb was awful this spring, I had a cross-checker threaten bodily harm if he ever saw Webb on a top 100 list of mine for this draft.) They never made a serious run at Barrett and they didn't sign Eliopoulos over a fairly trivial (in my opinion) amount of money. I still have plenty of friends in that organization and I'm sure I'll catch hell from them now, but I can't justify their strategy in this draft.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#205030) #
The Jays have now drafted centerfielders early in each of the last 3 drafts- Eric Eiland, Kenny Wilson and Jacob Marisnick.  You really should be able to get a hit on one out of the three, but it sometimes doesn't work out that way.
damos - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#205031) #
Keith Law sez:

"I don't think it's controversial to say they had the worst draft this year. They didn't sign three of their top five picks and I don't see where they made up for it afterwards. (Yes, they spent a little on Webb and Hutchison, but Webb was awful this spring, I had a cross-checker threaten bodily harm if he ever saw Webb on a top 100 list of mine for this draft.) They never made a serious run at Barrett and they didn't sign Eliopoulos over a fairly trivial (in my opinion) amount of money. I still have plenty of friends in that organization and I'm sure I'll catch hell from them now, but I can't justify their strategy in this draft."

The Anthopolous interview did absolutely nothing to make me feel better.  I've been a fan of the Jays since I was a youth & I feel about as bad as I ever have about this team.   Things are really, really bad. 

Olerud363 - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#205034) #

The JP quote about a 20 million dollar pay cut is being taken the wrong way.   What has been said is that there was 20 million this year to work with.  They didn't use it because of all the pitching injuries.  It was a huge surprise that they started hot.  Almost unfortunate because it raised expectations. Everything I have heard indicates there will be money to work with going forward. 

It is to bad that they didn't sign the 3 young pitchers.  But I would bet anything there is more to it then meets the eye.  This is an organization that has an excellent track record in signing and developing young pitchers.   Look at how fast Cecil, and Zep have come along.   Romero is finally working out.   Marcum and Litsh did have Tommy John, but if just one of them recovers we will have huge depth next year. 

After getting a better look at these guys there were probably things that the organization didn't like...  Injury, Salary demands, mechanics, I don't know.  Ofcourse they should of figured this out before the draft.  It is a screw up.  And a major one.  But not the end of the world that everyone is making it out to be.

I believe alot the exciting guys in the lower minors are international signings, Alvarez, Sierra, Chavez, Pierre, Perez.  Wouldn't surprise me if the money went into collecting more of them, and into the draft next year. 

Gerry - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#205052) #

The Jays have promoted Tyler Pastornicky, John Anderson and Matt Daly to Dunedin.  Ryan Goins has been promoted to Lansing to take Pastornicky's spot.  Brian Van Kirk is promoted to New Hampshire.

Tim Collins has been promoted to New Hampshire.

 This gives these players a brief, 3 week, audition at their new level to prepare them for next season.

TamRa - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#205053) #
Totally random thought here - what about the idea that the team had, based on marisnick's bonus, about 4 million ready to spend on the three they didn't sign....why not flip that money over and make a strong run at Sano since it's kind of "mad money" now?


metafour - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#205056) #
why not flip that money over and make a strong run at Sano since it's kind of "mad money" now?


No offense, but if you dont get it by now then I feel kind of bad for you. 

If that money was ever there they would have signed the guys that didn't end up signing.  That money isn't there and its not going to get used on ANYTHING.

The money was never there, otherwise if it came down to it they would have scrapped one of the three and used the savings to fully go after the remaining two (ie: scrap Paxton and easily sign both Eliopolous and Barrett).  The fact that NONE of the three were signed is indication enough of what happened here.
Denoit - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#205058) #

Finally some good news!

greenfrog - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#205061) #
The Jays dumped Rios's $60M contract and the money remaining on Rolen's contract *and* they couldn't manage to sign three of their top four picks? I can understand fans thinking about moving on to greener pastures. And has anyone noticed how the front office often seems to try to distract fans with diversionary tactics? Team tanking? Bring back Cito. Team holding down fourth place? Arbitrarily hold a reunion for the 1992/93 players on, er, the team's 17th WS anniversary. Team unwilling to pay enough to sign their top draft picks? Bring up slugging rookie Travis Snider.

Not only does the front office not get it done on the field, they seem to continually subject fans to disinformation. Personally, I'm sick of it.
JustinD - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#205063) #
The draft picks to me, is inexcusable.

I'm glad Snider is back up, but why is Ruiz batting 6th and Snider 9th? I mean I know the reasoning behind it. I just don't agree with it now if Ruiz is hitting 6th...

rtcaino - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#205064) #
It really depends how things go:

If next years draft is fruitful, and the money is there to sign our guys - perhaps rolling back some draft picks to the following year if the kid is being unreasonable - then great.

If the money we saved this year on salary is spent and nets the franchise a pretty good peice, then great.

If that money disappears, bbox is not going to be a happy place.

We'll see how it works out. It would be great if JP is being truthful when he indicates we'll have money to spend.
TamRa - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#205066) #

No offense, but if you dont get it by now then I feel kind of bad for you. 

If that money was ever there they would have signed the guys that didn't end up signing.  That money isn't there and its not going to get used on ANYTHING.

The money was never there, otherwise if it came down to it they would have scrapped one of the three and used the savings to fully go after the remaining two (ie: scrap Paxton and easily sign both Eliopolous and Barrett).  The fact that NONE of the three were signed is indication enough of what happened here.


No, frankly, the more I think about it the more this popular meme is just BS.

Consider:

When they Jays passed on hard-signs like Kazmir or Porcello, the fans bitch because the Jays were obedient to the slot system and took "safe" signs.

Now that the Jays took hard-signs, the same people bitch that they didn't take players they knew they could sign. Implicit in drafting "hard signs" is that some of them WON'T SIGN.

You CAN'T take the hard over the safe without incurring that risk and taking the hard sign is exactly what a great many Jays fans have been begging for.

Now they got it, and still they cry like little girls.

Likewise, what do fans do when the major league club overpays for, for instance, Frank Thomas or BJ Ryan or Vernon Wells or Alex Rios? they bitch and they moan and they cry that the Jays did what? Paid more than the player was worth!

Now, with three totally unproven draft picks unsigned, what do these same people demand? that the Jays should have spent more than they believed the player was worth.

I.E. - you are pissed that they did NOT do for Paxton that which you are pissed that they DID do for Ryan.

The only thing more inconsistant that the Jays front office is the Jays fan base.

Waveburner - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 08:14 PM EDT (#205071) #

How can even the most naive person on earth even remotely believe ANYTHING that Jays ownership or management says? Now we are to believe the Jays will use these recouped draft picks on similar, high-upside/risk players next year? Just how idiotic are we supposed to be?

If you fail to sign a player with a draft pick you received as compensation from the previous draft-you do NOT receive endless compensation picks. If they don't sign em next year the pick is lost-PERIOD. The picks will be used on easy signability guys-believing anything else goes way beyond gullible. The other choice is to take the high risk sign and either pay through the nose because said draft pick is fully aware the team has no leg to stand on-OR get nothing from a high draft pick. 

And once again the Paxton selection especially is no excuse. Boras clients NEVER lower their demands. If you're not taking that into account your draft strategy is just completely flawed unless your system is stacked and you are willing to gamble. I think the latter pretty clearly does not describe the Jays farm system.. As to people saying the Jays somehow soured on Eli or Barrett between the draft and now without either throwing a professional pitch-then the scouts just aren't doing a good job.  

As for the interview with AA, what is he supposed to say? He's not going to admit to anything that might make the Jays look even more pathetic than they already do. He's the PR at this point.

katman - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#205072) #
WillRain does make some pretty good points. But here's the depressing part - other teams don't seem to have this problem. 9 unsigned players from the first 3 rounds, total for 28 teams. One third - 3 of them - are the Jays' #2 to #4 draft picks. Any way you slice that, it's very depressing. Gotta go with Keith Law for once.

Yes, there is always a risk that hard signs won't. When your team is a major statistical outlier on that front, however, it's only natural to wonder if they brought a knife to a gunfight and ended up with the worst of both worlds. An outcome which hurts that much more given (1) The loss and impending loss of talented players that can make a difference soon; (2) A depleted farm system that has already given up its most promising prospects to the big leagues; and (3) A division in which "good" isn't good enough, you need great.

If you're not signing these high-round, hard picks, where exactly is "great" supposed to come from?

The end result is a team with a reasonable perceptions of: (1) no short term hope; (2) no realistic medium term hope; and (3) a big hit to long term hopes.

There's nothing inconsistent about being upset by that conclusion.

I will say this. It's too early to know if this is a mulligan, a setback or a disaster. The Jays will get picks back next year, and we don't know how the unsigned picks will turn out yet. If the Jays use the recovered picks to hit the jackpot next year, it could all work out well. If the guys they would have drafted all flame out, it will turn out not to matter. But if one or more of them become quality major league players, it will be a setback. And if one or more turn into stars, it will be a *disaster.*
Mike Green - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#205077) #
Pastornicky to Dunedin, and Goins to Lansing tonight.  Pastornicky singled in his first at-bat. 
Jdog - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 08:49 PM EDT (#205080) #
Great Post WillRain, I agree 100%.

Like Ricciardi says when negotiating these deals you have to make an offer that you feel comfortable with and which you think will be enough to get the job done, and then you pretty much have to stick with it, a lot of these draftees wait right up until the deadline hoping to get what they asked for, then when the team doesn't cave they end up signing the offer. Im sure the Jays thought when it came to the deadline the boys would take their big pay day. They didn't. The picks are still their next year, im not sure why everyone is crying so bad.
metafour - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#205087) #
Now, with three totally unproven draft picks unsigned, what do these same people demand? that the Jays should have spent more than they believed the player was worth.

I.E. - you are pissed that they did NOT do for Paxton that which you are pissed that they DID do for Ryan.

The only thing more inconsistant that the Jays front office is the Jays fan base.


Uhm, you wrote all that and completely misunderstood my point.

I'm not blaming anyone in the front office.

Heres what I was inferring:
ROGERS ****ED US

Given everything that has gone on in the past month it is blatantly obvious that the reason why these picks were not signed is because Rogers slashed our draft budget.  We were told one thing at the beginning of the year, we drafted according to what we were told, and since then Rogers has had a fundamental change in their commitment to this team.  Put the big picture together...we went from "yeah we're competing, we're going to go over slot in the draft" to:

- Shopping Halladay
- Trading Rolen (regardless of whether or not he asked to be traded)
- Dumping Rios for absolutely nothing
- Failing to sign 3 of our top picks

ALL within ONE month.  Rogers has pulled out, whether or not they're looking to sell the team is unknown, I certainly hope so because next season is going to be a complete mess if they stay on board.

Paxton, Eliopolous, and Barrett didn't all of a sudden triple their demands.  We knew their demands when we drafted them, and when we drafted them the idea was to pay up.  You cant pay up when your ownership group tells you it wants to go in a different direction.  If you even look at how our signings DID go it points to a specific strategy of money allocation.  By that I mean the way we DID spend money suggests we spent everything we had available:

Priority 1) Signing Jenkins, you cant let a college 1st rounder go who will sign for near slot go unsigned.

Now; our organizational strength in the minors is pitching, and our hitting prospects are looking pretty sad right now.  We just inked our 1st rounder who is another pitcher....with a capped budget you NOW focus on Marisnick and Hobson because you need to beef up our positional prospects.  As we're negotiating those deals it is blatantly obvious we have no more money to sign anyone else big so everything left gets rationed to Webb and Hutchison, two more pitchers who you can sign for considerably less than Paxton, Eliopolous, or Barrett would have signed for.

Our scouts are arguably the best in the league in gaging contract demands, there is absolutely no way we drafted these kids and then found out they were asking for more than we thought.  Everything Keith Law stated today points in this direction as well:

1) He stated a few days ago that he didn't think we'd sign Eliopolous.  Today he stated that we let him go over a "fairly trivial" amount of money.  Remember that this kid is the one we brought on TV, had him pitch in a BJ's jersey in the bullpen...ie: we WANTED to sign him.  Eliopolous' demands were not astronomical.  Why would you do all that and then balk over a few hundred thousand dollars? Simple: the money vanished.

2) He stated that we made no serious move on Barrett at all yesterday.  Again, why make no move? Because you know the money isn't there anymore and Barrett isn't an option if you're going to sign Marisnick, and you HAVE to sign Marisnick because he's our highest drafted positional player.


Beeston, JP, Anthopolous...they're all going to tote the Rogers company line like they've been doing for a while now.  Anthopolous had an interview today and said we could have signed everyone but chose not to.  Thats the stupidest cover-up I've heard in a while and basically confirms that their hands were tied  He stated something along the lines of choosing not to meet demands because it would hurt negotiations with future picks.  First of all, that is complete BS as everyone in the league now goes well over slot and it makes no impact except for maybe in the first round.  Secondly, you gave Marisnick $1 million so what difference at that point does it make if you sign everyone else for over slot? You already broke the slot bubble, if the money was there then signing everyone else for over slot wasn't going to have any impact al all.

The signing of Marisnick in the middle of the day yesterday also HEAVILY points to us not making serious attempts at all on the unsigned guys.  Marisnick's $1 million bonus was huge, if we were still negotiating with guys like Barrett and Eliopolous it would make absolutely no sense to make Marisnick's signing public because both of those guys were drafted ahead of Marisnick and logically would demand for more than he received (Paxton would be asking for more than $1 mill anyway so he wouldn't really be affected).  The Marisnick signing was made public because at that point we knew we were working on a reduced budget and already knew that if we signed Marisnick we wouldn't be able to sign any of the other 2-3.  After we signed Marisnick we knew we were done, we'd used up our money and that was that.

Gerry - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#205096) #

Tim Collins was his usual self in his first AA appearance, three up, three down and two K's. 

Tyler Pastornicky was 2-4 in his Dunedin debut.

TamRa - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 10:18 PM EDT (#205098) #
If you fail to sign a player with a draft pick you received as compensation from the previous draft-you do NOT receive endless compensation picks. If they don't sign em next year the pick is lost-PERIOD. The picks will be used on easy signability guys-believing anything else goes way beyond gullible. The other choice is to take the high risk sign and either pay through the nose because said draft pick is fully aware the team has no leg to stand on-OR get nothing from a high draft pick.

Your analysis is flawed. No team takes ALL high risk players, the Jays didn't consider Jenkins a high risk.

so lets say next year the Jays pick #12, and lose Scutaro to...the cardinals...and for that they get #22 and #40 (just making up these numbers).and their second round pick is #60

Those three picks ARE protected just as this years picks were.

So they get those and they get #38, #69, and #100 for this years' failures.

All that means is that #40 will be a high risk guy and #38 will be a safer guy - odds are one of the two would have been safe anyway - #60 will be high risk and #69 will be safer....as they probably would have been anyway - since you can't afford to go over slot on ALL your picks.

And the same process repeats over and over - the picks you can get back, you take chances with, the ones you can't you play it safe. Of course there was going to be a transition year when they potentially lost picks - 2009.

From now on, they can go into every draft with - assuming there's 2 or 3 who don't sign every year - with 2 or 3 picks to play it safe on and 2 or 3 picks to take chances with.


TamRa - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#205100) #
Given everything that has gone on in the past month it is blatantly obvious that the reason why these picks were not signed is because Rogers slashed our draft budget.  We were told one thing at the beginning of the year, we drafted according to what we were told, and since then Rogers has had a fundamental change in their commitment to this team.  Put the big picture together...we went from "yeah we're competing, we're going to go over slot in the draft" to:

- Shopping Halladay
- Trading Rolen (regardless of whether or not he asked to be traded)
- Dumping Rios for absolutely nothing
- Failing to sign 3 of our top picks

ALL within ONE month.  Rogers has pulled out, whether or not they're looking to sell the team is unknown, I certainly hope so because next season is going to be a complete mess if they stay on board.



that's certainly possible but it's highly freakish if it's true. Big corperations don't generally turn on a dime like that - they budget for a fiscal year and if a change - especially a big dramatic change in philosophy - takes place, it takes place when the new FC starts.

I have no evidence, of course, that they didn't go completely off the beam and change course in mid-season....but it would be such an unprecidented move, both for a big corperation and for a professional major league team, that I do have a hard time imagining it.

That said, I do agree that IF they did there's no prospect for any sanity under such an ownership and we might as well resign ourselves to nonsense until the team is sold.



jerjapan - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 11:02 PM EDT (#205104) #
I am done with this team, and I've been a fan since I was a child.  I've purchased flex packs and driven to Toronto at least 10 times every year until this year.  I've only been to Rogers Centre once this year and I don't plan on going back (Comerica is only 30 minutes farther, a nicer park and not ridiculously priced).  For the first time in about 15 years I've found myself watching something else on TV even when there was a Jays' game on.

Right on Timpinder, I feel the same way.  By grandfather used to take me to games as a kid ... not sure he'd recognize the 'entertainment' between innings at the 'Rogers centre' while we munch on overpriced food and drink lousy coffee.  He always appreciated the gentlemen involved with the organization - Cito, Pat Gillick, Al Widmar.  Not sure that JP fits into this category.  I remember him being appalled by the George Bell 3 million a year contract - now we have Vernon.  Sure, the game, and the times, have changed.  But man, days like this make you feel like baseball is just a business, not an awesome, all-consuming passion.   

Hopefully Rogers will realize that fans like you are leaving the team behind, and that their bottom line will suffer as a result.
Waveburner - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 11:11 PM EDT (#205108) #

How does failing to sign their high risk guys this year make it plausible that next year, with more picks who will need signing in the top rounds, they will be able to pony up the cash for said high-risk picks. Even the safe slot guys eat up money that cuts into the draft budget. So does having a higher first round pick who will require a higher bonus.

Say they do go safe with slot guys for the comp picks, how much money would slot players in those positions eat up? I would guess at least a million, with probably at least an extra milion going to the higher first round pick. That's already cutting away an extra two million into the draft budget before TALKING about going over slot for some high-risk guys with your normal draft picks. Given what has just transpired, do you find it likely the Jays will suddenly live up to their word next year and sign a few high risk over slot guys early on? Sure its possible, anything is. But you'd be one hell of a sucker to count on it. I mean the only thing they proved this year by going over slot to Marisnick, Hobson, Hutchison and Webb was that they are willing to draft themselves inferior backup options should the top-round guys they 'really wanted' not cave into their price range. That way they at least look like they're trying to spend their draft bugdet.

And I don't believe I said or implied in my post that any team in MLB goes over slot with every draft pick, so don't put words in my mouth. I was just saying that it now means the Jays will have to go with cheap college signs with these comp picks because otherwise it's too risky. Deferring picks year after year is a fools strategy. They take long enough to develope as is without waiting an extra season to get them signed.

 

ayjackson - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#205109) #
Does this state of the franchise bitchfest have to continue on two separate MLBU threads.  We need somewhere to discuss the efforts of the newly promoted Tim Collins and Tyler Pastornicky.
TamRa - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#205110) #
How does failing to sign their high risk guys this year make it plausible that next year, with more picks who will need signing in the top rounds, they will be able to pony up the cash for said high-risk picks. Even the safe slot guys eat up money that cuts into the draft budget. So does having a higher first round pick who will require a higher bonus.

No guarantees, of course, but also no guarantee that X and Y next year won't take what Barnett and Eliopolous refused this year. Everyone is different. also, there's no guarantee the budget will be the same every year. it stands to reason if you know you have six picks to sign instead of three, you budget more.

Waveburner - Tuesday, August 18 2009 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#205111) #
2007 tends to disagree with you. I just see no reason to buy into whatever new spin the Jays put on these things. If they end up increasing to $120 million next year and drafting AND SIGNING some early overslots next year I'll eat the crow I have coming. Right now though, everything the Jays say sounds like an outright lie. And I still say haggling over a few hundred grand with bonus demands for draft picks is a pretty poor way to take the Jays from being a 'good' team to a 'great' one that can compete with the Yankees/Red Sox. The Jays system is nowhere near strong off to be putting off these draft selections' developement clock a full year.
Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 12:14 AM EDT (#205112) #
Does this state of the franchise bitchfest have to continue on two separate MLBU threads. We need somewhere to discuss the efforts of the newly promoted Tim Collins and Tyler Pastornicky.

There will be a new MLU thread up later tonight or sometime tomorrow to discuss last night's games. It will presumably be a suitable venue to discuss the efforts of the players who were promoted earlier today.

Unfortunately, not all of us are able to write game recaps and post them immediately after the games end.

Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#205114) #
No guarantees, of course, but also no guarantee that X and Y next year won't take what Barnett and Eliopolous refused this year. Everyone is different. also, there's no guarantee the budget will be the same every year. it stands to reason if you know you have six picks to sign instead of three, you budget more.

It also stands to reason that an organization doesn't take three players in its top five who they are unable or unwilling to sign.

Thomas - Wednesday, August 19 2009 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#205115) #
No guarantees, of course, but also no guarantee that X and Y next year won't take what Barnett and Eliopolous refused this year. Everyone is different. also, there's no guarantee the budget will be the same every year. it stands to reason if you know you have six picks to sign instead of three, you budget more.

It also stands to reason that an organization doesn't take three players in its top five who they are unable or unwilling to sign.

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