Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

After waiving his no-trade clause, Scott Rolen was dealt to the Reds for Edwin Encarnacion and minor league pitchers Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

Roenicke, 26, is the son of Angels third-base coach and former big leaguer Gary Roenicke. He is pitching for Triple-A Louisville this season in relief and has a 2.57 ERA in 28 innings. He has 32 strikeouts against 6 walks, hasn't allowed a homer and has a 1.6:1 groundball to flyball ratio. Roenicke has a 2.70 ERA in 13.1 MLB innings this year. He was not on Baseball America's 2009 Top 10 Reds Prospects list, but was rated as having the best fastball in Cincinnati's system. John Sickels rated him as the sixth best prospect in the system. He turns 27 on Tuesday.

Stewart is 22 and, like Roenicke, didn't appear on Baseball America's 2009 Top 10 Reds Prospects list. Also like Roenicke, he was rated more highly by Sickels as he was listed as their 7th best prospect. Both were graded as B- prospects, which would have placed them around the same level as Brad Mills in Sickels mind. Stewart is now pitching for Louisville after starting the season in the Florida State League. After 7 starts and a 2.13 ERA (although he allowed 7 unearned runs) he earned a promotion to Double-A. He made 7 starts there and put up a 1.46 ERA alongside strong peripherals. He has been pitching in relief for Lousville and has a 0.73 ERA in 12.1 innings with 16 strikeouts and 8 walks. His groundball to flyball ratio was above or around 2 at both Single-A and Double-A.

Posted by Thomas on Friday, July 31 2009 @ 03:41 PM EDT.

Rolen to the Reds | 131 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Jays2010 - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#203736) #

In the other thread somebody mentiond Homer Bailey coming back - not sure if it was a guess or that is the rumoured name...but that would rule.

Then perhaps Andrus and Smoak for Doc and Scoot! The Rangers get to keep Holland then and it would be pretty amazing to get Doc for two POSITION players and nothing else.

And Downs for Wood, of course.

Thomas - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#203737) #

I will be disappointed if the return is Encarnacion. I'm not impressed by anything I've read about his defense.

92-93 - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#203738) #

If there's a baseball god it's Alonso coming back. If there isn't it's Encarnacion, which would be a massive mistake. I'd rather watch Bautista play 3B.

Forkball - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#203743) #

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9875596

Encarancion AND Alonso??? Wow!

If Rolen doesn't waive the no-trade clause I might start disliking him!

Anders - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#203745) #

According to Fox Sports the Jays are getting Alonso AND Encarnacion. The first reports I saw of this were from Jon Heyman, and that guy could not be more full of it, so I will wait until I see something in the Toronto papers/from another source before believing this one.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9875596

Nick Holmes - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#203747) #

Yonder Alonso & EE

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/prospects/y2009/profile.jsp?t=p_top&pid=475174

I'll miss Rolen, & I bet Scoots does too.

Yonder's a high price though, good for JP

Nick Holmes - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#203748) #

Yonder Alonso & EE

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/prospects/y2009/profile.jsp?t=p_top&pid=475174

I'll miss Rolen, & I bet Scoots does too.

Yonder's a high price though, good for JP

Thomas - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#203750) #

No Alonso as per Keith Law. I'm hearing Encarnacion + PTBNL.

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#203752) #

According to Bastian, KLaw has said Alonso is NOT in the Rolen deal.

On the other hand, Bastian also says that Alonso could be included in the deal as a PTBNL. Apparently because he signed late for the Reds after being drafted, he can't be named in a deal until after Aug 15th.

James W - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#203753) #

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ae7b795db-967a-451a-abd6-543fb2c73bf9&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zachary Stewart is the supposed return for Rolen.

ramone - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#203754) #

It's Rolen for EE and two minor league pitchers who are: zach stewart and josh roenicke

Thomas - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#203755) #

It's now being reported that it is Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart. Neither Roenicke nor Stewart were in BA's Top 10 Reds prospect, but they were ranked 6th and 7th by Sickels and both have had solid seasons in the minors this year. Both were pitching for Triple-A Louisville.

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#203756) #

Ouch. Two unproven minor leaguers- looks like Roenicke/Stewart both were used in closing/bullpen roles from their stats (although Stewart looks like he's started more than Roenicke). I don't know. I hope that JP's done his homework on those two guys, because they are essentially why this deal has been done. I'm not very convinced.

Magpie - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#203758) #

Anyone else having trouble accessing the site? Or was it just me?

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#203759) #

Not just you Magpie. Methinks the server is struggling to handle the amount of people on here right now. Granted I know nothing about tech stuff.

Jim - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#203760) #

Odd move. Moves them even further into a no man's land between competing and rebuilding.

Mike D - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#203761) #

Stewart looks like a very good arm; he's a starter whom they've had closing since his AAA callup to keep his inning count down.

But what is the plan at 3B?

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#203763) #

It seems that both Stewart and Roenicke have been closing at AAA. I suppose both these guys could provide the bullpen some help. I guess I'm just really deflated that we essentially bartered Rolen into bullpen help and a 3B that's batting just above the Mendoza line. Really?

My guess would be that you have Bautista/EE share 3B for the rest of the year and pray that Ahrens turns it around. Honestly, who else do we have down there? Campbell might be a cheaper replacement if we need one, but he hasn't hit a lick at AAA so far. I just wish that the front office at least gave off the vibe that it has a vision. When are we supposed to be contending now?

Jim - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#203764) #

Looks like a decent haul for Peavy. Poreda probably the best prospect, but based on the market seems like a good return for an expensive injured player.

vw_fan17 - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#203766) #

Dang. Rolen had become my favourite Jay, even moreso than Doc. Rock-steady defense, and re-tooling the swing.
I'm REALLY going to miss seeing him dive headlong and throw a bullet from his knees. Of course, he might fall apart again tomorrow, but..

Maybe I was somewhat prescient in canceling my MLB.tv subscription yesterday (didn't have enough time to watch much, the condensed games are free).

My interest in the team has easily dropped 20%. Was this basically a salary dump for 2010?

MatO - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#203767) #

Did some reading up on Stewart. Appears his calling card is a 93-94 sinker. He's similar to Cecil in that he was a college closer who the Reds were turning into a starter and were thus limiting his innings this year.

Ron - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#203768) #

This trade looks like a salary dump to me. Rolen is clearly better than EE while those 2 other pitchers are fringy prospects. EE is only going to make 4.75 million next season so the Jays will save money. If it's all about winning in 2010, I don't see how this trade improves the ballclub for next season.

Oh yeah Twitter should be abolished.

RhyZa - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#203769) #

I must be the only one who likes this trade. 2 B- prospects, and Encarnacion is a good haul to me.

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#203770) #

Bastian just tweeted that Rolen had asked for a trade for "personal reasons."

Magpie - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#203771) #

Bastian and Blair both quoting Ricciardi as saying that Rolen requested a trade "for personal reasons."

vw_fan17 - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#203772) #

Bastian just tweeted that Rolen had asked for a trade for "personal reasons."

AKA - he didn't want to go down with the ship? :-(

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#203773) #

It has to be about cash or else some bullpen guys are going to be on the move in the offseason. Maybe JP is banking on that position player free agents are going to be cheap again this offseason but not pitchers. Cleveland really depressed the trade market with Lee until the last minute deals. Every GM thought there would be another steal out there.

I would like to congratulate JP on his buy low sell high trade. We see far too few of them; it's just that it's too bad it was Rolen and not Rios or Wells (previous years) or Scutaro. The Jays cannot lose this trade in monetary terms with the cheaper player and minor leaguers coming back.

Thomas - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#203774) #

I'd rather just have received the two arms than Encarnacion, as well. Encarnacion is due $4.75 million next year and I don't think he's worth anything close to that. I'd rather the team have saved that money to prevent other cost-cutting measures or had it to spend on a different third basemen.

Maybe the Reds required us to take the contract back if they were going to take Rolen, but Rolen is worth his contract. Encarnacion is not.

Mike D - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#203775) #

AKA - he didn't want to go down with the ship? :-(

Nah. Very likely the turf. The SS Cincinnati is not exactly seaworthy itself.

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#203776) #

I guess that is just another reason to try and draft or sign Canadians- just to keep them from asking to be shipped out.

tstaddon - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#203777) #

Cincinnati's mlb.com beat writer Mark Sheldon writes: "Encarnacion was pretty upset when he was told." Great...

RhyZa - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#203778) #

Probably a requirement to take EE back. But he didn't always suck if I'm not mistaken, he had a good stretch of play but is a bit of an enigma and poor defensive player I believe. Then again Rolen is getting up there and is always an injury risk. It's no Alonso or Alderson but I don't think you can ask for more than 2 of the best pitching prospects in the system who appear to have good upside.

Dave Till - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#203782) #

So Rolen wanted out? Sadness. Players don't want to play here any more, and ownership wants to dump salary. This isn't looking good.

I'll feel more optimistic in the off-season if the Jays do something to improve the team - as opposed to merely upgrading their bottom line - but for now I'm in Glumland.

Moe - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#203784) #

So Rolen wanted out? Sadness. Players don't want to play here any more, and ownership wants to dump salary. This isn't looking good.

I don't know. As others said, it has to be the turf or something like that. The Reds are not much more competitive than the Jays and I doubt there was trouble with Cito.

Original Ryan - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#203785) #

So Rolen wanted out? Sadness. Players don't want to play here any more

I wouldn't read too much into this one. Rolen has wanted out of every city he's played in. He'll probably want out of Cincinnati before too long.

RhyZa - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#203786) #

Gauging Reds fans response it seems that most of them think they will regret trading Stewart who has big league starter potential and is close to ready. Roenike, they can live with, while pretty much major league ready he looks to be a live arm in the pen And they're split on EE, some hate giving up on his talent and hitting ability and can still see big things from him, while others are not too shaken up about it and feel he will always be a tease at best.

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#203787) #

I'm with you Till. This organization needs some positive news quick. Signing all those high round draft picks would give us something good to talk about.

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#203789) #

I am calling it now, the Jays have won the Glaus for Rolen trade.

Magpie - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#203790) #

Rolen, for once, was very happy with his manager. He does live near Indianapolis, and (someone check my US geography) this is probably about as close to home as he could go.

Ducey - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#203792) #

Looks like a good trade to me. Both pitchers look to eventually be able to add to the bullpen at least and maybe start. The have good numbers and apparently good stuff. Then again, they could be the next John Ford Griffens JP has brought in. EE is certainly a downgrade from the current version of Rolen, but really how long was that going to last? Rolen has not hit for this kind of average for years and he is barely keeping it together physically. EE has hit for power and hit for a good OBP, just not this year. His '06 and '07 seasons were pretty good and he hit 26 taters in '08. Could be a situation of getting a player at his low value (EE) for one who is at his highest (Rolen)?

Moe - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#203793) #

I read EE had a broken wrist? Hope this is not Overbay all over with a 1+ year recover period until he starts hitting. Although he has .900 OPS since coming back. As far as his defense, let's hope Butterfield can straighten him out.

TamRa - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#203794) #

I'm crushed. I love Rolen, I see nothing to like about EE, and I'm troubled at the trade request.

The only potential salvation here is IF Stewart turns out good...
(He's not yet 23 and reached AAA in under 120 professional innings - that shows promise. However, his innings are going to cap off soon (25 or so more at the outside) which means he'll be held to 150 or so next year so he has to be handled delicately. Still, His rations look damned good to me)

...and if somehow Butter can teach EE how to be a decent defender. and the Three headed monster can get him back to pushing 30 homers like he did in 2008 Though something tells me that's going to have a pretty sever home split)

On the whole, I find it pretty damned depressing.

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#203795) #

What makes people think that Rolen was going to breakdown physically? My impression is that with proper management he was very sustainable.

tstaddon - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#203796) #

I have to say, as much as I'd come to value Scott Rolen, I really like this deal. Encarnacion has plus power and has a good track record of hitting for average, getting on base and slugging. Yes, his reputation as a defender is very weak. But given the strides so many players in our organization have made with Butterfield as their infield coach, one suspects that Encarnacion could improve here. Few seem to question his arm strength or overall range, it appears that he has greater problems with consistency and often makes errors on routine plays. This problem is also alleviated somewhat by the presence of John MacDonald, who may now find his way into more games as a late defensive replacement.

The bottom line, for me, is that Encarnacion figures to be comparable to Rolen with the bat, still has upside, is controllable for at least two years to Rolen's one, and comes next year at a more than $6-million dollar discount. We also add two major-league ready arms that are controllable for a combined decade. Great move.

Griffin writes that Roenicke will join the Jays in Oakland tomorrow; perhaps that means Zep or Accardo is heading back to Las Vegas. Personally, I'd take Roenicke's addition as a sign that the Jays will try to move a piece like Frasor or Camp through waivers in August. And given Downs' inconsistency as closer, I'd like to see Cito audition League and Accardo for the role over the last two months. I believe Downs *can* close, but the Jays are better off with him facing tough lefties in the 7th and 8th. Losing BJ wasn't so bad because of *his* contribution to the team. It hurt because our other relievers were then forced out of roles they excelled in. Establishing League or Accardo in the 9th (a la 2007) could correct that problem.

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#203797) #

Bastian tweets that on his way to the stadium and he sees Accardo on his phone going the other way. Apparently Roenicke takes his spot.

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#203798) #

The Reds' website said he had a broken left wrist. He's been off the DL for about a month and has been hitting well. http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=429665&statType=1

Pistol - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#203799) #

Rolen forcing the Jays hand complicates things, but the Jays squeezed all they could out of him this year. He stayed healthy and played well.

Encarnacion I probably feel better about than most. He averaged an 105 OPS+ the 3 years prior to this year and will be 27 next year. He could end up being a solid player, although I won't admit to knowing what kind of impact having him at 3rd will have on the D.

The pitching prospects sound like they have some worth (and the Reds fans in the comments section of one of their papers seemed to not like giving them up). It sounds like they've improved from their status prior to the season.

Anders - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#203800) #

For what it's worth, Keith Law grades the trade out very favourably for the Jays, going as far as to use the word "tremendous," and he calls Roenicke and Stewart live arms. He is also high on Encarnacion's potential, and thinks the change of scenery will help.

The_Game - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#203801) #

It's a good trade in itself, but obviously I would have preferred it without Encarnacion. The pitching prospects are good, and Roenicke looks like a very good major league reliever right now.

It's a better deal if they don't play EE at 3B. The guy can hit (.800 career OPS), but he can't field his position at all. If they move him somewhere else or put him at DH, I think the Jays will win this deal easily.

It looks like the Jays' intention is to contend next year (they didn't sell at all really). But I'm just not sure how realistic that is without a good 3B. And you know they won't allocate the money they are saving on Rolen elsewhere.

Sano - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#203802) #

My initial reaction was coloured by the early reports indicating Alonso was part of the deal. EE's .901 OPS in July certainly looks nice and his power does seem to be an upgrade. As far as the other two pitchers, we'll see. Their stats are good and they both look ready for the majors.

I'll be very happy to eat my own words if this works out.

rpriske - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#203804) #

This is a good deal for Toronto.

Sure it would have been nice if it was Alonso...but if it WAS Alonso, Jocketty should be fired.

Encarnacion looks like a placeholder. If either pitcher hits his potential this will have been a lucrative deal.

christaylor - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#203805) #

Encarnacion plus/minus last year -21, this -10. Ick. Bautista's a +3. For comparison Rolen's +13 last and +18 this year.

Either way, I'm sad to see Rolen leave (he also became one of my favourite Jays) but we don't know the circumstances if has something to do with his family then it is hard to blame him for wanting to play closer to home.

If it was just EE, I'd be disappointed, but the arms are nice. However, sportsnet reports that the Jays are sending cash along with Rolen. So I doubt there's much savings from this year's salary on Rolen. One can only hope there are savings for 2010 that can be used to sign a SS/C.

Mark - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#203806) #

Stewart looks pretty legit. 1.67 ERA and 2:1 GB ratio over 3 levels this year.

Amongst their fans considered the best pitching prospect in their system. Projects as #2 or #3 starter

http://redsminorleagues.com/2009/07/23/midseason-top-10-reds-prospects/

Alex Obal - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#203808) #

Zach Stewart's delivery. My eyes see 25 but my brain says 28.

Good trade, if the Jays absolutely must cut salary and still want to contend next year. I'm not crazy about the strategy, but within the strategy, I like the trade.

Jays2010 - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#203809) #

Prediction: Stewart is the Jays' top prospect heading into 2010 (barring a major resurgence by BA). You can bet he will be a starter considering JP's record of converting college relievers into effective starters.

I like this trade and the $6 mill or so saved for 2010 can possibly be used to keep Scoot in the fold. Who knows, he could be in a similar situation to Cabrera with his Type A status and may be forced to accept a one year deal :)

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#203810) #

Hillenbrand for Accardo

Glaus for Rolen

Rolen for package

This looks like 3 wins for JP despite being "forced" to trade them. JP- Vernon Wells has asked to be traded for personal reasons. Make it happen ^_^

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#203811) #

Here's a different Reds' blog analysis of the pitchers:

http://redlegsbaseball.blogspot.com/2009/01/2009-top-prospect-list-15-zach-stewart.html

http://redlegsbaseball.blogspot.com/2009/01/2009-top-prospect-list-14-josh-roenicke.html

They probably know their players better than almost anyone. Stewart here is listed at #15 instead of the #2 prospect...

Jays2010 - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#203813) #

If Wells wants out, do it this way:

Carlos Lee for Vernon Wells, Scott Richmond and $30 million.

So instead of paying Carlos Lee $55 million for 3 years of horrible LF defence (since there is no NL DH) they can have Texas boy VW for 5 years at $77 million and Richmond for the back part of their rotation.

Just make sure not to mention that VW is a terrible CF, accentuate that Lee is a DH and that VW is having a comparable enough year to Lee outside of the Rogers Centre. Done and done.

Mike Green - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#203814) #

Hmm. I am going to miss Rolen. He's a Hall of Famer, in my books.

The club is demonstrably weaker for 2010, which means keeping Halladay isn't really fair to him. In the very long run, it might all work out. Sigh.

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#203815) #

Jays 2010, I was just joking about Wells because of how well JP has traded when players ask to leave. However, if Wells keeps getting booed mercilessly, he may want to leave too.

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#203816) #

Well, the bullpen should be stronger next year. The rotation should still be a strength. The key is to have Snider up here and a good one thru nine lineup. They need to make sure J-Mac isn't the starting SS next year. When Snider has been on this team, all they do is win, win, win.

zeppelinkm - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#203817) #

Am I naive? Did the Red Sox not just pull off an excellent trade for Victor Martinez?

What would a comparable Jays trade be? Romero + Frasor + Purcey?

Moe - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#203818) #

They probably know their players better than almost anyone. Stewart here is listed at #15 instead of the #2 prospect...

This is a pre-season ranking (Jan 18, 2009). At that time Stewart only had only spent 2-3 months in pro-ball.

ComebyDeanChance - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#203819) #

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#203820) #

It appears Cleveland was willing to take a smaller haul of prospects just so they could move contracts and value. They must have decided that it was better to just take the hit and get over it. Shapiro really dragged down the market for other players though with his firesale. The way the markets have been going, the Jays should just keep trading whoever their closer is at the deadline. Just imagine if the Jays had traded Frasor after he had that good season as closer. Imagine if they had traded Accardo after he was closer. Closer by committee I say.

brent - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#203821) #

These prospects have "live" arms and are in no way comparable to those players above.

MatO - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#203822) #

You mean the guy who picked Drew Stubbs? And isn't he the guy responsible for picking Roenicke and Stewart? Shouldn't we, with your logic, be dancing in the streets since Buckley's so great in judging talent?

Mark - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#203823) #

The redlegsbaseball rankings list is from January, the other one where Stewart is ranked 2nd is from one week ago.

Stewart was drafted last year in the 3rd round, is a converted closer and is excelling as a starter.

Reminds me of Marcum, Janssen, and Cecil.

Magpie - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#203824) #

Bastian's latest tweet: "Rolen asked out of Toronto for family reasons."

MatO - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#203825) #

Oh yeah, he picked Stubbs ahead of Lincecum and Snider.

metafour - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#203826) #

Chris Buckley's the Reds' SD. Buckley was SD in Toronto for the 2002 draft and according to my sources was high on Brian McCann way over Russ Adams. McCann of course, had no college stats to go on, unlike Russ Adams, and Chris was wizzed by JP soon after. If someone misjudged a prospect's value, I'm guessing it's not Buckley.

This looks like a bad salary dump. The prospects look Justin Miller/Brian Wofe/Ty Taubenheim-ish. On top of that, the Jays pick up a .209/.333/.374 tub of poo at third, who's 'only' owed $4.75 million next year.

And according to Cots, the kicker is that Toronto is actually paying part of Rolen's salary to the Reds. That'll help endear Rogers while they're paying off $15 million of BJ Ryan, after barely getting Frank Thomas off the books, after barely getting Corey...

I'm not sure how much more 'above-average' GM-ing this franchise can take.

LMFAO could you possibly talk out of your ass any more than this? There isn't a single writer that thinks we lost this trade...in fact, pretty much everyone has us as the clear winner and Reds fans are pretty much livid. Some have said that losing Stewart+Roenicke is almost as bad as losing Alonso, Stewart is a kid who many of them thought was going to be their future closer or possibly even a solid starter. We fleeced them in this trade.

greenfrog - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#203828) #

I like the trade. Realistically, the Jays aren't going to contend next year, so getting younger, shedding payroll, and acquiring a good young pitching prospect makes eminent sense. No doubt JP will make another run at trading Doc (a healthy 20+ win Doc, hopefully) in the off-season.

I'll miss Rolen's brilliant glove and leadership by example, though. It was a real joy watching him play third.

Moe - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#203829) #

I don't think this trade has much impact on the odds of the Jays contending next year. Yes, 3rd base got a bit weaker, but if EE's performance goes back up (reasonable) and Rolen regresses a bit (also reasonable) their 2010 performances could be close to being a wash. And I would think the injury risk is also lower. On top of that the trade brings back 2 arms that look quite serviceable and the trade saves quite a few $$$s next year.

If the Jays decide they will go for it - and they might if Rogers feel that it could help the value of the franchise - they can still use some of the young pitching and some of the saved money to bring in an a C and SS.

lexomatic - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#203831) #

this game is ugh
johnny mac at 3b? millar at 1b and batting cleanup?
DOUBLE UGH. i hope that EE can play tomorrow (or next game). that was a horrible lineup tonight.

as far as my previous posts and the disappointment in it... that was related to what i considered a necessary blowup that needed to happen not happening.
i'm not confident in there being budget room to get pieces to actually make an attempt to contend. i don't particularly hate the trade for what it is.. but what it isn't (part of a series of trades.)
i fully expect some relievers to go on waivers.

TamRa - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#203832) #

I think the 2010 contention, as far as this deal goes, hinges on two things:

1. Can Butter make EE at least a competent 3B who doesn't give back some of the contributions he makes with the bat?

2. Will Roenicke be a guy who makes other relievers available (Frasor, League, even Downs if they think he can close) and thus the return on any such deal contribute to 2010 success?

Long range, if everyone plays up to their potential, I could see it as a win.

But damn, going from watching Rolen play to watching EE play is gonna be tough.

TamRa - Friday, July 31 2009 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#203833) #

Would one of you people PLEASE go and pry Cito's cold dead hands off of Kevin Millar before I see him bat cleanup ever again

I mean seriously, that's just stunningly embarrassing.
Especially the fact that it KEEPS HAPPENING!

Thomas - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 12:16 AM EDT (#203834) #

I don't hate the EE part of this deal as much as I did a few hours ago, when I had visions of Encarnacion's butchering 50% of the balls Rolen would get to. Butters could potentially improve EE's defence, but it's a road back to even average with him.

I was a fan of Encarnacion's bat a few years ago when he was a hot Reds prospect, but he just hasn't seemed to develop like many thought he would. He is one of these players that could benefit from a change of scenery, but one has to be aware that improvement has to be offset by the fact that Encarnacion is moving from a hitter's park to a more neutral environment. However, getting out from under Baker could help him.

I don't think EE will ever hit enough to really carry 1B or a corner outfield position, so he's going to have make some strides at 3B. I'm not sure he'll completely resurrect his career in Toronto, but it's a reasonable gamble for JP to spend two months gauging what they have.

Mick Doherty - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 01:27 AM EDT (#203836) #

Hmm. I am going to miss Rolen. He's a Hall of Famer, in my books.

A reasonable argument to make. He's not quite Ron Santo, but he's right there with Ken Boyer and Darrell Evans. Er ... what? NONE of those guys are in the Hall?

What is it with the Cooperstown anti-3B bias, anyway?

timpinder - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 02:08 AM EDT (#203837) #

It wasn't a secret, but Ricciardi has said that he'll listen to trade offers for Halladay again in the off-season. I think with Rolen gone this team's new direction is towards a rebuild. Wells and Overbay will both clear waivers, Rios should clear waivers, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Overbay and/or Rios were traded this season with the Jays eating some salary or taking a lesser salary back, like with the Rolen/Encarnacion trade.

Regarding EE, he's probably a below average 3B but at least it gives the Jays relatively cheap filler at the position until 2012 and it will allow time for some prospects to develop (though neither Ahrens nor Fuenmayer, probably the Jays' highest ranked 3B prospects prior to this year, are showing much of anything to this point).

Jays2010 - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 02:17 AM EDT (#203839) #

On a wholly positive note, Snider hit 4 (FOUR!) doubles in last night's game. I can't see the Kevin Millar experience lasting too much longer. I say by the middle of August (I think that is long enough where he won't be a super two after 2011) he is with the Jays for good. Hopefully he starts at least 75% of the games and doesn't sit for every lefty.

TamRa - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 04:24 AM EDT (#203840) #

A couple of random thoughts....

Encarnacion may well join the group of Jays run through waivers and made available for a deal (Along with Rios, Overbay, Scutaro, Wells, Barajas, and the entire bullpen)
If the Jays could turn up a 3B who can field well anywhere in that set of potential trade fodder, Encarnacion might be flipped himself, or, he might be your 2010 1B or DH...

What kind of fielder is Josh Fields? He's wanting out and you might get him for a small price. Frankly, there's not a lot of attractive options out there though, which leads me to this thought -

as much as I find the O-Dog lust among Jays fans overplayed...what are the odds that the Jays move Hill to 3B (since he has the cliched "power for the corner" now) and try to sign a 2B (like Hudson) this off-season?

Assuming of course they are serious about not tearing it down (which I'm not sure about)

As I look around the league, I'm not sure I see a 3B out there I like better than I like the idea of moving Hill over there.

Even if they are rebuilding, Hill to 3B and a wild card guy at 2B is probably better than Hill at second and some Bautista type at 3B

(n a perfect world, Josh Barfield blossoming for the Jays would be a feel-good story...but someone like that. One could probably make a pretty good little list of such guys, between potential free agents and guys who might be available for a small price....

Felipe Lopez
Martin Prado
Macir Izturus
Richie Weeks - are the Brewers tired of him yet? Doubtful

I dunno, I'm sure there are options I'm not noticing this time of night.

Okay, I'm rambling now...

To sum up:

EE might not be here long
EE might not stay at 3B

and am I the only one that thinks the best long term move might be to move Hill to 3B?

The_Game - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 04:40 AM EDT (#203841) #

Snider's OPS is now up to .930. When can we bring him up?

Magpie - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 05:34 AM EDT (#203842) #

am I the only one that thinks the best long term move might be to move Hill to 3B?

I hope so.

Olerud363 - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 05:50 AM EDT (#203844) #

and am I the only one that thinks the best long term move might be to move Hill to 3B?

If they could find a defensive wiz at short and second... and build a 700-600 (runs scored/against) type team they could consider it.

Keeping him at second is probably his most valuable position. But given their resources Jays need to consider everything.

Also should consider moving him back to short. Sign Hudson, move Lind to first, get a big DH, Encanarcian at 3rd, Snider in left. A 900-775 team.

And before I get 100 snappy replies not arguing strongly in favor of those moves. All I'm saying is that to compete with the Yanks and Sox Jays need to be flexible. Consider multiple ways of building a team that scores more than the other guys.

92-93 - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#203845) #

"Snider's OPS is now up to .930. When can we bring him up?"

Around August 22 is the equivalent to a top prospect being called up for the first time on June 1st to avoid Super 2 arbitration. Usually you don't need 2 full months of no service time (Snider would need 3 because of last September), but they might not want to play it too close.

Greg - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#203846) #

After reading thinkfactory all day the contrast here is...well not surprising, but certainly interesting.
Roenicke may just be a bullpen arm, but Stewart has potential to be a good starter

And Encarnacion...I hadn't thought about the Butterfield possibility, maybe he can improve his defence? Though I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
More importantly I think is the fact that his 209/333/374 line is a bit misleading

He hit 127/286/190 while battling injury in April
missed two months
And is hitting 276/375/526 in 24 games in July. Small samples sizes I know, but how many Jays have OPSed .900 over a full month this year? Lind and Hill?

Frank Markotich - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#203847) #

Wells and Rios have OPSed over .900 every month. That's if you add them together.

Greg - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#203848) #

True
Vernex Riolls might actually be a solid player

Where's Citadel-shunned Maester Qyburn when you need him!

Ducey - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#203849) #

What makes people think that Rolen was going to breakdown physically? My impression is that with proper management he was very sustainable.

2005 - 56 Games Played
2006 - 142
2007- 112
2008 - 115
2009 - 88 (Hill leads the team with 100)

He is 34 and playing a position where guys in their mid 30's tend to regress. He has stayed healthy this year, but given his age, history, position, and that he has to be "managed", it is not likely to continue.

Matthew E - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#203851) #

Where's Citadel-shunned Maester Qyburn when you need him!

Nice!

TimberLee - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#203852) #

The Reds deal looks fine to me, remembering that we have to accept Blue Jays' ownership's apparent decision to lower the payroll. Encarnacion has been a Major League 3B for years and is still just 26, he is recovering from a significant wrist injury, and nearly everyone thinks he'll be a decent hitter for years to come. He's not as good defensively as Rolen, but who is? Besides, Toronto will probably have needs at 1B and DH over the next season or two.

And then there are the kid pitchers who both seem to have at least a chance.

I fully expect some other Jays to go before next April in similar types of trades.

greenfrog - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#203853) #

It's too bad that the Jays couldn't agree on a deal for Scutaro, who is having a brilliant season and could really help a contender. But it probably would have been hard for JP to get a better return than the two first-round draft picks Toronto will receive if he signs elsewhere. And who knows? Maybe the Jays will end up keeping him for a couple of more seasons.

Chuck - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#203857) #

I'm very surprised that the Red Sox didn't get Scutaro. He seems like a perfect fit.

TamRa - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#203860) #

am I the only one that thinks the best long term move might be to move Hill to 3B?

I hope so.

Elaborate.

If Hill can be better than average at 3B (and if he has the arm for it he surely can) AND we can add a player who is or who can be taught to be an above average 2B...doesn't that total up better than a top shelf 2B (Hill) and a really sub-par 3b?

Spifficus - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#203865) #

My thought is because you're putting 2 positions into flux at that point, instead of just one. I mean, if you were acquiring Pedroia, or some other star-caliber 2B who is already good defensively there, sure, you can ask the one with more 3B skills to try their luck there.

Then there's the player-ego side (not something I normally give a lot of thought to, but this could be an exception). I don't know how you say to Hill, "Yeah, you know that position you've busted your hump off for the past 5 years to master? We're going to move you off of it so we can put a complete unknown there. we're pretty sure he'll never hit like you, or field like you, but we think it's for the best of the team." Sounds like it could be a tough sell.

Add in the bonus of learning new position could mean an increased injury risk, and I don't see it as something I'd want to try. I'd rather ask the new guy to be a 3B, or just get a project-level 3b (Andy Marte?)... Or spend a buck or two and get a good one.

Magpie - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#203866) #

Elaborate.

Second base is a tougher position to play, and Hill plays it very well. The hills are not alive with second basemen who hit as well as he does. Or field as well as he does. So who is out there - in the entire major leagues - who would inspire you to move Hill to a new position?

Chase Utley, I guess. Okay - if the Jays get Utley, maybe Hill should move to third.

Magpie - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#203867) #

But if it's not Chase Utley - or Pedroia, I suppose - whoever it is, they can move to third.

Mylegacy - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#203868) #

Found this about the Rolen trade - these people are very high on Zach Stewart. They say they wouldn't trade Stewart for Rolen "straight up."

http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=2619

Mike Green - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#203870) #

There is a common thread to the "Hill to 3B" and "Rolen's a HoFer" ideas. The defensive component of third base seems to me to still be underappreciated. It's a tough position with refined skill requirements. If you get a player who plays well defensively at the position and makes an offensive contribution be it with power (the Schmidt/Mathews/young Rolen model) or without power (the Boggs/middle aged Rolen model), you have one valuable player.

Second base is much the same in terms of overall defensive requirements, although the balance is obviously different (more arm/reaction speed for third base, more agility at second), and needed offensive abilities. Still, many of us think of good second basemen as little guys who maybe have some pop but run well and get on base, whereas good third basemen have pop. Hence, Cito batted Hill second and Rolen fourth although by rights Rolen would have made a fine 2 hitter and Hill better as a cleanup hitter. And some Bauxites want to move Hill to third.

Shortstop is a different story. I still believe that Hill would have made a great shortstop had the club left him there, and he would have had more value. Not that there is anything wrong with a fine defensive second baseman who hits 30 homers...

timpinder - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#203871) #

Is it too late to shift Hill over to SS? The Jays have Inglett and some 2B prospects (Emaus, Campbell and further down Tolisano) who look like they could handle the position, but no real SS prospects above A+. If Overbay is traded the Jays' would only have two left-handers in the their lineup (assuming Snider is up). Why not make Inglett your 2B and move Hill to SS? This is assuming that Scutaro leaves and the Jays don't replace him with a free agent. And by the way, I hope the Jays do let Scutaro walk and take the picks, because he's having a career year that I don't see him repeating. Ricciardi has made some dishing out contracts to guys after big years, like Overbay, Wells and Rios.

christaylor - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#203872) #

If memory serves it was two off-seasons ago when Hill said he wasn't comfortable moving back to SS. I know there are some who would not care about the players wishes and would have mandated that he play SS irrespective of his wishes. However, players are people and probably an unhappy Hill doesn't sign a club-friendly extension.

I wished Hill had moved to SS too, but I don't think the Jays are wrong for not moving him back there.

Also, I think Hill would make a fine 3B. When he came up in 2005 he was more than fine filling in for Koskie. I'd wager that his arm strength is better than most 3B and he'd probably make an above average 3B. If the EE experiment doesn't work out, a 2B is probably easier to acquire. Perhaps Hill would agree to shift across the diamond. Hopefully that's not the case and EE's defense improves with Butterfield. If that happens and EE can slug again, he probably is more along the lines of what the Jays line up needs as it is SLG and not OBP which has been lacking in recent years.

christaylor - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#203873) #

Isn't Scutaro only a type B and only 1 draft pick worth? Perhaps Boston was higher on internal options or JP is already trying to work out an extension w/Scutaro (who may be giving the Jays a break as they're the only org that has seen him as a SS).

Who knows, but I concur. Scutaro seemed a much more likely move than Rolen (although nobody knew about the personal reasons).

Lastly, I really hope Overbay picks it up from now until the end of the season to up his value. He really needs to be traded going into 2010. Lind ought to be a 1B and Snider at RF. Perhaps EE at DH and Bautista at 3B.

Hodgie - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#203874) #

Hmmmm, for what it is worth it seems the trade is not going over well with the Reds fandom. The quote of the day....

"Somebody needs to get Walt a rape whistle!"

Moe - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#203876) #

Isn't Scutaro only a type B and only 1 draft pick worth?

He projects to be a type A: http://www.scribd.com/doc/17870577/Rankings-073009. Both Scutaro and Barajas (type B) sit very much in the middle of their groups and with only 2 months left they should stay there.

What is scary is looking at the 1B/OF/DH ranking: (not surprisingly) not a single Jay is type A, but there are plenty of Yankees and Red Sox. I scrolled down to see whether EE is ranked (he is not, Rolen is type A) and noticed that Bengie Molina is the 2nd highest ranked catcher in the NL! Oh, and both Hudson and Glaus are also type A, but I guess we knew that.

uglyone - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#203877) #

3-year Splits (07-09):

S.Rolen (34, $11.8 '10): 1138ab, 27hr, 151rbi, 14/19sb, .280avg, .351obp, .433slg, .784ops
E.Encarnacion (26, $4.75 '10): 1144ab, 47hr, 160rbi, 10/12sb, .262avg, .348obp, .443slg, .791ops

Buy Low, Sell High.

and then add one very good and one good prospect on top.

nice.

TamRa - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#203880) #

Second base is a tougher position to play, and Hill plays it very well. The hills are not alive with second basemen who hit as well as he does. Or field as well as he does. So who is out there - in the entire major leagues - who would inspire you to move Hill to a new position?

Ah, but that is not the question.

the question is, would the total net runs produced by Hill at 3B + Mr. X at 2B (offensively and defensively) be more than the total net runs produced by Hill at 2B and Mr. Y at 3B

Of course, the answer to that depends on who X and Y are - BUT X doesn't have to be a more productive 2B than Hill, he simply has to be better in the overall equation than what Y could contribute in the other scenario.

it is perfectly possible that X would be an inferior 2B on both sides of the ball than Hill and still be a part of the superior combo.

The potential solutions are highly dependent on what the Jays are willing to spend (in cost and prospects) to fill the open position, whichever it is.
for instance, let's say the Jays are actually willing to spend a reasonable amount of money on one player to fill one of those positions next year.

So looking at the potential FA 2b and 3B next year (and ruling out Glaus for obvious reasons) they could reasonably consider either:

Hudson
Polonco
Lopez
DeRosa
Iwamura

or

Beltre
Blalock

Now, if Belte came at an Abreu-discount, that might be your best buy, but he might not a Blalock is a walking M*A*S*H unit maybe more so than Rolen. But anyway...

So, the equation becomes, for instance:

is Hill/3B + Hudson/2B > Hill/2B + Beltre/3B ....or not?

Whether or not Hudson is a better 2B than Hill, defensively or offensively, isn't at all relevant to the answer to that question.

Alex Obal - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#203882) #

Still, you should try to play Iwamura or ODog or Inglett(!!) or whoever at third, if they can hack it there and you think Hill fields second better.

Moe - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#203885) #

I don't even think we need to talk about the O'Dog. He is having a great season and will be able to demand a significant contract. If I had to guess, I'd say the Dodgers will sign him to a 3-4 year deal. So given the dollars and the fact that as a type A FA he will cost the Jays a pick, it's pretty safe to assume he won't come back.

I'm sure the official line will be that the team will try to contend in 2010 (unless they end up trading Roy after all), but they won't shell out any long term deals. I could imagine an Abreau signing, something to get the buzz up and to sell the idea of contending (and hence tickets).

Btw, is EE under club control for 2011? From Cot's I would say yes, but Blair wrote today that he is in a contract year next year. I suppose that is technically true, but with one more year of arbitration, it is a more of "contract year light".

TamRa - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#203886) #

Only if the net result is higher. that is, do you save more runs defensively with Hill at 2B and X at third, or vice versa?

Making up numbers here...

If Hil is a +18 at 2B and X is a +2 at third....bot Hill is a +13 at 3B and X is a +12 at 2B...then the latter combination is to be prefered even though Hill would be "less effective" at 3B than at 2B.

92-93 - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#203887) #

Actually Will, the best 3B on the FA market is Chone Figgins, and he'd be a perfect fit for Toronto at the top of the lineup. As Mike was saying, he'd fit the role of offensive producer without the power, with his career .360 OBP. He also brings a fantastic glove to the table. If the Jays were serious about contending next year he'd be an obvious place to start.

Alex Obal - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#203889) #

Bingo, Will.

Joe Inglett is a pretty similar hitter to Figgins. He's more aggressive, and less of a basestealing threat, but he'd probably (justifiably) cost less. Of course I could definitely tolerate watching both of them play for my team..

TamRa - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#203890) #

Figgins
Scutaro
Lind
Hill
Overbay
Wells
Rios
Snider
catcher

That's not bad, especially if Snider breaks out and plays his way up to fifth because Overbay only fits there (or sixth) as a "break up the RH" action.
I hadn't realized Figgins was rated that good defensively but if he is, that sounds like a pretty good plan.

Moe - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#203891) #

Do you really think Figgins would lease the Angels to come to the Jays unless we blow him away with our offer? He has a good season, is 31 years old and I'm sure the Angels would like to keep him.

Would it be nice to have him? Sure, Would I want to give him the contract necessary to get him? Probably not. He heavily relies on speed and would be 35 by the end of a 4 year deal. And playing on the artificial turf won't help.

I don't think the Jays plan on flipping EE unless they get a 3B back somehow. The market looks pretty weak this year and EE is even under control for one more season (I believe), so why flip him? If he rebounds, he is very affordable next year and if not, it's only a one year deal.

TamRa - Saturday, August 01 2009 @ 11:57 PM EDT (#203892) #

Do you really think Figgins would lease the Angels to come to the Jays unless we blow him away with our offer? He has a good season, is 31 years old and I'm sure the Angels would like to keep him.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Even they have to save a little money and they have to deal with lackey. Brandon Wood is useless to them unless Figgins leaves. MAYBE they are passing a chance to move him as a hedge against Figgins walking but much more likely, the intend to let him go. I've also heard Ayber is being looked at as the replacement leadoff man.

Would it be nice to have him? Sure, Would I want to give him the contract necessary to get him? Probably not. He heavily relies on speed and would be 35 by the end of a 4 year deal. And playing on the artificial turf won't help.

I certainly don't think he's going to get a 4 year deal from ANY team. This is a new market (until events prove otherwise)

Also, playing on turf probably HELPS his OBP at home, since turf is said, so the cliche goes, to help a fast player who can get the ball on the ground.

I don't think the Jays plan on flipping EE unless they get a 3B back somehow. The market looks pretty weak this year and EE is even under control for one more season (I believe), so why flip him?

It would obviously be contingent on haveing another option in house, unless it's a strictly money driven choice.

brent - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#203894) #

Perhaps what is being lost in the Vernon Wells season is his lack of hitting left handed pitching. The huge difference between home and away is mostly a bunch of singles. Vernon shouldn't be hitting so poorly against the lefties. Any possible explanations for this?

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?c_id=tor&playerID=150484&statType=1

BTW, how does Vernon hit 3 homers in July and end up with only 3 RBI on the month? Perplexing.

TamRa - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 01:55 AM EDT (#203896) #

is there any way to combine splits?

i.e. can one see how he hits lefties on the road vs how he hits lefties at home?

I have wondered if it might be a vision thing but surely the Jays would have had such an eventuality checked out...

brent - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 06:30 AM EDT (#203898) #

I couldn't find anywhere that had those splits, Will.

I think it is very telling by the comments the Reds' fans are making:

1. They gave up on E5 and hated him like everyone does Wells (only he's making 4+ million)

2. They think they overpaid with the young arms

3. They think Rolen will fill a leadership void on their team

4. They still think it is a bad trade going forward but still glad E5 is gone

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:e57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost:ddbb706d-60b2-477f-b0d3-3493548c0889&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

BP has also ranked this (for the Reds) as the worst deadline deal this season.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1357

All hail JP!

brent - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 06:46 AM EDT (#203900) #

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/8/1/972204/trade-deadline-reactions

You can read expert John Sickels' take on the trade too. BTW, he ranks Stewart a B/B+ prospect (which is Cecil territory, FYI as Sickels is notoriously tough).

The thought of our 3 hitting instructors getting their hands on EE and getting him to hit 25+ homeruns next year makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

92-93 - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#203902) #

"The thought of our 3 hitting instructors getting their hands on EE and getting him to hit 25+ homeruns next year makes me feel warm and fuzzy."

I'd rather these "geniuses" coax 25 HRs out of our 2 highest paid position players.

TamRa - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#203913) #

I don't think EE needs to be made into a "25+ home run hitter" - he already is.

If Tenece et al did him any good it would push him into the 30's

I'm much more interested in whether Butter can fix his defense.

Unless of course we are resigned to getting Figgins or someone and moving EE to another position or another team.

Spifficus - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#203915) #

Unless of course we are resigned to getting Figgins or someone and moving EE to another position or another team.

I'd say that's what the next two months are going to tell the team.

Moe - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#203917) #

Brandon Wood is useless to them unless Figgins leaves.

The beauty of Figgins is that he can play multiple positions. As recently as 2006 he played mostly CF. I'm sure the Angels can find a spot for him, even if Wood plays 3B most days.

I certainly don't think he's going to get a 4 year deal from ANY team. This is a new market (until events prove otherwise)

Maybe not 4, but I can easily see 3. Yes, this is a new market, but that's going to have a bigger impact on the $s than on the years. He is an All-Star his year, has a solid glove, can play almost any position and is 32 at the beginning of next season. If I had to guess, I'd say a rich 2 year deal or a moderate 3 year deal, both with an option.

So even if the Angels don't want him/ can't afford him, he will have multiple teams lined up. He has always played for a contender in sunny CA, so why would he want to came here on an equal deal? (I don't see the Jays overbidding this off-season). Also, if he is so cheap as you think he will be, the Angels could afford him!

Also, playing on turf probably HELPS his OBP at home, since turf is said, so the cliche goes, to help a fast player who can get the ball on the ground.

So it helps him once or twice in a game and hurts him 9 innings every game. I haven't seen a study (or I can't remember) but my guess is that the turf makes faster players break down more easily. There is a reason the turf is faster -- it is harder and you can only take so much pounding before you slow down.

I think the Jays best hope is for Beltre to fall through the cracks or to take a flyer on a Hudson situation. However, as I said above, I expect EE to be with the team next year. I don't think the Jays will find someone much cheaper on the market and no one is going to give them much, They bought low and can no wait whether his stock improves next year.

brent - Sunday, August 02 2009 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#203922) #

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/08/02/at_end_of_day_no_halladay/?page=1

Nice article here. Halladay didn't nix a trade to Texas. No one was close to offering what JP actually wanted.

TamRa - Monday, August 03 2009 @ 12:09 AM EDT (#203936) #

So even if the Angels don't want him/ can't afford him, he will have multiple teams lined up. He has always played for a contender in sunny CA, so why would he want to came here on an equal deal? (I don't see the Jays overbidding this off-season). Also, if he is so cheap as you think he will be, the Angels could afford him!

Don't we (not you and I in particular, Jays fans in general) have a similar doom and gloom discussion EVERY off-season about how hard it will be for the Jays to land any free agent?

Yet those conclusions almost never turn out to be true. Except for last year, when they made virtually no effort (beyond Furcal) there's little to suggest the Jays can't compete for free agents except abject speculation.

By the way, I'm not really saying he'll be "cheap" - I'm saying that the Angels have every position on the diamond filled if Wood is their SS - depending of course on whether they want to bring back Vlad or add a similar player as a DH.

I don't think Figgins will want to play as the first guy off the bench nor will they want to pay him starter money to do so.

christaylor - Monday, August 03 2009 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#203944) #

Sorry if anyone's mentioned this but I'm not sure why there's even talk about Figgins coming here... he's not a SS and would be a butcher at the position. I'd rather have Scutaro on a two year deal.

The Jays need a legit SS. Already with EE (or Bautista) the Jays have taken a hit on left-side defense. The defense has been key in what success the Jays have had. Overbay needs to be traded in the off-season and the Jays need to take a flyer on an out of favour slugger to fill DH. Although I don't trust JP on finding such a player his track record with Millar, Wilkerson and Mench has been pretty spotty.

timpinder - Monday, August 03 2009 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#203946) #

I don't think that the Jays are going to be going after any free agents. It looks like they're cutting costs and before they go out and sign a DH they'll probably try to trade Overbay and give Dopirak a shot. Also, I do NOT want to see Scutaro signed. He's going to be coming off a career year and won't come cheap and we've seen how the Rios, Wells and Overbay contracts have worked out so far. Take the two draft picks!

My guess is that the Jays trade Overbay but eat some of his salary and also trade Halladay with a SS coming back (Lowrie would be fantastic because he's a switch hitter with a history of OBP skills, but I know Ricciardi doesn't want trade with Boston if he doesn't have to).

This lineup could be very good though:

Rios
Wells
Lind
Hill
Snider
Dopirak
Encarnacion
SS
C

It leans a bit right though, and obviously if a trade is made for someone like Lowrie who can lead off, Rios and/or Wells would move to the middle of the order.

Am I expecting too much from Dopirak? His numbers the last two years between A+ and AAA have been very good, he's not old, and I saw him in Spring Training and I was impressed.

TamRa - Monday, August 03 2009 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#203970) #

Sorry if anyone's mentioned this but I'm not sure why there's even talk about Figgins coming here... he's not a SS and would be a butcher at the position.

Perhaps you are misreading (or I am) but no one here has suggested Figins play SS

We're talking about signing him to play 3B

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