That being said, all Riccardi has done today is reverse his supremely stupid policy of sending every trade offer he gets for Halladay directly to the trash.

I have to disagree with this statement, seeyou.  When I heard JP's most recent position on Halladay today, I didn't interpret it as a change in philosophy whatsoever.  I'm pretty confident that JP has mentioned a few times over the last year or so that no player on the team was untouchable, and that it was his job to consider if any incoming offer could improve the team.  That being said, I seem to remember him also saying at the time that he would have to be blown away by any offer for Roy to seriously consider it, basically implying that he was untouchable, and rightfully so.  Fans would be screaming bloody murder if JP was openly shopping Roy before the Jays were out of contention.

I think there is a big difference between a) stating that a player is not on the block and you would have to get an incredible offer to consider moving him and b) stating you will not consider any offers whatsoever.

To this point, I certainly would not label JP's policy towards Halladay as "supremely stupid".

a. Angels, built around Wood And Conger

I was thinking about Wood, too. Conger's catcherness is up in the air, so I wouldn't want him as part of the centerpiece. Walden and his mid-90s sinker sounds like a good number 2 man in a trade. The Angels also have enough interesting minor leaguers to round out the deal (Smith, Bourjos, Chatwood, and my personal fave of sinkerballer Chaffee).

b. Rangers, built around Andrus and Saltyo r Teagarden

I'd be more inclined to go for Smoak, a pitcher and a catcher. I don't really see them as a good target, though... I'd want a moderately advanced potential frontline starting prospect - I don't see them dealing Feliz, though, and Perez isn't advanced enough.

Colorado would be interesting if they'd begin an offer with Chacin and Tulo (not holding my breath). Beckham and Poreda might be a good start for Chicago. Brewers have the pieces if they want to use them (Gamel or Escobar would need to be in, as well as Lowrie). The Dodgers need all the pieces I'd want. The Red Sox have the toys, the Yankees don't, but I don't see either of those being real destinations. Philly could centre a deal around Drabek and Taylor.

Giants want to acquire a hitter and... I suggest they open up the wallet and take Vernon Wells

Zito for Wells would save the Jays $24M as long as Barry's option for 2014 doesn't vests, or $11M if it does... Just Say'n... Yeah, nevermind.

Alternately, Carlos Lee would look great in the middle of the Jays' lineup. Flip those two, cover about half of the extra two years of Wells' contract, and hope that Ed Wade is, well, still Ed Wade? It could happen, right?

I'd rather the Jays get back one cheap close-to-being a number 1 or 2 starter and a couple of other pieces than 6 "good" prospects. So if the Dodgers are willing to centre a trade around Kershaw or Billingsley (I highly doubt this) then pull the trigger. I highly doubt the Jays are going to get a ridiculous assembly of talent; right now I say if we could even straight-up get Billingsley or Kershaw it might be better than what we actually end up with if we do, in fact, move Halladay. Kershaw and Kemp? No way would the Dodgers do that, though I'd add Tallet to make that happen :)

I hate the idea of trading Halladay because I still think the Jays have a legit shot at 90 wins and possible contention in 2010. I'd much rather trade Rios for a decent prospect, eat half of VW's contract and move him for a bag of balls and keep Halladay. And if we are trading Halladay, then I want to see a full blow up of this team and most of our veteran hitters replaced with stud prospects. Rolen, Overbay, bullpen arms and maybe Rios should all be moved if this is the path the Jays choose (I'd love to move Vernon but, quite frankly, it doesn't make sense to trade him when he is performing this poorly). Examples...

1. Scott Rolen for Alicides Escobar

2. Scott Rolen for Brandon Wood

3. Scott Downs and/or Jason Frasor for Brandon Wood

4. Alex Rios & Marco Scutaro for Yunel Escobar & (I guess) Jeff Franceour

Between Lind/Snider/Cooper/Sierra et al (and the fact that corner OF/1B/DH is easy enough to fill), Hill and, hopefully, JPA we have reasonable coverage with cheap players at all positions other than 3B, SS and CF which will be filled with one of Wells/Rios. If the Jays were to move Halladay and some other vets but fielded this type of $50 mill team in 2011 it could lessen some of the blow...

LF: Snider; CF Rios; RF: Sierra; 3B: Wood; SS: A Escobar; 2B: Hill, 1B: Lind; DH: Dopirak/Cooper etc

SP: Kershaw/Romero/Rzcepcsynski/Cecil/Marcum etc (4 LH, JP's dream) and JP's standard collection of cheap, effective relievers.

A lot of projection, but I think it could be a very solid team...and perhaps in the winter of 2010 we make a run at bringing Halladay back!

Halladay is my favourite player ever.  I'm going to HATE seeing him leave.  It's probably for the best, though. 

I agree with the above poster that said if Halladay goes there should be a fire-sale.  The Jays should trade Overbay, Rolen and one of Frasor or Downs.  I wish they could get rid of Wells and move Rios to CF, but I think they're stuck with Wells for another 5 years (yikes - that contract is looking like the worst in all of baseball now).  Wells will hurt them for years, but Ryan will be gone after next year and the Jays could focus on 2011 and beyond.  Rios' contract might be moveable, which would open up a spot for Snider in RF with Lind moving to LF and Dopirak getting a shot at 1B, assuming Overbay is dealt.

Pop quiz, give me the first and last name of the Jays owners. Don’t feel bad, I couldn’t name one either.

When approached about payroll, Beeston had no comment. It’s obvious Halladay’s current contract is an issue with the club going forward. There’s no reason to believe ownership is ready to boost payroll by 20+ million next season. If the Jays are going to hover around 75-80 million, it’s going to be tough to keep Halladay while acquiring other players to improve the club.

I’m going to sound like a broken record, but the Jays need to replace the current GM. Can you honestly say the Jays are closer to the World Series than when he took over? The Jays have yet to play a meaningful game in August during his regime. The idiotic Vernon Wells contract appears to have crippled the club. It was a bad move at the time, and it looks far worse today. Not only has he assembled non playoff contending clubs year after year, he has also called his former assistant an idiot, and questioned the character of one of the premier sluggers in the game. Oh yeah, on his WWJP segment, he routinely talked down to the callers (most were probably paying customers).

Roy Halladay is my favorite baseball player of all-time. I’ve never met him, but he seems like a great guy with all his charity work. Oh yeah, he’s also a pretty good pitcher. A first class person and player deserves better than a 2nd rate organization. If you want to win the World Series, you should be adding players like Halladay and not subtracting. If Halladay is dealt, it will be for 60 cents on the dollar. Regardless of the sport, the team that receives the single player wins the trade at least %80 of the time. Ask any Twins fan if they feel like they won or even broke even on the Santana trade. In the current economic climate, very few teams can take on Halladay’s contract. Anybody that thinks the Jays would receive multiple blue chip prospects/young established all-star type players is suffering from a drug-induced fantasy. And by trading Halladay for prospects/young players, you’re basically telling the fans and the rest of the team that you are rebuilding. If you thought the attendance was bad this season, just wait until next season when you see crowds under 10,000.

You know who I feel sorry for? You. You’re just like me and will stick around and watch a meaningless game in late July because you love the Jays. You and I deserve better than this. I wish I could tell you things will get better in the near future but I would just be pissing in your ear and telling you it’s raining.

Can you believe a team that was 13 games above .500, getting break out/bounce back seasons from a bevy of players, and a good fielding club could stop playing meaningful games in early July?

If Doc is going to be traded, trade him to the Red Sox or Yankees. He has earned it.

#1 - People who say they will stop following the Jays if they trade Halladay, your not really a Jays fan to begin with.

#2 - Yes the Jays best chance to win next year is with Halladay, but are they really going to be better than the Red Sox, and Yankees?  Because if they are not, then they will probably get more for Halladay this year, and you have to what is best for the team in the long run. There have been 11 World Series since Halladay has broke into the league, he hasnt been in one of them so winning without him can be done.

I just dont know if this collection of players is really good enough to win in the East. They are a good team, I really enjoy watching them but they have deficencies. Any team that has to sign David Delluci is missing pieces. Not to mention the starting rotation is decimated. No Marcum coming back will not save them either. If they can trade some of their vets for close to ready prospects to build around guys like Snider, Hill and Lind. Plus they have Romero, Rzepczynski, Cecil, Richmond, Marcum, Litsch for their rotation, thats a good group to start with. 

Pop quiz, give me the first and last name of the Jays owners. Don’t feel bad, I couldn’t name one either.

Rogers Communications.

I know that people want young, potential superstars, but I say forget that and go for actual superstars.   Call the Mets and ask about Reyes and Wright, both of whom are struggling this year.   When the Phillies call, tell them you'll take their problem, Rollins, Howard, whomever, and they can take Wells in the deal.  If these types of offers get laughed at, fine, don't trade Halladay.

Halladay is the face of the franchise.  There is no reason to make any deal unless you get a face back and Halladay wants to move.  Rolen, Scutaro, Wells and Halladay and $ for Wright, Reyes and Martinez would float my boat if it came to that.  The Mets have a new park and need to win, so you never know how much they'd give up.

Well, you or I would do that deal, but the Mets never would. Take that trade suggestion over to Primer and see how it floats.

Halladay is the face of the franchise. There is no reason to make any deal unless you get a face back and Halladay wants to move. Rolen, Scutaro, Wells and Halladay and $ for Wright, Reyes and Martinez would float my boat if it came to that. The Mets have a new park and need to win, so you never know how much they'd give up.

I'd want to figure a way to get Beltran instead of Wright - they seem quite attached to their 3B... Okay, really I just want Beltran to bring his ocular enhancer machine. That thing sounds crazy!

Well, you or I would do that deal, but the Mets never would. Take that trade suggestion over to Primer and see how it floats.

I took it to Primer.  Here are some of the responses:

 You want to trade a handful of 33 year olds for a handful of 20-25 year olds?  those guys are worse than our guys, and we have Santana.

I think the Mets would make that deal if Wright and Reyes were dead.

No, short of Pujols they (Wright and Reyes) ain’t going anywhere.

I can’t see it, because there’s no way they deal Wright and Reyes is at a relatively low ebb for his value right now.

Also, Reyes is signed through 2011 on the cheap, and Wright through 2013 pretty cheap.  He could continue to hit like Ozzie Guillen and still be cheap.  They are both Met friendly contracts.

Yes, if they were dead.  Halladay is terrific, but the Mets pitching isn’t really an issue (if healthy). 

I don't have a problem with trading any particular player (even Halladay) if the price is right and it fits into the team's current competitive situation (i.e. are they contending, rebuilding, or what?).

What bothers me is that I don't have a good idea of how Rogers sees the whole picture. My concern is that they believe the best profit-maximizing strategy is to be decent, but not try to compete anything close to dollar-wise with the Yankees and Red Sox, get decent attendance and good TV ratings. They may think that spending higher won't be cost effective. This is why I don't like corporate ownership.

This is not a small market. As a fan, I'll support a team that's rebuilding when that's called for, I'll support a team that's trying to win even if the execution of it is flawed. But if ownership's position is that they can't or won't try to compete then I would have to question my continuing support. Being in a division with New York and Boston has its unique challenges, but it was accomplished successfully here before.

I wouldn't trade Halladay. The organization needs to treat Wells contract as a sunk cost - a very, very bad decision - and deal with it and build around it.

Perhaps excessive booing of Wells is what is needed, given his absurd home/road splits.

However, what about Rolen and Halladay to the Rangers for Andrus and Salty and maybe a young pitching prospect not named Holland (although if you could get Holland, obviously you take him!)? Can Salty still play catcher? This would be the requirement for me to make this trade happen. The Jays get younger and cheaper, the Rangers can move Young back to SS and put Rolen at 3B.  Young is not really a SS anymore, but meh, neither is Jeter.

Blah, I really don't like thinking about Halladay trade proposals. It just isn't right.

You get a player like this once, maybe twice a generation. You do what you can to keep him in your organization forever. Sure, the Sox traded Ruth, but at what cost?

Can everyone please forget the Rangers?

They needed to take a loan from MLB to meet their payroll.  They aren't adding players with 10 figure salaries.

To quote Major League... well then cross them off the list.

• Adam Jones, George Sherrill, Tony Butler, Chris Tillman, Kameron Mickolio

• Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey

• Carlos Gonzalez, Brett Anderson, Aaron Cunningham, Greg Smith, Dana Eveland, Chris Carter

I think finding a trading partner during the season is very tricky, that's why I would prefer that the Jays table trading Doc until the offseason.  That way you have more time and a calmer atmosphere to allow both sides to really develop a strategy.  Plus this also enhances the possibility of  maybe "forcing" the team taking Doc to take Vernon's contract as well (ala the Josh Beckett/Mike Lowell deal).  Because I hate to say it, but as long as VW's on the books here in Toronto, you're never going to be able to assemble a winner.

I honestly believe that the only way the Jays can compete in the AL East is to keep developing from within and sign these home grown players to contracts like Rios, Hill, VW's first extension, etc.  BUT right when you do that, start prepping their heir apparents in A+ & AA because that next extension (VW's current one as an example) will not fit in with this team's budget.  The Jays can handle 6 to 9 guys nearing their prime making $7-$15 mil/year, but can't swallow 2 or 3 guys making $15 mil+ that have reached thier peak!

Jim, to be fair, David Pinto over at baseballmusings.com has a piece about trading Halladay to the Rangers, so I'm not alone in thinking the Rangers are a good fit, finances aside. 

Depends what they can get for Halladay.  A few years ago, Cleveland traded Bartolo Colon to Montreal when he was one of the best SP in the game.  In return, they got Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips (the Reds 2B).   That is a monster return for a guy who was very good, but not as good as Halladay. 

Halladay is 32, has a career ERA of about 3.50, and has won more than 16 games in a season just 3 times.  Yes, he's a very, very good pitcher, a fine gentleman, and the team's best player.  He is currently at a very high point in his value, having come off a great 2008 season, and having another great year this season.  At this point in time, you could argue that he is the best starting pitcher in the game.  If it looks like you can't sign him, and I wouldn't be surprised if Roy decides he wants to go elsewhere if he feels the Jays aren't going to be contending for the post season, you have him for only another year and a half.  Why not explore your options?  If you can get a very good package for him, I say go for it.

(figuring the Jays can take on that $16 million that Halladay would've been paid in 2010).

If they could do that why would they trade him?  It's pretty clear they can't anyway. 

I guarantee that there are about 30 teams that would be willing to give up more than a Brandon League-type guy to get him.

If you can get Wood for League you make that move and hang up the phone laughing.  I don't think much of Wood, but League has no value at this point.

that's is definitely worth a lot more than a mediocre middle reliever.

I wasn't particularly addressing that part of the rumour but the half-dozen or so posts recently that seem to think he's some top prospect still or that he can play SS.  I might make the League trade myself and give him Miller's role since he wouldn't really have anywhere to play.  I think this might be his last option year as well.  As for the comparison to Arencibia, well Arencibia is a year younger and plays a position that has lower offensive expectations.  Could Wood be converted to catcher?  That would make him far more desirable.

Here’s a gem from Eric Wilbur of the Boston Globe “Does Ricciardi stick to his guns in Year 8 of his 32-year rebuilding plan, or does he try to improve for the long-term, whatever that term means these days in Toronto.”

I’ve been calling for the firing of JP for years and at this point, even the biggest JP boosters can no longer make a rational argument as to why he should continue in his position.

Since we are all playing Jays GM...depending on the direction of the team, there are a number of ways to get Wood from the Angels without Halladay. I don't see this as a fit unless Weaver/Wood are coming back, in which case it would definately be worth considering.

As I said earlier, Rolen for Wood makes sense to me. Sure, they currently use Figgins there but he can play anywhere and he is an impending FA. So it could work.

If they want a reliever, I'd be inclined to move Frasor for Wood. League, as others have said, can't have much value now. Heck, if it takes Scott Downs to get Wood I say do it. The left side of the Blue Jays infield is the biggest glaring hole going forward (once Rolen leaves) and this is a chance to get a Troy Glaus-type bat. Sure, his value has faded right now...but so had Carlos Quentin's and Adam Lind's. He has potential and I'd never write off a guy like that until he gets a fair shot in the majors, which he hasn't...ever.

My number 1 choice is still keeping Roy. If JP needs to clear some money in other ways to have a payroll around $85 mill in 2010, so be it. I'd like to see Scoot resigned (maybe $5 mill)...move Rios for a prospect (i.e. Franceour & Schaefer?) and, if necessary, move Downs' $4 mill in 2010 to get someone like Wood. So the only things that change about the 2010 offence are the catcher, RF & DH which could be replaced internally by JPA/Snider/Wood/Schaefer...tons of potential there but I say you make one more run at resigning Roy. He is the most valuable player in baseball - this is not AJ Burnett or Carlos Delgado. He IS the reason we are a team that is good enough to have a shot at making the playoffs in every other division except the AL East. He is the one advantage we have over every other team in the AL East. He is why we still have a respectable ERA with our emaciated rotation...because no other number 1 in our division is that close to Roy. I think if a chance exists to resign him (and I have to believe there is a solid chance) you keep him and run the risk of losing him as a FA. He is irreplacable. I say go all in for 2010 and if we make the playoffs or a legit run (i.e. 90 wins) I think he may very well stay. He clearly wants to win in TO...Rios is movable so clear some money that way...

BJ Ryan: 15 million

Frank Thomas: 8 million

Corey Koskie: 7.1 million

Eric Hinske: 2.8 million

Even Bernie Madoff is blushing.

If Wood is currently an average SS, he would be GG calibre with one year of Butterfield...of so one would hope...

There is a call for you on Line 1, a Mr Russ Adams...

The JP sunk cost team doesn't include Wells, who still has 5 years and $100 million + to go!

I have been saying JP had to go and this team needed to go with the rebuild for over a year now.  With a trade of Doc, either now or in the offseason, you would hope that someone in the Coroprate headquarters would realize that contention in 2010 is a myth.  They need to get someone in who doesn't need to protect his previous mistakes to overhaul the team.

The current similarity to the end of Gord Ash era is eerie.

If Wood is an average SS then I can't see Aybar blocking him or the Angels having a 31 year old playing the position in AAA instead of him.

There are tonnes of examples of playing time / position / place in batting order / etc that have nothing to do with performance... this one hits close to home, though.

As for in the minors, he's splitting time 50-50 between 3b and SS, with what looks like an obvious attempt to maintain his versatility (whether that be for their own use or trade is another matter).

What Mike said.

I believe Ricciardi's problem is not that he's done a really bad job, it's that he hasn't been a magician.

The fans are frustrated, but you aren't going to beat the Yankees and Red Sox with an $80 million payroll.

you aren't going to beat the Yankees and Red Sox with an $80 million payroll

Tell that to the Rays

Tell that to the Rays

Please.  The Rays tanked for a decade and had a Top 3 pick in almost every draft the past 8-10 years.  That strategy works when your organization has no desire to win, just tank and build up from within and get lucky as all your top prospects mature at the same time.  This franchise, being in a large market (granted a crappy baseball market) isn't ever going to tolerate losing the way the Rays lost before they were able to finally "turn the corner" by bringing up prospects from within.

So they are eating $15 million of Ryan's contract.  I guess a key point to consider is how are they accounting for that money internally.  If they are absorbing the loss this year, then they may have just opened up $10 million of salary room for 2010.  I can see the same thing happening with the Wells contract in about 3-4 years time, only the swallowing is going to be a whole lot tougher to digest.

BTW, for those asking who really are the owners of the Jays, to a certain extent, you are.  Rogers Communications is a publicly traded company, and is a member of the TSX composite Index and the TSX 60, so shares are held by virtually any Canadian company pension plan, by the CPP, by most Canadian equity mutual funds, by Canadian ETFs, any Canadian Index fund, etc.  There are very few adults in Canada who don't own at least an indirect share of Rogers Communications.

Could the team be for sale?  I am not sure how buyers value baseball teams but traditional business's are valued at a multiple of profits.  If you drop payroll you increase profits, and make it easier to sell the team.

Ted Rogers died recently which might change the internal outlook on the team and, in addition, media companies have been divesting themselves of sports teams.

If the team is for sale, maybe Jim Ballsillie will stop banging his head against Gary Bettman's brick wall and try his hand at owning a baseball team.

I don't know how the second quarter is going, but Rogers reported net income of $309 million in the first quarter of 2009. I hope the Blue Jays aren't going to drive them into bankruptcy.

Haha Will...I was thinking the same thing about Tallet & Frasor for Wood earlier today...before Tallet's blowup. I am still of the opinion that this team can compete for a playoff spot in 2010 (i.e. 90+ wins). I believe Will has mentioned this before and it still holds true...the Blue Jays can "rebuild" all they want - the Yankees and Red Sox will still be there every year. With Marcum possibly back in August, Romero looking good, Rzepcynski being the next Brandon Webb (I will trust that comparison because it makes me feel better about the Jays), Cecil still a guy with a top of the rotation arm who has looked solid at times...this could be a very good rotation in 2010. The one thing we need is another slugging left-handed bat. I highly doubt this happens, but this is all I'd want the team to do heading into 2010...

1. Something along the lines of Frasor/Tallet (and Purcey if necessary) for Brandon Wood. Trades will never happen exactly the way you want them to, but I like this general idea. He can play the 1B/3B/DH role that Hillenbrand had in 2006 (and backup SS) and take over 3B in 2011.

2. Resign Scoot (I dunno, 2 years $10 mill with an option seems fair)

3. Trade Rios for prospects. He should still have positive trade value given his ability to play CF.

4. Use the $10 mill allotted for Rios in 2010 on a LH slugger (Adam Dunn!)

5. Replace (or resign for one year) Barajas...maybe Barrett, whatever - the Jays clearly don't have much money to spend.

That would probably make the payroll in the $100 mill range for 2010 which is around where it would have been anyway without selling off players. Even if all you can get is a Bobby Abreu type for 1 year $5 mill that is fine. Two of Abreu/Wood/Snider can fill the DH and RF slot.

Yah, maybe I am overly optimistic...but I'd rather gamble and have a chance at keeping Doc (you can always move him at the 2010 trade deadline and get someone like a Matt Laporta one would hope).

P.S. If Doc is moved to the Phillies, Knapp/Drabek/Carrasco/Donald seems fair to me. I highly doubt JP moves Halladay for the best package if the best package isn't a clear pilfering of the opposing GM's farm system.

One alternate scenario that will probably enrage everyone who is in love with Halladay (including myself, but meh)...

1. Sell Halladay for prospects.

2. Trade for Erik Bedard (i.e. Tallet & Purcey?) and extend him for 2 years, maybe $20 mill (no idea what his market value is now considering the injury/durability issues).

I think I heard a while ago that Bedard is looking like a type B...so, really, how much would the cost be?

Adding prospects for Halladay and getting a replacement in the rotation might save some face by adding a Canadian (though I really couldn't care less about that).

Now, I highly doubt that the Dodgers would include Kershaw...but let's say for example that the Jays trade Halladay for Kershaw and minor leaguer(s) X. Let's say the Jays trade Tallet and minor leaguer(s) X for Bedard and then extend him for a couple of years. Bedard obviously has huge injury concerns...but...Bedard and Kershaw may very well be more useful for the 2010 Blue Jays than Halladay and Tallet. Plus, the Jays could have an all lefty rotation (and Marcum) with Bedard/Kershaw/Rzepcsynski/Romero/Cecil...JP's dream...

As much as I'd hate trading Doc, from a financial and competitive sense, I think the Jays could be better off with Bedard and Kershaw...

It’s completely ridiculous. All that Ricciardi said—this is not his fault, I think he was pretty clear—if somebody calls, we’re going to listen. And if we get a great offer that knocks us over we’ll go to Doc, who has a blanket no-trade clause, and talk to him about it. That’s all he said. He never said ‘we’re going to trade him’, he never said ‘he’s available’... Settle down, kids. He’s not going anywhere right now. Halladay loves pitching in Toronto. He loves the organization, really likes Ricciardi—they’ve got a great relationship—likes working with Arnsberg, the pitching coach, so… from his perspective he’s certainly got no desire to go pitch somewhere else at this point.

Keith Law and Bart Given have both worked in the front office and are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to this story.

On the rumour front, when a source in the St. Louis Front Office was asked what they would offer for Halladay, he said they would show Ricciardi their minor league system and ask him to circle any five names.  Interesting times indeed.

Perhaps Doc would be amenable to a ridiculous amount of money for a one year extension, with a signing bonus added to 2010 so his 2011 price is not prohibitive to potential trading partners either at the 2010 trade deadline or later that winter...

For example, a 1 year $28.25 million extension with a $5.25 million bonus for 2010. Hence, Doc gets $21 million in 2010 and $23 million in 2011 (same as VW). JP would have to sell him on the fact that the 2010 team will contend (90 wins) or show signs of being a true contender going forward. He obviously has a great relationship with JP (as Law says); this is why he has never come close to free agency; definately JP's biggest accomplishment in my opinion.

I think this is merely a case of the grass is greener on the other side, I can think of no good reason for trading VW's bad contract for Zito's bad contract.

I fully agree. If VW hit the way he did last year for 2/3rds of a year over a full year and gets 25 SB's, I believe teams would pay anywhere between $60-$75 million for the remaining 5 years of his contract. Presumably whichever team wanted him would "believe" in his CF defence...hence, I think the Jays would be better off eating up between 1/3rd and 1/2 of VW's contract and moving him for prospects once his offence becomes decent, which it should. Heck, he had a .932 OPS with 11 HR's in 44 games after the all-star break and has hit reasonably well on the road this year. He should improve...and then...trade him! Rios can man CF and maybe Sierra in RF by 2011.

I really don't understand the idea of trading Vernon Wells for Barry Zito.

It's working under the assumption that the defensive stats are accurate and he's no longer a centerfielder. Obviously, if the numbers don't belie his skillset or teams still perceive him to be average or better in centerfield, he has significantly more value.

If his defense is shot, then you're looking at an average-to-mediocre corner outfielder (currently playing like a bad one) getting paid about $15M-$18M above current market value, signed through 2014. Considering Zito is at least a #4 starter (maybe a decent #3 now that he's restored his 1.5mph lost velocity this year) and is getting paid either $24M or $11M less over the same span (depending on if his 2014 option vests).

I was reading an article on the Washington Post's website that was actually faintly praising JP for his assemblance of pitching depth that has allowed the team to stay afloat above 0.500 as long as they did.  But the part of the article that REALLY caught my eye was the writer's comment regarding possible suiters for Doc.  To paraphrase what he wrote:

"If the Yankees were to come to JP and say we'll take Doc and also take Vernon's contract off your hands, for Hughes and Austin Jackson.  How can JP say no?"

$52 million for Halladay’s performance + $8 million for the draft picks = $60 million in total value. He will be paid $22 million over that time frame, so 60-22 = $38 million.

To acquire the Jays ace, teams should be expected to surrender something like $40 million in value.

Getting full value will be difficult, although if he leaves at the end of the day the value of the two draft picks will be around only $8 million dollars. He has a no trade contract so he controls his destiny, that could drive down the auction price considerably. Push for 2010 or use Halladay as a chip to re-build for further down the road? Tough question.

There is no way a deal with the Yankees happens like that.  There is no one who will take Wells' contract and give players.  JP can't trade Halladay and not get back players even if he gets rid of Wells' money.

The Yankees would just do what they did on Sabathia.  Wait until he's a free agent and pay him, instead of paying $114 million for Wells and prospects.

There is no way in the world that Riccardi can move Wells' money without paying the vast majority of it.

My point is from the Yankees' point of view.  Why would they pay 2 good prospects and $114 million dollars for the extra year and a half when they could just sign him in 2011?

Roy might never sign with the Yankees, this is true, but they aren't going to assume that and make a ridiculous trade because of that assumption.

My point is from the Yankees' point of view.  Why would they pay 2 good prospects and $114 million dollars for the extra year and a half when they could just sign him in 2011?

1.  He could say no

2. The team that does trade for him would most likely lock him up on  along term deal 

I am not commenting on a specific proposal but if the Yankees want him the only sure way is to trade for him.

This seems to be a recurring argument but I'm not sure it's true.  Look at some of the top contributors this year for the Rays ... Zobrist, Bartlett, the Grapler outfield platoon, Howell, Cormier, Iwamura, Wheeler and Pena were all shrewd pickups available to any team.  Kazmir and Navarro, while struggling, are good young players who prove you can get good young players for veterans.

The Rays have done many things right in the last few years.  It is one thing to have the first overall selection, but knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em is important.  The Young/Garza-Bartlett trade is a classic example, and may end up going down as a more one-sided deal than the Pierzynski/Nathan-Liriano deal of a few years back.

In my opinion, it is pretty shortsighted when people try to "factor out" the high 1st round picks of the Rays and say "look at everything else they have done well." There are two fallacies I notice with the Rays.

# 1: This team is winning because they sucked for 10 years and accumulated high first round picks. While I agree there is no way the Rays win without this (let's not forget that Garza and Bartlett would NEVER have been acquired without the alleged upside of Delmon Young which came from a high draft pick, though they obviously get credit for the trade), lots of teams have done this and failed so I give the Rays credit.

#2: The Rays are a great "draft/development" team. Ok - I am not giving them much credit for their high draft picks like Young/Upton/Longoria/Price/Niemann...and frankly, there isn't a whole lot on this team that indicates they have drafted well beyond these guys. I see Shields and Crawford. Quite frankly, the Rays, based on their current ML roster have drafted HORRIBLY outside of the top 5 draft picks. Why do they get credit for being an up and coming team? Because publications like Baseball America have been praising their farm system for years but what exactly has it produced other than those players who were drafted high? It has been brutal, though I am sure that will change very soon and there will be a new wave of Rays prospects who have been drafted/developed...but it hasn't happened yet so I REFUSE to give them credit because the fact is they have drafted horribly. They have failed on other high draft picks as well so I really don't think, for example, one can say that JP couldn't have done the same thing: hit on top 5 picks and draft TWO contributors outside of that. We can see that JP has been solid at drafting outside of the top 30 picks.

A ton of the Rays success has clearly come from these "lightning in a bottle" type moves. But do the Yankees/Red Sox have the roster space for those types of moves? Heck no. Otherwise maybe Pena would have lasted with one of those two organizations. And the Rays have been good at selling players every year (a side effect of sucking) and acquired Kazmir, Navarro, Jackson...but as soon as THEY had a roster crunch, they have to trade Jackson and look what happens?

Does anyone think the Jays would have developed as many young SP as they have in recent years without the roster space? Sure they all end up on the DL, but it creates more roster space! Frankly, I think JP has done an excellent job considering...

Just so my last post was clear: The Rays have drafted/developed TERRIBLY and the proof is in the non-top 5 draft picks on their roster…Crawford & Shields and THAT IS IT!

The world was a different place when Hunter signed.  The money just isn't there except in a few markets.  Wells also comes with a stigma at this point, only a handful of GMs have the unqualified support of ownership to make a move on a player whose contract has been so publicly maligned for so long.

Dave Cameron wrote a piece at Fangraphs about Rios.  I could not disagree with him more.  Rios has no instincts and that is a huge hit to his trade value.  Those types of players drive baseball people crazy.

"My point is from the Yankees' point of view."

Wowser..... I hope you haven't blown your cover, but I doubt JP visits this site ;)

Funny... The last thing I am in the world is a Yankees fan.  That's actually how I became a Jays 'fan'.  I hate Boston and New York with a passion and I sort of fell in with Toronto hoping that they would be the franchise that would compete.  Turns out I was wrong about that, but it's easy enough to follow along with XM and Directv. 

I've been to Dunedin 4 out of the last 5 years, Skydome a couple of times (of course one of those trips was for a football game...) and I have 2 Eastern League teams within 20 minutes where I can check out New Hampshire a few times a year. 

I believe Ricciardi stopped reading here years ago when he didn't like some of the things that were being posted about him.  I don't think he's a 'bad' GM...  his record is a bit of a mixed bag, and the Jays/O's/Rays have the deck stacked against them unlike any other teams in the league.  That being said it's pretty clear he's never going to build a winner here, so why waste anymore time watching a futile effort. 

He needs to make a franchise altering move and he needs to make it in the next 3 weeks.  If he waits until the offseason he's going to lose even more leverage, and every time Halladay heads towards the mound the possibility exists he walks off the mound injured and with no trade value.   It's going to be difficult and he's going to be unpopular, but that is what comes with the job. 

Fair post, Jim.  I was getting a little tired of your negativism over the past few days, but after reading that post and seeing where you're coming from, I feel differently.  I'm inclined to agree with you about the franchise altering move.  I'm not convinced that someone can meet the price though.  I'd keep him and take the picks unless someone "comes to play". 

I'm really getting tired of the level of competition in this division.

I'm really getting tired of the level of competition in this division.

Totally agreed - I want Halladay traded to whoever can put us in the central or balance the schedule - I don't care about the prospects. We'd be better off getting nothing for Halladay and balancing the schedule then keeping Halladay and giving it endless attempts in this division, without a much bigger payroll.

Balancing the schedule wouldn't really make them any more competitive on it's own. 

Toronto's schedule would be easier, but New York's and Boston's would become easier as well and it would be a wash.

Toronto would need to eliminate the divisional structure or move to another division. 

I know it's 'negative', but I don't think some of the posters here realize just how dire the situation is for Toronto.  They are on the edge of spending a Devil Ray like decade in the basement.  The organization has dug itself a huge hole.

I know I don't have a 'crystal ball' and they still need to play the games, but there is almost no way to field a major league roster on 80 million dollars when you are paying 3/8th of it to 2 decent players.  I always thought the idea that the Rangers couldn't win because of A-Rod was nonsense, but the longer I look at the money the Jays have promised, I'm starting to see a bit of the point.  

I get that the rotation has promise, but without Halladay it could very easily be a decent rotation and still be the worst in the division.  If the rotation is the worst in the division they are losing 90-95 games at least, because there is no possibility that they can make up any difference in the lineup.  Even if Snider is an All-Star and a couple of other guys suprise they are going to be light years behind the Sox and Yankees offenses. 

It's a bit of hyperbole, but there is a chance that Toronto turns into another Montreal.  Trading Halladay is going to turn off a lot of people and it's going to take a great couple of years from the front office to keep this team over .500.  What happens if the bounty for Halladay busts?  What if the bounty for Halladay busts and Snider busts? 

You could see attendance down under 1.5 million, a 65-70 million dollar payroll and a team that is a hundred games under .500 between now and when Wells' contract expires. 

He has 2 years to win. If he doesn't by then, he's out too.

You must be a Leafs fan.

You know, of course, that any experienced GM who's available to be hired is someone who's been fired by somebody else.

you must be a leafs fan.