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I was saving this for tomorrow, but with the prospect of three pitchers hitting the DL all at once, it seems best to add this information to the discussion.



Back in November 2006, Sports Illustrated's Tom Verducci wrote a column identifying a group of young pitchers he expected would struggle in the coming season. What concerned him was something he called the "Year-After Effect:"

It's based on a general rule of thumb among executives and pitching coaches: young pitchers should not have their innings workload increased by more than 25 or 30 innings per year.

Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to examine Toronto pitchers over the years, and see what we could see. Let's begin with the current group, work our way back, and flag anything that looks interesting:

 Brett Cecil
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors   Amateur  Increase
2008  21  118.2   ---- 118.2   6.2
2007  20  112.0   ---- 49.2     62.1

Nothing to see here. Yet.  But you can understand why a lot of people think it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Cecil may find himself working out of the Jays' bullpen later this year. If he's back in the major leagues at all. Cecil pitched mostly in relief in college, he's still very young, and I don't know that I would want to see him pitch much more than 150 innings in 2009. Well, he's almost halfway there already (73.2 IP) and it's still June.


Robert Ray
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors   Amateur  Increase
2008  24  167.0  ---- 167.0   ---- 100.1
2007  23  66.2  ---- 66.2   ---- 18.0
2006  22  48.2  ---- 48.2   ---- -77.1
2005  21  126.0  ---- 61.2  64.1

That 100 inning jump from 2007 to 2006 certainly looks alarming - however Ray was injured in both 2006 (14 games, 9 starts) and 2007 (18 games, 15 starts). I'm not sure whether this is good news or bad news. The good news is that Ray went through injuries at ages 22 and 23 - most pitchers do - but survived to make it to the major leagues. Lots of pitchers don't, and the injuries meant he didn't throw a lot of innings at a young age. The bad news, of course, is that he got hurt. Pitchers who injure themselves once will often injure themselves again. That's what pitching does to most human arms.

Jesse Litsch
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors   Amateur  Increase
2008  23  196.0  176.0  20.0   ---- 8.2
2007  22  187.1  111.0  76.1   ---- 28.2
2006  21  158.2 ---- 158.2   ---- 83.0
2005  20  75.2 ---- 75.2   ----
Everything appears as you would want it, but he hurt himself anyway. Litsch was a draft and follow out of high school in 2004 who pitched in community college before turning pro in 2005. Don't know how much he pitched, however.

Ricky Romero
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors  Amateur  Increase
2008  23  164.1 ---- 164.1  ----  71.1
2007  22  93.0 ---- 93.0  ---- -32.2
2006  21  125.2 ---- 125.2  ---- -39.0
2005  20  166.2 ---- 32.2   134.0
The bump last season is 39 IP more than his previous high as a pro, but Romero pitched more than that as a 20 year old, and he pitched 155 IP in college while still a teenager. I'd still hope he can be kept below 200 IP this year.

Casey Janssen
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors  Amateur  Increase
2008  26  ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
2007  25  72.2 72.2   ----  ---- -64.0
2006  24  136.2  94.0  42.2  ---- -12.0
2005  23  148.2   ---- 148.2  ---- -18.0
2004  22  166.2  ---- 50.0  116.2 94.2
2003 21 72.0 ---- ---- 72.0
No red flags as a pro; the frightening data comes from his days at UCLA.

David Purcey
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors  Amateur  Increase
2008  26  182.0  65.0  117.0  ---- 120.0
2007  25  62.0   ---- 62.0  ---- -78.0
2006  24  140.0   ---- 140.0  ----  2.2
2005  23  137.1   ---- 137.1  ---- 4.2
2004  22  132.2   ---- 12.0  118.2 60.0
2003 21 ---- ---- ---- 72.2
Purcey went by his previous career high by 42 IP last year - however, he was already 26 years old by that time. Like Janssen, it's that final year of college that looks most alarming.

Shaun Marcum
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors  Amateur  Increase
2008  26  168.1  151.1  17.0  ----  9.1
2007  25  159.0  159.0   ---- ---- 28.0
2006  24  131.0  78.1  52.2  ---- -34.0
2005  23  165.0  8.0  157.0 ----   17.0
2004  22  148.0  ---- 148.0  ---- 60.0
2003  21  78.0  ---- 34.0   44.0
His workload since turning pro has been remarkably consistent over the years - the drop in 2006 is largely because he spent the first month of the season pitching out of the pen. He has never thrown a complete game in the major leagues - the most pitches he has ever thrown in a major league game is 114 (last May, 8 innings of two-hit shutout against Cleveland.) The big jump in Marcum's first full year as a pro is created for the most part by his changing role - he pitched out of the bullpen in college and when he first turned pro. In 2004 he went into the rotation.

David Bush
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors  Amateur  Increase
2005  25  191.1  136.1  55.0  ----  -6.1
2004  24  197.2  97.2  100.0  ----  39.2
2003  23  158.0   ---- 158.0  ---- 62.1
2002  22  95.2   ---- 35.2  60.0 21.2
2001 21 74.0 ---- ---- 74.0
Like Cecil, Bush was a reliever at college. Bush, however, was older when he turned pro and older when he made his ML debut. Not piling up a lot of innings early on was probably good for him, but switching from the pen to the rotation did make his innings jump.

Davis Romero
Year   Age       IP    Majors   Minors  Increase
2008  25  106.2   ---- 106.2  106.2
2007  24  ---- ---- ----- -----
2006  23  134.2  16.1  118.1   10.0
2005  22  124.2   ---- 124.2   21.2
2004  21  103.0  ---- 103.0   61.1
2003  20  41.2   ---- 41.2   -8.1
2002  19  50.1   ---- 50.1  
The big jump in Romero's innings pitched comes about because he started working as a starter in 2004 after pitching exclusively in relief as a 20 year old. He was starting some of the time, anyway. Actually, Romero went back and forth between the bullpen and the rotation for three seasons running, from 2004 through 2006. It doesn't seem to have agreed with him.

Brandon League
Year   Age      IP    Majors    Minors  Increase
2008  25  67.1  33.0  34.1   29.0
2007  24  38.1  11.2  26.2   -59.0
2006  23  97.1  42.2  54.2   -1.1
2005  22  98.2  35.2  63.0   -10.0
2004  21  108.2  4.2  104.0   -28.2
2003  20  137.0  ---- 137.0   51.2
2002  19  85.2  ---- 85.2   47.0
2001  18  38.2   ---- 38.2  
League was moving from short season A ball as a 19 year old to regular and advanced A ball the following season. He was working pretty well exclusively as a starter during these years - 73 of his 75 appearances in those first three seasons came as a starter.

Dustin McGowan
Year   Age      IP    Majors    Minors  Increase
2008  26  111.1  111.1  ----  -80.1
2007  25  191.2  169.2  22.0   80.1
2006  24  111.1  27.1  84.0   10.0
2005  23  101.1  45.1  56.0   70.1
2004  22  31.0  ---- 31.0   -121.1
2003  21  152.1  ---- 152.1   4.0
2002  20  148.1  ---- 148.1   81.1
2001  19  67.0  ---- 67.0   42.0
2000  18  25.0   ---- 25.0  
Dustin McGowan shows up with two seasons flagged, which is alarming. He's also lost one season to Tommy John surgery (shortly after the first flagged season) and a second year to shoulder surgery (soon after the second flagged year.) McGowan was one of the pitchers Verducci singled out as someone to be concerned about. So yeah, I guess you could see that one coming.


Gustavo Chacin
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
2008  27  45.2   ---- 45.2   8.2
2007  26  37.0  27.1  9.2   -65.2
2006  25  102.2  87.1  15.1   -100.8
2005  24  203.0  203.0    ---- 35.0
2004  23  168.0  14.0  154.0   98.2
2003  22  69.1  ---- 69.1   -50.1
2002  21  119.2  ---- 119.2   -20.2
2001  20  140.1  ---- 140.1   7.2
2000  19  132.2   ---- 132.2   68.2
1999  18  64.0  ---- 64.0  
Verducci also singled out Chacin as someone to be worried about - his 203 IP in the majors in 2005 surpassed his previous career high by 35. Chacin's arm fell off soon afterwards, of course. (The big jump in 2004 is simply Chacin returning to the rotation after pitching out of the bullpen in 2003.)


Roy Halladay
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
2004  27  133.0  133.0     ---- -133.0
2003  26  266.0  266.0    ---- 26.2
2002  25  239.1  239.1    ---- 63.1
2001  24  176.0  105.1  70.2   34.2

2000  23  141.1  67.2  73.2   -8.0
1999  22  149.1  149.1   ---- 19.0
1998  21  130.1  14.0  116.1   -32.0
1997  20  162.1  ---- 162.1   -2.1
1996  19  164.2   ---- 164.2   114.1
1995  18  50.1  ---- 50.1  
Halladay's big jump is 2001 partially reflects the fact that he'd pitched quite a bit in relief in 1999 and 2000 - he didn't actually surpass his previous career high (established when he was still a teenager) by very much. The real big jump in his season workload happens when he's 25, and it looks like he was mature enough to handle it.

Kelvim Escobar
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
2003  27  180.1  180.1   ---- 102.1
2002  26  78.0  78.0   ---- -48.0
2001  25  126.0  126.0   ---- -54.0
2000  24  180.0  180.0   ---- 6.0
1999  23  174.0  174.0  ----   34.2
1998  22  139.1  79.2  59.2   72.0
1997  21  67.1  31.0 36.1   -97.0
1996  20  164.1    ---- 164.1   95.0
1995  19  69.1   ---- 69.1   4.1
1994  18  65.0   65.0  
Escobar worked almost exclusively as a starter before coming to the majors (where the Blue Jays, notoriously, changed their minds roughly every five minutes as to whether he would start or relieve for them.) I don't know why he has that huge jump in 1996 - I assume there was an injury the year before when he was at Medicine Hat.

Chris Carpenter
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
2002  27  98.0  73.1  24.2   -117.2
2001  26  215.2  215.2    ---- 40.1
2000  25  175.1  175.1  ----   21.1
1999  24  154.0  150.0  4.0   -21.0
1998  23  175.0  175.0   ---- -26.1
1997  22  201.1  81.1  120.0   30.0
1996  21  171.1   ---- 171.1   7.2
1995  20  163.2   ---- 163.2   79.0
1994  19  84.2   ---- 84.2  
His 1997 just makes the Verducci list - if he'd retired one fewer batter, it wouldn't be noted. He's been spectacularly great and spectacularly unhealthy since leaving the organization, but it's hard to pin that on anything that was done to him here.

Todd Stottlemyre
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
1992  27  174.0  174.0   ---- -45.0
1991  26  219.0  219.0   ---- 16.0
1990  25  203.0  203.0   ---- 19.2
1989  24  183.1  127.2  55.2   37.0
1988  23  146.1  98.0  48.1   -40.1
1987  22  186.2  ---- 186.2   -16.0
1986  21  202.2   ---- 202.2  
Todd Stottlemyre was a fabulously hyped prospect back in the day - his 1989 season gets highlighted but there's really nothing to see there. He pitched out of the major league bullpen a fair amount in 1988, which reduced his innings that season. It is somewhat startling to see a 21 year old throw 200 IP in the minors. Those were the days.

Pat Hentgen
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
1996  27  265.2  265.2   ---- 65.0
1995  26  200.2  200.2   ---- 26.0
1994  25  174.2  174.2 ----    -41.2
1993  24  216.1  216.1  ----   146.0
1992  23  70.1  50.1  20.0   -108.1
1991  22  178.2  7.1  171.1   25.1
1990  21  153.1   ---- 153.1   2.0
1989  20  151.1   ---- 151.1   0.0
1988  19  151.1   ---- 151.1   -36.2
1987  18  188.0   ---- 188.0   148.0
1986  17  40.0   ---- 40.0  
Hentgen's big jump in 1993, like several others we have seen, is entirely a matter of a pitcher moving from the major league bullpen to the major league rotation. That year Hentgen actually surpassed his previous career high (established when he was 18 years old!) by only 28 IP.

Jimmy Key
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Amateur  Increase
1988  27  152.2  131.1  21.1   ---- -108.1
1987  26  261.0  261.0   ---- ---- 29.0
1986  25  232.0  232.0   ---- ---- 19.8
1985  24  212.2  212.2   ---- ---- 150.2
1984  23  62.0  62.0    ---- ---- -128.1
1983  22  190.1   ---- 190.1   ---- -15.0
1982  21  205.1   ---- 89.1   116.0 104.1
1981 20 91.0 ---- ---- 91.0
Key was a starter in college and in the minors who spent a year in the major league bullpen before moving into the rotation. Like several others on this list (Purcey, Janssen), we see a big jump in the final year of college/first year as a pro. Key was never quite the same - not quite as good, not quite as durable - after pitching 261 IP in 1987. He was still pretty good, though.

David Wells
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
1990  27  189.0  189.0   ---- 102.2
1989  26  86.1  86.1   ---- 16.1
1988  25  70.0  64.1  5.2   -68.2
1987  24  138.2  29.1  109.1   63.1
1986  23  75.1  ---- 75.1   75.1
1985  22 
1984  21  101.0  ---- 101.0   -56.0
1983  20  157.0   ---- 157.0   92.1
1982  19  64.1  ---- 64.1  
Wells lost his age 22 season to Tommy John surgery, and eventually made it to the majors to stay as a relief pitcher. As a result, he was already 27 years old before he pitched more innings in a year than he had at A ball. Seemed to work for him, he was durable and effective forever.

Luis Leal
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
1984  27  222.1  222.1   ---- 5.0
1983  26  217.1  217.1    ---- -32.1
1982  25  249.2  249.2   ---- 120.0
1981  24  129.2  129.2   ---- -40.0
1980  23  169.2  59.2  110.0   13.2
1979  22  156.0   ---- 156.0  
Leal was used as a swing man by Bobby Mattick in 1981 - the next year, he was featured in a four man rotation, making the majority of his starts on three days rest. It didn't seem to hurt him at the time, but soon after August 1, 1984 he went right off the cliff. At that date, Leal (aged 27) was 12-2 with a 3.09 ERA. Over the rest of the season, he went 1-6, 5.95 and after beginning the next season 3-6, 5.75 his major league career was over.

Dave Stieb
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
1985  27  265.0  265.0   ---- -2.0
1984  26  267.0  267.0  ----   -11.0
1983  25  278.0  278.0   ---- -10.1
1982  24  288.1  288.1   ---- 104.2
1981  23  183.2  183.2   ---- -59.0
1980  22  242.2  242.2   ---- 11.1
1979  21  231.1  129.1  102.0   205.1
1978  20  26.0  ---- 26.0  
Every now and then a miracle happens. Stieb had pitched very little at all before turning pro - he was drafted as an outfielder (although the Jays scouts, even then, thought his future was on the mound) - and he turned out to be a natural. A bonafide, honest-to-goodness natural. They gave him these enormous workloads at a young age... and he didn't merely survive. He prospered. He pretty well never missed a start for more than 10 years and he was in his twelfth major league season when he finally went on the Disabled List. He was a freak, I tell you. A miracle, anyway.

Jerry Garvin
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
1982  26  75.2  58.1  17.1   22.2
1981  25  53.0  53.0    ---- -29.2
1980  24  82.2  82.2    ---- -51.0
1979  23  31.2  22.2  9.0   -113.0
1978  22  144.2  144.2    ---- -100.0
1977  21  244.2  244.2  ----   11.2
1976  20  233.0  ---- 233.0   32.0
1975  19  201.0   ---- 201.0   38.0

1974  18  163.0   ---- 163.0  
Garvin and Jim Clancy (the final entry) are the only pitchers considered here who began their professional careers in another organization - the Toronto Blue Jays, of course, weren't around in 1974. Garvin was drafted out of high school by Minnesota - he was a first round pick (11th overall) in 1974, and one wishes the Twins had taken better care of him. He had pitched 841 pro innings by the time he was 21, and his arm fell off when he was 22. I think he really could have amounted to something, with better management and care. This guy drew the short straw.

Jim Clancy
Year   Age     IP     Majors    Minors  Increase
1983  27  223.0  223.0   ---- 56.1
1982  26  266.2  166.2   ---- 141.2
1981  25  125.0  125.0  ----   -125.2
1980  24  250.2  250.2  ----   187.0
1979  23  63.2  63.2  ----   -130.0
1978  22  193.2  193.2  ----   -1.0
1977  21  194.2  76.2  118.0   69.2
1976  20  125.0  ---- 125.0   -23.0
1975  19  148.0  ---- 148.0   95.0
1974  18  53.0  ----  53.0  
Clancy was also drafted out of high school in 1974 - Texas took him in the fourth round. The Rangers appear to have managed him prudently enough in his first three years as a pro. It was the Blue Jays who took over at that point, and started pushing vigourously to find what his limits might be. While 1977 is alarming enough, the real big jump in his 1980 season - he was 24 and he pitched 250 IP - is the one that really makes one wonder. That season, it turned out, would be the the best season of Clancy's career (he would have better W-L records as a decent team assembled behind him, but he would never pitch better.) Clancy was a big strong guy and he looked like a very dependable type of pitcher and person. But three of his Toronto seasons were disrupted by injury (1979, 1981, 1985 - appendicitis that last time) and another three seasons were ruined by sudden and total loss of effectiveness (he started 1984 by going 6-10, 5.47; he finished 1986 by going 0-7, 4.89; he started 1988 by going 4-11, 5.52).

(This piece briefly went live before I had finished it - I forgot when I had set it to detonate. Silly me. But it attracted two quick comments, which then prompted me to get off my butt and actually look up what amateur numbers I could find. Which made this piece better. Lucky me!)
Verducci, the Blue Jays and The Health of Young Pitchers | 9 comments | Create New Account
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Pistol - Monday, June 15 2009 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#201358) #
I'm pretty sure these numbers don't include innings pitched in college, so a lot of the big increases aren't that big (or in some cases may be decreases).  For instance, Ricky Romero threw 125 innings in his final year in college, prior to throwing 32 innings later that year.
James W - Monday, June 15 2009 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#201359) #
I was going to point that out with Brett Cecil.  He threw 62.1 IP at Maryland in 2007, so some of those items aren't too out of whack.  Of course, Magpie did not bold any of those cases, it looks like.
AWeb - Thursday, June 18 2009 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#201503) #
I'm not sure what to make of any of this...there doesn't appear to be much to the 30 IP increase rule in terms of injuries, unless you are willing to extend it out for a year or two afterwards, and even then it's pretty thin gruel. It makes sense at some level, but I think the IP counts overlook too much.

Firstly, IP counts ignore all other throwing, such as warming up, practicing, and just playing around. Major league veterans might not spend much time outside of their training regimes throwing as hard as they can, but I'll guarantee you that an 17-18-19 year old who has discovered he can throw a ball 90mph spends a fair amount of time showing off that skill. That's likely how they built arm strength in the first place...you don't discover random 18 year olds who can throw hard, it's only those who spent time throwing hard (baseballs, rocks, dodgeballs, footballs, etc). Yes, eventually most hard throwers (ie, every major league pitcher, even the "slow" ones) eventually break down, but you only get to throw hard by throwing hard, and you only learn a curveball by throwing a curveball a lot, etc...

One thing that sticks out is a bit of a selection bias when looking at the IP numbers. Lots of pitchers see a sudden rise in innings when they a "breakout" year, because they are having a career year and naturally get to pitch more (more IP/start due to effectiveness and manager faith, not demoted or skipped in the rotation, promoted to longwer-season minor leagues). It's understandable that someone like Key maxed out his IP in his best year.

I think I might be coming back around to the tack the Nolan Ryan is pushing, which is basically "see which pitchers can take the workload". He might not see it that way, but that's how it sounds. At some point (24-26?) you have to let the pitchers pitch and see what you have. You can't let a starter go long periods between starts all year and players will not accept being told that they won't be pitching after July, even if they are pitching well and the team is in contention, because of an innings count. Fans wouldn't accept that either - you roll the dice and hope guys hold up.

In the end (and this is getting long-winded), major league teams are looking for two things from their starters: good pitching, and durability. The standards for good pitching might be different for various franchises at different points in time, but it's pretty standard progression. A pitcher gets a chance to start in the majors at some point. If they pitch well enough, they then get the chance to pitch more. Except for the youngest (and best prospects), if they can't hold up to the workload (either becoming injured or ineffective), teams more on to the next candidate. I just don't see this changing, and I worry that limiting IP too much for young pitchers lowers the chances of finding the rarest of gems - the effective, durable starter - before several years have been wasted.

John Northey - Thursday, June 18 2009 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#201510) #
A study that would be interesting is taking all pitchers since, say, the 50's and seeing how long pitchers who hit 200+ innings lasted based on year they first hit 200. 

Dwight Gooden is a guy who is viewed as being pushed really hard really fast and that it cost him.  Take out his 228 ERA+ in 1985 at age 20 though and you have a guy who has the following pattern...
137-126-119-102-113-98-101-95-117 then the strike and injuries took over at age 29.  At 33 he had one last good year (126 ERA+ over 23 starts in Cleveland).  During his peak from age 19 to 28 he was at 179+ IP all but one year (118) with 7 years over 200 IP out of 10.  Only the one time was he below 25 starts, with 30+ in 6 of those seasons.  If you view him as a HOF talent then that is a disappointment and he should've been controled better.  However, if you were the Mets you got 10 very solid years with one dud in '94 which works out quite well for them. 

For a team those first 6-7 years are what matter the most.  Those years you have control over the pitcher (no free agency until 6 seasons of roster time) and have him at a discounted rate.  In those first 6 years Gooden had a 132 ERA+, 110 in all but one year (102 that year).  His innings in year 6 were the lowest at 118 (17 starts) which would've reduced his cost as a free agent had they let him go that route.  The next 6 years his ERA+ was 100 but he was a 200 IP guy for the first 4 of those years before collapsing in year 5 and missing year 6.  Drugs (cocaine iirc) were also in the mix though and we don't know how that affected things.

So a workload that was horrid (276 IP at age 20) led to a guy who was super at 20 to being a 114 ERA+ guy over the next 4 years (better than Jack Morris, worse than Halladay by a fair margin).  So, was it the workload, the drugs, or something else?  Impossible to fully determine but the Mets did get good value over those key years. 

I've read studies that said calling up pitchers young doesn't hurt so much as get their career out of the way early.  That guys only have so many pitches in their arms and once it is hit (via minors or majors) that is it.  Conditioning, throwing lower stress pitches, etc. help but eventually you'll have used up all the fastballs your arm can take.  For a player it is better to spread it out, but for a team you want those first 6 years to be killer in every sense then to let the guy go elsewhere and make his millions while on the DL for your competition. 

FYI: AJ Burnett - ERA+ of 99 so far this year while leading the league in walks allowed (41) and wild pitches (8).  Think he might be closing in on that limit.

Magpie - Thursday, June 18 2009 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#201516) #
That guys only have so many pitches in their arms and once it is hit (via minors or majors) that is it.

And there's absolutely no way of knowing how many they have until they actually run out. Dwight Gooden turned pro at age 17 and pitched about 3100 innings as a pro. The Mets got the best he had to offer. Tom Seaver turned pro at age 21 and lasted for about 5000 innings. The Mets got the best he had to offer, too - there was just a whole lot more of it.

Because he was older when he started? Because he took better care of himself? Because he had better mechanics? Because it was meant to be?

Wish I knew.
Magpie - Thursday, June 18 2009 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#201517) #
I just had to do this! A tale of two pitchers!

  W   L   Pct.  ERA    G   GS  CG  SHO SV    IP     H      R    ER    HR    BB  IBB   SO    BF
311 205 .603  2.86  656  647  231  61  1  4782.2  3971  1674  1521  380  1390  116  3640  19369
335 179 .652  3.49  725  679  111  36  4  4711.1  4422  2017  1826  366  1386   64  3668  19579

The first guy, of course, is Tom Seaver. And the other guy?

Doc Gooden and Doc Halladay.
John Northey - Thursday, June 18 2009 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#201520) #
Wow, the two Doc's combined equals Tom Seaver.  The IP off by just 71, BB by 4, SO by 28, HR by 14.  All things considered that is amazing.  The ERA spread sure is interesting too - due to hits allowed more than anything else it seems as the HR advantage is for the Doc's as are K and BB.  Weird.  Did the Mets of the 70's have an amazing defense? 
Mick Doherty - Thursday, June 18 2009 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#201521) #

Did the Mets of the 70's have an amazing defense? 

Well, I'm not bothering to actually look anything up, but from memory, the guys I remember on those Mets were pretty substantially below average defensively. Buddy Harrelson and Jerry Grote/John Stearns were just fine (admittedly at arguably the two most important defensive positions) -- but Dave Kingman, Rusty Staub, John Milner, Felix Millan, Len Randle, Eddie Kranepool, Roy Staiger, Cleon Jones -- not exactly a pack of defensive greats!

Chuck - Thursday, June 18 2009 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#201523) #

Did the Mets of the 70's have an amazing defense? 

The decade, of course, did see less scoring than the decades since. So that provides a contextual backdrop to help offset the lead gloves that Mick cites.

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