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This Day in Baseball TDIB 03 September 2008
Less than a month to go. What can we look forward to in the next (30 - 2) days?

Well, what I'm most excited about, as I'm sure many Bauxites are, is following the progress of Travis Snider. Yeah, I don't think he's ready for the big leagues, and I don't want him to be on the opening day roster next year (unless he absolutely tears it up this month), but now that he's up I just want to watch him hit. It's Travis Snider! How can you not be excited?

In addition to keeping tabs on Snides' progress, I'm looking forward to the meaningless quest of trying to finish ahead of the Yanks in the standings. It's going to be tough - the Jays' September schedule only includes 1 sub-.500 team. Minnesota, Tampa Bay, Chicago, Boston, Baltimore, Boston again, New York, Baltimore again. But seriously, the Yanks rotation includes Darrell Rasner, Dan Giese, and Sir Sidney himself, so I have faith in the good guys. And wouldn't you just love to see Hank's reaction when the Yanks not only miss the playoffs for the first time since 1993, but finish fourth?

In other news, Vernon was nominated for the Clemente award, and Tom Cheek and Jerry Howarth are on the list of Frick nominees. Tom will most likely make it to the final 10 for the fifth year in a row. Is this his year?
Posted by Dave Rutt on Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 11:22 AM EDT.
TDIB 03 September 2008 | 43 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#191760) #
Ricciardi is whining again about playing in the AL East.

You'd think that with the success of the Rays this year that he wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but I guess not.

It's going to be so frustrating when he isn't replaced after the season.  His best argument's going to be "I took a good farm system, made it one of the worst, and now it's average - we're making progress!".  And of course, it's still going to be the 4th best (at best) system in the division.
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Jevant - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#191765) #
Is this what you are referring to: "I'll switch divisions if they want," Ricciardi said. "Everybody was talking about the Central being the strong division in baseball. Once again it's the American League East that's the strongest division."

Whining?  Maybe a little - but he's right.  I'd switch divisions too, if the Twins would like to.  I still think it's weird we're not in the same division as Detroit or Cleveland, but in the same one as Tampa Bay.

Also - if Ricciardi had said "we've been really unlucky this year", would he be whining?  Maybe, but he'd also be right.  Looking at the X W-L record on MLB.com regularly is just plain frustrating.
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John Northey - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#191766) #
Outside of playing with the new Google browser (http://www.google.com/crome) I'd say I'm watching...

1) Snider
2) Halladay & AJ going for 20 wins each
3) Litsch & Marcum getting 10 wins
4) See how many pitchers can have ERA+'s over 100 (up to 11 right now, AJ at 95, Parrish 91, Richmond 84, Purcey 69) - hey, I'm a numbers guy, what do you expect?
5) Inglett getting 8 more starts at second to move into the lead for the year for the Jays
6) McDonald getting 13 more starts at short to move into the lead over Eckstein
7) AJ and Roy getting to 200 K's
8) Marcum getting to the top 10 in ERA
9) see if Downs can get another 17 scoreless innings so he can have an ERA under 1.00
10) Thigpen getting to 10 AB's (needs 4 more)

OK, a lot of silly stuff there, but I love seeing guys reach milestones, even minor ones. Plus I doubt Thigpen will get more than a few innings the rest of the way unless Zaun has completely moved to bench status (just 8 games in August going 0 for 19 with 2 walks and 7 K's).
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Mike Green - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#191768) #
Here are the 2008 attendance averages. The Jays will probably draw 2.5 million. It's slightly below par performance, bearing in mind the state of the game, the size of the market and the quality of the club. 

In fairness to Ricciardi, the 2008 Jays are actually a pretty good club and probably the best of his tenure, but using the "AL East excuse", even if true, is a poor idea for a leader.  What he ought to say about the Twins is that they have done an excellent job of finding and developing talent; consistently competing in the AL Central on the Twins' limited budget is no small feat. 

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Ryan Day - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#191769) #
The Twins really just got lucky - they got great years from Morneau and Mauer, as opposed to the merely pretty good seasons each had in 2007. Give Wells and Rios career years, and I think the Jays would be in pretty similar shape.
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John Northey - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#191770) #
Maybe we should shift to the NL West. The Jays current record would be leading that division at the moment. Only the NL Central would be tougher this year, where the Jays current record would put them in 5th place which is funny given only 2 teams cracked 500 there last year and not by much (85 wins led it).

Still, most would agree life in the AL East is not easy. You have two teams who can, and do, spend 50% more than the Jays (and 50% more than most teams). At the moment you have a team which took advantage of having top 5 draft picks every year for a decade as well. Baltimore certainly has no shortage of cash should it choose to blow the wad too. That is hard to fight and all 4 of them would point out that the Jays have the resources to be up in the Red Sox budget range should they choose to. No other division has that much cash flowing, and right now we have what appears to be 3 very good GM's plus JP and whoever is running Baltimore this week.

If the radical realignment that Selig pushed for years ago happened (mixing the leagues by regional setup rather than the current historical setup) the Jays would've been in one of 4 divisions. They'd have been sharing the AL East with Baltimore/Boston/Montreal-Washington/Mets/Yankees/Phillies. The top two teams from each division would've been in the playoffs. I think that would've been even worse (Mets, Yankees, and Red Sox? Oy. No Tampa though). Other drastic changes created divisions with 4 teams each (plus 2 new expansion teams) or a strange 5 division structure where the Jays would be mixed in with the two Chicagos/Detroit/Milwaukee/St Louis.

Lots of ways it could go, and if you are just looking to shift the Jays to be able to play Detroit (ie: go to the AL Central) then Cleveland is the only team they could really trade off with. Nah. The Jays are trapped in the AL East and just have to live with it. The best thing to fight for in the inner offices is an expanded playoff - either the 2 wild card system (one game playoff to decide who gets to play against the 3 division leaders) or 8 teams per league into the playoffs.
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92-93 - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#191773) #
"The Twins really just got lucky - they got great years from Morneau and Mauer, as opposed to the merely pretty good seasons each had in 2007. Give Wells and Rios career years, and I think the Jays would be in pretty similar shape."

Except that Mauer and Morneau have proven to be significantly better hitters over their careers than Rios and Wells. If you want to talk about a luck factor with the Twins, you want to be pointing to their success with RISP. It's a little bit of a moot point to say things like - if our 3-4 was as good as Ortiz/Manny we'd be awesome.
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#191776) #
Except that Mauer and Morneau have proven to be significantly better hitters over their careers than Rios and Wells.

That's not really the point. The Big Guns Minnesota was depending on came through. The guys who could have kept Toronto in contention either struggled or got hurt.
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Glevin - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#191778) #
"Except that Mauer and Morneau have proven to be significantly better hitters over their careers than Rios and Wells.

That's not really the point. The Big Guns Minnesota was depending on came through. The guys who could have kept Toronto in contention either struggled or got hurt."

That was exactly the point. If you are counting on Wells and Rios to be your offensive cornerstones, you're toast. Wells average OPS+ over the previous 4 years was 105.75. Morneau's has been 118.75 and he was entering his 27 season rather than his 30. He's just a much better hitter and younger.  Mauer's career OPS+ is better than any year Rios has ever had.  I'm not saying the Twins haven't been lucky, but I am so tired of the whining about "If only this happened". etc...In order for the Jays to contend, they need everything to go right. Career years from almost everyone. It just doesn't happen. Things go wrong and the Jays are not good enough to deal with it. The problem in Toronto is not bad luck, it's lack of talent. Vernon Wells would be 6th on the Red Sox in OPS+ (If you count Bay and Manny as 1). He'd be tied for 5th on the Yankees in that catagory. He'd be tied for 4th on TB and Baltimore. The problem is not bad luck.
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#191779) #
In order for the Jays to contend, they need everything to go right. Career years from almost everyone. It just doesn't happen. Things go wrong and the Jays are not good enough to deal with it.

Would the Twins be good enough? Do you think they'd still be in first place if Morneau or Mauer had sustained a serious injury, or if they'd slumped? Is Morneau's 2007 season good enough to keep the Twins in the playoff hunt?

It's always about luck, and which teams get the career years and which teams get injuries and slumps.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#191781) #
Luck is an element in any particular season, but I would attribute the Twins' long-term success to good management, with the Rule 5 acquisition of Johan Santana and the Pierzynski trade being the highlights of the last 10 years. 
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China fan - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#191783) #
     On another subject, I find it intriguing that Ricciardi is again discussing the possibility of putting Scott Downs into the rotation as a starting pitcher next year.  (Source:  Jordan Bastian in mlb.com last night.)   A few years ago, when Downs was alternating between the bullpen and a spot-starter role in the rotation, his numbers showed that he was doing much better as a reliever than a starter.  Based on that evidence, the Jays decided -- probably rightly -- to keep Downs in the bullpen for the past few seasons.   But the old comparison of his bullpen numbers vs. his starter numbers might be outdated by now.  He has improved so much in the bullpen in the past couple of years that he might actually be a better all-round pitcher now -- and therefore another trial run in the rotation might be warranted again.
    Another factor is the growing depth of the Jays bullpen.  Brandon League seems to be back to full strength now, and he could serve as the set-up man to replace Downs.   By spring training, Accardo could be back.   The Jays could be completely fine with a bullpen of Ryan, League, Accardo, Carlson, Wolfe, Camp, Frasor, etc.     If they don't desperately need Downs in the bullpen, why not try him in the rotation?   Especially if Burnett departs, if McGowan and Janssen are slow to recover from their injuries, if Litsch and Purcey are inconsistent, etc.    
   The rotation in 2009 is still a little difficult to predict.   There is tons of incredible potential if everything goes well.  But there are enough question marks about several of the starters to justify a long look at Downs as a starter in spring training.

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Moe - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#191784) #
I'd rather them not try to use Downs as a starter. He is the best pitcher in that pen right now and while he might not repeat next year, he's still going to be above average. (If he can't get it done out off the pen, he is of no use as a starter). Imo, a great reliever combined with a mediocre starter (Downs and say Purcey) are more valuable than converting that reliever into an mediocre starter (slightly better than the starter he replaces) and having a significantly lesser arm in the pen.

Yes, there are a lot of arms in the pen and in the minors, but why not use them to trade for a DH? I'm sure there is a team in the NL that has a 1B/OF guy that can't really play the position any more and/or makes too much and that is in need of some bullpen help. -- I don't have a concrete suggestion right now, but I'm sure over the course of the offseason the target(s) will become apparent.
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Dr B - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#191785) #
Luck is an element in any particular season,

This is exactly right. It's quite easy to make an argument for a given season that luck has been a critical factor, but over a series of seasons the likelihood of luck being a factor goes down (a lot). This is because we expect bad and good luck to even out over time. So, it is much, much, more likely that the Twins long term sucess is due to something other than luck. It is much, much, more likely that the Blue Jays long term mediocrity is something other than luck. And so on.

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Magpie - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#191786) #
playing with the new Google browser

Me too! Looks pretty cool so far. But it looks like I have to remember all that HTML stuff I'd more or less forgotten.
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Greg - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#191787) #

But purely in terms of how players turned out the Twins weren't all "lucky" this season.

Both Mauer and Morneau are hitting at levels they have in the past, both of them being under 30 this isn't all that strange or fortutitous. 
Mike Lamb, Carlos Gomez, Michael Cuddyer and Delmon Young have all had terrible seasons (whether they should have or not is a legit question, but the Twins were expecting contributions from all 4 of those guys).

Aside from Nathan their bullpen, which had been a strength in recent years has not looked good at all.  Down years by Neshek and Guerrier (who could have reasonably expected to be solid)  Bonser being totally useless...Liriano not being ready as early as they expected.  Livan Hernandez being a total waste of space...

The list of things that went wrong for the Twins this year is very long.

I think the only reason they are where they are is that they have somehow managed to hit like freaks with runners in scoring position and their young pitching is better than expected.

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Dave Rutt - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#191788) #
playing with the new Google browser

I wish that's what I was doing. I need to get off this Macwagon. Not to get off topic, but did you guys check out the official Google announcement?
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Chuck - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#191789) #
La Russa has Josh Phelps playing LF tonight. I'm guessing it's not a pretty sight.
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Chuck - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#191790) #
Oh, and Troy Glaus is batting second.
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jgadfly - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#191791) #

What can we look forward to in the next (30 - 2) days?  ... I'm looking forward to an almost "gone but not forgotten"  last post for Russ Adams. There must be good news on the Aaron Hill front because why would Russ Adams not make the September call up list. Hill must be a 100% lock for 2nd in the spring... granted Inglett may have passed Adams on the value and fan favourite meters but if there are still any lingering doubts about Hill's future then Adams should be in consideration for at least back up LH bat/utility person ... after all Adams was drafted as a second baseman out of university... What did Adams do to incurr the wrath of the Blue Jay "powers that be" besides having a gawd awful June ?  He did learn to play the corner outfield positions fairly well and he did lead Syracuse in RBI and HR's and here is an old fave ...


                           G   AB      R   H  2B  3B  HR   RBI   TB    BB   SO  SB   CS       AVG    OBP     SLG    OPS  
PLAYER A ...   46  161   28  54  10   2      6      26     80    17   33     5      1       .335    .396     .534     .930

PLAYER B ...   51  189   24  62  17   2      6       50   101  19   36      1      1       .328    .394     .534     .929  

Guess who ?  Player A... Adams post all-star break numbers... Player B...Adam Lind pre call-up numbers ... "fairly similar" might  aptly describe them don't you think? So the Jays have an abundance of LH releivers and utility players. I still think that Adams has more value going down the road than either Mench or Wilkerson .  What say JP or you?

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Chuck - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#191792) #

after all Adams was drafted as a second baseman out of university...

Was he not a shortstop?

What did Adams do to incurr the wrath of the Blue Jay "powers that be" besides having a gawd awful June ? 

Hard to believe this is a serious question. Could it be his long track record of not being very good? Comparing him to Lind is dingenuous. Lind is 25. Adams is 28. Lind has hit at every level. Adams, not so much, a few good months during his 3rd straight year at AAA notwithstanding.

Even if Aaron Hill were to miss all of 2009, I still couldn't see a spot for Russ Adams on the big team. He may well morph into Joe Inglett for somebody, but I imagine it will have to be another organization. I've said before that his best bet is St. Louis. He and TLR would be a perfect match.

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Glevin - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#191793) #
"Would the Twins be good enough? Do you think they'd still be in first place if Morneau or Mauer had sustained a serious injury, or if they'd slumped?"

Probably not. But what if the Jays had Wells healthy and then traded Halladay for prospects and then lost Burnett for more than half the year? Would they be contenders then? Look, every team has to go through problems, injuries, dissapointments, etc...The Jays have not been all that unlucky compared to some teams. The Yankees for example have had serious injuries (more than 15 games) to Arod, Matsui, Posada, Damon, Wang, Joba, and Hughes. The Rays lost Pena, Longoria, Crawford, Baldelli, Bartlett, and Floyd to the DL this year and are still in first. Injuries happen, dissapointments happen. To say, "well if Wells were healthy and Rios were playing at his best, we would contend" is dishonest, because there is never a year where everything goes right. Maybe next year Wells will be healthy and Rios will play well and then Halladay wiill get hurt or Lind will regress or Snider won't develop or their bullpen will regress and then it will be the "if only" excuses again. If you can only win if everything goes according to plan, you're not very good.


"It's always about luck, and which teams get the career years and which teams get injuries and slumps."

Completely untrue. If it were all about luck, there would be randomized winners. The fact that some teams are always competitive and others never pretty clearly puts talent (both on the field and in the front office) as the major factor in winning. The only surprise in the playoff picture now is Tampa (If you believe STL is out of it).
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Kieran - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#191794) #
Kevin Mench is our fastest pinch runner WITH the expanded rosters? Hell, there's a reason Russ Adams or Buck Coats or Wayne Lydon could be called up.
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Chuck - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#191795) #
Kevin Mench is our fastest pinch runner

I think Gaston was holding McDonald back to maybe use his glove later in the game.
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Matthew E - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#191796) #
Travis Snider is a major-league baseball player. Even if he needs to go back to the minors next year, that's what he is.
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JohnL - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 10:35 PM EDT (#191797) #
Sorry... I guess this post isn't really about This Day in Baseball, and it certainly isn't looking forward.

When doing some serious basement cleaning a few days ago, I found, and tossed some very old newspapers. How old? There was a photo of the mayor of Mississauga... and it wasn't Hazel McCallion.

Today when I dumped them all in the recycling bin, the headline on one issue of the Toronto Star caught my eye: "Major leagues don't scare Jays' manager Hartsfield".  It was from April 2, 1977, just a few days before The Opening Day, at which, another headline advised, "'Impossible day' predicted for traffic at Jays' opener".

By that date, the Jays were down to 26 men, "one catcher has to go" (They had four on the roster). The most recent cut, rookie 2B Steve Staggs said "I'm flabbergasted. I think they made a mistake".

Meanwhile, director of player personnel, Pat Gillick astutely admitted that there are several areas where "we would like to improve, but it is not that easily done at this time." [Just wait 15 years, Pat]

And meanwhile, the un-scared manager did not take kindly to suggestions that he might be a bit "awed" by managing in the bigs. "There are 90 feet between  bases no matter where you are". he observed. And as final proof he was ready, he informed writer Neil MacCarl that "My first year as a manager [in the minors] I played in over 100 games out in the hot corn-growing weather in Iowa". 

Maybe that was his problem here, he just didn't adjust to that opening day snow. Another article wondered, "Will snow hit opener?"

And elsewhere in that section, an article about Joe Namath being placed on waivers by the NY Jets, a large ad from Penthouse magazine bemoaning the censorship that banned their May edition in Canada, and great deals on CB radios from Canadian Tire.

OK, back to the present...

Pat Gillick,

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brent - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#191798) #

Seeing Snider called up made me remember that JP never seems to call up young players. That's what my brain said, but what did mlbdotcom say? If I missed anyone please correct this!

2002 Season (a whopping 20 players made their debuts or basically that) with the players birth year which is close enough. With JP just taking over the team and having to dump salary, I think sifting through a lot of players was reasonable enough.

Eric Hinske '77

Justin Miller '77

Scott Cassidy '75

Orlando Hudson '77

Jason Werth '79

Tom Wilson (9 games w Oakland in 2001) '70

Pedro Swann (4 games w Atlanta 2000) '70

Ken Huckaby (1 game w Arizona 2001) '71

Kevin Cash '77

Joe Lawrence '77

Brian Bowles (2 games w Toronto 2001) '76

Josh Phelps (total 9 games w Toronto 2000 + 2001) '78

Pasqual Coco (total 8 games w Toronto 2001 +2001) '77

Mike Smith '77

Pete Walker (total 30 innings w Mets, Padres, Rockies 1995-2002) '69

Scott Wiggins '76

Dewayne Wise (22 AB w Toronto 2000) '78

Mark Hendrickson '74

Jason Kershner '76 (acquired in rookie season)

At the time, I thought they should have called up Hudson (age about 25) sooner rather than letting Lawrence spoil the season at 2B (but I guess it was about arb years).

Phelps (about 24) seemed like he was ready to be special. Werth was the youngest rookie, but he only played in 15 games.

 

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westcoast dude - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#191799) #

holding McDonald back to maybe use his glove later in the game.

Or in this case, his bat.

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brent - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#191800) #

In 2003, JP only had 4 players debut.

Reed Johnson ' 76

Howie Clark (14 games w Baltimore in 2002) ' 74

Aquilino Lopez ' 75

Vinnie Chulk ' 78 (and used for only 5 innings)

JP was definitely not rushing anyone to the majors yet.

 

 

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brent - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 11:22 PM EDT (#191801) #

In 2004, JP had his first draft class appear and 13 players made their debut.

Alex Rios '81

Gabe Gross ' 79

Russ Adams '80

Guillermo Quiroz '81

Simon Pond ' 76

Eric Crozier ' 78

Dave Bush ' 79

Jason Frasor ' 77

Kevin Frederick (11 Innings w Minnesota in 2002) ' 76

Michael Nakamura (12 innings w Minnesota in 2003) '76

Gustavo Chacin '80 (just 2 starts)

Brandon League '83 (only 4 innings)

Adam Peterson ' 79 ( only 2.2 innings)

League was called up quite early for JP being only about 21 (He still only has a total of about 120 innings pitched with the Jays!). Quiroz was just a September call up, and Rios held his own while being light on power being about 23. 

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brent - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#191803) #

I forgot to type in Rule V pick Corey Thurman under 2002 born in ' 78.

 

Moving on to 2005, only 5 players made a debut.

Aaron Hill '82

John-Ford Griffen ' 79

Andy Dominique (7 games w Boston in 2004) ' 75

Dustin McGowan '82

Shaun Marcum '81

JP brought up Hill and McGowan a little sooner than others.

 

2006 had 8 players come aboard.

Adam Lind '83

John Hattig '80

Ryan Roberts '80

Luis Figueroa (2 at bats w Pittsburgh in 2001!) ' 74

Casey Janssen '81

Ty Taubenheim '82

Francisco Rosario '80

Davis Romero '83

JP gave the youngest players only a short call up.

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brent - Wednesday, September 03 2008 @ 11:48 PM EDT (#191804) #

In 2007, 7 players made their debut.

Curtis Thigpen '83

Brian Wolfe '80

Jordan De Jong ' 79

Josh Banks '82

Jamie Vermilyea '82

Lee Gronkiewicz ' 78

Jesse Litsch '85

Litsch was the second youngest player JP brought up after so many injuries to the rotation. He had almost as many innings pitched that year as League has as a total. With this season, Litsch has already lapped League in innings pitched.

 

Finally, we come to this 2008 season where (so far) 6 players have made a debut.

Travis Snider '88

Robinson Diaz '83

Jesse Carlson '80

David Purcey '82

Scott Richmond ' 79

Randy Wells '82

Snider is now the youngest player JP has called up and has other position players beat by about 2 years.

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brent - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#191805) #

Youngest JP call ups

1. Snider 20 7months

2. League 21 6m

3. Litsch 22 2m

4. Quiroz 22 9m

5. Lind 23 1.5m

6. Hill 23 2m

7. Rios 23 3m

8. Werth 23 3m

9. McGowan 23 4m

10. Davis Romero 23 4.5m

11. Thurman 23 5m

12. Taubenheim 23 6m

13. Marcum 23 9m

14. Chacin 23 11m

15. Adams 24

16. Thigpen 24 1.5m

17. Josh Phelps 24 2m (with Ash 22 1m)

JP seems to be very slowly becoming less conservative about bringing players up earlier (or he has more of his kind of players coming up from the draft so he feels more confident in bringing them up).

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robertdudek - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#191806) #
I don't think age is a huge factor in these lists.

If JP thinks they're ready or wants to take a look at them, they'll be called up. A lot of these guys just come up for a cup of coffee, others come up to play key roles. And those are two entirely separate categories.

Also, if you are only drafting college players (as JP did for several years), you are never going to see a guy as young as Snider called up. It seems to me that he's just a special case. Nevertheless, he's going to spend most of 2009 in AAA.

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brent - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 01:32 AM EDT (#191807) #

I think the question is whether or not JP should be calling players up earlier or not. Has he been too conservative? Snider up for a cup of coffee is fine, but other players are almost 24 or 25. With the team not being able to compete in payroll with Boston or New York, they need to find ways to get a competitive advantage. Getting the clock started earlier on players will make them cost more sooner  to retain them, but the cost of having veteran players is too high at about 4 million dollars a win.

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scottt - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 07:39 AM EDT (#191814) #

"Like I said, we're going to take a good look at this kid, and if he continues to play like that then, hey, the look is done," Gaston said. "He had a great night tonight. He hung in there and he's very calm, he didn't sweat it at all up there. You can't tell if he's excited or afraid up there, and that's a good sign.

"You talk about it all the time, and guys I've played with coming up through the minor leagues, they certainly were better players than I was. The fact is they couldn't handle the pressure, and this kid -- he can handle the pressure up here."


Yep. It will be interesting to watch the rest of the month.

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jgadfly - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 08:35 AM EDT (#191818) #

Chuck,,, where do I start ? ... "after all Adams was drafted as a second baseman out of university..." "Was he not a shortstop?"                 

      According to his biography at MiLB Adams "attended University of North Carolina...First team All-ACC second baseman in 2001... Named top professional prospect of the Cape Cod League and the MVP of the Cape Cod League All-Star game in 2001." ... In 2002, his draft year, the Baseball Cube in their award listings show him as " [2002] - 1st team College All-American 2B"... Also if I recall correctly there was draft day discussion about whether his arm was strong enough to play shortstop when he was drafted given that he had mainly played 2ndbase in university.(The Jays I believe wanted Khalil Greene to address their SS needs but missed him when San Diego took him one position ahead of the BJ turn) 

       Never the less the quest to create the silk purse out of a solid secondbaseman was started with some initial success.   In 2002 was an all-star in the NYPENN League and promoted to High A Dunedin.    In 2003 was an all-star in the FSL and was promoted to Double A in 2004 hit .288 .351 .408 .759obs with Triple A Syracuse.   In his September call-up he hit .306 .359 .528 887obs in 22 games with 4 HR in 72 ABs      

       In Adams' rookie year (2005 age 24) in the majors he hit well and showed great range in fielding but his throwing created most of his 26 errors.    Again his MiLB biography states ... "In his first full season in the Major Leagues, batted .256 with eight home runs and 63 RBIs in 139 games...Ranked in the top five in AL rookies in RBIs (3rd, 63), multi-hit games (T-3rd, 30), runs scored (3rd, 68), hits (4th, 123), total bases (5th, 184), doubles (5th, 27), triples (T-3rd, 5), stolen bases (4th, 11), walks (2nd, 50) and extra base hits (4th, 40)...Also ranked among the top 10 AL rookies with eight home runs (T-7th), .325 on base percentage (6th) and a .383 slugging percentage (8th)..." His batting average tailed off in what was a disastrous September for him.

Batting Statistics

              Year Team      Lg  Age  Org.  Level  Pos  G    AB     R    H    2B  3B  HR  RBI  SB  CS  BB  SO     AVG   OBP   SLG 

              2005 Toronto AL   24    Tor    MLB   ss   139 481    68 123  27    5   8      63    11    2     50   57   .256   .325    .383

                  In spring training of 2006 Adams started working with John McDonald to speed up his catch and release action ... it didn't take and as Adams was appearing as a posterboy in the Jays TV ads he was making 10 errors in his first 30 games (9 by misplaced throws) in 150 chances.        So after hitting .306 in the merry month of May (15-49, HR, 10 RBI) he "was optioned to Syracuse of the International League (AAA) on May 24 to convert to second base ... Was recalled by Toronto from Syracuse on June 12...Was optioned to Syracuse a second time on July 29, and was re-called Aug 23." His fielding did improve (only 2 errors in his next 148 chances at 2nd) but his hitting tanked at the Major League level.         Batting Statistics from baseball cube...

Year  Team     Lg  Age Org. Level Pos   G   AB    R     H  2B 3B  HR  RBI   SB  CS  BB   SO      AVG    OBP    SLG  OPS                                                      

06 Syracuse IL   25    Tor   AAA   2b         42 161  21  50   9    3    0    15      3    2     17    23    .311     .374    .404    778                                   

      Toronto   AL  25     Tor  MLB 2b-ss     90 251 31  55  14   1    3     28     1    2     22    41    .219      .282    .319    601

     So apparently being treated like a yoyo didn't quite work in Adams' case. More time in the minors in 2007 was needed to hone how to play 2nd base and who would know that better than a career minor league 2nd baseman. After playing 102 games at 2nd and all of 5 games at 3rdbase for Syracuse Adams gets his September 2007 call up and plays all of 2 games at 2nd and 16 games at third. Not quite the way things had been explained. Why play a 2ndbaseman with an arm that isn't strong enough to play SS, at third? Ahh, there's always next year. Perhaps he should bulk up and learn to play the outfield and wait for the call ...after all Adam Lind is going to be at Syracuse all year.

      He's named International playerof the week for April 14-20/08 leading the Chiefs on a 6 game winning streak with a .417 avg, .533 ob%, .833 slg, 1.366 obs... so what happens ... (as per MLB transactions)...

      4/11/08 Optioned OF Buck Coats to Triple-A Syracuse; Recalled INF Joe Inglett from Syracuse.

      4/25/08 Activated 3B Scott Rolen from the 15-day disabled list; Optioned C Robinzon Diaz to Triple-A Syracuse.

      4/26/08 Recalled OF Adam Lind from Triple-A Syracuse; Optioned INF Joe Inglett to Triple-A Syracuse. 5/7/08 Optioned OF Adam Lind to    Triple-A Syracuse; Purchased the contract of INF Jorge Velandia.

     5/8/08 Placed SS David Eckstein, retroactive to May 7, with a strained right hip; Placed SS John McDonald on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to May 7, with a sprained right ankle; Recalled INF Joe Inglett from Triple-A Syracuse.

     5/9/08 Acquired OF Kevin Mench from the Texas Rangers for cash considerations; Signed OF Brad Wilkerson; Designated LHP Gustave Chacin and INF Sergio Santos for assignment; Optioned INF Joe Inglett to Triple-A Syracuse.

    5/10/08 Placed OF Vernon Wells, with a broken left wrist and RHP Jeremy Accardo with right forearm tightness on the 15-day disabled list; Recalled INF Joe Inglett from Triple-A Syracuse; Purchased the contract of RHP Armando Benitez from Triple-A Syracuse; Designated RHP Tracy Thorpe for assignment.

     5/16/08 Recalled LHP David Purcey from Triple-A Syracuse; Recalled INF Hector Luna from Triple-A Syracuse; Optioned LHP David Purcey to Triple-A; Designated INF Jorge Velandia for assignment.

     5/19/08 RHP Tracy Thorpe claimed off waivers by the Seattle Mariners; INF Jorge Velandia declined outright assignment to Triple-A Syracuse to become a free agent.

     5/28/08 Placed C Gregg Zaun on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to May 26, with a strained right elbow; Recalled C Curtis Thigpen from Triple-A Syracuse.

         The calls come but it's for everybody else and 1st place Syracuse's "best minor league team I've ever played on" is blown up. June comes and doesn't go anywhere ... 6 hits in 63 ABs for an ugly .095 Avg and July isn't much better... post all-star game is a different story which you can check out for yourself...

 Adams' career stats...

    G      AB      R      H      2B  3B   HR  RBI    TB   BB   SO   SB  CS  OBP    SLG    AVG                                                                                                                 

   278  864 123    214    46    7    17    113  325   84  117   15    5   .314     .376    .248

        Cito says, "why try to hit the ball the other way when you aren't any good at it" or to paraphrase 'Why try to make a shortstop out of a second baseman when he's not good at it' ... But Adams is good at many things. In 52 games at 2nd base for the Jays he's made 2 errors. He has some speed. He has good plate discipline (check his BB/K ratio)    He has developed some power.    He deserves a call up especially if your only alternative for a pinch runner is Kevin Mench.

        In regards to Player A & B, the comparison that I was attempting to make was the similarity in the numbers that led to Lind being called up mid-June, not about their individual skill levels, potentials, and future impacts or whatever... 

                          G   AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   RBI   TB   BB   SO   SB   CS   AVG   OBP     SLG   OPS

PLAYER A ...  46  161   28   54 10      2      6     26     80   17    33      5     1    .335    .396   .534   .930

PLAYER B ...  51 189    24    62 17     2      6      50   101  19    36      1      1   .328    .394    .534   .929

        Also, about the word 'disingenuous'. ...  It has an interesting meaning,  perhaps it could be better used to describe Russ Adams' treatment by the Blue Jays.

[ Reply to This ]
Chuck - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 08:52 AM EDT (#191819) #

Also, about the word 'disingenuous'

I know. I made a typo. Sue me. If you want this to be about parsing posts for spelling errors, it's incur not incurr, relievers not  releivers, nevertheless not Never the less...

Clearly you hold Russ Adams in higher esteem than most in these parts. I would suggest that you are not assessing him with dispassionate objectivity. That you disagree is entirely your prerogative.

[ Reply to This ]
ayjackson - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#191820) #

With the benefit of hindsight, it may have been better for the Jays to have just left Adams at SS in AAA all these years and hoped his throwing accuracy would improve to a bearable level.  A lefthanded hitting SS, that can sport a .740 OPS and play average to slightly below average defence has some value as a ML regular.  His bat seemed to plateau early in his career and isn't good enough to carry him as a regular at any other position.

The other side of the coin is that his throwing arm never would have improved enough to play short regularly in the majors and his best route was to become a utility player.

[ Reply to This ]
jgadfly - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#191830) #

   "Ahh Grasshopper... "     Thank you three times...    Thank you for reading my post and thank you for pointing out  my spelling errors... I have learned something from your post... Nevertheless it is a relief to incur an inference from your post... thank you  for recognizing that I don't assess Russ Adams with 'dispassionate objectivity'... therefore making your 'disingenuous' comment moot ...

 ps ... my lawyers will not be in touch...

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#191833) #
Idle party chat:

A: This is one helluva martini.  So, what are your areas of practice?
B: International trade law, Mergers and Acquisitions.  Yours?
A: Grammatical torts. Flights of fancy crashes.

[ Reply to This ]
scottt - Thursday, September 04 2008 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#191845) #
Man, does Snider look good!

How much sense does it make to go after a DH bat that will block him for a couple of years?





[ Reply to This ]
brent - Friday, September 05 2008 @ 06:27 AM EDT (#191851) #

Seeing Snider called up made me remember that JP never seems to call up young players. That's what my brain said, but what did mlbdotcom say? If I missed anyone please correct this!

2002 Season (a whopping 20 players made their debuts or basically that) with the players birth year which is close enough. With JP just taking over the team and having to dump salary, I think sifting through a lot of players was reasonable enough.

Eric Hinske '77

Justin Miller '77

Corey Thurman '78 (rule V pick)

Scott Cassidy '75

Orlando Hudson '77

Jason Werth '79

Tom Wilson (9 games w Oakland in 2001) '70

Pedro Swann (4 games w Atlanta 2000) '70

Ken Huckaby (1 game w Arizona 2001) '71

Kevin Cash '77

Joe Lawrence '77

Brian Bowles (2 games w Toronto 2001) '76

Josh Phelps (total 9 games w Toronto 2000 + 2001) '78

Pasqual Coco (total 8 games w Toronto 2001 +2001) '77

Mike Smith '77

Pete Walker (total 30 innings w Mets, Padres, Rockies 1995-2002) '69

Scott Wiggins '76

Dewayne Wise (22 AB w Toronto 2000) '78

Mark Hendrickson '74

Jason Kershner '76 (acquired in rookie season)

At the time, I thought they should have called up Hudson (age about 25) sooner rather than letting Lawrence spoil the season at 2B (but I guess it was about arb years).

Phelps (about 24) seemed like he was ready to be special. Werth was the youngest rookie, but he only played in 15 games.

 

In 2003, JP only had 4 players debut.

Reed Johnson ' 76

Howie Clark (14 games w Baltimore in 2002) ' 74

Aquilino Lopez ' 75

Vinnie Chulk ' 78 (and used for only 5 innings)

JP was definitely not rushing anyone to the majors yet.

 

In 2004, JP had his first draft class appear and 13 players made their debut.

Alex Rios '81

Gabe Gross ' 79

Russ Adams '80

Guillermo Quiroz '81

Simon Pond ' 76

Eric Crozier ' 78

Dave Bush ' 79

Jason Frasor ' 77

Kevin Frederick (11 Innings w Minnesota in 2002) ' 76

Michael Nakamura (12 innings w Minnesota in 2003) '76

Gustavo Chacin '80 (just 2 starts)

Brandon League '83 (only 4 innings)

Adam Peterson ' 79 ( only 2.2 innings)

League was called up quite early for JP being only about 21 (He still only has a total of about 120 innings pitched with the Jays!). Quiroz was just a September call up, and Rios held his own while being light on power being about 23. 

 

 

Moving on to 2005, only 5 players made a debut.

Aaron Hill '82

John-Ford Griffen ' 79

Andy Dominique (7 games w Boston in 2004) ' 75

Dustin McGowan '82

Shaun Marcum '81

JP brought up Hill and McGowan a little sooner than others.

 

2006 had 8 players come aboard.

Adam Lind '83

John Hattig '80

Ryan Roberts '80

Luis Figueroa (2 at bats w Pittsburgh in 2001!) ' 74

Casey Janssen '81

Ty Taubenheim '82

Francisco Rosario '80

Davis Romero '83

JP gave the youngest players only a short call up.

 

In 2007, 7 players made their debut.

Curtis Thigpen '83

Brian Wolfe '80

Jordan De Jong ' 79

Josh Banks '82

Jamie Vermilyea '82

Lee Gronkiewicz ' 78

Jesse Litsch '85

Litsch was the second youngest player JP brought up after so many injuries to the rotation. He had almost as many innings pitched that year as League has as a total. With this season, Litsch has already lapped League in innings pitched.

 

Finally, we come to this 2008 season where (so far) 6 players have made a debut.

Travis Snider '88

Robinson Diaz '83

Jesse Carlson '80

David Purcey '82

Scott Richmond ' 79

Randy Wells '82

Snider is now the youngest player JP has called up and has other position players beat by about 2 years.

 

Youngest JP call ups

1. Snider 20 7months

2. League 21 6m

3. Litsch 22 2m

4. Quiroz 22 9m

5. Lind 23 1.5m

6. Hill 23 2m

7. Rios 23 3m

8. Werth 23 3m

9. McGowan 23 4m

10. Davis Romero 23 4.5m

11. Thurman 23 5m

12. Taubenheim 23 6m

13. Marcum 23 9m

14. Chacin 23 11m

15. Adams 24

16. Thigpen 24 1.5m

17. Josh Phelps 24 2m (with Ash 22 1m)

JP seems to be very slowly becoming less conservative about bringing players up earlier (or he has more of his kind of players coming up from the draft so he feels more confident in bringing them up).

[ Reply to This ]
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