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I came home from Monday's game thinking I should have another son, just so I can name him after Roy Halladay. It was quickly clear to me that that wasn't gonna happen. So I turned my attention to the Internets, that mighty system of tubes, looking for diversion or entertainment or enlightenment.

And fortune smiled upon me. Over at the Southpaw, WillRain has assembled some interesting numbers, given them an intense scrute, and made some very pertinent observations. Let me urge everyone to check it out.

In retrospect it seems so simple, so obvious. Will simply lined up, year by year, the Blue Jays payroll alongside that of the Yankees. We already know that the Jays don't or won't or can't spend as much as Steinbrenner and his evil  minions. But it's still somewhat shocking to see the gap grow over the years.

I don't want to just include a link and say go check this out - nor would it be right if I simply retype what he typed. The least I can do is present you with one of my pretty pictures. Here is how the Blue Jays payroll compares with that of the Yankees, since 1992. The Yankees payroll is the solid light blue line - the other line shows you how the Blue Jays payroll relates to the New York baseline:



There's knowing something, and then there's knowing something. I knew that during the championship years the Jays were spending as much money as the Yankees, sometimes more. I knew those days were long gone. But it's still something altogether different to actually look at those numbers in a row: from 108% in 1992 all the way down to just under 22% in 2005.

Which raises this question. I don't know whether J.P. Ricciardi actually said in November 2001 that he could compete with the Yankees on $50 million a year or whether that's just some Urban Legend. But even if he did say it, so what?  In 2001, the Yankees payroll was $112 million. They had just become the first team to crack the $100 million dollar ceiling. That was where Ricciardi's target stood. But less than four years later, the Yankees had almost doubled that previously unprecedented figure.

This has always seemed obvious to me, but it still seems to require being pointed out. We'll never know if Ricciardi could have competed with them at $50 million per year, but clearly any plans he may or may not have had to do so were no longer worth the paper they may or may not have been scribbled down upon. Because the Yankees didn't stand still. They continued, and still continue, to push the limits of how much money you could actually spend on baseball players. (Not anticipating that may have actually been Ricciardi's biggest error. It seems not to have occurred to him that he was chasing a moving target.)

Anyway, I thought all of this was very striking, and so also was something else Will put together. A 1992 dollar is the same as a 2007 dollar in name only. What happens if you convert all currency figures to a constant? You get a very different view of the Blue Jays payroll over the years. Will has some very interesting things to say about this - first he shows that in constant dollars that Blue Jays payroll has been fairly steady over the years - there's a blip in 2001 and 2002, when Ash frantically threw a lot of money around and Ricciardi was called in to cut it back.



But Will makes the interesting and absolutely crucial point that inflation runs at a much higher pace in the world of baseball than it does in the rest of the world. The Blue Jays spent $43.7 million in 1992. In dollar terms, that would be like spending $65.7 million in 2007. Well hang on - the Blue Jays actually spent $81.9 million in 2007, and they're spending about $97.8 million this year (which is about $93.1 million in 2007 dollars, just for the sake of using the same base-line.)

So what's the problem?

Baseball inflation. A million dollars doesn't buy what it used to anywhere, but in the world of baseball it buys far, far less than it used to. Will cites the average 1992 salary as $1.08 million. This year, it's $2.74 million. The 2007 dollar may be 138% of the 1992 dollar, but the cost of major league talent in 2008 is 256% of what it was in 1992.

Context is everything.

It takes a much braver man than I to actually come out and defend J.P. Ricciardi these days, especially in this Summer of Our Discontent. But context is everything. Speaking of which, the actual context for Will's piece seems to be a comparison of the resources Ash and Ricciardi had to work with. Will, who seems to be responding to feedback on an earlier piece I've either been unable to either find or just identify, contents himself with this:

If JP has done an average job, and produced an average team, he's done so with average money.

And finally - something for me to do! After all - most of this piece amounts to little more than summarizing the excellent work Will has done, and exhorting you to go over and see it for yourselves. And once more, I exhort you! But here's my thought - if Ricciardi's done an average job with average money, might there be someone out there who's done better than that? So let's not look at just the Yankees and Blue Jays - let's check out the entire American League. (Hey Will - you think you've got too much time on your hands? It is I, the Magpie, the one with No Life Whatsoever!)

Because I know what you're thinking - yes, there is someone who's done better than that and Ricciardi used to work for him.

Let me also provide a quick note on the Method, such as it is, behind these pretty pictures. The yellow line is the average American League payroll on all three charts. I know it says MLB average on two of them, but it's not - its AL verage for all three. I was thinking that it's not tremendously relevant to the Blue Jays how much the Mets or Dodgers are spending - they don't compete with them for much of anything. (Although they do compete with the NL teams for talent in the off-season, so it's not completely irrelevant. Whatever - these are all AL averages anyway! Derived at by adding up the 14 AL payrolls and dividing by 14, although I didn't bother actually showing a line for the Milwaukee Brewers from 1992-97.)

Anyway, here is the AL East through the years:



Well. Or maybe Gulp. That really, really speaks for itself. I don't know what I could possibly add, except to note that you can actually see Steinbrenner's growing desperation since the shocking conclusion of the 2001 World Series to win just one more time. As you can see, both the Orioles and the Red Sox did their best to keep pace with the Yankees through 2000 - at which point, Angelos started cutting back in Baltimore. Meanwhile the Yankees and Red Sox have just kept raising the ante to the point where no one else can even afford to get into the game.


Here is the AL Central



Since it opened for business in 1994, things in the Central have been fairly fluid. Everyone - even the Royals - have had the highest payroll at one time or another. The Royals cut that out of their act soon enough, and have generally just showed up to provide an opposing team. The Tigers have never won the division either, but they're the ones spending the most money these days. They've made a recent World Series appearance and everything. But during most of this time, Cleveland, Chicago, and Minnesota have been the on-field powers - Cleveland has won the division seven times and made a couple of World Series appearances. The Twins have won the division four times, the White Sox three times (but the White Sox did go to, and win, a World Series along the way.) The payrolls have been fairly stable, at least compared to the AL East. As the Data Table at the bottom indicates, a number of the AL Central teams seem to have attempted to spend about the same amount of money year after year. This is never going to keep work - both real world inflation and baseball inflation are working to make sure that you get less and less bang for your buck the farther along you go with such a strategy. Meanwhile, the Indians were finding it necessary to try to hold on to all that glittering young talent - Albert Belle, Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez - that had launched them first into contention, and eventually into complete and utter domination of this group. The White Sox kept pace for a while, and then seem to have paused, and put their faith in a Collective Bargaining Agreement that Jerry Reinsdorf might find more to his tastes. When that didn't quite work out, and with the Indians slipping, they opened up their wallets again.

Even the Twins have thrown a few dollars around. They had the lowest payroll in the division in 2002, when they came away with a somewhat unexpected division title - the Indians simply collapsed, and the Twins filled the void. Their top three starters that year were Rick Reed, Kyle Lohse, and Joe Mays -  which is why I don't think they were planning any parades that April. Victory took them quite by surprise, I think. Everyone remembers that they promptly cut David Ortiz loose that off-season, but it's not that they were completely unwilling to spend money. The Twins had the highest payroll in the AL Central in 2003, and won it again, and they still had the second-highest payroll when they made it a three-peat in 2004.

Now here is the AL West



The A's once had some money - they had the highest payroll in the division when they won the West in 1992, and through 1995 all four teams wre operating with similar budgets. But the A's finished dead last in 1995, and started to cut costs drastically the following year. Meanwhile the Rangers (Ivan Rodriguez, Juan Gonzalez) and the Mariners (Ken Griffey, Randy Johnson) had the brilliant young talent getting hefty automatic raises through arbitration if nothing else. By 1997, the Rangers were spending twice as much money as Oakland - and they were beating them every year.

But in 2000, the Rangers suddenly collapsed, tuumbling to last place - Oakland filled the vacuum, and won the first division title of the Beane Era. It was a victory created by very young, and very cheap talent - Tim Hudson, Eric Chavez and Miguel Tejada weren't even arbitration eligible at this point. Mark Mulder and Barry Zito were rookies who arrived in mid-season. Texas responded by throwing almost all the money there was in the world at a shortstop (Alex Rodriguez) and a year later they threw whatever was left at a pitcher (Chan Ho Park.) Once they'd done that, they didn't feel they could also afford Rafael Palmeiro and Ivan Rodriguez, or anything resembling a competent pitcher at all. They cut bait on Rodriguez after three years and have been nursing their wounds ever since.

For most of this time, the Angels were along for the ride. They weren't spending like the division's true powers, the Mariners and Rangers - and they never won anything, either. Not until 2003, when they suddenly won 99 games and a World Series, more or less out of the blue. (They hadn't won more than 85 games since 1989.) And like the Twins, their success moved them - and forced them - to open the tap. As soon as the following season, they were the biggest spenders in the division and have remained so ever since, although the Mariners have tracked them very closely all along. Texas is still figuring out what to do next, and Oakland has a different approach, that people have written books about.

But here's my point, more or less. Billy Beane has indeed done a remarkable job doing More with Less in Oakland. But look at the other teams in his division. Oakland has usually had the lowest payroll in the division over the last ten years, but for the most part, they haven't been blown right out of the water the way teams in the AL East are. The team that was outspending them in the most grotesque fashion - Texas -  was first beating them up year after year, and then drastically misallocating all of those financial resources. It helps to be smart, but it also helps when the other guys are dumb.

Well, I think I should conclude this by appending one of my Famous Data Tables. Here, in millions of dollars, are what the AL teams have been spending these past few years:

Year  AVG     NYY    Bos   Blt   Tor    TB    Mil    Det   Cle    Chi    KC    Min    LAA    Oak    Tex    Sea
1992 30.4 36.0 42.2 21.0 43.7 -- 30.3 28.8 8.2 28.4 33.6 27.4 33.5 40.0 29.7 22.5
1993 32.7 41.3 37.1 26.9 45.7 -- 22.9 36.5 15.7 34.6 40.1 27.3 27.2 35.6 35.6 31.6
1994 33.8 44.8 36.3 37.7 41.9 -- 23.4 40.0 28.5 38.4 40.5 27.6 20.7 33.2 32.4 27.9
1995 34.0 46.7 28.7 40.8 49.8 -- 16.2 35.9 35.2 39.6 27.6 24.5 29.0 36.0 32.4 34.2
1996 32.9 52.2 39.7 48.7 28.5 -- 20.5 21.9 45.3 41.9 18.5 22.0 26.9 19.4 35.9 39.2
1997 39.1 59.1 43.2 54.9 45.9 -- 21.0 16.3 54.1 54.4 31.2 25.7 29.5 21.9 50.1 39.7
1998 43.0 63.2 51.6 70.4 48.4 25.3 -- 22.6 59.0 36.8 32.9 26.2 38.5 20.1 54.7 52.0
1999 48.8 88.1 71.7 70.8 48.2 37.8 -- 35.0 73.9 24.6 16.5 16.4 49.9 24.2 81.3 44.4
2000 56.4 92.2 81.2 83.1 46.4 64.4 -- 61.7 76.5 31.2 23.1 15.7 51.3 32.1 70.8 59.2
2001 67.3 112.3 109.7 74.3 76.9 57.0 -- 49.4 92.7 65.6 35.4 24.1 47.7 33.8 88.6 74.7
2002 69.4 125.9 108.4 60.5 76.9 34.4 -- 55.0 78.9 57.1 47.3 40.2 61.7 40.0 105.7 80.3
2003 68.7 152.7 99.9 73.9 51.3 19.6 -- 49.2 48.6 51.0 40.5 55.5 79.0 50.3 103.5 87.0
2004 70.5 184.2 127.3 51.6 50.0 29.6 -- 46.8 34.3 65.2 47.6 53.6 100.5 59.4 55.1 81.5
2005 75.5 208.3 123.5 73.9 45.7 29.7 -- 69.1 41.5 75.2 36.9 56.2 97.7 55.4 55.8 87.8
2006 83.5 194.7 120.1 72.6 71.9 35.4 -- 82.6 56.0 102.8 47.3 63.4 103.5 62.2 68.2 88.0
2007 92.8 189.6 143.0 93.6 81.9 24.1 -- 95.2 61.7 108.7 67.1 71.4 109.3 79.4 68.3 106.5
2008 96.9 209.1 133.4 67.2 97.8 43.8 -- 137.7 79.0 121.2 58.2 56.9 119.2 48.0 67.7 117.7

As you surely recall, in 1992 and 1993, Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Detroit were in the AL East; Kansas City, Chicago, and Minnesota were in the AL West.

It's a little daunting how money just seems to follow winning around. Some teams spend it without getting a lot of reward, it's true. But very few teams prosper without it. Even the Twins - they won the AL Central with the lowest payroll in the division in 2002 - but when they repeated in 2003, they had the highest payroll in the division. They still had the second highest payroll in the Central when they repeated again in 2004.


Money Doesn't Talk, It Swears | 77 comments | Create New Account
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TamRa - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 03:55 AM EDT (#190134) #
Impressive, sir, and Kudos on winning the "Most Life-less" title ;)

I've said since the new wore off that JP was doing, in most regards, a middling job....I've never been anxious to fire him because the vast majority of GM's do a middling job and Billy Beanes don't just fall out of trees. My point is not so much to defend him as it is to counter some of the shakier accusations made as a reason to fire him. the previous post that I refered to was one in which I compared what we knew about the Jays farm system and draft record on the day Ash was fired as compared to what we will know on that October day when JP is likely fired.
The point being that Gordo's draft record looks much better today than it did while rios was hitting singles in Lo-A ball and so forth.

And yet, so very passionately is the anti-JP mythology held in some quarters that I actually saw an extended discussion on one BBS about how wrong I was and every single one of the critics spoke in hindsight, totally ignoring the very foundational premise of the article.

Anyway, I've also said on the blog that I figure JP pretty much has to go because he's lost the confidance of too much of the fan base, and I am much more at peace with that idea now because it seems a universal opinion that Tony Lacava will make a kick-ass GM (assuming the Jays are smart enough to promote him).

but I have to admit that there is a tiny little bastard inside of me that wants JP to stay on until the critics get the reasons he needs to go right, just out of spite.

 Anyway, thanks for the kudos and know you have mine in return.


Frank Markotich - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 08:30 AM EDT (#190142) #

To follow up on Will's point, here is the Blue Jays' payroll rank and rank in wins in the AL in the Ricciardi regime:

2002 - Payroll (6) Wins (8)

2003 - Payroll (8) Wins (tie 6)

2004 - Payroll (10) Wins (12)

2005 - Payroll (11) Wins (8)

2006 - Payroll (8) Wins (7)

2007 - Payroll (8) Wins (7)

2008 so far - Payroll (7) Wins (8)

On the fairly dubious assumption that I haven't made a mistake somewhere, that averages out to Payroll (8.3) and Wins (8.1)

Yep, looks like an average performance to me.

 

 

Chuck - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#190143) #
I figure JP pretty much has to go because he's lost the confidance of too much of the fan base

Won't Ted Rogers wait to see tangible evidence of this, such as a drop in attendance? If people are still going to games and watching on TV, what does it matter that they grumble on radio talk shows?
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#190146) #
Well, we're about to see how it could have been done.  Ricciardi's situation is really quite similar to what  Andrew Friedman arrived to in Tampa.  Chuck Lamar, like Gord Ash, had some good drafts (with the assistance of Tim Wilken) but made some truly boneheaded moves and wasn't able to develop pitchers.  It didn't help that he never ensured that there was a solid defence down the middle of the diamond.  Yes, Tampa has had a run of early first round picks due to last place finishes, but most of the assembled talent has come from non-first round drafts (Crawford, Shields, Sonnanstine, Riggans) or excellent low-cost acquisitions or trades (Pena, Iwamura, Kazmir, Hinske, Navarro, Gross, Howell).  The only question is whether fans on the Gulf Coast will support a winner; I'll bet that they do.

Dave Till - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#190150) #
Through most of the history of the American League, the norm is that the Yankees won everything.

Just looked at the standings - there's only twenty runs difference between the Rays and the Jays. The Rays are good, but they've been a bit lucky.

jeff mcl - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#190151) #
Here's Will's first piece on comparative drafting at year 7, Ash v. Ricciardi.
Mylegacy - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#190153) #

Magpie - in keeping with your nom de guerre, what a wonderful collection of shiny bits you've gathered for your nest.

Excellent work! Bravo!

Dewey - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#190154) #
Nicely done, Magpie; and fascinating.

We are very fortunate at Da Box to have Mr. Pie among us.  I venture to say you will not find another writer on virtually any other baseball site (or many others, for that matter) who correctly writes “Which raises this question.” (to begin paragraph 6), instead of the incorrect “begs the question”  (which does not mean raises or prompts the question).   And then.  And then--as a bonus--tosses in a quietly playful  allusion to Shakespeare's “Richard III” (the Summer of Our Discontent).   I tell you, we are fortunate readers here at Da Box.
FisherCat - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#190155) #

A little off topic, but I've seen people ask questions re: draft compensation if arbitration isn't offered to outgoing FA's.

Well, Ken Rosenthal (FoxSports.com) answered it in his latest article...

"...A team can now gain a sandwich pick between the first and second rounds for such a player (Type-B FA's) without even offering him arbitration. 

Type A free agents must be offered arbitration to ensure draft-pick compensation..."

I know this cleared up the confusion for me, hopefully it did for others.

Dan Daoust - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#190156) #

This site needs a print button.

Anyhoo, I think the AL Central discussion needs a little correction:

Even the Twins have thrown a few dollars around. They had the lowest payroll in the division in 2002, when they came away with a somewhat unexpected division title [...] The Twins had the highest payroll in the AL Central in 2002, and won it again, and they still had the second-highest payroll when they made it a three-peat in 2004.

I don't recall there every being a time where the Twins had the highest payroll in anything outside of Minnesota.  The graph seems to bear that out.

My value add.

Magpie - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#190158) #
Oops, a typo. The Twins had the highest payroll in the AL Central in 2003:

Minnesota: $55.5 million
Chicago: $51.0 million
Detroit: $49.2 million
Cleveland: $48.6 million
Kansas City: $40.5 million

There were three teams in the AL East (NY, Bos, Bal) and three teams in the AL West (Tex, Sea, LAA) spending more than the Twins. But the Twins didn't have to beat out any of them to finish first. Which they did.



TamRa - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#190160) #

Won't Ted Rogers wait to see tangible evidence of this, such as a drop in attendance? If people are still going to games and watching on TV, what does it matter that they grumble on radio talk shows?



Good point. If it's a strictly business decision, JP is doing pretty much what the business plan demands in many regards.

Moe - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#190161) #
Good point. If it's a strictly business decision, JP is doing pretty much what the business plan demands in many regards.

But as a businessman Rogers knows that it's hard to bring back customers once you loose them. Even if attendance and ratings aren't low yet, fans have little optimism for next year. That may cause season ticket sales to be sluggish over the winter and if then next year is another battle for 3rd, we are back to 2002-04 (low attendance, discount tickets...) as far as interest in the jays goes.

Now: Fire JP, bring in a new GM. Whoever that may be can sell re-signing AJ (after a good season) and talking about some interesting prospects coming up as steps in the right direction. The same won't work for JP any more, we have heard it to often from him. Sometimes you just have to change the sales person even if the message is the same.
TamRa - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#190162) #
Yes, Tampa has had a run of early first round picks due to last place finishes,

Longoria, Upton, Graza (via trade) and, generously, Baldellie are the results of some 7 straight years of picking in the top 6. They didn't even always get that right.


but most of the assembled talent has come from non-first round drafts (Crawford, Shields, Sonnanstine, Riggans)


Three players (Craford Sheilds and Sonanstiene...I'm not worried about the backup catcher)) contrast to Hill, Marcum, Janssen, Lind, and Listch, all but one taken outside the first round.

or excellent low-cost acquisitions or trades (Pena, Iwamura, Kazmir, Hinske, Navarro, Gross, Howell).

Pena - dumb luck
Iwamura - good signing but ordinary guy
Kazmir - once in a lifetime gift
Hinske- again, dumb luck
Navarro  - good move
Gross - dumb luck and marginal guy
Howell - no more impressive than acquiring Brian Tallett.

In fact, Downs may be one of the most important relievers in the game, and he's done it for more than one year, isn't that more impressive that Hinske having a fluke year? Zaun has done good work for us for five years, and he was a scrap heap pickup like Gross, getting a good closer for Hillenbrand isn't at least similar to getting Navarro Mark Hendrickson?

Except for being the lucky recipient of Kazmir, there's not anything more than a marginal difference in the moves you cite as "doing it the right way" and the moves JP has made.

And wasn't Kazmir dealt to the Rays BEFORE Freidman got the job?


Mike Green - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#190163) #
Attendance has gone up, but not in relative terms. The Toronto Fan Cost Index is rising relative to other teams, despite the increasing value of the Canadian dollar.  This club is certainly less interesting than the 2000 Jays who drew many fewer, and who were well below average in FCI, so I suppose things could be worse from ownership's perspective.

If the Rogers' people are content with being #20 out of 30 in attendance, charging above average prices and having an average major league payroll and record, then I suppose that they'll stick with JP until the next economic downturn when being #20 means losing money...
Mike Green - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#190165) #
Balfour was also a low cost acquisition (traded for Seth McLung, who had been a late round pick). 

The Blue Jays and Rays both had a weakness at shortstop a few years ago.  The Jays had more cash; the Rays had more minor league talent courtesy of their poor finishes.  The Rays addressed their problem well when they were ready to make a run, converting Delmon Young into Garza and Bartlett, and then coming up with a good low cost replacement solution in right-field with Hinske/Gross.  The Jays did not. 

Just to be clear.  Ricciardi has been an average GM.  There are clear signs that the current management in Tampa is better than that (how many successful acquisitions can one attribute to "dumb luck"?). To sustain their run, they will need fans to fill seats and for the payroll to be bumped up. 

Moe - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#190168) #
Actually, this year attendance is down so far. I know there are two more NYY and BOS series which could help to bring attendance back up. However, I'm sure Rogers' people are more concerned with next year -- most of the best (expensive) seats are sold before the season starts and I could easily see a drop there.

And of course they are most concerned with the average revenue per seat and that's why total revenue can go up even if attendance goes stays flat or even decreases.  However, it's not the extra dollar they charge for a beer that matters (as in the FCI), but whether you have to sell tickets at a discount (I remember the MasterCard pack for example) which I believe it's not in the FCI. I doubt that the performance of the team affects how much people spend at the game once they are there. That depends more on the overall economic conditions.

I think this is why JP will go. It helps them to sell mediocrity for a few more years. And realistically, that's where the Jays are stuck for at least 3 more seasons. In fact, if Rogers is reluctant to rebuild, they may just stay there forever.


Geoff - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#190172) #
Two things I found slightly surprising from the data:
  1. The Red Sox are the only team among the Jays, Yanks, O's and Sox not to have the highest payroll in the AL East since 1992; and that the closest they came was in 1992 when they were just 1.5 million back of the Jays.
  2. Tampa has had a higher payroll than the Jays one year - 2000 -- when they were determined to free-agent their way to respectability and wait the impending arrival of savior Josh to happen. (meanwhile the Jays were meekly hoping to get a new budget for salaries)
Excellent history review. Certainly the most monumental story of David and Goliath salary wars is waiting in the wings if the Rays pull off a division win. Unless of course the Marlins win at the same time, which would be a double whammy.

Any chance you are tempted to repeat this analysis for the NL?

Radster - Wednesday, August 06 2008 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#190174) #
Another correction regarding the Angels in the west - they won in 2002, so they didn't lead the division in spending until two years after their success. Even in 2003, though, their payroll was in the process of increasing to current levels.
S P - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 12:05 AM EDT (#190184) #
Just to be clear.  Ricciardi has been an average GM.

This is simply lazy. I'm tired of having to trot out JP's personnel record every time someone says this, but take a look at it and see that he has made very few big mistakes, no bad trades ever, and some fine signings and trades. His only "fault" is that the teams he built that were good enough on paper never actually came through (2003 and 2006-2008). If you wanna be unfair and pin that on him alone, go ahead but don't be lazy and call him "just an average GM". If anything he has been extremely unlucky--AL east, unstable payroll, injuries, players unexpectedly sucking--and still managed to field good teams.

I'm really interested to know what people think La Cava will do that JP can't or hasn't. I'm sure he'll be a fine GM but we know nothing about him except that he has a good reputation. I think people just dislike JP for whatever reason and those reasons have very little to do with baseball. I'd rather judge him solely on things he CAN control, and based on that, he has been an ABOVE average GM.
Magpie - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#190185) #
Any chance you are tempted to repeat this analysis for the NL?

That's a very good idea - for the excellent reason that I don't have a clue what I'll find out. Best reason to do anything. Well, almost anything.

I have a lot of sympathy with the idea that Ricciardi has been unlucky. Or he's never gotten really lucky. On the other hand, it was one of the great original GMs who famously said that "Luck is the residue of design."
Anders - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 12:54 AM EDT (#190186) #
This is simply lazy. I'm tired of having to trot out JP's personnel record every time someone says this, but take a look at it and see that he has made very few big mistakes, no bad trades ever, and some fine signings and trades. His only "fault" is that the teams he built that were good enough on paper never actually came through (2003 and 2006-2008). If you wanna be unfair and pin that on him alone, go ahead but don't be lazy and call him "just an average GM". If anything he has been extremely unlucky--AL east, unstable payroll, injuries, players unexpectedly sucking--and still managed to field good teams.

Well gee, I don't know about that. Since the start of J.P.'s tenure the Jays are 539-546. I don't know that that means anything, but we're on manager number 4, and only have two players remain from that 2002 team (well, three if you count Shannon Stewart). At some point somebody has to be responsible, and that's a reasonably large sample size.

As far as trades go, I'd take a do-over on this one, or this one. This one is at least debatable. As far as Ricciardi's luck, I would wager its been no worse or better than that of his competitors. At the beginning of the year a reasonable man might have put the Jays at 86 or 87 wins. The Jays have underperformed their pythagorean record, yes. If they were performing at the rate their runs for and against would suggest they'd be on pace to win 88 games. I don't think that will be good enough to make the playoffs, and I doubt it will be good enough to make them next year. I don't think Ricciardi is a particularly poor GM by any stretch, but many of the Jays competitors have shown themselves to be particularly adept, whether they have more money than the Jays or not.
Alex Obal - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#190187) #
This thought came to me in a dream on the subway. I'm not sure if it really applies to anything in this thread, or if I even buy it, but here goes.

The most risk-averse GM in the majors, whoever that may be, is going to have the lowest probability of significantly 'getting lucky.'
TamRa - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 01:20 AM EDT (#190188) #
The Rays addressed their problem well when they were ready to make a run, converting Delmon Young into Garza and Bartlett,

Bartlett? The guy with essentially the same OPS plus as John McDonald has in an average year? Kudos on getting Garza for sure but BARTLETT?

(how many successful acquisitions can one attribute to "dumb luck")?

Ever how many there are.

JP: Downs, Zaun, maybe Tallet, Carlson, Camp, Wolfe, Stairs (to the extent he was THAT good last year), Walker, Towers (v.2005), Myers, Kershner.....all have well out-preformed what might have been a reasonable expectation when they were acquired.

TB:
Pena? (not even sure why we are talking about him as he's right back to what he was before the fluke last year) - look at his 2006 season and tell me why you give a GM any more credit for taking a flyer on him than you would to the team that annually takes a chance on Russ Branyan?
Hinske? A good signing to be sure but the exact same kind of marginal signing that pays off that every GM has a few of...again, has Hinske done more for TB than Downs has done for Toronto?
Gross? Why are we even talking about a below average platoon outfielder?
Howell? The guy who had an ERA over 7 in Kansas City and had never ever pitched well in the majors? Has he done more for TB than Tallet has done for Toronto?
Balfour? A marginal guy with control issues BEFORE surgery? Carlson? Camp?

Look, I don't care if we say both GM's got lucky or both are good enough to spot an untapped talent, but yu CAN'T say one has a good eye and the other doesn't. Whatever props fgo to Friedman gotta go to JP as well.

I'm afraid I am sounding contentious here and I don't mean to, I'm just not buying into the Rays-love phenomena.

pooks137 - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 01:21 AM EDT (#190189) #

Anders, I believe you are the first person in recent memory to label the Werth-Frasor as a bad trade on any Jays' board.  While I can't remember the exact circumstances of the deal, I believe Werth was not going to make the Jays out of spring training and I'm not sure if he had any options left. 

This is an example in my opinion of something JP probably has not done enough of, converting a surplus or position of strength, in this case a surplus 4th outfielder, to fill other holes, such as bullpen depth at the time.  With one of the best bullpens in the AL this year, it's easy to forget that the pens of yore wear filled with the Tams, Creeks, Ligtenbergs and Adams of the world.

I find if hard to criticize JP for turning a 4th OF/lefty masher who has averaged ~250 ABs a year since the deal into 50+ innings of 100+ ERA out of the pen.  If I remember correctly, Frasor was even anointed as closer for a short time the year after the trade, although we all know how that turned out.

TamRa - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 01:35 AM EDT (#190190) #
His only "fault" is that the teams he built that were good enough on paper never actually came through (2003 and 2006-2008).

I agree with this general comment but I think 2003 was a fluke and was never intended to be a good team.

If you wanna be unfair and pin that on him alone, go ahead but don't be lazy and call him "just an average GM".

I have no problem calling him an average GM because I think that very very few GM's are "above average". Further, I think that the balance sheet is somewhat unfairly weighted by less than impressive performance in that first draft and in the window between when he got done shedding payroll and the time he got some money to work with. I'd suggest that if you consider the first three years as a write off because of the payroll slashing (albeit you can't write off the bad draft in 2002) then his record since becomes much more impressive.
I would also remind folks that if you looked at Terry Ryan at the end of his first 7 seasons you would conclude he was a disaster of a GM.

I'm really interested to know what people think La Cava will do that JP can't or hasn't.

Speaking for me, and I'd be perfectly happy to see JP stay and only mildly anoyed if he were replaced (and that mitigated if LaCava were hired) , the one thing I would hope LaCava or anyone else would bring to the table that JP doesn't have is the ability to keep his foot out of his  mouth.

In every other respect, the #1 reason i want LaCava if a move is made is exactly BECAUSE he would presumably continue the work of JP which I am not unhappy with.

I think people just dislike JP for whatever reason and those reasons have very little to do with baseball.

I agree, but I think too there's a synergy between having a basic dislike for him and having a "why aren't we winning yet?!!?!!?!" impatience. I since a lack of a long-haul point of view among a lot of fans (not just Jays fans).

Geoff - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 02:45 AM EDT (#190192) #
My immediate thought is that the most risk-averse GM is none other than Bill Stoneman, formerly of the Angels of Someplace from 99-07. And I'd say he was rewarded with plenty of luck to get a World Series win in 2002.

Singlehandedly, Mr. Stoneman blows a big hole through your theory.

The_Game - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 05:09 AM EDT (#190193) #

Pooks, Frasor went 17 for 19 in save situations in 2004, and was the 2nd best reliever in a terrible bullpen behind Justin Speier ( which reminds me...JP's trade of Hendrickson worked out well there, too).

 

 

Alex Obal - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 05:24 AM EDT (#190194) #
I'm not sure if Stoneman was a different guy back then, but as far as I can tell he was actually pretty bold in assembling the '02 roster. He had a really strong core to begin with - Glaus, Salmon, Anderson, Erstad - and surrounded it with reasonably high-upside guys. Notably, he moved Mo Vaughn for Kevin Appier when Ismael Valdez and Pat Rapp walked. He stuck with struggling third-year youngsters Adam Kennedy and Bengie Molina as full-time players, traded for 27-year-old Brad Fullmer to fill Vaughn's DH hole in a straight salary dump, and signed Aaron Sele to a stupid contract to further bolster the rotation. A less rash GM, if he felt the need to contend immediately in 2002 at all costs but with little payroll flexibility beyond that used on Sele and Appier might have signed, like, Chris Stynes and Tom Lampkin to make absolutely sure he got slightly-above-replacement-level production from second base and catcher, and then trusted his in-house options to solve the DH hole. As it turned out, Stoneman hit the jackpot on Fullmer and Kennedy, and the Angels ended up with 99 wins.

The kind of 'luck' I was referring to wasn't the kind of playoff-crapshoot luck that any playoff team can fall into. What I mean is that a team that locks up the likes of Lyle Overbay to long-term contracts and views the versatile, professional, experienced, unsplitty and above all reliable Marco Scutaro, Brad Wilkerson and Shannon Stewart as ideal bench players is inherently less likely to hit it big on a Carlos Pena-type longshot as a result of dumb luck, and a team that never buys or sells at the deadline is inherently less likely to ever have Gradybrandoncliff Sizemorephillipslee fall into its lap as a result of dumb luck. You can call the Rays lucky for scoring on Hinske and Pena, but then you also have to acknowledge that the way they've built their roster makes them more likely to score on guys like that than the Blue Jays are.
TamRa - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 06:41 AM EDT (#190196) #
No, actually you don't

For instance, Kevin Mench was signed to hit LHP. Look at what Mench had done in the previous three years in that regard (a .921 OPS iirc) and tell me it was a bad acquisition.

compare that to a frankly pretty desperate addition of Hinske.

Hinske was awful in 2007, but which move produced results? Total dumb luck (bad for us, good for them) that the unexpected happened in both cases.


And there was no more "risk taking" involved in acquiring Gross than in acquiring Scutero (and I'd argue we got more value)

Pena? The only reason Pena was picked up was because TB had been putting band-aids on 1B year after year. The "took a risk" on Travis Lee in 2005 and got .757 OPS in 2005 and .696 in 2006.

Hooray for risk taking.

I'm sorry but I don't see the argument for blundering from an aging Fred McGriff to Steve Cox for a couple of years to Travis Lee to an aging Tino Martinez  for one year and BACK too Lee and then to Pena and once in all that time you stumble on a total off-the-charts abberation of a year and that's a good argument for doing that instead of locking in a guy like Overbay for an under-market deal for 4 years?



brent - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 07:19 AM EDT (#190198) #
You want a do over with Werth? .265 avg .350obp .478 slg in the NL and dropping after a career first half. He strikes out in 25% or more of his at bats. Where would the Jays have put him for four years until he had this career year. I called spilled milk before, and I stand by it now. You can't drag out the GM four years after a trade for a back up outfielder. Gaudin could not be sent back to the minors with the Jays (out of options I believe), and there was no room for him on the roster at the time. You have to look at the context more closely.
Magpie - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 07:39 AM EDT (#190200) #
Werth for Frasor, Gaudin for a PTBNL... these deals are really small potatoes. I'm not a Frasor fan and I have always liked Jayson Werth, but even I don't care all that much. Of course, if Werth could actually stay healthy, I might. But he's had a lot of trouble there.

As for Gaudin, he was out of options and there was very, very little reason to believe he'd be able to make the team out of spring training - he'd just given up 31 hits in 13 IP for the Jays, which is a little discouraging.

I very much liked, and still like, the trade that brought Glaus to Toronto - it's the one that sent him away that bothers me. But the player wanted that one.

Come to think of it, on the whole I probably don't have a problem with most of the specific trades and signings Ricciardi's made - it's more the overall vision, the overall assessment of where his team is and what it needs that troubles me.
AWeb - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#190201) #
blundering from an aging Fred McGriff to Steve Cox for a couple of years to Travis Lee to an aging Tino Martinez  for one year and BACK too Lee and then to Pena and once in all that time you stumble on a total off-the-charts abberation of a year and that's a good argument for doing that instead of locking in a guy like Overbay for an under-market deal for 4 years?

Not a good argument if you're trying to put together a competitive team every year, but if you're just trying to get really lucky and hit the playoffs jackpot, then yes, it makes more sense to keep taking longshots than to lock up league average talent (for his position). In 2006, Overbay was worth 5-7 wins above replacement. In 2007 Pena was 10-11 WARP (according to baseball prospectus). Put flash in the pan 2007 Pena on the 2006 Jays, and that gets them to 92 wins, and maybe the playoffs.  Of course, 2007 Pena was on a horrible team, so it didn't help TB make the playoffs.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 09:52 AM EDT (#190202) #
If a player outperforms reasonable offensive expectations (like Pena and Hinske), it's dumb luck.  If a player underperforms reasonable offensive expectations (like Bartlett), it's plain dumb.  Sigh.

The point though is that Bartlett (like McDonald) is a superior defensive shortstop, and that was precisely what the young Ray pitching staff needed.  Brendan Harris, Jorge Cantu et. al. were stalling their development.  His career OPS+ (at age 28) is 83, and if he can sustain that, he will be a useful player until Tim Beckham is ready in 2011 or so. 

I watched the Rays' 07-08 off-season with admiration.  They had a plan for converting a bunch of mismatched talent into a competitive functioning team, and they executed the plan very well. 

Thomas - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#190204) #
Not a good argument if you're trying to put together a competitive team every year, but if you're just trying to get really lucky and hit the playoffs jackpot, then yes, it makes more sense to keep taking longshots than to lock up league average talent (for his position).

A fair point, perhaps, but who could really have expected Pena to be that good in 2007? I guess it was not completely out of the realm of possibility (like a David Eckstein posting a 170 OPS+), because of Pena's track record as a highly-rated prospect and the fact he had struggled with a couple of injuries, IIRC. However, he had gone through 'intelligent' organisations like Boston, Oakland and Detroit and wasn't deemed worth keeping. Pena's the exception, but with most "longshots" it is far more realistic to hope that they turn in league-average or slightly above performances, rather than that they post the 3rd highest OPS+ in the league.

For example, for whatever reason the Mets haven't called up Val Pascucci despite a .966 OPS for their Triple-A affiliate, after a .967 for Florida's Triple-A team in 2006. He's a longshot who looks like he could actually contribute to a team struggling with production from the corner outfield spots. So, going into 2009, who would you rather have? Pascucci or Josh Willingham (ignoring Willingham's defensive shortcomings)? Willingham's  his OPS+ from 2006-2008 has been 121, 115, 125 (so far). Willingham's last two partial seasons in the minors he posted OPS+ at Double-A of .999 and 1.112. That's perhaps a bit better than Pascucci, but it was also at a lower level.

I used Willingham because his OPS+ over the last three years is very comparable to Lyle Overbay's OPS+ from 2004-2006, which were 122, 112, 125. Also, Overbay's minor league track record is very comparable to Pena's, just like Willingham's is to Pascucci's. Pena's OPS during his last two full (or roughly full) seasons in the minors were .949 and .873, both at Triple-A. Overbay's were .920 and .901, also both at Triple-A.

Which one of Pascucci or Willingham would you bet is more likely to post an OPS+ of 130 in 2009? Or an OPS+ of 150? If you answered Pascucci, I'd like to hear why, and if you answered Willingham, I think it's tough to critcize JP for not signing Pena over Overbay? I agree the 'too many average players' point has some truth to it, but I don't see how you can argue it was at all a good idea after the 2006 season to take a chance on Pena over Overbay.
Thomas - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#190206) #
Before anyone else points it out, the comparison certainly isn't perfect, as Pena had a track record of moderate success in the majors while Pascucci struggled during his brief stint with the Expos in 2004, but I do think the general point has some truth to it. That being said, as much as Pena was a great deal of luck in 2007, his 2008 performance has been more in line with a reasonable projection and the Devil Rays are still contending. Maybe they've been a bit lucky, but they had a concrete plan for the offseason and executed it very well.
Geoff - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#190208) #
What exactly makes the difference between the longshot player and the league-average player who is sitting on the scrap heap in the offseason?

For instance, Shannon Stewart and Carlos Pena are different because of age, potential ability, and...? Is there a certain age one needs to be? A certain amount of service time? Certain abilities that remain untapped?

Was Matt Stairs a successful longshot move last year? Joe Inglett? Or does neither have a high enough ceiling?

Were Ohka and Thompson high-risk or just meddling with league-average? Does there need to be a perceived high ceiling for the player? So because you think Pena might be an All-Star this year, he's a smart gamble, whereas Stewart might only be league average?

Or the case of Frank Thomas: could he have had the potential for All-Star, maybe team MVP-type hope? Is he much different from a Pena gamble?

Would Cliff Lee have been a smart gamble, or another attempt at league average? How about going after Jeremy Sowers? Or Nomar? Josh Barfield? Russ Adams?

Again, what exactly makes the difference between the longshot player and the league-average player who is sitting on the scrap heap in the offseason?
Anders - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#190209) #
Interesting note from Peter Gammons (Insider only).

"One NL team's defensive statistics, scouting and ratings have John McDonald of the Blue Jays as the best defensive shortstop in the majors. No surprise."

Not much of a surprise indeed. Jeter lands in the bottom of the middle.
Chuck - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#190210) #

I watched the Rays' 07-08 off-season with admiration.  They had a plan for converting a bunch of mismatched talent into a competitive functioning team, and they executed the plan very well. 

To my mind, the successful off-season was foreshadowed by the 2007 mid-season move -- finally! -- of Upton from infield to outfield. It's funny how in retrospect, it is clear that Upton was only ever really suited for CF, a position, admittedly, once blocked by Baldelli.

Since that Upton move, it's been a string of reallocating resources and fitting the right shaped pegs into the right shaped holes.

Anders - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:48 AM EDT (#190211) #
My point generally was that JP Ricciardi, like every GM ever, has made some trades that he'd probably like to take back. Saying he has made 'no bad trades ever' is an overstatement. Bauxite Dan Julien has an accounting of many of them here.

As far as the Gaudin trade goes, he was 22 at the time, and immediately became an effective reliever for the A's. As I recall, everyone here was mystified as to why the Jays gave him away - he had a 3.35 era and a 113/35 k/bb ratio in 150 innings in AAA for the Jays in his year here. Again, my point is simply that the Jays have not made 'no bad trades ever.'

Geoff - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#190212) #
Getting back to the fine article, any attempt been made at doing a Snakes and Ladders of team salaries? I know every March or so it's become tradition to guess which teams will rise or fall by 10 wins; how about predicting in August which teams will rise or fall by $15 million in salary?

Of course I imagine it is a bit tougher if there is some dispute as to what the team salary is for a given year because of disputes on the inclusion of bonuses, buyouts, and the like. Or is there an accepted irrefutable source and final authority on the matter?

Mike Green - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#190216) #
To my mind, the successful off-season was foreshadowed by the 2007 mid-season move -- finally! -- of Upton from infield to outfield. It's funny how in retrospect, it is clear that Upton was only ever really suited for CF, a position, admittedly, once blocked by Baldelli.

Definitely.  Upton does take some funky routes to the ball, but he's fast and fairly athletic so he comes out as a C defender.  With his bat, that is OK.  Upton, Soriano, Samuel...if a player can hit and can run but has trouble with the fine glovework of the middle infield, then move them to a the pastures where gross motor skills matter more.
S P - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#190220) #
My point generally was that JP Ricciardi, like every GM ever, has made some trades that he'd probably like to take back. Saying he has made 'no bad trades ever' is an overstatement. Bauxite Dan Julien has an accounting of many of them here.

Wells for a hurt Sirotka. THAT'S a bad trade. A top SS prospect for a low ceiling 3rd or 4th starter. THAT'S a bad trade. A minor and neutral trade like Werth for Frasor or Gaudin for PTBNL is hardly even worth scrutinizing. And as other posters have pointed out, Werth for Frasor was actually a good trade. Like others, I will always stand by the Glaus trade. JP used an excess asset to fill two needs--3B and power hitter. If you don't like how it turned out in hindsight, that's irrelevant. I stand by my statement that he has never made a bad trade that is actually worth scrutinizing.
AWeb - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#190221) #
Again, what exactly makes the difference between the longshot player and the league-average player who is sitting on the scrap heap in the offseason?

I can't speak for everyone, but I see a longshot player as one who has previously underperformed their expectations, where expectations were initially high. This might be due to draft position (like Josh Hamilton for the Reds last year), or minor league performance. Pena was rarely a bad hitter in the majors, but he had dominated the minors at relatively young ages, and more was expected of him, at least as I recall it.

I'd contrast this with someone like Matt Stairs, who had a proven record of performance, had a bad 2006, and then bounced back with a very good year (but not his best).  Ricciardi has had a lot of skill and luck at finding players on the scrapheap who end up having good years, notably catchers, but never had anyone turn into an unexpected all-star/MVP. That's largely luck, but there's no chance of it happening when you take the chances on Wilkerson/Mench rather than a random young guy. Ricciardi uses an excellent method for fielding good teams, but there's just not much margin of error on the good side. I've said it before - who currently on the team has the potential to be a lot better next year? AS in, who could be the MVP next year. Most playoff teams have at least one guy who could reasonably win the MVP (Ortiz, Rodriguez, Guerrero, Morneau/Mauer, etc. ) playing everyday.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#190225) #
In today's Dodger-Cards game, the leadoff hitters are Cesar Izturis and Juan Pierre.  I guess it's a Retro Thursday.  I wonder if Omar Moreno and Luis Aparicio are in attendance to help celebrate.
Chuck - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#190226) #
Tony La Russa loves nothing more than to convert players into utility players, especially if it means turning infielders into outfielders. Today's LF is none other than ex-Jay Felipe Lopez.
Chuck - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#190227) #
More from the Dodger game... Ramirez has homered meaning that at as a Dodger, he is 13 for 21 with 4 homeruns. Yes, it's time for the inevitable "he's playing for a contract" yakkety yak.
Magpie - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#190228) #
Ramirez now has twice as many home runs as the rest of the Dodgers left-fielders combined.

That was quick.

Chuck - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#190229) #
How long until he catches the Jays' leader?
Alex Obal - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#190232) #
Kevin Mench was signed to hit LHP. Look at what Mench had done in the previous three years in that regard (a .921 OPS iirc) and tell me it was a bad acquisition.

Can't. It was a steal and I'd try to lock him up for next year on the cheap while he's struggling. Mench also has a 1.091 OPS in AAA against LH this year, in case you need more ammo the next time you get into that argument. I hope Mench pays off before JP gives up on him. Two years ago I would never have worried about it.

Was Matt Stairs a successful longshot move last year? Joe Inglett?

For sure. It's not that JP can't do this, just that his apparent unwillingness to risk having a glaring hole in the team makes him less likely to, assuming counterfactually that he is an average judge of talent. (I think he's better.) Whether that is a bad strategy is a completely different issue.
Mike Green - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#190233) #
It was interesting that with Kershaw on the mound, Torre sent out an outfield of Ramirez, Pierre, Kemp, rather than Ramirez, Kemp, Ethier.  Ethier is a pretty good player himself, with his stats not looking great in 2008 for odd reasons.  He's got some pop, runs pretty well, hits lots of line drives, doesn't strike out and has a batting average of .271 (with a BABIP of .296).  He's also 26 years old.
Chuck - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#190234) #

I hope Mench pays off before JP gives up on him.

I concur. Once Wells returns, I suspect that Mench will be optioned rather than Wilkerson released. A Stairs/Mench platoon should, theoretically, be halfway useful at DH. Inglett could then assume the 4th OF duties when he wasn't playing in the infield, with Eckstein/McDonald playing a bit more to free up Inglett for the odd start in the OF.

Mench actually hitting a homerun would go a long way to helping his cause.

robertdudek - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#190239) #
Singlehandedly, Mr. Stoneman blows a big hole through your theory.

If your farm is developing great talent, and you are able to pay top dollar for grade A free-agents, you don't need to do much trading.
robertdudek - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#190240) #
The Toronto Fan Cost Index is rising relative to other teams, despite the increasing value of the Canadian dollar.

Isn't the strong C$ the main reason the Cost index has gone up? In other words, isn't the index based on US$?
robertdudek - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#190241) #
His only "fault" is that the teams he built that were good enough on paper never actually came through (2003 and 2006-2008).

Please see the bolded part and tell me who is at "fault" for it.
grjas - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#190242) #
If anyone feels energetic, it would be interesting to plot the relationship between team salary spend and likelihood of reaching the playoffs. For example do the teams spending in the top 25% each year have a dramatically higher likelihood of reaching the playoffs than those in the bottom quartile- likely- and if so how much is the difference. And how do the other two quartiles fare.

I would skip looking for a relationship between WS winner and salary spend- there's too much luck involved- eg hot pitching, batting or lucky bounces- to pick between playoff contenders. But over 160+ games, the luck will generally even out.

Any takers?

TamRa - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:24 PM EDT (#190245) #
Again, what exactly makes the difference between the longshot player and the league-average player who is sitting on the scrap heap in the offseason?

In a word: Hindsight.
-------------------------------------
also...

In the spirit of the OP, I hearily recommend to you the following article. I nominate this for article of the year:


http://taoofstieb.blogspot.com/2008/08/if-you-want-to-jump-off-bandwagon-then.html

TamRa - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#190248) #
His only "fault" is that the teams he built that were good enough on paper never actually came through (2003 and 2006-2008).

Please see the bolded part and tell me who is at "fault" for it.

--------------------------------------

Circumstances.

Contrary to myth, not everything IS "somebody's fault"

(BTW, 2003 wasn't supposed to be a good team...it was only fluke that it did that well)

Geoff - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#190250) #
Article of the year? I don't know, I kind of prefer Randy Quaid's version of the same diatribe. Different team and different era, but same old story.
Geoff - Thursday, August 07 2008 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#190252) #
If your farm is developing great talent, and you are able to pay top dollar for grade A free-agents, you don't need to do much trading.

Sounds right, but then who gets to be the risk-averse GM? The guy who must go beyond drafting and plucking top free agents -- and do more, yet never roll the dice on iffy roster moves of considerable risk? Where does one go, the Rule V draft?

What's a GM to do to be averse to risk these days?


robertdudek - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#190254) #
The default position should be that the 2006-08 Jays were not nearly as good as some thought they were "on paper". Someone is going to have to provide a lot of good evidence for me to think otherwise.
TamRa - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 01:41 AM EDT (#190255) #
I don't mean to be accusatory but I don't think any evidence will convince you. The very claim is a subjective one. How can there be "evidence" that a good team is under-preforming as opposed to it not being a good team?

The only evidence their can be is past performance, which is readily available to examine. If you are not convinced by that, then you have reached a subjective (and thus undisprovable) conclusion.

Even in this very disappointing season, the Jays have only gotten really bad results during 2 two-week slumps, in all other games they are playing over .600 ball. If they end up winning 87 or so games and finishing 5 or so out of the wildcard, in a season where:
*McGowan is out over half a season,
*Marcum misses over a month,
*Hill misses 2/3 of the season,
*Wells hits the DL for a month twice,
*Rolen misses the first month and then goes off the rails for a month (and counting) in July,
*there two best RH relievers miss essentially the whole season,
*Thomas is released in April, 
*Listch spends most of two months in the minors,
*and everyone on the team forgets how to hit HR

That may well be OVER-achivement, not disappointing.





92-93 - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 02:12 AM EDT (#190256) #
"Someone is going to have to provide a lot of good evidence for me to think otherwise."

Speak to Pythagoras.
AWeb - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 08:14 AM EDT (#190257) #
*McGowan is out over half a season,
*Marcum misses over a month,
*Hill misses 2/3 of the season,
*Wells hits the DL for a month twice,
*Rolen misses the first month and then goes off the rails for a month (and counting) in July,
*there two best RH relievers miss essentially the whole season,
*Thomas is released in April, 
*Listch spends most of two months in the minors,
*and everyone on the team forgets how to hit HR

Of these things, I think Hill's injury is the most surprising one. The only player who has forgotten how to hit homeruns is Rios - others just don't hit many. But many of us had penciled Rios in for 25 HR/year, and this team badly misses the 10 or so he doesn't have right now. Maybe Overbay "should" have a few more, but hand injuries can be a harsh mistress. Thomas being released in April is a decision the team has to wear - no excuses. Wells being out an extended period has been tough too, since it's freed up playing time for replacement outfielders who have generally stunk.

The Jays get no pity points for bullpen injuries, since the bullpen has performed incredibly well pretty much all season. And young starters struggling with injuries or effectiveness shouldn't be a shock either. How much better can the pitching be, really? It's already near the best in the league, in ERA and ERA+.

The Jays are certainly lacking any notable good luck on the hitting side, which is unusual in itself. No one having a particularly good year makes it tough to exceed expectations.
MatO - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#190260) #

Something that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the Jays have produced vitually nothing out of Latin America this century (Rosario? Diaz?).  The problem started in the Ash era when  Interbrew cut the player procurement budget and continued until a couple of years ago.  JP likely won't be around when the renewed emphasis in Latin America actually starts to pay off since it takes many years for a 16 or 17 year old to make it.

PS. Rios doesn't count since he was drafted.

Mike Green - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#190261) #
Isn't the strong C$ the main reason the Cost index has gone up? In other words, isn't the index based on US$?

You are right, Robert.  It was a brain cramp on my part.
robertdudek - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#190295) #
How can there be "evidence" that a good team is under-preforming as opposed to it not being a good team?

Sample size is the key. I can readily admit a team can underperform over 200 games due to bad luck alone, but when you start talking about 3 seasons, it becomes less likely that bad luck is the culprit and much more likely the performance is reflective of talent level.

Other ways to provide evidence that a team might be underperforming:

1) The team does consistently worse than objective simulations would have them do (to my knowledge all of BP's and the like projections for the Jays over the last three yeas have not been indicative of a strong contending team). The objective simulations are not perfect, but they do not suffer from "rose-coloured glasses" syndrome, whereby a team's fans tend to look at the bright side of a team's prospects for the season. It would be interesting to take the core fan base of every team before the season starts and ask them to predict how many games their team will win (and only their team). My guess is that the average major league baseball team would be expected by their fans to win about 87-90 games.

2) The scope of injuries and consequent negative effects are much larger than the norm. This requires a full comparative method that doesn't only look at Jays' injuries, but instead all of their competitors. One could calculate the lost playing time, put in an objective projection for the lost player, and compare it to the value of the production by replacements - coming up with a measure of the value lost, e.g. utilizing win shares.

Even Pythagoras says that the Jays have not been contenders:

2006: actual 87 wins, pyth 86
2007: actual 83 wins, pyth 87
2008: actual 59 wins, pyth 62



robertdudek - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#190296) #
Someone mentioned that JP has not made  a bad trade during his tenure. But has he ever made a trade like the Matt Garza-Delmon Young trade? I don't think so. The best player JP has ever acquired in trade is probably one of these three: Scott Rolen, Troy Glaus or Lyle Overbay - two of them were traded for each other. People say  that JP has never traded away a young player that has gone on to great things, but has JP ever outright stolen a budding star from another team, like Kazmir or Sizemore? No. Who is the best young player JP has acquired in a trade? Accardo, Frasor?

Perhaps one of the weaknesses of the current regime is that it has not been able to trade from a surplus to get a badly needed commodity such as the Rays did in the Garza-Young deal.

Geoff - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#190301) #
For their part, they did try to bamboozle Lincecum away. Stealing a Kazmir or Sizemore or Hamilton doesn't come around all too often. A lot is being in the right place at the right time rather than having the smarts to recognize the opportunity.

I believe the current regime has looked for opportunities to pry hot young pitchers away -- but either through not offering quite enough or the other side having some sense not to gamble away good young pitching, nothing's transpired.

Thankfully the Jays backed off of Willis a couple years ago but I think at other times they had tried for Hamels, Cain, E Santana, and I'm not sure who else -- but promising young players (read:cheap and good) are not an easy commodity to acquire. Most teams must still develop their own talent or buy it on the free agent market.

There are only so many Lirianos, Phillips', and Hamiltons to go around. But your point remains: the current regime hasn't made that really, really productive pickup.

Although I think the Glaus acquisition is closely comparable to the Garza-Young deal.

Hodgie - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#190305) #

Even Pythagoras says that the Jays have not been contenders:

2006: actual 87 wins, pyth 86
2007: actual 83 wins, pyth 87
2008: actual 59 wins, pyth 62

I find this assertion curious; at least in how it pertains to this year. According to Pythagoras, the BlueJays of today should in fact be trailing the wildcard leading Rays by 1.5 games and the Yankees by 1. Admittedly that would leave them well behind the first place Bosox (7 games) for AL East suppremacy, but when compared to their current wildcard plight (7 games behind the wildcard) a post-season contender nonetheless. 


Mike Green - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#190311) #
Glaus-Hudson was, at best, a neutral trade in terms of production (offence, defence, position).  When you factor in salary, it was a significant downgrade.  Whether it made sense in terms of talent distribution depends on your view of Aaron Hill's ability to play shortstop.

Garza has unquestionably been a better player than Young this year.  Young may be a superstar next year, and Garza may make a trip to the surgeon, so it is way too early to evaluate this trade from the longer term perspective.

TamRa - Friday, August 08 2008 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#190367) #
Someone mentioned that JP has not made  a bad trade during his tenure. But has he ever made a trade like the Matt Garza-Delmon Young trade? I don't think so.

Jeremy Accardo.

Ted Lilly

Chad Gaudin (though he gave that one back)

Brian Tallet

Justin Speier

All players acquired which were of significantly more value to the Jays than the player dealt was to the team which acquired him.


TamRa - Saturday, August 09 2008 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#190374) #
Glaus-Hudson was, at best, a neutral trade in terms of production (offence, defence, position).

Are you serious?

Without the favorable home field in Arizona Hudson is hitting like Eckstien, that's his true talent level.

Hudson's OPS+ in three seasons as Toronto's 2B was 87, 98, and 91 - since the deal it's gone up slightly to 102, 106, and this year 111

Glaus was at 126 for Arizona, was 122, and 120 for us, and is 124 now.

There has not been any time at which Hudson was at all as important an offensive player as Glaus, and replacing him with Hill nuteralizes anf factoring in of defense.




Geoff - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#190443) #
I believe both trades are fairly neutral in terms of production, or in other terms, "fair trades."

Garza is a pitcher, which carries a big premium, but I don't think if you asked the Twins that they would want to pull the trade back for a mulligan.

Delmon Young struggles with consistency at the plate and has many lessons to learn about work ethic, determination and studying the game. But he's a mighty big "What if?" as young players go. I like his chances of being an All-Star in two years.

The Twins had the fortune of dealing from a strength in pitching (and what astounding good fortune they have there) to deal Garza, who is no doubt good, but no more certain to be a perennial All-star than Young.

And like the Glaus-Hudson deal, depending on the terms of focus, some will say that one team won the trade over the other.

Back to your points, how much salary difference was there between Glaus and Hudson-Batista? I didn't think it was enough to be 'significant'. And indeed, it is way too early to evaluate the Garza-Young deal with perfect hindsight.

Mike Green - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#190444) #
Willrain, both THT's Win Shares Above Bench and BP's WARP have Hudson ahead of Glaus for the period 2006-08.  I am not sure that they are right, as defence measures are subject to controversy.  But, Glaus is ahead by about 10-15 runs per season with the bat, and I am sure that Orlando at least makes that up by virtue of his position and glove.

Geoff,  Glaus' salaries for 2006-08 courtesy of Cot's- $9 million, $10.5, $12.5.  Hudson's, $2.3 million, $3.9 and $6.25.  Miguel Batista earned $4.75 in 2006, and was a free agent after 2006.  There was a big, big difference.

As I said above, the nub issue in the trade was whether Aaron Hill could play shortstop.  If he could (as I believed at the time), then the Blue Jays were not dealing from a surplus, as they only had Adams at shortstop, and a Hill-Hudson combination would have set then up for 2006-08 with good production at a reasonable price down the middle of the diamond.. 

Geoff - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 09:52 PM EDT (#190448) #
Likewise it could be wondered if the Twins would be better off with Garza on their staff; but given the injury to Cuddyer, Young fills a glaring need. Were Cuddyer not injured, perhaps the Twins would not so badly need Young? Or would Gomez be given more time in the minors, using Young in center? I don't believe Hill was ever comfortable at short at the major-league level and doubt he would gain a sufficient comfort level now or in the future. Maybe he could develop, maybe he couldn't. My deduction is that he didn't want to work as much on defensive development to become a shortstop so that he could develop his offense. But I have an active imagination.

The way I look at the Hudson/Batista salary issue is that both were due for new contracts calling for more money.  Batista signed a contract for 3 years, $24M, which is of course overpaying. He received $6M in 2007 last year and $9M this year and next I believe. If you assign Batista a value of $6M in 2007 and this year and next, the cost value of the players is quite level. Hudson-Batista cost $7M in 2006, $9.9M in 2007 and $12.25 in 2008. Compare to Glaus with 9,10.5 and 12.5.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree that the Glaus-Hudson deal was similar to the Garza-Young deal in terms of management on both sides of the trade making well-considered management of resources.
Geoff - Sunday, August 10 2008 @ 11:04 PM EDT (#190450) #
And more on Hudson: recent report suggests he has had season-ending surgery on a broken left wrist.

And he's a free agent at year's end. Let the speculation on his future begin. Does this deserve its own story? I mean, this is the immortal O-dog.

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