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This Day in Baseball Trade Deadline Upcoming; Ricciardi Determined to Keep .500 Team Together
Jays win 3-1.

The trade deadline is a couple days away and there doesn't seem to be much cooking, not even a reliever's or excess middle reliever's name popping up.

Ricciardi:  "We're trying to keep this thing together, so we can have a good run here and be good the next few years, too."




Posted by Pistol on Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:16 AM EDT.
Trade Deadline Upcoming; Ricciardi Determined to Keep .500 Team Together | 131 comments | Create New Account
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timpinder - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:40 AM EDT (#189684) #

Tallet's injury was unfortunate.  With Downs' signed through 2010 and the emergence of Carlson, Tallet was probably the most likely to be traded since lefties are always in demand. 

As for Burnett, is it possible that Ricciardi's reversal is in response to the loss of McGowan, since his career as a starter is now in jeopardy?  Burnett was probably seen as expendable with McGowan in the fold.  However, if Burnett leaves the Jays' rotation now looks quite vulnerable after Halladay and Marcum (if you're a believe that Marcum can perform for an entire season).  Litsch has been inconsistent and Purcey and Cecil are unproven.  Might we see the Jays try to buy out Burnett's option after all?

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Frank Markotich - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:40 AM EDT (#189685) #
The most logical trade deadline piece is Burnett, but you would only deal him if the offer was better than the projected draft picks if he opts out. If it's just lesser prospects, why bother? David Wright was a compensation pick, so was Dustin McGowan. Also Adam Jones and Jarrod Saltalamacchia in recent years. Obviously there's no guarantee of getting a blue chipper, but I'd rather take my chances in the draft than get some guys who project as below average regulars or as bench players, like the A's got for Harden.
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Barry Bonnell - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#189687) #

Was Cecil called up to Triple A?

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China fan - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:59 AM EDT (#189688) #
It's too bad that Burnett often seems to get stronger in the second half of the season -- when the Jays are already so far behind the division leaders that their games are almost meaningless.   If he could pitch as effectively (and as free of injuries) in the first couple months of the season, his late-season improvements would be more meaningful.
But even if I'm often frustrated by Burnett and his inconsistency, I have to admit that the Jays should try to keep him in town in 2009, especially if it can be done for just an extra $2-million or $3-million per season.  The Jays, presumably, have already got his basic $12-million salary in their budget for next year (since they can't guarantee that he'll be gone).  So, if they can afford the $12-million next year, why not toss in an extra $2-million or $3-million to keep him on the team?  What's the alternative -- take the $12-million and try to buy a free-agent pitcher who will be as good as Burnett?  That's a very risky and unlikely scenario -- so I believe they should try to pay enough money to Burnett to keep him on the team next season, unless his demands are ridiculous.
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Jevant - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#189689) #
Yes.  I wonder if we might see him before the end of the year too.
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Jevant - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#189691) #
My feeling is that JP is keeping the team together because a) it helps him keep his job (If he can go to Ted and say "Look, we won (say) 85-88 games without McG, Janssen, Wells, Rolen, Marcum, Accardo for extended stretches (remind me if I missed someone), that helps his argument immensely) and b) it will encourage Burnett or others that this team actually is "close". 

Whether that will be enough for Burnett is anyone's guess.  It seems to me like he wants out of Toronto (regardless of what he is actually saying), and I can't say I necessarily blame him (he has been the whipping boy for the Toronto media/fans for the entire year - ala Hinske).

Also - what's with the constant and unnecessary booing of the Dude? 

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jerjapan - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#189692) #
"We're trying to keep this thing together" doesn't make any sense - what thing?  This fourth in the division, sixth in the wildcard, slightly above 500 thing? 

Presumably, even Riccardi knows we are realistically out for this year - so the goal is next year.  Fair enough if you can get Burnett to lock in for a reasonable amount - but we could still get young, cheap talent back for Downs or possibly even Ryan that would improve our big league team for next year - two young above average types should help our depth and payroll, especially with all of our backloaded contracts.  This also creates space for blocked minor league talent at the back end of the bullpen (where it frankly doesn't matter to the teams fortunes who you have - witness League, Brandon). 

The same goes for one of the two catchers and Eckstein. 

Not making a big move suddenly seems reasonable, but not making a small move?  It reeks of denial and a lack of imagination. 

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jerjapan - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#189694) #
Also - what's with the constant and unnecessary booing of the Dude?

I agree completely!  Hinske was an overpaid underperformer here, but not for lack of effort - he hustled, played (and learned) different positions, accepted a reduced role without complaint and generally was an all-around 'character' player.  Booing him is cheap - it was Riccardi's contract, boo him if you don't like it. 
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Ryan Day - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:20 AM EDT (#189695) #
From the above-linked article:

The Blue Jays GM said he's open to entertain talks about plenty of his players, but Burnett no longer is among those up for grabs.

"We're open to doing anything, if it's the right situation," Ricciardi said. "But we haven't been presented with that."



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brent - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#189701) #
I don't know who first presented the argument that JP never (or close enough to) sells high, but I am really starting to agree. As soon as AJ gets "hot", he is no longer available. I'm not saying trade for the sake of it (and JP has a good trade record for mostly minor deals), but you have to sell high to desperate teams to get the Jays into a better position. I think what gets JP into the most trouble is being too conservative at times. If the season is lost, play the kids. If you're going for it, upgrade where there are black holes.
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Anders - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#189702) #
when the Jays are already so far behind the division leaders that their games are almost meaningless.

I'm evidently in the minority here, but I don't see how this is true, not with more than two months of baseball still to play.

The Jays have made up three games against Tampa in the last week, and have Halliday going tonight. They're also 6.5 out of the wild card. I wouldn't put any bets on the Jays, but they aren't dead in the water quite yet.
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Ryan Day - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 10:42 AM EDT (#189705) #
For what it's worth, they're 19-13 (.594) under Cito, and that's a team missing big chunks of Wells, McGowan, and Marcum.
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Jevant - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#189706) #
I am sure that if anyone wants Eckstein or McDonald for something reasonable (ie  a B-level prospect), they can have him.  But to move them for the sake of moving them seems strange.

I'd trade Zaun or Barajas as well, but I'm guessing the market isn't huge right now (and since they clearly are planning on at least trying to compete, it doesn't make sense to trade them to the Yanks.

I would also move a middle reliever if the market was there, but I'm not sure it is.

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Mike Green - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#189707) #
I'm certainly with you, Anders.  The margins at this point do not make the games "meaningless".  Baseball Prospectus has their chances of making the playoffs at 2.5 to 6.5%, depending on which of the markers you look at.  Somewhere in the middle of that range is probably about right.

That estimate of the club's prospects in 2008 leaves open a number of reasonable options for the deadline.



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Squiggy - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#189710) #
I think Jevant is probably bang-on here. JP knows his job is in the balance and the best way to keep it is to put up wins. Being 4-8 GB of a playoff spot at the end of the season would at least be something to point to. Trading AJ, would, at best yield some promising unknowns that might develop into something really good down the road. JP does not have that kind of time. And as has been said before, other than AJ, he has very movable pieces of value. I do expect at least 1 of Zaun, Eck, or Stairs to be moved though.
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tstaddon - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#189711) #
MLB.com shows the Jays skipping Marcum's start this week and rolling Purcey and Burnett (and presumably Halladay) at the Rangers this weekend. Interesting.

Bastian also says that Brett Cecil's got company on the bus. Looks like Ricky Romero will finally get his first taste of Triple-A. Does he deserve it? Let's hope the recent warm run foreshadows what's to come.
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China fan - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#189712) #
Hey, I've been making the case strongly for several weeks that the Jays still do have a chance this season, even when many others have been completely writing off the season.   I never said that the rest of this season was "meaningless" -- that's a misquote.  I used the phrase "almost meaningless" -- which is a shorthand way of saying that the team has roughly a 5 per cent chance of making the playoffs, which is what the numbers say.   My point was that I'd rather have Burnett pitching strongly for the entire season, when the games are meaningful, rather than just at mid-season when the team has a 95 per cent chance of missing the playoffs.   And of course I am over-simplifying to some extent:  Burnett has occasionally pitched some excellent games in the early parts of each of his Blue Jay seasons.  I'm only saying that he is pitching very well now and I wish he would have pitched this well in the early months of the season -- when it could have propelled the team into contention. 
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Ken Kosowan - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#189715) #
I'll be in Section 113D tomorrow  and plan on giving Hinske some humour-heckling.....

Any messages to be relayed? I plan on keeping it light and friendly, maybe offer him an ice-cream sandwich....

I think it's a bit unfortunate that he gets a bad deal everytime he comes back.

However, if Gabe Gross is starting tomorrow..... he's gonna get it. :)

Here's hoping Tom the security guy is still in the section instead of those without senses of humour.

Anyone else going to the matinee?

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tstaddon - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#189719) #
Jayson Stark writes that the Royals may be about to send Ron Mahay to Philadelphia in a deal that also involves SS prospect Jason Donald. Obviously, there's no way of knowing what will become of Donald, but he's a useful-looking prospect. And if all it takes to get him is an admittedly quality LOOGY, Jays management should kick themselves. From here, Donald and a lesser prospect are Downs -- Tallet and Frasor on his own.
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tstaddon - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#189720) #
*worth
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Lefty - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#189722) #
But of course Burnett's early season performance was not the biggest issue or even hardly and issue for the hole this team put itself in.

Clearly it was the offense.

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RhyZa - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#189724) #

You guys are an optimistic bunch.  I don't think I can summon the required energy to get up for yet another too little too late act. 

Management should be sellers if the deal makes the club better for next year, even if it makes them worse this year.  Now of course this is tricky because we cannot look too far for the future given the age and contract status of our key players so I guess we have to try to contend by default.  A little shuffling of the deck to make things interesting sure wouldn't hurt though.

 

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Chuck - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#189732) #
Are the Yankees desperate for pitching? Eric Milton? Victor Zambrano? Joey Eischen?
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Lefty - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#189733) #
From Rotoworld and ESPN:

ESPN's Keith Law reports that the Angels have acquired Casey Kotchman and Stephen Marek from the Braves for Mark Teixeira.
Kotchman has reportedly been pulled off the field after going out to warm up for Tuesday's game. The Angels get a nice upgrade here, but they're giving up a 25-year-old with room to improve for just two months of an at least somewhat overrated first baseman. Marek was also one of their top prospects. A move to the pen this year has him looking like a potential closer.

Bold move by the Angels. This should help them with their slugging issues.
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Paul D - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#189734) #

Texeira to the Angels

For Kotchman and a AA reliever.

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RhyZa - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#189735) #
I always love to gauge the reaction of trades from both sides.  So far, for this one a few hate it, few are okay with it and a few love it from both sides. 

Kotchman + average prospect = 2 months of Tex and 2 draft picks

Seems pretty fair to me, at this point, considering the outlook for both teams.
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Moe - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#189736) #
For sure this works out for the Braves: 3 years of Kotchman plus a reliever (and some $$$s saved) for 2 months of Tex and 2 draft picks.
For the Angels, I'm not so sure. The expected return on the draft picks is not better than an average reliever (maybe less?), so essentially they give up Kotchman to rent Tex -- their chances of signing him after the season are unaffected since he's a Boras client. So all hinges on how they do in the post-season. I'd say they don't need him to get in, and one once you are in, who knows?

In general, I think in all the trade discussions people overvalue the compensating draft picks. Given the usual draft success rates, you need at least 5 compensating draft picks to get one solid major league player (that's how I understand the draft success rates studies). So, if someone offers you 1 AAA prospect who is ready to be called up and has a 50-60% shot at being a regular and maybe 10% chance of being an All-Star, you should do the trade if you know you will not resign the player you trade away.
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TamRa - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#189738) #
I haven't seen anyone but me make the observation (albeit I just skimmed this thread) but if all the rumors are true that teams are worried about AJ's opt-out....then he's quite likely to clear waivers next month so really, we have all of August to try to deal him if we do fall out of the race entirely and/or get good news on Dusty.


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Anders - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#189739) #
Kotchman + average prospect = 2 months of Tex and 2 draft picks

This assumes, of course, that the Angels do no re-sign Teixeira. I would think that  they are presumptive favourites at this point, given their resources and because they traded their first baseman to get Teixeira.
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christaylor - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#189740) #
Good news on McG? Isn't he already scheduled (or has - even?) to go under the knife? That's a death sentence on his 2008 and probably his 2009.

I never understood why all those teams are supposed to be going "icky" with his contract... the only thing to worry about is him blowing out his arm in the next two months and him need surgery. Hasn't happened in his 2 1/2 seasons as a Jay. Any team (the Jays included) should be trying to buy that option with an extra year and extra money... if JP isn't trying to do this right now, I hope he is fired. I don't want this team to have to count on Richmond, Cecil, Parrish or Janssen next year. None of those are as good as AJ at his worst. Oh well, that was short story long, the short story being I don't believe for a second that he'd slip through waivers, unless of course he's on the DL. Then maybe, but probably not (although if he's on the DL with a torn UCL then probably). Even then maybe the Yankees take him and pay him the money to rehab.

If anything, I bet other teams don't want him for reasons that are similar to their not wanting Adam Dunn/Manny Ramirez.
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Magpie - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#189741) #
The Angels don't need Teixeira to get to the post-season, but he obviously should be able to help them quite a bit once they're there. Of all the teams in the AL that look like they're going to the post-season, the Angels are dead last in home runs. Hitting home runs is usually pretty important in the post-season, because it's so much harder to put together long offensive sequences.
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Dave Till - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#189742) #
I agree that it's too early to give up. The Jays are 6 1/2 out of the wild card with over two months to go. It's not likely, but it's possible.

If the Jays traded A.J., they would sink in the standings. Fewer people would come to the games. They'd lose money. The existing players would become discouraged and could want to leave. They would find it harder to attract new talent. Besides, he's pitching well right now: the whole point is to find players who can help you win.

And, who knows? He might not opt out.

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Rob - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#189747) #
If the Jays traded A.J., they would sink in the standings.

And if they traded Zaun?

Best part is Ricciardi's quote, for those who think irony is dead: "We wish he wouldn't go through the media with it."
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Magpie - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#189748) #
Isn't he already scheduled (or has - even?) to go under the knife? That's a death sentence on his 2008 and probably his 2009.

The surgery is supposed to take place on Thursday. He's done for 2008; as for 2009, it depends on whether the doctor decides if he needs to repair the rotator cuff or not. If not, he should be ready when spring training begins. If work is done on the rotator cuff, it will certainly take a little longer but I don't see why he wouldn't be back by mid 2009 anyway.

For a recent (maybe not so recent - surgical and rehab techniques have improved enormously in just the past three or four years) example of McGowan's worst case (if they have to work on the rotator cuff as well), there's the example of Jason Schmidt. He went on the DL in June 2000 and had surgery in mid-August 2000  "to repair a partially torn rotator cuff and a frayed labrum." He returned to action in May 2001. Pitched pretty well for the next few years, as I recall.
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China fan - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#189749) #
 The story on MLB.com about JP's handling of his unhappy catcher is a very amusing one.    JP complains that Zaun should not have gone to the media to express his discontent -- and then JP promptly tells the media that he has tried to trade Zaun and nobody wants the guy!   Well, JP, aren't you just the model of discretion.
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Thomas - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#189750) #

This assumes, of course, that the Angels do no re-sign Teixeira. I would think that  they are presumptive favourites at this point, given their resources and because they traded their first baseman to get Teixeira.

I don't see how the Yankees or Red Sox aren't presumptive favourites (with the O's and Mets possibly also being players). Texeira's an East Coast guy with Boras as an agent who has already turned down a $144 million contract extension offer, IIRC, from Texas. Given that the Red Sox will have Manny coming off their books (they can shift Youk to 3B or to the outfield) and the Yankees will have a ton of money to replace Abreu (Giambi can move to DH), I don't see how either of those two teams won't be heavily involved in the Teixeira bidding and will likely force the Angels out. I'd place the Angels behind those two teams, Baltimore and maybe the Mets in terms of possible destinations for Tex this offseason. Anaheim will try to resign him, but I think it's far more likely they'll end up with two picks and a new first baseman in 2009.

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Magpie - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#189751) #
Interesting game in Fenway tonight.
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Anders - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#189752) #
Given that the Red Sox will have Manny coming off their books (they can shift Youk to 3B or to the outfield) and the Yankees will have a ton of money to replace Abreu (Giambi can move to DH), I don't see how either of those two teams won't be heavily involved in the Teixeira bidding and will likely force the Angels out.

Well, the Red Sox already have a third baseman, first baseman and DH under contract/control for the next two years, so I don't really see why they would be after Teixeira. Their payroll is also only slightly more than the Angels - $133m to $120m. The Yankees are, I suppose, a contender to sign every big name free agent ever, and may well sign Teixeira.  The Angels have plenty of money, no first baseman, and first crack at signing Teixeira, so it certainly seems like a reasonable proposition.

The larger point here is that compensatory picks are hardly always a given - for them to come into effect the team cannot resign the player or have arbitration accepted, which is a risk that prompts some teams not to offer arbitration. In this case, there is a very real chance that Teixeira re-signs.
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Dr B - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#189753) #
I agree that it's too early to give up. The Jays are 6 1/2 out of the wild card with over two months to go. It's not likely, but it's possible.
 
If the Jays traded A.J., they would sink in the standings. Fewer people would come to the games. They'd lose money.

Well, it's a balance isn't it? You could save money if A.J. brings you back younger players. And money you lose this year, you could recover next.

I totally understand people, and in some ways applaud them, for their unwillingness to give up on a season no matter how long the odds are, but one cannot view this season in isolation. Decisions made now affect future seasons. I am stating the obvious, of course, but I guess its really hard to let this season go even if it may be the right thing to do.

To put it another way, if you aren't going to trade for the future in a not-quite-lost-but-pretty-grim season like this one, it's really rather hard to ever justify it. In fact, the only reason I see not trade away for prospects this season is if you aren't getting value in return. (which may of course, be the case, but I am getting weary of other teams managing to make trades and not the Jays. Maybe that's just my impression.).



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Newton - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#189754) #

If JP wants to make a run why does his club continue to trot Brad Wilkerson out to start in RF on a regular basis? 

Falling to address glaring holes such as those, even on a short term basis, really cause me to lose faith as a fan.

 

 

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Magpie - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#189755) #
Maybe because there are two outfielders on the DL?

Anyway, Pedroia singles with one out in the 9th.

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greenfrog - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#189756) #
No disrespect to Garza, who is having a very solid season, but the Jays lineup is, well, pretty bad. Wilkerson, Scutaro, Rolen, Stairs, Barajas, Inglett, Overbay...yeesh. Not that I dislike all of these players, but collectively? Not exactly Murderer's Row. More like AAAA Row.

And was anyone else wondering where the bullpen was after a tired-looking Halladay walked Upton in the eighth with two out, 110-115 pitches in the books, and the lefty Crawford coming up (and Carlson and Downs available in the pen)?
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RhyZa - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#189757) #
I wonder if Garza will ever give up another run again or if Longoria will ever make another out.

Work those phones JP.

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jeff mcl - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#189759) #
Maybe because there are two outfielders on the DL?

Jigga what now?  Did you just page Shannon Stewart? That's an improvement on something and there are still hopers out there?
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Ron - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#189760) #
Tonight was the first time I saw Doc yell at this teammates. I thought his head was going to explode after he started barking at Rios and Wilkerson in the 3rd inning. After he retired the final batter in the 8th, it looked like Doc dropped a few F bombs on the way back to the dugout obviously upset at himself. I have to tip my hat to Garza, he was the best pitcher tonight.

Zaun wants out of Toronto
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080729.wsptzaun29/BNStory/GlobeSportsBaseball

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The_Game - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#189761) #

Garza was good, but he also got to face the Blue Jays. 

Just a little bit easier than what Halladay had to face...

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Lefty - Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#189762) #

Greg Zaun:

"Trades are a part of baseball," Zaun said. "Things haven't worked out the way I planned them to this year here in Toronto. Getting an opportunity to play on a regular basis for a pennant contender or going back to a place that I'm familiar with, it would probably be a good thing."

JP Ricciardi:

"We're aware that Zaunie is unhappy," Ricciardi told MLB.com. "We wish he wouldn't go through the media with it. We wish he would come to us, especially knowing we have a good relationship. Unfortunately, right now, there are no takers for him. If there are, we'll definitely oblige him. "I think we've been a little bit more proactive than maybe Zaunie thinks. "Part of making a trade is someone has to want you. Right now, there's no one that has expressed an interest in him. That's where we're at."

I've never been known to be a Ricciardi booster, but I have to say within the context of the respective quotes above from these two, I'd say Ricciardi has to be well within his rights. Lets remember that Greg Zaun has fancied himself the leader of this team. He was all over Shea Hillenbrand for putting himself before the team wasn't he. And when he finds himself in the same positon its al about Greg Zaun. But then some of us are not surprised by this self promoter.

I always figured this guy was full of crap and I highly doubt many of his team mates will miss him once he's gone. I find it interesting that Cito recognized this guys contributions don't make him an asset.

Finally its nice to see a Jays catcher throwing guys out again. I think some folks were to quick to simply blame the pitchers for Zaun's inability to control the running game. And thats not to say the pitchers were not a problem, just that Zaun turned that into a glaring weakness that teams continued exploited.

I hope the Marlins have an extra bag of batting practice balls or KC might have some extra pine tar to make this thing happen.

 

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Magpie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#189763) #
Did you just page Shannon Stewart?

No, but he'll probably be back up here in a week or two, so be prepared. And so much for Kevin Mench.

Anyway, Brad Wilkerson isn't the problem with the offense. As fourth of fifth outfielders go, he's actually pretty decent - an OPS+ of 83; just looking around the division, that's better than Melky Cabrera, Coco Crisp, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Jay Payton. All of whom have played more than Wilkerson anyway.

The problem with the offense isn't that they have guys who are bad - it's that they don't have guys who are really good. They're all complementary guys.

I miss Mighty Troy.
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Alex Obal - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:36 AM EDT (#189764) #
If Stewart replaces Mench, heavens. It'll be another sign that JP Ricciardi's notion of replacement level and strategy for building a bench are wildly different from my own.
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The_Game - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#189765) #
Lefty, you've really got to let go of the Gregg Zaun hate. All he did was answer a question there, and he gave a truthful response.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:47 AM EDT (#189766) #
If Stewart replaces Mench, heavens.

Don't worry, because Wells should be back quite soon afterwards. At which point there's no room for Stewart or Mench, unless they cut back elsewhere - the seventh reliever? the third shortstop? There's only room (or need, what with Stairs and Scutaro and Inglett around for emergency situations) for four outfielders, and Wilkerson should obviously be the fourth guy.

I'm really just curious to see how Gaston is going to find Stewart a few ABs while he's around. The only position he can play is LF, which is taken. He could DH; Lind could get a semi-day off, DH once or twice, and Stewart can have a game or two in the field. And we may see Matt Stairs galloping around in RF once or twice so that Sewart can DH.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:53 AM EDT (#189767) #
All he did was answer a question there, and he gave a truthful response.

Actually, it sounds to me like a slightly bored reporter, with nothing to write about, stirring the pot and having himself a little fun on a slow news day. And guaranteeing follow-ups to boot!

"Hey Zaunie! You've lost your job. You're a free agent at the end of the year. You're obviously not in the team's plans. Want to be traded?"
"Hmmm. Well, things haven't worked out. Don't know why. Yeah, that would probably be OK."
"Hey, JP, you know what Zaunie just said?"

You can't take this stuff seriously.
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Alex Obal - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 01:02 AM EDT (#189768) #
That's exactly it. Stewart's skill set is more or less the same as Wilkerson's - isn't it? Small splits and OK-at-best defense, so he's not much of a platoon player. Stewart puts a few more balls in play. Wilkerson grinds out longer at-bats. Other than that, same difference. Guys like that may be convenient to have around in the minors, but when they don't hit anyone any better than any of the middle infielders on the team, what's the point of carrying them on the bench?

Unlike Wilkerson and Stewart, Kevin Mench is absolutely not useless as a platoon player, because there's actually something tangible that he does substantially better than replacement level: hit lefties. For a contending team with Rios and Wells starting everyday and a lefty hitter playing in left field, Mench is the most valuable player of the three.

If the Jays are out of it, fine, let Lind start against lefties and who cares who's on the bench. But, following that logic, I'll take dumping Mench for Stewart and/or Wilkerson as a tacit admission that the team has given up.
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China fan - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 01:44 AM EDT (#189769) #
I disagree with Magpie's dismissal of the Zaun stuff.   Ricciardi says that Zaun is unhappy.  Ricciardi also says he is trying to trade Zaun.  And Ricciardi also says that no other team is willing to give up anything for Zaun.   All of this is news.   It's not exactly huge news, but it's still news, and -- if you're the beat reporter on the Jays beat -- you've gotta report it.  Gregg Zaun is a pretty well-known figure in Toronto by now, and I think some fans will be interested to know that Ricciardi is trying to trade the guy.  There's no ambiguity about Ricciardi's quotes -- they're all quite clear and not invented or spun in the least.  Of course Zaun is merely the back-up catcher, so it doesn't make much difference whether he stays with the Jays or leaves, but I don't agree with the idea that it's an invented story.  A lot of fans have endless discussions about the back-up catchers at Syracuse or New Haven, so why should we assume that nobody cares about the back-up catcher in Toronto?
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christaylor - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 02:39 AM EDT (#189770) #
Um... because the Rays have a much better offense? Scoring 13 more runs over 2/3rd of a season? Not exactly.
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King Ryan - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 03:10 AM EDT (#189771) #
"Tonight was the first time I saw Doc yell at this teammates. I thought his head was going to explode after he started barking at Rios and Wilkerson in the 3rd inning."

I kept thinking of that old hockey adage: "Keep playing until the whistle goes."   If Rios/Wilkerson had seen the ump not signal home run and picked up the ball, well, who knows...

Only the 08 Jays could hit into 3 double plays in a game where they only got on base 4 times.
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paulf - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:01 AM EDT (#189772) #
Keep playing until the whistle goes.

I was thinking the same thing at the time. But honestly, how often does an outfielder look to the umpire for a home run call when the ball is clearly out from their perspective? It must've looked like a no-doubter from there. Credit Hinske for hustling all the way home though.
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Chuck - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 08:11 AM EDT (#189773) #

When Cito decides he likes you, ain't nothing going to change his mind, it seems. Barajas's numbers have dropped to his career norms which means (a) he's not terribly appropriate as a #5 hitter and (b) he's not terribly deserving of an unquestioned fulltime job.

Barajas can certainly outthrow Zaun, but Zaun is at least Barajas's equal as an offensive player, and probably actually better (given that a point of OBP is more valuable than a point of SLG). That this isn't a 50/50 job sharing situation is a reasonable source of frustration for Zaun.

And Cito's love affair with Scutaro? Eckstein has to at least be thinking what Zaun has been saying out loud.

The 2008 Jays don't have a lot of horses so when Gaston uses his resources in a seemingly suboptimal manner, it only makes an already difficult situation even worse, Yes, I know that criticizing Gaston is like spitting in church so I will surely be offending some who worship at the altar of Cito.

On a side note, I'm with Alex in choosing Mench over Wilkerson and Stewart. Mench has done precious little to make this an obvious decision, but on a team that can't hit LHP, the guy with a recent track record of success in this department should be given consideration. Wilkerson and Stewart are replacement level players at this point (hell, Mench may well be too) so I'm all for replacing them. When Wells returns, Ricciardi should have some pink slips ready.

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rpriske - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#189774) #

Barajas and Scutaro getting playing time over Zaun and Eckstein just shows that Cito is paying attention.

 

And the idea that Stewart replacing Mench would be stupid is an odd one. Not because Stewart is good, but because neither is Mench. I just hope they keep playing WIlkerson over either of them. (Actually, what I REALLY hope is that Vernon comes back soon and we get Lind/Wells/Rios for the rest of the season.)

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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#189775) #
Having Barajas bat 5th is "riding the hot hand long after it has cooled off".  Playing Barajas over Zaun with a RHP throwing for Tampa could reasonably be the result of a decision that Barajas' throwing superiority is more important than Zaun's other defensive skills and advantage on offense. 

Since Gaston arrived, and Lind was installed in left-field, the Jays have had essentially a league-average offence.  That is what could have been expected from them at the beginning of the season.  To contend, the club needed league best run-prevention, and at least average luck, as the White Sox had in 2005.  The Jays of 2008 haven't gotten either, although they were in sight with regard to the run prevention side. 

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Magpie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#189776) #
I think Barajas is playing ahead of Zaun (now, anyway) because Gaston likes his defense quite a bit better. It's one of Gaston's lineup prejudices - defense behind the plate. Zaun would have to be a significantly better hitter. Like Brian McCann better...

No idea why Barajas is hitting fifth, but I don't care a whole lot.

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FranklyScarlet - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:29 AM EDT (#189777) #
Speaking of Scutaro

This is from today's Providence Journal Baseball Today segment:

OLD FRIENDS: Nomar Garciaparra appears to be heading to the disabled list for the third time this season. (L.A. Times) That has the Dodgers looking for short-term fixes at shortstop, possibly Marco Scutaro. (ESPN) ...






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Chuck - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#189778) #
That has the Dodgers looking for short-term fixes at shortstop, possibly Marco Scutaro

One imagines Gaston echoing Charlton Heston's "from my cold, dead hands" speech.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#189779) #
Stark indicates in the link that the Dodgers were "shot down" when they tried to trade for Scutaro.  That could be Gaston's doing, but it also could be Ricciardi's.  With Eckstein's contract status and Hill's injury, Scutaro may be pencilled in as the shortstop for 2009.  Sigh.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#189780) #
I think the Jays should keep Scutaro until we know more about Hill's status for next year. Scutaro isn't really a starter, but think about what came before him (Clayton/McDonald). The Jays need to hang on to their middle IF subs, especially someone as versatile as Scutaro, until they have something better in place.

Besides, Scutaro would bring back a marginal prospect at best. And he isn't costing the Jays much ($1.1M in 2009).
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#189781) #
There was a point somewhere during one of the last few season when I noted that the Jays would occasionally save their best offensive outburts - 10, 12 run games - for Roy Halladay. Which struck me as redundant and unnecessary.

Still does, but this is getting silly. In his 8 losses, Doc has a 4.21 ERA - which is still comfortably better than the league average of 4.66. Even with hs team's below average offense, he shouldn't be 0-8 in those games. (A.J. has an ERA of 6.88 in his 9 losses.)

Or we could look at Cheap Wins (Game Score below 50) and Tough Losses (Game Score 50 or better)

Cheap Wins
Burnett 2
Halladay 1
Litsch 1
Purcey 1
McGowan 1

Tough Losses
Halladay 5
Burnett 2
Marcum 2
McGowan 1


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Squiggy - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#189782) #
Trading Scutaro would be the very definition of a trade just for the sake of a trade. As said before, the return would be marginal. He is extremely valuable to this team right now: He is signed cheaply through next year, plays multiple positions, and doesn't suck. It would be different if there was anything better at AAA, but I don't long for a return to the Hector Luna/Jorge Velandia days.
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Glevin - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#189783) #
"The Jays have made up three games against Tampa in the last week, and have Halliday going tonight. They're also 6.5 out of the wild card. I wouldn't put any bets on the Jays, but they aren't dead in the water quite yet."

And this is the problem. The Jays are dead in the water. They are "only" 6.5 back in the wildcard but with five teams ahead of them. The Jays would have to go 36-19 to get to 90 wins. This is a team with Rod Barajas hitting fifth. It's not going 36-19. This is not a 90 win team. Instead, the Jays will end near .500 and the "well, if we only didn't get any injuries and had better luck" excuse will show up. This is not a team that is going to compete next year in its present (or likely) form. J.P. is doing what the very worst GMs in baseball do: have no idea of the real talent of your roster and continue to make runs at 5 games above .500. This is not a contending team and is not going to be as long as the core remains the core.
I
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#189784) #
Pretty predictable (day game after a night game) but today Zaun gets a chance to show why he should play more. And Rolen sits one out.
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Noah - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#189785) #
Anyone know where I can watch this game?  Cant seem to find it on TV or in any live online streams.
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subculture - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#189786) #

This is a rare thread, where I pretty much agree with EVERYTHING that's been posted above.... maybe I'm just in an agreeable mood. 

Part of me wants to see where this team can go, under Cito and Tenace, with Wells, Hill, McGowan healthy....  the other part wants to blow it all up, ditch JP and start a youth movement.  Unfortunately that doesn't seem to play to Cito's type of team... though I'm willing to give that a chance.

It pains me a bit though to see all this virtual ink written about guys like Zaun, Scutaro, Mench, Stewart...  how great would it be if we could be talking about high-ceiling Bluejays like Langoria and Braun... or even might-have-been Jays like Tulowitski and Garza... 

Quick poll:  Hinske or Stairs as your preferred DH/4th OF ?  I always felt we lost something when we gave up on the Dude, who's power numbers would be leading the Jays comfortably this year.

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Barry Bonnell - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#189787) #
The Rogers baseball preview channel should have it if you have digital cable. I think it's channel 400 or 401.
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Magpie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#189788) #
I think it's channel 400 or 401.

May also be 399.

Scott Richmond is a big fella...

Got thoroughly soaked trying to get to this game, and now I get to sit here and shiver in the air-conditioning for three weeks. I'm going to regret this...
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Chuck - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#189790) #
Got thoroughly soaked trying to get to this game, and now I get to sit here and shiver in the air-conditioning for three weeks. I'm going to regret this...

Says the man whose "job" is to watch baseball games. You may not get much sympathy in these parts!
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Glevin - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#189791) #
I can't find the game anywhere. 399 or 400. Jaysvision is just advertising tickets and The Sports Preview is doing something on tennis.
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Edmonton Marc - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#189793) #

I don't think Scutaro's going anywhere.  It looks like Rolen will be taking more days off in the near future because of his shoulder:  ESPN

Not that he's been hitting much lately, but still, I enjoy seeing his defense in the field.

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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#189794) #
This is a must-win game for the Jays, who are barely hanging around the margins of contention. It's hard to see the Jays passing two of New York, Boston and Tampa Bay, all of which are better teams. And of course the Jays have to beat out Minnesota, Detroit, Oakland and Texas. But it would be great to see them get back in the race.
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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#189795) #
If Rolen is seriously hurt, we really can write off the Jays this year. And it doesn't bode well for the future, either. I guess it was obvious that acquiring Rolen was a high-risk, potentially high-reward scenario. Paying him $26M over the next two years could be painful for a club with a $100M payroll.
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jmoney - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#189796) #

The bluejays are really awful. Squander a leadoff triple.... Their love affair with the double play.

I'm sorry but I want J.P. (and Godfrey for that matter) gone. I'm tired of J.P. doing jack with this team and I'm tired of seeing Godfrey on OTR saying the same crap. "We're only x games behind so and so... Remember Colorado last year.... we've had some injuries.... blah blah blah.

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RhyZa - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#189797) #
I guess it's a blessing in disguise that we lost these 2 games leading up to the deadline, as it helps remove all illusion and forces the powers that be to deal with the facts.
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Sherrystar - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#189798) #

I too am sick of this team. Same crap every year. Every year I get a ticket package and ever year I'm ready to get rid of my remaining games before August comes around.

Do Riccardi and Godfrey really think Toronto fans are so stupid that they'll keep putting up with the same song and dance every year? ("we're only x games back... blah blah blah)

July 31st will come and go and Riccardi will keep feeding us the same b.s. he spews every year.

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DepecheJay - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#189799) #

As I closed MLB.TV in disgust yet again this season, I saw a team with passion, hunger, and a team that's driven.  No not the pathetic hometown Jays, but the Rays.  Langoria and Upton jumping around and all the coaching stuff ecstatic and giving each other congratulations.

MLB.TV also panned into the Jays dugout with a 3-1 count and Rios up with 2 outs and there was nothing, just a bunch of guys sitting there as if they expected the inevitable.  Everytime I see a quote along the lines of "the mindset is different now" I laugh.

There's nothing more that can be said without sounding like a broken record.  Sure this team has SOME talent, guys like Halladay, Rios, Hill, Lind, Wells, etc.  but so does every other team in the division with the exclusion of Baltimore.  Our talent isn't better than the Yankees, let alone Boston and Tampa Bay, let alone teams in other divisions. 

People that keep hanging on to hope every time the Jays win a game against Tampa or New York are just Ricciardi apologists who believed the lies and the crap he fed them and were okay with mediocrity.  They just don't want to backpedal now and admit that this team is far off from where we would have imagined it would have been when Ricciardi took charge.  That's a poor choice of words, Ricciardi has NEVER taken charge. 

Last thing, Alex Rios, a bum.  This guy has no clue up there and that at bat with 2nd and 3rd and none out was utterly disgusting.  The only thing worse were the subsequent AB's by Overbay and Stairs.  Wilkerson doesn't get off the hook either.  It's the same problem EVERY year with the Jays, no approach with runners in scoring position and less than 2 outs.

That's why they always lose the 1 run games and nothing ever changes.  This is a game that Scott Richmond SHOULD HAVE won.  If the Jays convert in either of those two innings, he probably gets a win and you can start thinking about playoffs with all the happiness and good vibrations that would have been floating around the clubhouse.  Instead, you're just left with a bad taste in your mouth because it's too early to even go to sleep after another Jays horror show.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#189800) #
Sometimes the "fish or cut bait" question is answered at the last moment.  This is one of those times.  There is a reasonable basis for expecting that the 2009 club will not be as good as the 2008 club, bearing in mind the age and health of the team, and the opposition is young and talented. So, you cut bait.
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China fan - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#189801) #
Yet another incredibly frustrating game, and yet another waste of some pretty good pitching performances.   Even for an optimist such as myself, it's becoming tiresome to see the squandered chances, the constant failure to produce the simple basic plays to cash in runners from 3rd base.   I'm completely fed up with a lineup that is absolutely riddled with offensive sinkholes such as Zaun, Wilkerson, Mench, Stairs, McDonald and Scutaro.  The first four of those players are clearly over-the-hill by now, and the last two are utility players who shouldn't be in the lineup so often.  It can't be all blamed on injuries.  How can Ricciardi expect to win with a lineup where at least 5 of 9 are sinkholes?  And he seems content with this?
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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#189802) #
For me, this game pretty much summed up 2008. Losing an important and winnable game (and series) despite good pitching, the lack of execution with runners on base, the inability to come back despite being only one run down from the fourth inning on. Deja vu all over again.

I agree that cutting bait makes sense; the real question is *how* to cut bait. Even if the Jays want to have a fire sale and start from scratch, they don't have much in the way of trading chips (assuming they need to keep their young players like Lind, Snider, and the better minor-league prospects). AJ is gone when the season ends. No one seems willing to give up much for him at the moment. Rios is in the first year of a six-year contract. McGowan is injured. Marcum is coming off an elbow injury. None of the complementary players (Zaun, Barajas, Scutaro, Inglett, Eckstein, McDonald) will bring much in return.

Which leaves Halladay, Downs, Ryan, maybe Overbay, as the most marketable players on the team. Of whom only Halladay is likely to command a significant, rebuild-your-team package in return. Trading Roy would be a PR disaster for a very PR-conscious organization. And does it really make much sense to trade a 31-year-old ace who stays in superb shape, mentors the rest of the pitching staff, and performs at a Hall of Fame level? Whether to deal Halladay will be the biggest question facing the organization in the off-season.
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Frank Markotich - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#189803) #

Ahh, the frustration.

Zaun and Stairs aren't sinkholes. Over the hill, maybe.

Scutaro is in there because Hill is injured. Wilkerson / Mench because Wells is hurt. Mcdonald is a sinkhole offensively.

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Noah - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#189804) #
SI is reporting that the Yankees have acquired Pudge Rodriguez in exchange for Kyle Farnsworth.  You can scratch them off of the Zaun list...
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Kieran - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#189805) #
Pudge to the Yankees.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index?&lpos=globalnav&lid=gn_MLB_MLB

(See Breaking News section - no direct link)

Seeing that Detroit is not out of the race, does this mean that they think Brandon Inge can catch again and provide just as much offence?

I don't know what the return in the deal is yet.
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timpinder - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#189806) #

The Jays aren't good enough to contend, but they're in a tough spot because they can't blow up the team either, unless they want to sell really low.  Nobody will take Wells' contract right now (if he'd even waive his no-trade clause), Rios' value is at an all-time low, and so is Hill's, of course.  Nobody will take Rolen for anything of value at the moment.  Eckstein, Scutaro, Stairs, McDonald, Frasor, and Zaun won't bring the Jays back any impact prospects.

In my opinion the only decent players who are signed to contracts that the Jays can move for B+ prospects are Overbay, Halladay (they had better not), and Burnett.  If McGowan needs surgery for his rotator cuff in addition to his labrum, then the Jays should see if they can keep Burnett, because I wouldn't bet on McGowan being a reliable starter ever again.  Overbay is the only player I could see the Jays dealing, with Lind moving to 1B and somebody like Campbell learning to play LF until Snider is ready.  Burnett can go too, but the Jays would have to get a AA or AAA B+ starting pitching prospect in return, because I don't like the looks of the Jays rotation behind Halladay and Marcum if McGowan and Burnett are gone.

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Anders - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#189807) #
There is no other way to put it - this is extremely depressing. This was a series that the Jays needed to win, and they scored five runs in three games, while allowing six. Of course these being the Jays, they found a way to go 1-2.
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timpinder - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#189808) #

greenfrog,

You beat me to it.  I forgot about Ryan though!  I'd definitely see what the market was for a proven closer owed $20 million over the next two seasons.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#189809) #
What precisely was Dave Dombrowski thinking?  I have a lot of respect for his work over the years, but this reminds me of the Percival signing after 2004 for 6 million. 


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Chuck - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#189810) #
What precisely was Dave Dombrowski thinking?

I don't defend the trade, but maybe he figured that (a) Inge (320/438) could replace Rodriguez (338/417) and that (b) Farnsworth could be dropped into the Sherman and Mr. Peabody time machine and come out as his 2005 self (voila, closer problem solved).
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Ron - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#189811) #
Musings from Wednesday:

-  The Jays could really use a Troy Glaus type hitter.
-  It’s always sad to watch a once elite hitter turn into a pumpkin. Rolen has had almost 700 AB’s since his last good season and now his repaired left shoulder is barking at him. Rolen will be 34 years old next season and the chances of him bouncing back to becoming a .900 OPS type hitter is extremely slim. Not only is he a sinkhole at the plate, he still has 2 years left on his contract at big dollars. John Mozeliak should be arrested for robbery.
-  Why do I get the feeling Barajas and Scutaro will be the Jays starting Catcher and SS next season?
-  Do you believe players can have a fluke season? If not, how do you explain the 2005 version of Josh Towers?
-  Remember when Alex Gordon was the next big thing? He has had almost 1000 AB’s in the majors and sports a .253/.338/.408 line. He’s one bad/mediocre season away from having the “B” label attached to him.
-   So the Twins lose Santana, Garza, Neshek, and Liriano and they’re only half of a game out of a playoff sport in late July? I’m impressed.
-  If Lee Matthew Gronkiewicz was 6’2 instead of 5’9, anybody else believe he would have more than 4 innings of MLB experience on his resume?
-  Wasn’t Brandon League suppose to be the Jays closer of the future?
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Chuck - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#189812) #

I can smell it now. A blockbuster is coming. Zaun and Frasor to the Tigers for... an alkaline battery. Or maybe an alkaline bobblehead.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#189813) #
I suspect they would get more than an alkaline battery; perhaps an "al kaline" batter like this guy. Cito might even have seen him swing a whiffle bat in 1989 and been impressed...
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Lefty - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#189814) #
Well Ricciardi has about 24 hours before we pass the first and most important deadline.  If he is to be believed there is no real interest in AJ and none in Zaun. I'd say its a little late to be exploring the notion of exploding this team, though I can understand the frustration after such a frustrating loss. But quite frankly I don't see a lot of opportunity to do anything now, that isn't already in the works. Trading or releasing Zaun would give the team a chance to see their catching prospects.

I agree with something Dave Till said the other day: If the Jays traded A.J., they would sink in the standings. Fewer people would come to the games. They'd lose money. The existing players would become discouraged and could want to leave. They would find it harder to attract new talent. Besides, he's pitching well right now: the whole point is to find players who can help you win.

Anyway, it was about two weeks ago that I just completely reconciled the fact that the team isn't in any race other than to figure out where we are at and develop a team to compete for next year. The time to be planting next years corn is now. Whatever we might feel like in our anger, the fact is there is a nucleus of a fairly good team here which is under longterm agreement. This team is locked in.

Its my view that Cito is managing these games for next year and not just tonights tilt. So he leaves Lind in the 8 spot. He starts Barajas 8 of ten games. He leaves League in for an extra inning after he struggles against the first two batters he faces.

I'm interested to see what personnel decisions Cito makes the rest of the way and will be paying attention to his and his coaches developmental management.

For me thats enough entertainment.

It will be very interesting to see what role Ricciardi will have going forward. To me this team looks to be in the control of Cito Gaston and Paul Godfrey.

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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#189815) #
Seriously, Danny Worth is the Tiger prospect that the Jays should be interested in, and if Dombrowski is making an effort to go for it, Zaun, Eckstein, and a good reliever might get it done. 
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Thomas - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#189816) #
That's a steal for the Yankees. Someone should keep this move in mind next time Griffin pens a "JP vs. Dombrowski" article. (Yes, I know JP's made a bunch of bad moves, etc...etc...) The Yankees get a catcher they desperately need and have him for 2009 or will get two draft picks and they only give up two months of Kyle "The Headcase" Farnsworth.
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Chuck - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#189818) #
The Yankees get a catcher they desperately need and have him for 2009

Isn't Rodriguez a FA after 2008? Do the Yankees have a club option?
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Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#189819) #
-  The Jays could really use a Troy Glaus type hitter.
-  It’s always sad to watch a once elite hitter turn into a pumpkin. Rolen has had almost 700 AB’s since his last good season and now his repaired left shoulder is barking at him. Rolen will be 34 years old next season and the chances of him bouncing back to becoming a .900 OPS type hitter is extremely slim. Not only is he a sinkhole at the plate, he still has 2 years left on his contract at big dollars.

Of course, this time last year everyone was saying the same thing about Glaus: He was gimpy, he was owed a lot of money, he'd break down absolutely any second, and there was almost no way he could stay at third.

Heck, I think they were still saying that at the end of May, when he was just hitting 259/369/397, while Rolen was at 296/373/472. Heck, Rolen was hitting about the same at the end of June.

Rolen's had one bad - okay, horrible - month. And while I admit the latest news about his shoulder is worrying, it's a bit too early to be digging his grave just yet.
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92-93 - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#189820) #
Pudge isn't netting anyone picks, for a couple reasons. His team isn't going to offer him arbitration and get stuck paying him in the area of 10m a year, and the other teams aren't going to sign him early enough to lose their first/second round pick, that would be incredibly stupid.

This deal saves the Tigers money and allows them to plug in a similar player from the bench while picking up a solid RH reliever who led the Yankees in relief appearances and is a definite candidate to close now in a shaky Detroit bullpen.

Just as when Pudge was signed by Detroit, I wouldn't be so quick to write this trade off.
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timpinder - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#189821) #

Mike,

What do you like about Danny Worth?  I'm just curious.  I'm only looking at the numbers, and as a college hitter he should have been more advanced but has a minor league career .720 OPS as a 21 and 22 year old between A+ and AA.  I'd rather the Jays get a fill-in at SS for a few years (like Scutaro or move Hill over) while they wait for Jackson to develop.  Right now Jackson looks really promising, with a nice OBP in Lansing he could develop into a lead-off hitting SS.  Does Worth have golden glove?

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R Billie - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#189822) #

The issue with Rolen is even in his good months he distinctly favoured lefthanded pitchers.  Not awful since generally this team hasn't hit lefties this year (which I can't understand) but you have an everyday player with a significant performance split with the poorer split against 75% of the league's pitching.

Ever since Lind's arrival the Jays have looked a fair bit better at the plate but I think the last series shows how desperate a situation it is that they have to depend on the equivalent of a first year player to be their best hitter.  Scoring 5 runs, giving up 6, losing 2 out of 3, this happens in baseball.  But it's happened so often to this team this year that it can't be all written off as bad luck.  Some of it is, particularly the doubleplays, but much of it is a lack of top end offensive talent (i.e. .900 to 1.000+ ops hitters).  Other than Lind right now, I cannot decide who the best three hitters on this team actually are.  And if I can decide I'm hardly excited by the names I see. 

That is a real issue which I see no obvious solution to based on the conservative, unimaginative history of this front office's roster construction over the course of seven years.  Whenever they do make a "bigger splash" it's always for someone past their peak and very seldom for someone in their prime.  For all the complaints about Burnett, at least he was the right age and occasionally gives the team elite performances.

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#2JBrumfield - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 08:00 PM EDT (#189823) #

Today's loss might be the best thing to happen this season because it should end any notion that this team can contend.  I feel bad for Scott Richmond, who must've felt he was in Edmonton today with the lack of run support once again.  No luck getting a "W" in Syracuse and no luck getting one today despite a decent effort.  The radar gun today had him around 90-93 with his fastball and around 85-86 with his sliders and mixing in curveballs at 75 with the odd changeup.  He averaged about 20 pitches an inning over the first three but he finished up strong and he left on a good note, punching out his final batter.  He got a nice hand from the crowd.  The last Canadian to wear #48 did alright and here's hoping Richmond can do just as well.  After watching him in Telus Field last year, it was a treat to see him for his ML debut and I'm happy he got the call.

At the very least, I was really hoping the offence would at least get Richmond off the hook and tie the game but of course, they didn't.  You don't deserve to win when you can't knock in a leadoff triple and Wilkerson's feeble at-bat set the tone for the inning.  The infield was back conceding the run and the best he could do was a weak pop up in foul territory.  I was thrilled when Mench replaced him.  Of course, the next inning it was second and third and nobody out.  I wondered how they would blow it and my pessimism was well founded as Rios couldn't even "drive" the ball past the mound.  Tampa tried to give them the run with Iwamura's error that should've been the start of a double play and then Jackson uncorks a wild pitch to push the runners into scoring position.  With Rios and Lind just missing home runs and settling for triples, this game and really this season was not meant to be.  I'm frustrated beyond belief with this ass of an offence.  I just hope we can get a real GM who knows what he's doing because I'm tired of seeing this crap over and over again.

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greenfrog - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#189824) #
One last thought: it took a while to create this monster. It's going to take a while to turn the ship around (although I do think the farm system has some promising players). I think a new GM is how you get started. Rogers needs to fire Ricciardi sometime between now and mid-October. If they need time to find the right replacement, LaCava can be the interim GM.
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Thomas - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#189825) #
His team isn't going to offer him arbitration and get stuck paying him in the area of 10m a year,

Why wouldn't the Yankees offer him arbitration? He'll be overpaid, but that's rarely stopped New York before. Plus, what are New York's other options behind the plate for 2009 if Posada's shoulder is shot? Then you're looking at free agents-to-be like Zaun and other relatively marginal catchers. Pudge isn't the Pudge of old, but he's a big upgrade over Jose Molina and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's behind the plate for 2009. Even with a best case scenario, I'm couldn't see Posada catching his regular 120-130 games.

Also, I doubt Pudge would decline arbitration if the Yankees offered it to him, but if he did, I don't see why you're so quick to dismiss the fact another team might sign him. Jason Kendall netted compensation picks last year and Pudge is a better catcher than Kendall. So did such distinguished names as Luis Vizcaino and Doug Brocail.

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Thomas - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 08:38 PM EDT (#189826) #
Beyond Pudge and Varitek, the rest of the free agent catching pool includes Zaun, Javier Valentin, Johnny Estrada, Adam Melhuse and Toby Hall. Somehow I don't see the Yankees starting the season with any of those last few names as their starting catcher. It's not a particularly deep crop of free agents.
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Anders - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#189828) #
Why wouldn't the Yankees offer him arbitration? He'll be overpaid, but that's rarely stopped New York before. Plus, what are New York's other options behind the plate for 2009 if Posada's shoulder is shot?

I'm sure the Yankees are just dying to possibly on the hook to pay Rodriguez $15 million to be their catcher, especially given that he's turning 37 later this year and because they already have a late 30s catcher making 8 figures a year. Pudge was the last catcher who was a type A free agent this past year as well, and there are certainly no guarantees he will be type A this coming offseason. No team in their right mind would pay Rodriguez $15 million to be their catcher next year, so if the Yankees offer Rodriguez arbitration they are stuck with him. I really see little chance of their netting two draft picks out of this situation.

Compensation draft picks are an important potential component of any trade, but they are often a potential as opposed to a given.
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Mike Green - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#189829) #
Tim,

Worth fields well.  He's now at triple A, after passing through double A respectably at age 22.  Scutaro is an acceptable utility infielder, but doesn't field well enough to be an every day shortstop.  Justin Jackson is 3 years away, and whether he develops as anticipated is far from a sure thing.  Trying Aaron Hill at shortstop may work out, but that too isn't a reasonable thing to count on. 

The Rays had Reid Brignac in double A last year, and rightly decided that he had a ways to go, so acquired Bartlett in the off-season.  Good organizations ensure that they've got acceptable options at shortstop. 

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Chuck - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#189831) #

The man who doesn't like baseball, Adam Dunn, is now 21 homeruns better than the Jays' best. It's odd that there seems to be so little scuttlebutt as far as he is concerned. Surely there must be suitors.

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GregJP - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 09:53 PM EDT (#189832) #
HR

Guy who doesn't like playing baseball = 32

Wells + Rios + Overbay + Rolen = 29
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AWeb - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#189833) #
The Jays are starting to remind me of, gulp, the Yankees. The Yankees have been holding onto the core of their team for years, hoping to get one more great year out of them. The Jays are starting to do the same, except for this important difference that seems to be escaping Ricciardi: the Yankees old vets are a series of all-star or sure fire hall of fame talent, and you can decline from that and still kick some butt and take some names. The Jays on offense are declining from good/average to bad, with little hope for improvement. Next year, as far as the positional starters go (assuming little change, which seems to the motto right now), only Lind, maybe Rios, and maybe Hill (if he makes it back and is OK) could be expected to improve on this year, just because they might still be on the age-curve upswing. Or in the case of Lind, simply getting more playing time. Everyone else is on the wrong side of 30, and no one is good enough to decline and still be a very good player. Useful, yes (see Rolen, Overbay, Wells, Rios), but not strongly above average. The only player on this team who has ever had a series of legitimately great seasons, and thus is more out of the Yankees mold, is Rolen. And I think it's safe to conclude that he's not just slightly older, he's physically less than he was.

I hate to say it, because I do like parts of this team, but the time to blow it up is right now. Ricciardi can't do it, since it's his team and he already had his chance to rebuild. I know it won't happen because the Jays want to turn a profit, and decent teams draw decent crowds. But Barajas/Zaun, Inglett/Scutaro, Eckstein/McDonald, Mench/Wilkerson, Stairs,  - mostly likable enough guys to watch, but none need to be starting on this team right now. As has been pointed out by others, this is a list of good spare parts on a playoff contender, not a list of starters. C'mon, Blue Jays, show some faith in your fanbase and strive for better things.

Oh, the pitching - love it. Injuries aside, the pitching continues to roll along. Second in the league in ERA, second in ERA+, first or second in K's, and so painful to watch. I hate watching a pitcher like Halladay and knowing that almost any run he gives up is too many. Or that every 5 run outing driven by a few seeing-eye grounders and illl-timed HR is an almost certain loss - there have been so few slugfests this year, it's just not possible with this lineup.
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timpinder - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 10:55 PM EDT (#189834) #

Thanks Mike,

I guess my first choice would be if the Jays got Furcal for 4-years this winter, assuming he bounces back from his back surgery.  Second choice would be a trade, but I was hoping (perhaps unrealistically) for something better than a guy like Worth, based on his numbers.  In a pinch, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Jays move Hill to SS with the way Campbell is hitting in AA and Inglett is performing with the Jays.  Defense would take a hit with Hill at SS and Inglett or Campbell at 2B, but the offence would be improved.

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parrot11 - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 11:01 PM EDT (#189835) #
"I agree that cutting bait makes sense; the real question is *how* to cut bait. Even if the Jays want to have a fire sale and start from scratch, they don't have much in the way of trading chips (assuming they need to keep their young players like Lind, Snider, and the better minor-league prospects). AJ is gone when the season ends. No one seems willing to give up much for him at the moment. Rios is in the first year of a six-year contract. McGowan is injured. Marcum is coming off an elbow injury. None of the complementary players (Zaun, Barajas, Scutaro, Inglett, Eckstein, McDonald) will bring much in return.

Which leaves Halladay, Downs, Ryan, maybe Overbay, as the most marketable players on the team. Of whom only Halladay is likely to command a significant, rebuild-your-team package in return. Trading Roy would be a PR disaster for a very PR-conscious organization. And does it really make much sense to trade a 31-year-old ace who stays in superb shape, mentors the rest of the pitching staff, and performs at a Hall of Fame level? Whether to deal Halladay will be the biggest question facing the organization in the off-season. "

I agree with your assessment of the assets of the Jays. However, the sooner this team realizes it needs to blow this thing up, the less time it will take to rebuild. (For the record, I thought this team should have been blown up prior to the season, but obviously that wouldn't have been wise if JP was still in "charge"). I would have dangled Marcum and McGowan, but obviously now you can't really trade them. I had the fear that if this team fools itself that it has a legit shot at making the playoffs between this season and 2010, there was a significant chance that the value of McGowan and esp Marcum would take a serious hit. 29yrs old starters approaching FA aren't anywhere close to being as in demand as young pitchers with small contracts. That being said, you can't do anything about that now.

The only assets this team has is pitching and that's what I would look to trade. Halladay, Downs, Tallet, Marcum (if he bounces back somewhat to how he was prior to the injury), Ryan are guys that I would be looking to move between now and the offseason. Halladay, by far would net this team the best haul (esp compared to 1/2 season of Sabathia). As for the bad contracts, those that bounce back get traded for what you can get (e.g. if Rios hits next season .300 with 30hr's I trade him). But, starting to rebuild now, means that the Jays might be able to field a competitive team (a legit one) by sometime in 2012 (instead of say 2017 if this team dragged its feet), which is close to the time that Vernon comes off the books. That is assuming that the other aspects of the team are run well (esp drafting and scouting Latin America).

I agree with you that the Jays need to fire JP ASAP. LaCava is a fine choice as interim GM.


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ayjackson - Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#189841) #

According to The Palm Beach Post, Jason Bay is (tentatively) a Red Sock....

proposed deal:

Marlins get: Manny Ramirez, cash, prospect from Red Sox
Red Sox get: Jason Bay, John Grabow
Pirates get: Ryan Tucker, Jeremy Hermida, one prospect from Red Sox

 

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King Ryan - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 02:03 AM EDT (#189843) #
I agree that it is not wise to sell low.   Scutaro won't bring back anything of use and, hell, if Pudge Rodriguez can only bring in an old and mediocre reliever, then trading Zaun is a waste of time. 

I would keep the OF intact.  They're all under 30  (Wells barely, I know,) and if Rios was to be traded it had to be after last season.  I  would keep Halladay because he's such a draw and because he's the only player to whom I feel emotional attachment.

The rest of the team, though?   Pffft.

BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett should absolutely be moved.  I will be infuriated if Burnett is not moved, as he will certainly opt out at the end of the year, and BJ will probably be overvalued by contending teams who need a "proven closer."  While he's a good player still, his strikeouts are down and with a reliever of his age and injury history that is not a good sign...

Stairs, Overbay, Rolen and Eckstein might fetch some decent players and if so, why not?  Eckstein and Rolen still have that reputation for being gamey gritters (or is that gramey gitters.  No, Gritty gamers.   That's it.)  Maybe some stupid team will overvalue that, even though those of us who have watched Rolen in the "clutch" this year know what horsecrap it is....

I know it sounds "panicky" to want to "blow it up," but like others I am just so tired of watching an old, mediocre team with no present and no future.   I mean, does anyone even realize how OLD this offense is?  This is not some young team that is struggling to find its footing.  The Jays "team age" for their position players is older than the Yankees.   In fact, it is the oldest offense in the Majors.  The Majors.   The Giants -- THE GIANTS -- have a younger offense than the Jays do.  I mean holy crap!  That is not a good sign for a .500 team. 

Trade all the players above for a bunch of young players and hope to catch some lightning in a bottle.  Otherwise it's going to be the same 75-85 win team that we have seen for the past seemingly forever seasons...
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Ron - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 02:14 AM EDT (#189844) #
I would keep Halladay because he's such a draw

Is this really true? I don't see 35,000+ everytime Doc takes the mound at RC.

I know when Clemens was with the Jays, there wasn't a big spike in attendance when he pitched.


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King Ryan - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 02:22 AM EDT (#189845) #
I guess "draw" wasn't the correct word.  I didn't mean it in the literal sense, I suppose, although it COULD be true in that sense.  I just mean it in a generic "face of the team," marketable kind of sense.  If you trade Doc, there's almost nothing left to talk about with the Jays right now.   I honestly don't even look forward to the games any more unless he's pitching.
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brent - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 05:39 AM EDT (#189847) #
When people say the Jays have the oldest offense in the league, was that at opening day with Frank Thomas still counting? Is it the current team?
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Dave Till - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 07:05 AM EDT (#189849) #
I sometimes wonder whether MLB is orchestrating things so that big-market teams make the playoffs every year. It would cost the leagues money if the Yankees didn't make the playoffs. I'm just sayin'.

Tin-foil conspiracies aside, the Pudge trade is exactly the sort of thing the Yankees have been doing for years: find expensive players well into their 30s with declining skills but some value, and when teams want to offload such players, pounce. It can work, if you collect enough of them and aren't worried about the total team payroll. The Yankees are kind of like the Debt Management Agency of baseball: if you sign an expensive player, and decide you can't afford him any more, you can call Brian Cashman and he'll relieve your financial pressure.

I'm not sure that blowing the Jays up is the answer. How many teams have become successful starting from ground zero? Does trading established players for prospects really work? Billy Beane is the only GM who has successfully done this, and I still think that much of his success resulted from, by chance, having a bunch of starting pitchers get good all at once. (The A's are at 53-54 as I write this.) Sure, you can offload a player or two here and there, or let the odd free agent go to get the draft picks, but teams win by acquiring major league talent, not by trading it.

I can't believe that anyone would even consider trading Halladay. He's arguably the best pitcher in baseball, he's a lifetime Jay, he likes it here, and he's not highly paid (given the state of the market). What could you possibly get for him that would make it worth it to trade him? And what message would that send to the rest of the team?

I've said, all along, that J.P.'s greatest flaw is that he just hasn't been lucky enough. It might be time to let him go, just to get some new ideas in here, and maybe change the karma. (In a parallel universe, none of the Jays' freak injuries happened, Russ Adams took the last step forward and became a quality infielder, Josh Phelps learned to hit funny breaking pitches, and Aaron Hill didn't bong his head. Among other things.) And the new guy would need to beat the bushes as much as possible for talent: find all the Joe Ingletts out there, find the best overseas talent, and work hard to get the most out of the standard baseball draft. (Also: work the Canadian market as much as possible. Almost every baseball player born in Canada would be very happy to be a Jay. Work with this!)

If you blow the team up, you risk becoming the next Kansas City Royals.

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Thomas - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 07:07 AM EDT (#189850) #
No team in their right mind would pay Rodriguez $15 million to be their catcher next year, so if the Yankees offer Rodriguez arbitration they are stuck with him.

I agree there's not a huge chance the Yankees end up with two picks, but that's because I think they'll sign Pudge for 2009. Maybe they'll just let him go and resign him as a free agent, but Pudge as a Yankee makes more and more sense to me. I have yet to hear a more plausible alternative. Do you really think the Yankees will enter 2009 with Jose Molina or Javier Valentin as their everyday catcher? If not, who is going to do the catching for them? The only other alternative is perhaps a trade with Texas for one of their catchers, but the Yankees only real trading chit is Ian Kennedy and I'm not sure if that'd get it done.

Last year Kendall had an OPS+ of 63 and the Brewers, not exactly known for their high-spending ways, signed him with an option year for 2009 at about $4.5 million that's going to vest automatically. Pudge has an OPS+ of 101 and has never been below 85. Do you really think a possible 1-year $10 million contract will make the Yankees scorn Pudge and put their eggs in the basket of Jose Molina and his 58 OPS+?

The Yankees have Giambi, Abreu and Pavano coming off their books (assuming they resign Pettitte and Mussina), which will give them lots of money to spend. While the team will likely make a run at CC and one of the premier hitters (Tex or Dunn), one can make a strong argument that the team's single biggest weakness entering the 2008 offseason will be catcher. Again, I don't see why them signing Pudge is such a farflung scenario.
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Thomas - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 07:16 AM EDT (#189851) #
Apparently the Tigers approached the Yankees with this deal, so perhaps Cashman was more willing to live with Molina than I presumed. Nevertheless, I'll stand by my prediction that there's a better than 50-50 shot Pudge winds up catching for the Yankees in 2009, as I'm operating on the assumption Posada's shoulder is too badly damaged for him to be anything close to an everyday catcher.
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FranklyScarlet - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 07:59 AM EDT (#189852) #
If Lee Matthew Gronkiewicz was 6’2 instead of 5’9, anybody else believe he would have more than 4 innings of MLB experience on his resume?

Gronk had TJ Surgery in May.
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King Ryan - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#189866) #
I'm not sure that blowing the Jays up is the answer. How many teams have become successful starting from ground zero? Does trading established players for prospects really work?

The Marlins.  Twice.  

The Rays are only having the success they're having this year because they were so terrible before that they've been able to build a team full of good young players.

To be fair, we don't really know how much "blowing it up" works because not many teams have the stones to do it.   But I do know that this team is going nowhere, and by the time the Jays are contenders, Burnett, Ryan, Rolen, Stairs et. al will not be with the team anyway, so might as well get something for them while you can.

If you blow the team up, you risk becoming the next Kansas City Royals.

How?  When did the Royals "blow it up?"  If you DON'T blow it up, you become the Baltimore Orioles (or hey, Toronto Maple Leafs,) perennially thinking you can contend if ONLY you have luck and if ONLY you sign one or two vets, then coming up short year after year after year.  

Hell, even the Royals, with Soria, Gordon, DeJesus, Greinke, Teahen, and Butler look more appealing than the Jays sometimes.
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Ryan Day - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#189867) #
The Marlins.  Twice.

This sounds kind of weird to say, but two World Series wins don't make a successful franchise. The Marlins are dead last in attendance in the NL this year. They were last last year. They were last in 2006. They were 15/16 in 2005.  In 2004, the year after they won the WS, they were 14/16.

The "95 wins or bust" philosophy has its advantages, but it can have a huge impact on attendance - and if you don't have fans, you don't have money.

Even beside that, their two playoff appearances came via the wild card, with 92 and 91 wins - not significantly better than the Jays are capable of.
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RhyZa - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#189873) #

Dave I was just thinking the same thing yesterday.  JP definitely needs some fine tuning with the way he handles certain things, but it does seem he has been quite unlucky.

And it's not necessarily with injuries, but more with how his moves are viewed at the time, versus how they are though of in hindsight.   Most of them do seem to be based on sound logic, however some do seem to be a bit too short sighted, with no plan B should it fail.  With that said, a change of scenery is in order for all parties.

I'm just tired of hearing nonsensical reasonings why JP should go by the likes of the Bobcat (i.e the 3rd basemen musical chairs), when simply failing to make the playoffs in 7 years should suffice.

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JustinD - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#189880) #
Going to jump into the fire sale discussion here for a bit. It's more of a better idea in theory, plus these Jays teams have no where near the kind of talent those Marlins WS teams had.

The Marlins have won two World Series yes, but both of those didn't come from blowing the team up. That move has only worked once for them, unless they win the World Series this year or next  The World Series title in 97 was more or less a Yankee way of winning things. They signed Devon White, Al Leiter, Kevin Brown, Livan Hernandez in the 95-96 off-season and followed that up the next off-season by signing Moises Alou, Bobby Bonilla, and Alex Fernandez (woops that one backfired) and then acquired Darren Daulton and Craig Counsel at the deadline, both key members of that WS title.

Then they blew that team up. But it was a team that won a World Series, not like our beloved Jays that won a tough 87 games in the rough AL East. And from that one fire sale won in 03 as we all know. They then blew that team up, once again another World Series winning team and has gone on to win what, 78 games in a season? So in fairness, the fire sale has only worked once, baring a World Series victory in the coming years for these group of Marlins. Sure this Marlins team is a lot more interesting to watch than our Jays and if their management spent any money on this group of fish, they probably could win the WS this year.

So what should our Jays do? Don't look at me, I'm no GM. Steal Josh Hamilton and make him wear a Wilkerson uniform? That's a good start. A fire sale probably isn't the best option for this team is all I think.

And one more thing, as far as looking at the attendance of the Marlins, you have to know the area. In South Florida in the summer, it rains every single night. Not many people want to go to a game knowing its probably going to get rained out and there is more than likely going to be a rain delay. Not only that, it's an awful stadium to watch baseball in. It's a football stadium.
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Matthew E - Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#189887) #
I think the Jays only have two options:

1. stay the course
2. fire Ricciardi and blow everything up
(actually, I suppose there's also 3. raise the payroll dramatically and go for it now! But I have to believe that's not going to happen.)

There's no in-between. Any attempt to steer a course between options 1 and 2 will end up just being option 1, because this team is too

a) expensive
b) mediocre
c) signed for too long, and
d) old

to do anything but decline gently over the next, what, five years, no matter what adjustments are made. Ricciardi has painted the franchise into a corner. The only choices are to sit in the corner until it dries, five years later, or to make some footprints.
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robertdudek - Friday, August 01 2008 @ 12:38 AM EDT (#189981) #
I sometimes wonder whether MLB is orchestrating things so that big-market teams make the playoffs every year. It would cost the leagues money if the Yankees didn't make the playoffs. I'm just sayin'.

No salary cap in baseball. No other orchestrating needed.
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