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Today, Dave Steib is 51. And Cliff Johnson is exactly a decade older at 61. The two, who were teammates from 1983-85, each had individual reputations (deserved or not is incidental to this point) for, well, surliness might be a strong word, but let's go with that.

So here's a challenge for you -- with the second-greatest SP in Blue Jay history on the mound and the massiveness of Cliff J. either catching or (preferably) at designated hitter, who else fills out the lineup card for the All-Time, All-Jays, All-Surly squad?

 

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John Northey - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#189209) #
Well, obviously George Bell is in LF.  Damaso Garcia at 2B with his uniform ablaze. 
Dewey - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#189210) #
Neither Doyle Alexander nor Dave Stewart was exactly warm and fuzzy.  Pretty decent pitching staff shaping up.
ayjackson - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#189211) #

Lefty, David Wells out in the pen?  Zaun seems displeased, at least, most of the time. 

Good luck with first base.

Original Ryan - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#189212) #
Shea Hillenbrand deserves a spot on the team.

If you need a utility infielder, I remember Mike Wilner describing Dave Berg as a grump (or something to that effect).
jeff mcl - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#189213) #
Ernie Whitt sounded pretty crusty after he got canned this summer, but I think he still falls far short of the "surly" threshold.  Gene Tennace would definitely be the hitting coach, though.
Four Seamer - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#189214) #

Can't argue with Damo (although he was perhaps more tempestuous than surly), but we also have to make room for Jeff Kent somewhere on this team.  He could probably play third in a pinch.

 

DJR - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#189215) #
Junior Felix was downright surly when questioned about his age.  You could stick him in the outfield.
Geoff - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#189218) #
I can't believe I'm the first one to suggest Burnett as eligible here. Is he not good enough to make the team?

Does Raul Mondesi have a shot at making the team?

And who can forget the contributions to Jays surliness that Roger Clemens made to this club?



Geoff - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 02:40 PM EDT (#189219) #
And if you're stuck at first, you could always close your eyes and pretend that the Big Hurt could still play in the field.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#189221) #
In his updated Historical Abstract, Bill James goes off on a tangent about how the nicest people in the game tend to be those who play the defensive positions (and play them well), while the most difficult personalities tend to flock at the other end of the defensive spectrum. He may have been writing about Brooks Robinson (my copy's not handy), one of the famous nice guys of all time. It makes a lot of sense - defense is team dependent, guys working together - the batter's box is for the solo artist. And the pitcher's mound is where you find the prima donnas.

There are exceptions, of course - Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, and Albert Belle all played the same position as Stan Musial. Rogers Hornsby was a second baseman.

The Jays haven't had a lot of the Real Bad Actors. Raul Mondesi wasn't really a bad guy - he was a party animal, and you sure didn't want young players trying to keep up with him or taking him as a role model (Felipe Lopez, hello!). Damaso Garcia was emotional and impulsive, but he wasn't at all mean and nasty like Ted Williams. So there aren't many good candidates.

I'd think you'd have to find room for Willie Aikens at DH and Mark Lemongello in the rotation. Doing time should be enough to get you qualified. I would think Charlie O'Brien is your man behind the plate. Dour Doyle Alexander is definitely in the rotation, along with Dave the Prima Donna, Meltdown Mark, Fat David Wells, and Rocket Roger. Hillenbrand is going to have to play first, because there's no way Upshaw, McGriff, Olerud, Delgado, or Overbay are on this team. They're all trying out for the other one.

Roy Howell is probably going to be at third, but let's give Scott Rolen some time to grow into the job.

Helpmates - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#189224) #
Really, was Roy Howell a prickly type?  I didn't know that.
Barry Bonnell - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#189227) #
Let's go with Barry Bonnell off the bench.
Original Ryan - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#189232) #
Surly once every five days: Roy Halladay (a good guy the other four days, by all accounts)
Magpie - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#189233) #
Really, was Roy Howell a prickly type?

Ah, not really. Just in comparison to the others.
Geoff - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#189234) #
I don't think Roy can qualify as a surly character just because he gets his nasty competitor mood on to take the hill. Similar misconception could be made about Dave Stewart and Pat Hentgen. And dozens of other pitchers in Jays history. So many have tried their best to look grumpy on the mound, but what do I know about how Billy Koch is outside of the game, for example?

Hard to judge players on their off-field character when there is so little access to that.  Even Barry Bonds manages to look like a nice guy under media scrutiny some of the time.

Geoff - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#189236) #
Perhaps it would help to explicitly define what grants a players access to this All-Surly team.

I take it to mean that a player has demonstrated that he does not appropriately respect and care for his teammates, opponents, fans, media or other coworkers in and outside of the game.

Burnett, Clemens, Hillenbrand, Wells, have all demonstrated this. The above definition leaves a lot open to interpretation of what is appropriate, and makes no mention as to how often such infractions need to be made. Based on a single event, Robbie Alomar could be admitted.

But in no way do I see Roy Halladay fitting the bill. He has a good idea of the appropriate level respect and caring for opponents, media et al.

Original Ryan - Tuesday, July 22 2008 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#189238) #
But in no way do I see Roy Halladay fitting the bill. He has a good idea of the appropriate level respect and caring for opponents, media et al.

I was referring to (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) the focus he apparently displays on days he's scheduled to pitch.  Vernon Wells said (according to Jamie Campbell, I think), that Halladay won't even say hello to his teammates on those days.
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, July 23 2008 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#189275) #

Here's what I pieced together from the contributions -- you all know the Toronto player reps far better than me, so I took you at your word. The Talent is all in the pitching staff, while we had to slide D-Gar over to short to even fill out an entire lineup. And Big Cliff doesn't even make the starting lineup? Who's missing?

LINEUP
C Charlie O'Brien
1B Willie Aikens
2B Jeff Kent
SS Damaso Garcia (played 13 games there, all with NYY)
3B Shea Hillenbrand
LF George Bell
CF Barry Bonnell
RF Junior Felix
DH Frank Thomas

BENCH
Cliff Johnson
Roy Howell

PITCHING STAFF
Dave Stieb
Doyle Alexander
Dave Stewart
David Wells
A.J. Burnett
Roger Clemens
Mark Lemongello

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 23 2008 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#189279) #
The Talent is all in the pitching staff

hmm...Jeff Kent and Frank Thomas are/were pretty good players.  :)
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