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Well, the Jays have lost five straight and thirteen out of seventeen. It's a pretty depressing time to be a Jays fan.


If you haven't already heard about what happened , you can read about it here. Basically the Jays stunk up the joint and scored six runs in the bottom of the 9th to lose by one run. The game wasn't on generally accessible television, so I was following it on Gameday and chatting with occasional bauxite Useless Tyler. There was some confusion with padding and Rios and Prince Fielder hit an inside the park home run. The 5'11, 270 pound Prince Fielder. Anyway, the Jays were getting killed at that point and so we sort of laughed at it, with Tyler offering these remarks:

TK says: (3:26:38 PM)
if they lose 7-0 who cares
TK says: (3:26:42 PM)
if they lose 7-6 we can complain

Well I guess we have a lot of complaining to do.

The funny thing is that this is Fielder's second inside the park home run. Both have been against AL teams too! (You can find that video here if you look on the right, and you can sort of see today's effort here.)

In any event, I'm sure the big story for the next couple of days, until the axe inevitably falls, will be John Gibbons' job. I don't really believe that any of this is his fault. Heck, I like Gibbons. This team was supposed to win 90 or so games, and is unlikely to do so at this point, and someone is going to take the fall. I hope Gibbons gets another job, because from all I've observed he is a pretty decent guy, and has generally done a pretty good job with the pieces he has. It's not his fault that his general manager thought that Shannon Stewart could still play baseball, or that Adam Lind got off to a poor start and isn't hitting .300 in the bigs as opposed to AAA. Heck, the Jays have now suffered injuries to every theoretical opening day starter except Alex Rios and Lyle Overbay (Frank Thomas is on the DL, after all). Marco Scutaro has started fifty-four games for crying out loud!

Then there's JP RIcciardi. I don't think Ricciardi is a terribly fantastic GM, nor do I think he is a terribly poor GM. The team's drafts the last couple of years look very promising, and one of the hallmarks of his career as a GM have been some extremely astute, cheap free agent pickups (Zaun, Downs, Barajas, Stairs, McDonald and even Scutaro this year come to mind immediately). With that being said, there have been some pretty... inexplicable small moves, such as signing Shannon Stewart, releasing Reed, playing Stewart, leaving Lind in AAA, starting Stewart, and whatever else you want to throw in there (though these days may also be at an end!). I won't even get into the big things (uh, Vernon Wells in four years is going to be interesting). I'm going to take a closer look at the last couple of years of the JP Ricciardi regime in Toronto on Monday, so I'll get into more detail then. I am basically of the opinion though that if you think Gibbons needs to go, then you have to say that Ricciardi deserves the same fate - Gibbons is his coach, these are his players.

I think that Gibbons is fighting for his job. I just hope that the Jays have enough class to not Randolph him.
TDIB 20 June 2008: Don't Call it a Comeback. | 30 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Chuck - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 07:41 AM EDT (#187603) #
Looks like the Brewers had Burnett for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Pistol - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#187606) #
It's too bad I don't get to see Lind play in the minors because I would think that his .330/.396/.537 would translate quite well in left field for the Jays.  Maybe he doesn't enjoy baseball - I guess we can't tell from the outside.
Squiggy - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#187608) #

I feel bad for Gibby, especially if that stinker was his last game... hard to fault him for what has happened here. I follow the Mariners quite closely as well, and in that case Mclaren was clearly in over his head - making bizarre lineup decisions (Vidro batting third, with the 3rd lowest OPS in MLB) and sticking with horrible players in high leverage situations. That is not the case with Gibbons - he actually does a pretty good job in most phases, and I agree with JP when he says that Gibbons has done his best job to date this year. It is a pity that, barring an immediate turnaround, he has probably managed his last game at the RC.
ayjackson - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#187609) #

Maybe he doesn't enjoy baseball - I guess we can't tell from the outside.

This is tiresome already.  I can give the guy a break on this one.  He's about to fire his good friend and is under a world of stress, then happens to go off on a fan calling in to his radio spot.  He's apologized for it, let's move on.  He's dead right when he says that the team knows more about players than the average fan.  His choice of words in his reply was, on the whole, horrible.

I guess he should be like every other GM in sports and be less accesible to the fans and media.  I've always felt that JP would be a much higher regarded GM if he was seen and not heard.

85bluejay - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#187610) #

If a long losing streak will result in Jp being fired, then I am willing to put up with the that - The worst thing

would be for this team to be .500 again because Jp will manage to keep his job and we will get another

lousy drafting position again. I am totally baffled at the continuing support Jp receives from this site - 7 years is

way too long for failure to continue. I want a GM who puts acquiring (draft/trade/int'l sign) and developing

quality talent at the top of his agenda - that means being aggressive in the draft,using rule v , paying for high

end int'l talent even if this means a smaller budget for the big league team - I don't care if the jays ever sign

another type A free agent again.

As far as gibbons is concerned, while I am not a fan, firing him without firing JP seems pointless to me. 

Spicol - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#187611) #
Yes, but how about that Joe Inglett?
greenfrog - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#187612) #
"I've always felt that JP would be a much higher regarded GM if he was seen and not heard."

Maybe. His comments (for example, around Ryan's injury and Dunn's attitude) certainly haven't helped, but do you really think a more reserved JP would be highly regarded at this point in his Jays tenure? After no trips to the playoffs, no 90-win seasons, a floundering big-league club, big contracts given to players who are looking pretty average, and a farm system widely considered to be in the bottom third of the league?

I don't think JP has been great or terrible, but I think it's pretty clear that the organization can do better.
VBF - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#187613) #
If Ricciardi is fired, it will be interesting to see how Rogers responds to the post-JP era. Attendance is still up over last year, so barring a complete 2004esque tank (They could be .500 by Tuesday), Rogers is still in line to make their money with attendance, television, etc combined. I certainly believe the days of the 50 million dollar payroll are long over, but I wonder what now happens when that stud free agent is looking for an offer from the Jays in a few months.
China fan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#187615) #
I've been willing to tolerate Gibbons for most of this season, but it's becoming clear that he has failed to motivate the team's biggest and youngest talents:  Rios, Hill, Wells and Overbay.  Those four players could be an amazing core of a contending team.  They're not living up to their potential, and ultimately a lot of that is the manager's responsibility.  When you reward key players with hefty contracts, you've also got to ensure that they stay focused, motivated and enthused.  A good manager can do that.  Maybe they're just not listening to Gibbons any more.  A kid like Rios needs to stay focused, and instead he seems distracted and uninterested.  (I'm not even mentioning the Burnett case -- I'm not sure if any manager can motivate AJ.)  Gibbons might be reasonably good in bullpen management and lineup juggling and bench decisions, but he can't seem to light a fire under the top talents who could lead the Jays to the promised land.
ayjackson - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#187617) #

7 years is way too long for failure to continue

I disagree.  I believe in continuity at the Executive level of an organization.  Unless there's incompetance, an organization's management should be allowed to build and learn.  Much of JP's staff have come in since 2004.  There are good people in the organization and they've made a lot of good moves in player development lately.  If JP's public demeanor, coupled with some kneejerk decsisions, leads to his dismissal this year, then I would hope Lacava takes over to ensure continuity at the Executive level.

Four Seamer - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#187618) #

A kid like Rios needs to stay focused, and instead he seems distracted and uninterested. 

The last part of this sentence I agree with entirely, but I have trouble digesting the first part.   Alex Rios is 27 years old, and stopped being a kid many years ago.  The time when this problem might have been solved by a swift kick in the rear end is long gone.  It's not Gibbons' fault that the GM felt it appropriate to give a long-term contract to a player who appears who most of the time to have just awoken from a drug-induced coma. 

Squiggy - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#187619) #
They're not living up to their potential, and ultimately a lot of that is the manager's responsibility.

Sorry, but I have always disagreed with this notion... was he motivating Wells and Overbay in 2005, but not since
 then? And Rios was motivated last year but not in 2008? It is such a hard thing to measure, and because the players get paid more and have longer contracts than the manager, he has no hammer anyway. Especially in the case of Gibbons, in his first job and one of the lowest-paid managers in MLB. The players all know, at least subconsciously, that he cannot demote them or substantially change their role on the team due to simple economics.  I really wish that firing Gibbons could turn this thing around, but I think the key players are all not very good this year, through no fault of anyone except themselves.

If there was much to the light-a-fire-under-their-ass managing style, Larry Bowa would have won something in his managerial stints (where he had some good talent, especially in Philly), instead of bouncing around various coaching positions lately. Nobody is more fiery than that dude.
Ryan Day - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#187621) #
inexplicable small moves, such as signing Shannon Stewart, releasing Reed, playing Stewart

I don't think this is "inexplicable". Stewart's been a good hitter throughout his career, was pretty good last year, and was more likely to be a solid every day player than Johnson, who can't hit right-handed pitching and was coming off back surgery. Stewart was signed pretty cheaply, too. That wasn't the bad move.

The bad move was sticking with him when it became obvious he didn't have much left. This is actually something Ricciardi's been good at in the past - Ohka and Zambrano may not have been great signings, but they were cheap and Ricciardi cut them when it became clear there were better options. If you're going to cut Frank Thomas after one bad month, I don't why Shannon Stewart gets so much longer to prove himself, particularly when Adam Lind is ready for the majors.
China fan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#187623) #
 I'm certainly not saying that the Jays need a "fiery" manager, and I'm not saying that he has to "kick ass".   Success doesn't depend on personality type.  But it seems pretty clear to me that Rios and a few others are failing to play up to their proven potential.  Their drastic declines in 2008 cannot be explained as age-related or deadball-related or anything beyond their control.  They have the potential to be much better, they are still relatively young, and the manager has to find a way to cultivate their potential.  Ricciardi can only assemble a bunch of talented players and turn them over to the manager.  Of course Ricciardi can be blamed for other things, but I don't think he was wrong to build a lineup around Wells, Rios, Hill, Overbay, Rolen, etc.   That should have been a much stronger lineup than it is, and Gibbons has to take some of the responsibility.
 I don't want to defend Ricciardi too much -- he deserves some of the blame for another disappointing season -- but a lot of his critics have failed to explain where he could have found available players to replace Wells, Rios, Hill, Overbay etc.   There just wasn't a lot available on the free-agent market or the trade market (I don't believe) to produce a big improvement over his core guys.  I think he assembled a pretty good bunch of talented players, and most of them are now unexpectedly performing at 20 or 30 per cent below what they could be at.
ayjackson - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#187624) #

Jason Bay was on the Bullpen with Mike Hogan this morning and essentially said the exact same thing the Burnett said about Chicago.  He'd love it if he had the chance to play for Toronto.  I don't want to misquote, so I'll await a transcript of the interview.

westcoast dude - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#187626) #
I like your idea, AY, of Lacava replacing Ricciardi, within the organization. It certainly appears this is a one-two combination, waiting for the other shoe to drop type scenario. Bring back Cito and Rios' OPB would jump, I have a hunch.
westcoast dude - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#187627) #
I mean OPS.
catchdataste - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#187630) #
Mike Wilner, on the fan 590, has just reported that the jays are to hold a press conference within the next hour to presumably anounce the firing of John Gibbons.
King Ryan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#187631) #
Sportsnet is reporting that Cito has been re-hired.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2008/06/20/jays_pirates_preview/

Holy man.

TheyCallMeMorty - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#187634) #
Even after seeing it on tsn.ca I thought it was a joke.
King Ryan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#187635) #
Bringing back the entire coaching staff from 1993? 

Wow, talk about a desperation move from Ricciardi.

Thomas - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#187636) #
If anyone knows if you can get the press conference online, please post it in the thread.
catchdataste - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#187637) #
This is beyond unbelieveable, I mean, wow....is Ricciardi ever feeling the heat. This is just unreal.
China fan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#187638) #
  The Globe confirms it.  Blair calls it "Flashback Friday."   Gene Tennace to be the hitting coach.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080620.wsptjays2/GSStory/GlobeSportsBaseball/home

King Ryan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#187640) #
It's going to be funny watching the game today. It's friday so they'll be wearing the old-school uniforms, Cito in the dugout. Is Robbie Alomar still looking for work?
catchdataste - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#187642) #
Free Joe Carter while we're at it!!!!
China fan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#187644) #
  And don't blame it all on Ricciardi.   I see Godfrey's hand behind this, and I think it's Godfrey who is truly desperate.  It was Godfrey who hitched his star to JP's wagon a long time ago.  If JP bites the dust, Godfrey bites the dust.  So he allows Ricciardi to fire his manager for a 3rd time.  It allows Ricciardi and Godfrey to keep their jobs for another few months.  And if it attracts more publicity for the team, more attention and more attendance from Cito's old fan club, it could help the team's financial picture for the rest of this year, which helps Godfrey stay alive.   Godfrey has been a political schemer and manipulator since the 1980s, and I think he is pulling the strings on this one.
Pistol - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#187651) #
New thread for discussion of the coaching changes.
greenfrog - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#187653) #
"We're putting the band back together"--Blues Brothers (1980)
TDIB 20 June 2008: Don't Call it a Comeback. | 30 comments | Create New Account
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