Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - 19 June 2008

19 June 2008 - Six Words

Milwaukee decided to use pitching and base running along with the long ball to beat the Jays last night, leaving Greg Zaun a deeply deeply unhappy man.

After about the fifth last night I figured the game was probably over and got more interested in coming up with Jays related Six Word Memoirs.

Jays
'Recurringly and thoroughly mediocre baseball team'

Frasor
'No stranger to his Manager's doghouse'

MacDonald
'Good with glove, not with bat'

Doc
'strike strike groundball, strike strike groundball'

Overbay
'hits doubles and sometimes a homer'

Rios
'Started promisingly, recently has gone astray'

Marcum
'Showed his potential early against tejada'

JP
'From Oakland; but no Billy Beane'

Eckstein
'little man, big job to do'

Barajas
'Big belly, big bat, big numbers'

Stewart
'A shadow of his former self'

Burnett
'Long on talent, short on results'

Litsch
'Considerably better than we were expecting'

Downs
'Much more than just a LOOGY'

Gibby
'Grimly smiling, as the sword dangles?'

Stairs
'Loves hockey but better at baseball'

Lind
'Lurking in Syracuse, dreaming of freedom'

Wells
'Ability unquestioned, attitude almost constantly questioned'

Godfrey
'Loyal it seems to a fault'

Rogers Center
'Rather concretey, but keeps us dry'

Game Day: Businessman's special as Bye Bye Burnett takes on old friend Dave Bush: 2:05 ET.

Posted by Gwyn on Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 01:57 AM EDT.

19 June 2008 - Six Words | 116 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Magpie - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:28 AM EDT (#187461) #

Blue Jays Fan:

Ready to set building on fire.

Magpie - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:48 AM EDT (#187462) #

Ricciardi was on with Wilner tonight and someone asked him if he was interested in Adam Dunn.

Adam Dunn, of course, is exactly what this offense needs. If you were to computer design a solution to what ails the Toronto offense, the computer would surely suggest a LH bat who has hit at least 40 HRs in each of the past four seasons and is on pace to make it five in a row; a guy who gets on base more often than anyone on the current roster; and, best of all, a guy who strikes out almost 200 times a year and as a result almost never hits into a double play (only 2 GDP this year, and just 52 in more than 1000 career games.)

Here's what the General Manager had to say about that idea:

Let me ask you something: what do you know about Adam Dunn? ... He's a great hitter? He's a lifetime .230-.240 hitter, who strikes out a ton and hits home runs.... You know the guy doesn't really like baseball that much? ... Do you know the guy doesn't have a passion to play the game that much? How much do you know about the player? There's a reason you're attracted to some players and there's a reason why you're not attracted to some players. I don't think you'd be very happy if we brought Adam Dunn here. I think you'd be one of the guys calling me on Wednesday night complaining about all the deficiencies the guy has. .. We've done our homework on guys like Adam Dunn and there's a reason why we don't want Adam Dunn. And I don't want to get into specifics but we've done our homework on a lot of the guys that you guys keep mentioning to us. We're way ahead of you guys in looking at the things and there's a lot of things and a lot of reasons why we wouldn't go get those guys. I appreciate, you know, the advice to go get these guys but we know more about them than maybe the average fan does.

What the hell?

There is no shortage of people who have a passion for the game. I personally know a few. Who the hell cares? There's a real serious shortage of people who you absolutely know can hit 40 home runs in the major leagues this year ( And the year after that and the year after that, now that you mention it.) If the GM doesn't understand which of these two qualities his team needs, at this moment in particular, but as a rule in general, then Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here. We are well and truly DOOMED.

Oh, I give up. This is so mind-numbingly stupid that I want to think he doesn't believe it himself and only wants to kill any discussion before it starts. Maybe he already asked about Dunn and the Reds asked for McGowan. I don't think I'd trade McGowan for three months of Adam Dunn...

Magpie - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:58 AM EDT (#187463) #

Meanwhile, the Blue Jays hit into two more double plays last night. That makes 84 GIDPs in just 73 games. This team has an excellent chance to make some history. They're on pace to hit into 186 double plays, which would surpass, and then some, the major league record of 174, established by the 1990 Boston Red Sox.

Those Red Sox led the AL in both BAVG and OBP, and like this year's Jays, they did not strike out - they had just 795 Ks on the year. As you might expect, they were a largely right-handed hitting team (just two regulars batted LH, Boggs and Greenwell); only one player (Tom Brunansky with 105) struck out more than 82 times.

And so, despite leading the league in BAVG and OBP, and being 3rd in the league in SLG - they were seventh (almost exactly league average) in actually scoring runs.

Ron - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:23 AM EDT (#187464) #

I haven't listened to one single WWJP this season. The reason I stopped was because it was obvious JP feels contempt towards Joe Six Pack Blue Jays fan. Now granted, there were truly some morons that called in, but there were also intelligent callers that brought up good points. JP would just play the "I'm a GM in MLB and you're just a lowly fan/outsider so you don't know what's really going on" card. Assuming everything in the post above did take place, it looks like nothing has changed. I wonder if Wilner is still doing his usual ass kissing and basically agreeing with everything JP says.

I've never said this before about anybody in professional sports, but the day JP gets fired is the day I'm going to celebrate.

Oh by the way, I really enjoy having Darren Fletcher in the booth. It's like watching the game with a good buddy who knows a lot about baseball.

Magpie - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:45 AM EDT (#187465) #

I didn't hear it as it happened, I read about it on Wilner's blog and clicked the link to hear for myself. Wilner himself writes:

despite the fact that Dunn doesn�t like playing baseball, he�s awfully good at the hitting home runs part, which would make him a fine addition, I think.

The_Game - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 06:34 AM EDT (#187466) #

Shannon Stewart and Brad Wilkerson over Adam Lind.

Matt Stairs and Kevin Mench over Frank Thomas.

The refusal to sign Barry Bonds for reasons of clubhouse chemistry and not wanting to sell souls. The best hitter in the majors isn't on the team for that reason? It's just silly.

The refusal to trade for Adam Dunn because he doesn�t like baseball. Which is ridiculous I should add�I don�t care what a player�s attitude is as long as he hits 40 HR with a .900 OPS. I�m sure he�ll take his pay check whether he likes playing or not.

These are all failures involving the offense that JP had control over (except possibly the Bonds situation, I look towards Godfrey there). It wasn�t just the slumps of Rios, Overbay, Hill, and Wells that have led to the abysmal offense. It�s also the major mistakes that JP has refused to rectify. His excuse for Lind not being here� well I�m not sure he actually has one that makes sense anymore. I used to be in favour of letting him stay around as I considered him to be a slightly above average GM, but there are just too many nonsensical things going on in this organization. He needs to be let go.

Anyway, knowing that what I just said isn�t very likely to happen, I do think he's going to replace Gibbons if they lose tomorrow. And I think Cito could very well be the replacement.

John Northey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 08:21 AM EDT (#187468) #

Actually, I think the real reason he doesn't want Dunn is fairly simple. $13 million this year, free agent in the offseason, full no-trade clause until June 15th plus limited no-trade clause after that. Too expensive, too hard to get (no-trade clauses are nightmares as JP knows all too well), and probably too expensive in prospects as well. I'd prefer if he said something along the lines of "we've thought about him but between his contract running out at the end of the year plus his no-trade clause plus what Cincinnati wants for him it just doesn't make sense" but I think JP is someone who just gets sick of dealing with anyone who questions him.

I personally wouldn't dump JP at this point. Give him the rest of the season and then decide during September what is the best option and if he is to be dumped move very quickly to replace him before the playoffs are over.

Barry Bonnell - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 08:42 AM EDT (#187469) #

Forget the Dunn comment the main thing I got from J.P last night is that Gibby is going to be fired very very soon unless things change very quickly. In the past when callers said that Gibby should be fired J.P always defended him and said he wouldn't be fired. Last night when people brought up firing Gibbons J.P neatly avoided the question and didn't go out of his way to defend him. The end is nigh.

Barry Bonnell - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#187470) #

J.P rips Dunn.

Dunn in Toronto with the Reds next week.

Anyone think J.P's comments inspire him to go off on the Jays?

Couldn't J.P have ripped him after the series?

Four Seamer - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 09:05 AM EDT (#187471) #

Stay classy, J.P.

Pistol - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#187472) #

Me:
One run deficit - time for bed
Runner on first, double play next
Dunn sucks; Jays in last place
No hope with this team's management

I don't have a sense for Gibbons' job status, but my general rule of thumb is that if a GM chooses two managers and then fires those two managers there's no reason why the GM should be around to choose a third manager. (I was always amazed at the ability of Bobby Clarke to keep doing this). If Gibbons goes Ricciardi has no reason to stick around as he's saying he made a mistake twice with one of his most important decisions.

Ryan Day - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#187473) #

He makes one good point: If the Jays acquired Dunn, Ricciardi would be getting all the complaints about how he only ever hits solo home runs, then strikes out with the bases loaded when it really means something.

(See also: Delgado, Carlos.)

Jevant - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#187474) #

This is so strange...because Dunn seems like EXACTLY the type of player we all thought Riccardi was into. Apparently we were wrong. Unless you're right, and he doesn't believe it himself.

To be honest, I'm losing faith in the GM, for comments such as these and comments such as "we made our bed with Rios, Wells, Rolen and Overbay, and those are the guys that are going to get us through this" or something like that. If that is the best JP can do (which he seems to indicate it is), it is clear that that isn't good enough and we need to bring in someone who will at least TRY to do better.

greenfrog - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#187477) #

I used to find WWJP (occasionally) refreshing, but it has clearly become tiresome, even embarrassing. On the one hand, JP continually says that management has inside information about players that isn't available to the average fan. On the other hand, he berates fans for their suggestions (some of which are admittedly useless--like Litsch for Juan Pierre), and aggressively challenges them to improve upon the current management's approach.

The whole thing is so dumb. I actually don't care if JP goes on the radio every week. I would rather he manage the organization effectively (he seems to do more harm than good when he opens his mouth). And those comments about Dunn will surely get back to the player. Where is the value in that, apart from establishing that (1) JP consistently lacks discretion, and (2) the Jays front office is totally inept when it comes to managing player contracts, signings, potential trades and other transactions?

Mike Green - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#187478) #

The 90 Red Sox were really, really slow. The 33 year old Tony Pena, Carlos Quintana, Wade Boggs, Mike Greenwell, Tom Brunansky and a 38 year old Dwight Evans. Ellis Burks had some speed when he was young, and after that you had Jody Reed and Luis Rivera. Of course, they won the division behind Roger Clemens.

The GIDPs are really irritating. This team doesn't that many runners on base, doesn't hit that many ground balls (just about league average) and isn't that slow.

Mike Green - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#187480) #

Here's the BTF link.

Stay classy, JP.

Stay? How about leaving with grace?

timpinder - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#187481) #

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I'd be very happy to see the Jays go into "sell" mode right now and actively dangle Burnett, Stairs, Zaun and/or Barajas, Eckstein, and a couple of relievers. I'd also dangle Overbay and see if he could net a decent return, then move Lind to 1B and see what Snider shows in LF in September, assuming he's still hitting well in AA or AAA. I'd also listen on Rolen and Ryan. In my opinion, this team isn't getting to the playoffs this year and it's time to rebuild.

Helpmates - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#187483) #

Amen, timpinder. The organization has essentially been playing Lind out of position ever since they signed him; I've oftentimes wondered where this has had an adverse affect on his performance at the plate. Two or three years from now (perhaps) you're looking at Lind at first, Snider in left and Cooper at DH...or perhaps all three of those guys taking turns at DH.

Squiggy - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#187484) #

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I'd be very happy to see the Jays go into "sell" mode right now and actively dangle Burnett, Stairs, Zaun and/or Barajas, Eckstein, and a couple of relievers.

Same here... although I don't think it is pessimism as much as realism. Looking at standings (7th in WC, 8GB), BP playoff odds (5%), and what my eyes tell me (ugh) - it doesn't present a great picture. Sure they could rip off an 8-game win streak and get right back in it. But so could any of the other teams. And the Tigers and Yankees are doing just that right now. I am still rooting for them to win every game, but there are some opportunities to make hay with trades for MLB-ready talent. Just look at what Texas got for a washed up Gagne last year. Although I am not a JP booster, he seems like he would be a good deadline dealer - although there is no prior evidence one way or another.

Four Seamer - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#187485) #

Upon further reflection, perhaps JP is onto something. After seven years' exposure to this gentleman, I too have very little interest in baseball, at least the sort that's played most nights by the home nine. If he has a similar effect on Dunn, he'll be ready to hang up his cleats by September.

The_Game - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#187486) #

And sure enough, Adam Dunn responds in a way that makes him seem like he cares about baseball: http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog/2008/06/19/dunn_i_dont_know_the_clown

There's certainly never a lack of controversy in Toronto every year, atleast we can say that for this mediocre organization.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#187487) #

And sure enough, Adam Dunn responds in a way that makes him seem like he cares about baseball: http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog/2008/06/19/dunn_i_dont_know_the_clown

There's certainly never a lack of controversy in Toronto every year, atleast we can say that for this mediocre organization.

Aside from the obviously justified response to what JP said, something that struck me is how many references there are to Toronto being located in some far-off area: he's not even in our country, this guy's in another country talking ****, whatever SportsCenter they have on up there. It just reinforces how big of a hurdle it can be in baseball to bring free agents up here.

I'm not saying that as at all related to JP - it's more in relation to some of the comments that come out around free agency time where consensus seems to be that getting an American to come to Toronto is no big deal.

The_Game - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#187488) #

I live in the US 9 months of the year. Most Americans I've met are totally ignorant about Canada, so why would baseball players be any different?

krose - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#187489) #

JP has done a great job of deflecting attention from AJ!

owen - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#187490) #

Said Dunn:

I�m not converting my dollars into looneys and twoneys just yet.

His knowledge of Canada isn't that bad. That's actually ... well ... that's pretty impressive!

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#187491) #

I live in the US 9 months of the year. Most Americans I've met are totally ignorant about Canada, so why would baseball players be any different?

Strange - I have a rather different experience where Americans have a very comfortable level of knowledge of Canada and have no more ignorance than the general Canadian (those annual Globe & Mail surveys and the results they show always surprise the hell out of me as to how little Canadians know about their own country).

However, psychologically, the border is looked at as a huge barrier. It's not too dissimilar to Yonge Street dividing the East and West of Toronto and how rare it is for people to move from one side to the other (at least in my day as a Canadian). It's not due to ignorance, just that it seems to be a big comfort barrier to overcome.

Dan Daoust - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#187492) #

And now the M's have fired their manager.

See? It's allowed.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#187494) #

At least now we know that Dunn will never sign with the Jays. Great. Thanks, JP.

Heraclitus - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#187496) #

From a detached, objective standpoint, wouldn't it be pretty cool if the Jays did nothing, just to act as a lab test to see if all these things do even out over the course of a season?

Ron - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#187497) #

Aside from the obviously justified response to what JP said, something that struck me is how many references there are to Toronto being located in some far-off area: he's not even in our country, this guy's in another country talking ****, whatever SportsCenter they have on up there. It just reinforces how big of a hurdle it can be in baseball to bring free agents up here.

Name one 1 free agent in the past 7 years that turned down the chance to sign with the Jays mainly because they are located in Canada? If a free agent didn't sign with the Jays, it's not because they are located in Canada, it's because they were offered more years/money, better team, and/or more playing time elsewhere. JP was asked if there was a Canadian stigma out there last season and he said no. If there was, he said top free agents such as Ryan, AJ, and Thomas would have never signed with the Jays. The only player that I could think that had some doubts about Canada was Matt Clement and he later signed with the Cubs because he thought they had a great chance to win.

Finally got a chance to listen to the whole WWJP segment. Not only did JP bury Dunn, he also spat on his casket. It's very strange to hear a General Manager tee off on a player he doesn't even know personally in public. JP "What do you know about Adam Dunn?" "I don't think you would be very happy if we brought in Adam Dunn" "We have done our homework on guys like Adam Dunn and there's a reason we don't want Adam Dunn ..... we are way ahead of you guys on looking at things..." From this point foward, I say we never question a move JP makes because he is an insider and has done his homework while us lowly fans don't have a clue what we are talking about.

I got a chuckle when the first caller said "we're basically going to be out of it by the all-star break". Did this guy look at the standings? The Jays are 10 games back in the division (last place in the division) and 8 games back in the wildcard (6 teams ahead). In 2004 the WC winner had 98 wins, 2005 had 95, 2006 had 95, 2007 had 94 wins. Even if you take the lowest number of the group, the Jays would have to go 59-30 the rest of the season. Even if the Jays started a 20 game winning streak today, they would still have to finish 9 games over .500 the rest of the season to get to that mark. The Jays are already playing meaningless games and it's only June. The odds of the Jays making the playoffs are .00000000001%

westcoast dude - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#187498) #

Ricciardi, clean out your desk and there's a cab waiting at the front door. Was this a time bomb planted by the A's?

Mike Green - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#187499) #

My six words:

Bush throws a perfect game- Zen.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#187503) #

Russell Branyan has more homeruns than anyone on the Jays. He has 61 at-bats.

Four Seamer - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#187504) #

Russell Branyan has more homeruns than anyone on the Jays. He has 61 at-bats.

Those homeruns sound impressive, but with only 61 at-bats, it's obvious he doesn't like to play baseball very much.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#187505) #

Name one 1 free agent in the past 7 years that turned down the chance to sign with the Jays mainly because they are located in Canada?

How in hell could I possibly answer that question? I'm not an agent, I'm not related to many ballplayers, how do you expect me to know what goes into a player's decision. Your next sentence is filled with a bunch of nice hypotheses as to how players make their decisions, but that's all they are - no different than what I posted.

What I can tell you however is that the Toronto area had one high profile athlete just a few short years ago ask to get out of Toronto because he didn't want his kids being educated in Canada. If you think there is no one like Antonio Davis in baseball, I think you're being incredibly unrealistic.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#187506) #

Bush throws a perfect game- Zen.

Fans happy: none left on base.

christaylor - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#187507) #

The od ds of the Jays making the playoffs are .00000000001%

Not according to baseball prospectus.

Frank Markotich - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#187509) #

My six words:

Butterfield interim manager for Pirates series.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#187510) #

I am not watching the game.

Bot 5th: Milwaukee - P. Fielder hit an inside the park home run to deep right

This is a joke, right? Someone's screwing with me.

Frank Markotich - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#187511) #

Where was Rios - playing with his toy helicopter?

Helpmates - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#187512) #

Judging from his performance this afternoon, it would appear as though AJ is in full-on "who gives a flying @%#!" mode.

Nick Holmes - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#187513) #

Bot 5th: Milwaukee - P. Fielder hit an inside the park home run to deep right

Listening to the Fan, it sounded like the ball wedged under the padding at the wall & Rios didn't pull it out to throw into the infield. I guess he thought it was a ground rule double.
I wonder if AJ will injure anyone in the dugout now.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#187514) #

I wonder if AJ will injure anyone in the dugout now.

Hopefully himself.

the mick - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#187515) #

Dunn does strike out a lot. His BA is low. And his OPS is almost 100 points higher than anyone on the Jays. It's...it's just unnecessary.

IceCreamJonsey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#187516) #

Hahaha, wow, so J.P. pissed off one of the best sluggers in the game that we could definitely use for no other reason than to shut up a caller on a radio show. Unbelievable.

92-93 - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#187517) #

The Fielder insider was just flat out ridiculous, and basically summed up Alex Rios' season. Thankfully he loves playing the game though and they locked him up for 6 years.

"Butterfield interim manager for Pirates series."

I agree with this. Today's game + JP ignoring the Gibbons issue on last night's WWJP leads me to believe you may be right.

rpriske - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#187518) #

It looks like A.J> is paying for his recent comments today.

Gibbons is leaving him out there to rot.

92-93 - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#187519) #

"I wonder if AJ will injure anyone in the dugout now.

Hopefully himself."

Nononono! Be as frustrated as you want, but I want those 2 draft picks for Burnett. If he gets injured, there's virtually no chance he improves his status to a type A FA.

Frank Markotich - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#187520) #

The crazy thing is there's a lot of time left in the season and the Jays can still get back in it. Now I'm not delusional enough to think it's likely, but it's possible. Obviously they will have to play much better. Sometimes a managerial change helps (the Cito / Kuenn) effect. May as well try it.

zeppelinkm - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#187521) #

Umm, Mike Green, what do you know that we don't?

With the way Bush has gone for the first 6 innings today, you're essentially a prophet.

FranklyScarlet - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#187522) #

Fielder's ITPHR was exactly that....the ball was wedged under the fence was completely visible and competely accessible to Rios.
He motioned with his hands GRD....and then stood with his back to the field looking at the ball.
He looked at the line umpire rushing his way and finally observed he was making no call.
Then he looked at the basepaths and saw Fielder chugging towards third after standng on 2nd for a bit.
Then he decided to pick it up and play it, just in case.

Completely unbelievable.

I agree that after this disaster, a change will be made tonight.

Ron - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#187523) #

How in hell could I possibly answer that question? I'm not an agent, I'm not related to many ballplayers, how do you expect me to know what goes into a player's decision. Your next sentence is filled with a bunch of nice hypotheses as to how players make their decisions, but that's all they are - no different than what I posted.

What I can tell you however is that the Toronto area had one high profile athlete just a few short years ago ask to get out of Toronto because he didn't want his kids being educated in Canada. If you think there is no one like Antonio Davis in baseball, I think you're being incredibly unrealistic.

I mentioned JP said there was no Canadian stigma out there. While we are outsiders, he has direct contact with players and agents. If you don't know what goes into a player's decision than how would you know signing in Toronto is a big hurdle for free agent players in baseball? There's is clear cut evidence of free agents in demand signing in Toronto (AJ, Ryan, Thomas) while no evidence of a player not signing because the Jays are located in Toronto.

Don't even get me started on the NBA......... we use to have the Grizzlies here and boy oh boy there are a lot complainers and idiots in that league. I still remember before the draft when Stephon Marbury thought Vancouver was close to Russia and how Tony Massenburg said certain players didn't like playing in Canada because there was no ESPN and some of their favorite cereals weren't in the Supermarkets. I haven't heard a current or former Blue Jay complain about such things.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#187524) #

A walk for Zaun. Small victory.

Hey, this six-word thing is fun.

So, did Gibbons just Roy Burnett?

rpriske - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#187525) #

At this point I am cheering for Bush.

Get that no-no big guy!

smcs - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#187526) #

According to the Official Ground Rules of Major League Baseball, a ball that gets stuck in the padding at the Rogers Centre is automatically 2 bases. However, there is no mention of any ground rules regarding balls getting stuck in the wall at Miller Park.

This game today is upsetting, to say the least. No matter how bad you feel about it, John Gibbons feels much much worse.

IceCreamJonsey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#187527) #

Gibbons, assuming he is here by then, will get to re-shuffle his pitching rotation thanks to the All-Star break, right? I mean, he has to make Burnett the #5 guy and skip his starts when possible. We obviously have to go Halladay-Marcum as one-two and get them the most starts, but Burnett has just been horrible for a while now, and I would hope they would re-adjust the rotation to reflect it.

Skipping his #5 guy's starts when possible was not something McLaren could quite figure out, and he just got fired. Gibbons is bright enough to do it, I just hope he takes advantage of the layoff to set things up correctly.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#187528) #

If you don't know what goes into a player's decision than how would you know signing in Toronto is a big hurdle for free agent players in baseball?

Because I do cross-border recruiting in other industries with high-paid professionals (high 6, low 7 figures) and it's an issue there. And because I am a person who has crossed the border (albeit in the other direction).

I mentioned JP said there was no Canadian stigma out there.

And this is a reliable source?

we use to have the Grizzlies here and boy oh boy there are a lot complainers and idiots in that league. I still remember before the draft when Stephon Marbury thought Vancouver was close to Russia and how Tony Massenburg said certain players didn't like playing in Canada because there was no ESPN and some of their favorite cereals weren't in the Supermarkets. I haven't heard a current or former Blue Jay complain about such things.

Why would you expect there to be a difference in NBA versus MLB players?

John Northey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#187530) #

I should've posted yesterday about how I thought a no-no would happen for some reason during this series - but I thought a Jay would do it, not an ex-Jay. 7 innings in now. Wow. The ESPN GameCast makes it look like there were no real difficult plays so far too.

Well, if we are looking for the lowest point of the season I suspect today (my birthday no less) will be it. A no-no (or near no-no) plus an inside the park home run by Prince Fielder thanks to Rios being asleep at the wheel. Can't get much worse than that - well, unless we see JP trade Snider for Dunn or someone else who is gone after the season.

rpriske - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#187531) #

With the no hitter no longer an issue, I am back to cheering for the Jays.

Time for a big rally after that lead off triple! Let's go!

Jevant - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#187532) #

So much for the no-no. A triple by Lyle, and a single by Rios...what can you do?

lexomatic - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#187534) #

so i haven't read it yet but on the front of ESPN MLB page Jason Stark's rumblings & grumblings column edals with potential GM's available at the end of the season. Cashman is listed among them. I wouldn't be surprised if "Little Boss" lets him go, and if it happens (wishful thinking) i hope the Jays grab him within the hour.

John Northey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#187536) #

OK, is GIbbons trying to be fired? Yes, the Jays are down by 6 but letting the pitcher hit with 2 guys on base after the reliever has thrown 2 innings seems like quite the insult to both the remaining guys in the pen and the hitters on the bench. I mean, how much more clearly could he say 'I give up' than that? If the bases were empty, or if Tallet had thrown just one quick inning I could see it but with 2 guys on and 2 innings into this pitchers game?

To make it even dumber - he just brought in Ryan to pitch! So Tallet hit for himself, in the 8th inning with 2 guys on, just so he could be pulled for BJ!

Now I'm shifting to 'fire Gibbons' as that just takes the cake for stupidity.

parrot11 - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#187537) #

"The od ds of the Jays making the playoffs are .00000000001%

Not according to baseball prospectus."

At this point laughter is all we have. Don't try to ruin that with technicalities. I guess this is a taste of how Knicks fans felt under Isiah. I can only imagine how bad it must have felt for them, but I found it weird that their fans seemed to have a certain humour of the whole situation. I guess I sort of know why.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#187538) #

Because I do cross-border recruiting in other industries with high-paid professionals (high 6, low 7 figures) and it's an issue there. And because I am a person who has crossed the border (albeit in the other direction).

Of course I omitted the two most significant reason: athletes in other sports have cited the destination country to be a major issue; and Adam Dunn's tone, which started the discussion, was of Canada being some exotic and distant locale.

It's funny - every paper in Toronto says Brian Burke is going to want to come back to Toronto because of it's convenient locale, but say baseball players use similar criteria and someone thinks you're out to lunch.

Ron - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#187539) #

Because I do cross-border recruiting in other industries with high-paid professionals (high 6, low 7 figures) and it's an issue there. And because I am a person who has crossed the border (albeit in the other direction).

So you went from "how do you expect me to know what goes into a player's decision. " to the above. You just contradicted yourself. First you said you didn't know what goes into a players decision but now you do know because you do cross-border recruiting with high paid professionals.

And this is a reliable source?

If the General Manager of the Blue Jays isn't a good source whether there is a big hurdle for players playing in Canada who is then? If there's clear cut evidence of a player not signing with the Jays mainly because they play in Toronto, I would love to hear it/see it.

Why would you expect there to be a difference in NBA versus MLB players?

Yes I would but the reason probably isn't allowed to be discussed in Da Box. It's the same reason why there are so many more players that have legal/police incident problems in the NBA as opposed to the NHL despite a much smaller pool of players.

williams_5 - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#187540) #

Honest question: What makes Cashman a great GM? The Yankees, despite their payroll, don't really seem to have that impressive a team, especially with regard to their pitching staff. At the same time, I'm not saying he isn't a good GM, just wondering what is impressive about him.

Four Seamer - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#187541) #

John, I'm not watching the game but Gameday reports that Wilkerson pinch-hit for Tallet. And struck out, which I guess was a given considering that the double play was not in order.

Mike Green - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#187543) #

Now that I think about it, it would be even more appropriate for the Jays to stage a remarkable ninth inning comeback, but fall a run short.

Jevant - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#187544) #

Unbelievably, Mike, you just might be right.

Inglett Grand Slam, 8-7.

Bailey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#187545) #

Well, Inglett just hit a grand slam so they are down by 1 and have 2 outs in the 9th.

FranklyScarlet - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#187546) #

This is too unbelieveable. Inglett.

Mike Green - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#187547) #

For the record, that was posted before Eckstein's walk and Inglett's grand slam.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#187548) #

Now that I think about it, it would be even more appropriate for the Jays to stage a remarkable ninth inning comeback, but fall a run short.

It is absolutely incredible how often has happened the last two years. There is no chance whatsoever that the Jays actually tie the game, of course, but they love to tease us.

tstaddon - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#187549) #

8 - 7?

Boy, oh, boy did J.P. make the baseball gods angry last night.

Rich - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#187550) #

Ricciardi is a spectacularly average GM. For every smart move he's made in the past 7 years, and there certainly have been some, he's made an equally poor decision. The club is simply spinning its wheels. We have plenty of evidence to tell us that there is almost no chance of a JP-led team being able to successfully contend for a championship. Billy Beane he is not and never will be.

It's time for Ted Rogers and Paul Godfrey to acknowledge that they handed the keys to a mediocrity and that the fans deserve better. When JP was hired Godfrey crowed about his plan. Since that time we've seen a new strategy almost every year, with equally middling results. It's time for the organization to move on. I've been a fan for 25 years and this club has brought me to the worst possible place - indifference. I can accept rebuilding if it looks as though the team will improve, but sadly I simply don't see this happening.

tstaddon - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#187551) #

"R Barajas reached on infield single to second."

OK, now this is really getting weird.

Jevant - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#187552) #

But yet, despite all that, an all-too-familiar ending. Another L.

owen - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#187553) #

That comeback probably protects Gibby's job for another few weeks ...

Jevant - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#187554) #

In the spirit of the original thread:

The one run loss that wasn't.

westcoast dude - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#187556) #

Another Jays' loss, not without drama.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#187557) #

So you went from "how do you expect me to know what goes into a player's decision. " to the above. You just contradicted yourself. First you said you didn't know what goes into a players decision but now you do know because you do cross-border recruiting with high paid professionals.

No - I am not contradicting myself. I do not know what goes into the decision process for specific players (i.e. a player). I do know that location is a key factor for a significant percentage of high-paid professionals.

If the General Manager of the Blue Jays isn't a good source whether there is a big hurdle for players playing in Canada who is then? If there's clear cut evidence of a player not signing with the Jays mainly because they play in Toronto, I would love to hear it/see it.

Just because there is no other source more reliable does not mean that a source is reliable. Is there anyone on here who can tell me what color God's hair is? I say it's blue. There is no source more reliable than me, so God's hair color must be blue.

And I did just think of someone specific - Greg Maddux - he wanted to stay in the LA / San Diego corridor. That did exclude a lot of other teams as well - however, outside of Roy Halladay, I can't think of a Blue Jay in a while that preferred the locale of Toronto to the exclusion of all other baseball markets, while there are many ballplayers that go the other way.

I'm still stunned at how this is a topic with some degree of question - are you telling me location plays no part in where you currently decide to work?

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#187560) #

No - I am not contradicting myself. I do not know what goes into the decision process for specific players (i.e. a player). I do know that location is a key factor for a significant percentage of high-paid professionals.

I realize I may not have been clear here - the question was to name one specific player who chose not to sign with Toronto due to location. Without specifically talking to a player, I can't speak for how they made their own decision. However, of all baseball players, I can say with certainty there is a significant percentage (probably in the 50+% range of American ballplayers) that would choose to play in a locale closer to their own home versus moving to Toronto.

It's like I know that if you toss a coin 20 times, you're most likely going to toss somewhere between 8-12 heads. I have no idea which specific coin tosses will turn up heads though.

John Northey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#187561) #

Well, that is what I get for watching on ESPN rather than on the Jays web site. ESPN had Tallet batting and striking out via their version of GameDay (MLB's didn't work for me for some reason today). Glad to hear Gibbons hasn't lost all signs of giving a darn. What is also funny is ESPN also showed 3 out in the 9th with an 8-3 score iirc so I closed the window. Sheesh, I missed out on the pain...er...fun of watching the Jays almost pull one off. Makes one wonder what would've happened if AJ was pulled after 4 like McGowan was.

Sigh. This team is just sooooo frustrating.

92-93 - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#187563) #

"Makes one wonder what would've happened if AJ was pulled after 4 like McGowan was."

Or if Rios didn't have a lackadaisical approach to the game?

John Northey - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#187564) #

Players who picked other cities over Toronto despite similar, if not more, money from Toronto include Lilly, Menche and (way back) Al Leiter, Cliff Johnson (which got us Tom Henke as compensation iirc) and (thankfully) Storm Davis. That is off the top of my head.

Glevin - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#187566) #

"Players who picked other cities over Toronto despite similar, if not more, money from Toronto include Lilly, Menche and (way back) Al Leiter, Cliff Johnson (which got us Tom Henke as compensation iirc) and (thankfully) Storm Davis."

That's assuming that their reasons were all because Toronto is in Canada. Maybe they felt the Jays were not a contender and the other team was? Maybe they had a good connection with a particular coach on another team? Maybe they wanted to be closer to where they were before so they didn't have to move their kids?

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#187567) #

Maybe they wanted to be closer to where they were before so they didn't have to move their kids?

If this is a legitimate statement, how can you say that you don't think people reject moving to Toronto because of its location.

You can just as easily say ...

Maybe they want their kids to live closer to both sets of grandparents.

Do you really think Toronto is anywhere but the bottom of the list as far as convenient for most American baseball families?

scottt - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#187569) #

Why would you expect there to be a difference in NBA versus MLB players?

Baseball is played from April to September. You don't have to relocate for that. Derek Jeter officially lives in Florida--less taxes.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#187570) #

Baseball is played from April to September. You don't have to relocate for that.

Ever been on a 6-month engagement away from home? It sucks. To say you don't have to relocate for that is not true.

Official residency and the Jeter are example aren't great. Essentially if you buy a house in Florida and get a driver's license there (both not difficult to do for baseball players) and you can be considered an official resident of Florida.

Paul D - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#187571) #

I just wanted to add that I don't believe that Toronto has anymore problems attracting players than most MLB teams. It was mentioned not to use this as an excuse in the off season, but I thought I'd say it now - I don't believe that the location/city/country causes the Blue Jays problems in signing free agents. I have yet to see any evidence, and there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#187573) #

China fan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#187574) #

Why would you expect there to be a difference in NBA versus MLB players? Yes I would but the reason probably isn't allowed to be discussed in Da Box. It's the same reason why there are so many more players that have legal/police incident problems in the NBA as opposed to the NHL despite a much smaller pool of players.

Ron, you seem to have some interesting racial theories. Instead of hiding behind the claim that you are "not allowed" to discuss them, why not tell us your views so that we can openly debate them? An insidious nod-and-wink approach is merely allowing you to hide your views from open criticism.
If I have misinterpreted your little hints, this is your opportunity to clarify what you meant.

owen - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#187575) #

Do you think the Leafs have an advantage signing free agents because of their location in Toronto?

For the most part in this discussion I agree with you CJF - I think that being located in Canada is a disadvantage in the Jays' annual free agent hunts.

But as for the Maple Leafs, they are a dubious example of a team benefiting from their 'location.' If the Leafs benefit it is not because they are located in Toronto, but because they are the team of English speaking Canadians, and English speaking Canadians are the single largest demographic of NHL players. Meaning that the Leafs are the home team for a plurality of players. I don't think that's the same as the 'location' argument, regarding cultural differences, border-crossing, proximity to grandparents, etc.

Furthermore, I don't really think there is much evidence to show that the Leafs have an edge in attracting significant Free Agents. The Leafs are able to attract aging veterans who want to finish their careers in Toronto, but we don't see many English Canadian stars - or any stars, period - spending their prime years in Toronto. More often, the Leafs struggle to put any sort of successful product on the ice. In fact, I have heard complaints that when players hear "Toronto" they see dollar signs and therefore expect MORE money than the Leafs are prepared to pay. And I would bet that the same argument is used in cities like New York and LA when the general manager can't lure the big free agent baseball player (though I don't know if this is actually true).

Ultimately, I think each team has its own challenges to overcome in attracting free agents. It may well be true that sometimes big money teams have to live up to their own big money reputations. Canadian teams probably have to overcome cultural barriers (and no doubt this was true for the Montreal Expos, especially in the hyperpoliticized environment of the 1970s). Losing teams like the Royals and Pirates have to deal with the fact that they seriously suck every single year. West Coast guys many not want to move to the East Coast, and vice versa. Some guys desperately want to avoid playing in large markets like New York and Boston because of the pressure.

It would seriously surprise me if certain free agents weren't at least a little put off about the idea of spending a large chunk of their year in a different country. But I don't think that it is anything that a bunch of money and/or a winning ballclub can't assuage, if not cure. I don't see how the Jays don't have it worse than x number of other teams.

Glevin - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#187576) #

"Maybe they wanted to be closer to where they were before so they didn't have to move their kids?

If this is a legitimate statement, how can you say that you don't think people reject moving to Toronto because of its location."

Probably, but as most MLB players are from Cal, Tex, and FLa, going to say Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, Milwaukee, Seattle, and many other cities are at a disadvantage. It's not a Toronto-specific disadvantage. It's not that Toronto is at a disadvantage, it's that teams in Florida, So-Cal, and Texas are at an advantage in attracting players.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#187577) #

Probably, but as most MLB players are from Cal, Tex, and FLa, going to say Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, Milwaukee, Seattle, and many other cities are at a disadvantage. It's not a Toronto-specific disadvantage. It's not that Toronto is at a disadvantage, it's that teams in Florida, So-Cal, and Texas are at an advantage in attracting players.

Glevin and Owen, I agree with what each of you wrote.

Glevin's statement above is essentially what I was trying to say with the Leafs example - the Jays are the complete opposite end of the spectrum of the Leafs (and not alone in this category, as Owen listed). Rob Ducey and Paul Spoljaric are the only two players that come to mind as growing up in the Greater Toronto area and thus would be likely to want to prefer to be in that area. Most other teams (especially those in the states listed by Glevin) have a lot more players with closer ties.

But I don't think that it is anything that a bunch of money and/or a winning ballclub can't assuage, if not cure. I don't see how the Jays don't have it worse than x number of other teams.

I agree with this, I just think x is pretty small - probably around 5 or so.

parrot11 - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 07:47 PM EDT (#187578) #

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 08:12 PM EDT (#187579) #

But CJF, the attitudes of Canadians and Americans in regards to living on the other side of the border are not the same and don't both share the same reluctance of living inside another country. How many hockey players have moved permanently to the States after their careers are finished? How many baseball or basketball players have done the same after finished playing for the Jays or Raptors? In essense, there's a completely different attitude to the whole thing.

I have no data / numbers / figures to argue with this, so I can't say with any backing at all. However, my gut is that rich Canadians are entirely more open to move to the US than rich Americans are to moving to Canada.

This is solely based on comparing the number of Americans I worked with while in Toronto (always the exception, usually no more than 5% or so) versus the number of Canadians that I work with while in the US (fluctuates around 10-15%, give or take - it seems to have steadily increased about the last 5 years, surprisingly based on media coverage of politics).

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#187580) #

I have no data / numbers / figures to argue with this, so I can't say with any backing at all. However, my gut is that rich Canadians are entirely more open to move to the US than rich Americans are to moving to Canada.

This is solely based on comparing the number of Americans I worked with while in Toronto (always the exception, usually no more than 5% or so) versus the number of Canadians that I work with while in the US (fluctuates around 10-15%, give or take - it seems to have steadily increased about the last 5 years, surprisingly based on media coverage of politics).

I'm sorry - that comes across as incredibly arrogant due to my perhaps implying something I didn't mean to. When I wrote the above about rich Americans versus Canadians that wasn't meant to imply that I, or the people I work with, are rich. The first sentence related to my gut feeling, which is that among the rich, I think there is more movement South. The second was simply the closest representative sample I have - and that is among the professionals I work with, where entry level is post-MBA.

christaylor - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#187584) #

I thought I was being funny, but I think snark is funny so... but I do agree laughter is all we have at this point.

Matthew E - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#187585) #

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#187586) #

So, just on a tangent:

If the Jays had miraculously managed to win the game, would that be proof that there are supernatural forces at work who hate David Bush? I mean honestly, take a no-no into the 8th, turn over a 7-run lead to the bullpen in the ninth, and have them blow it. Only to Dave Bush...

Paul D - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:31 PM EDT (#187587) #

Do you think the Leafs have an advantage signing free agents because of their location in Toronto?

No.

Wildrose - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:46 PM EDT (#187588) #

Blair seems to be intimating that Gibbons may well be fired Friday.

Ricciardi will rejoin the team today in Pittsburgh for a three-game series against the Pirates, under increasing pressure to sever ties with manager John Gibbons. Ricciardi would say only that "the team is not playing well" and would not tip his hand beyond that, but sources say he has already been given the go-ahead from club president and chief executive officer Paul Godfrey to fire Gibbons.

Wilner on his blog also feels something may be up, although he thinks the ninth inning near rally might buy Gibby some time.

Ron - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#187589) #

No - I am not contradicting myself. I do not know what goes into the decision process for specific players (i.e. a player). I do know that location is a key factor for a significant percentage of high-paid professionals.

We are going around in circles. I have no doubt location may be a factor for baseball players but the main point we are debating is about how playing in Toronto is a big hurdle for free agent baseball players. Still nobody has provided an example of a free agent not wanting to sign with the Blue Jays with the main reason being they are located in Canada. I wonder if you have even been reading my posts in this thread.

Just because there is no other source more reliable does not mean that a source is reliable. Is there anyone on here who can tell me what color God's hair is? I say it's blue. There is no source more reliable than me, so God's hair color must be blue.

If you feel like the GM of the Blue Jays, a person who directly talks to agents and players, is not a reliable source, than there's not much more I can say.

And I did just think of someone specific - Greg Maddux - he wanted to stay in the LA / San Diego corridor. That did exclude a lot of other teams as well - however, outside of Roy Halladay, I can't think of a Blue Jay in a while that preferred the locale of Toronto to the exclusion of all other baseball markets, while there are many ballplayers that go the other way.

I'm not sure how Greg Maddux wanting to stay around Cali has anything to do with free agents viewing playing in Toronto as a big hurdle. But if you're looking for an example of Blue Jays that have decided to stay long term in Toronto beyond their first 6 club controlled years, Vernon Wells and Alex Rios come to mind. Both decided they don't want to test the market after their 6th season in the majors.

I'm still stunned at how this is a topic with some degree of question

Hey finally something we can agree on. There is no evidence the Jays have lost out on a free agent because the main reason was that the Jays play in Canada. Sure some free agents that the Jays were interested in might have decided to sign with other teams, but it was because of other reasons such as: longer years, more money per year, better chance at winning, etc....

are you telling me location plays no part in where you currently decide to work?

I don't understand how this question is relevant to the discussion.

Ron, you seem to have some interesting racial theories. Instead of hiding behind the claim that you are "not allowed" to discuss them, why not tell us your views so that we can openly debate them? An insidious nod-and-wink approach is merely allowing you to hide your views from open criticism. If I have misinterpreted your little hints, this is your opportunity to clarify what you meant.

If you look at the 3 major professional sports leagues in Canada, I can�t think of a single American free agent that decided the fact they would have to play in Canada as the biggest reason as to why they didn�t want to sign with a Canadian based team. This isn�t true for the NBA. While none of these players were free agents, I can think of 3 players off the top of my head that didn�t want to play for the Grizzlies because they were located in Canada: Doug West, Othella Harrington, and Steve Francis. All 3 weren�t fond of the idea of playing in a Country they knew very little about. Does race play a factor in this? I'm not 100% sure. All I know is that there was never a White American player (granted there are fewer Whites than Blacks by a large margin in the NBA) that complained about playing in Canada.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 19 2008 @ 11:58 PM EDT (#187591) #

Wilner on his blog also feels something may be up, although he thinks the ninth inning near rally might buy Gibby some time.

That is eminently stupid.

Either a guy is right for the job or he isn't. Details like this shouldn't make a lick of difference.

Barry Bonnell - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#187592) #

J.P apologizes to Dunn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3453059

BTW, if the Jays were a successful team with a real shot at the playoffs every year there would be no problem attracting free agents. In the early nineties we had players clamouring to come here. Why? Because we were winners and just as importantly the front office was filled with classy, dignified people.

John Northey - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 12:50 AM EDT (#187595) #

Still nobody has provided an example of a free agent not wanting to sign with the Blue Jays with the main reason being they are located in Canada

Guess Ron doesn't know the story of Storm Davis. He was thinking about signing when the Montreal massacre occurred. His wife saw the coverage and told him no way are we going to Canada, they all speak French up there. Honest. That is what she was reported as saying, and Davis agreeing on it. Sadly search functions for 1989 newspapers from Toronto aren't around and the NY Times doesn't appear to have reported on it (most Americans wouldn't have cared).

Of course Gillick for years said it was a major issue, then Ash did as well. Players sign with teams that are either A) paying silly dollars B) viewed as playoff locks or C) close to home. The Jays don't qualify for B or C (outside of the Canadian players, and not even for many of them) thus making A the only way to beat other teams chasing free agents. Some players also go if players/management they like are at a certain team but the 3 listed before are by far the top reasons from what I've seen and read.

Magpie - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 12:51 AM EDT (#187596) #

quite the insult to both the remaining guys in the pen and the hitters on the bench.

Like they don't have it coming? I wish he'd done it.

VBF - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:37 AM EDT (#187598) #

Let's not forget... the Jays have had a lot worse years than this. Compared to 1995 and 2004, this is a walk in the park. I mean, I'm as frustrated as anybody, and it certainly looks like it's going to be a disappointing year, but by the time October comes around, the Jays will be in the neighbourhood of .500, and that beats a lot of alternatives.

If the year was 1994, I might agree with you. But these guys haven't played truly meaningful baseball in July since 1998? If the Jays are done in a month, this will go down as one of if not the most disappointing Jays team since they won a World Series. As time progresses, being happy with a .500 finish gets more and more ridiculous. Heck, they could finish a couple games out and have an exciting September series and I'd be happy. But anything less is a complete failure.

What sucks the most is that there's still a really great core to this team which shouldn't be changed. The complementary players just flat out stink. I will be severely disappointed if Overbay is on this team next year.

Magpie - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 01:43 AM EDT (#187599) #

What sucks the most is that there's still a really great core to this team which shouldn't be changed. The complementary players just flat out stink.

And my take is almost the opposite - I think the complementary players are perfectly fine, but that's all they have. A whole roster of fine complementary guys. They don't have anyone who's actually really good. Except Doc.

Thomas - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 06:56 AM EDT (#187601) #

And my take is almost the opposite - I think the complementary players are perfectly fine, but that's all they have. A whole roster of fine complementary guys. They don't have anyone who's actually really good. Except Doc.

My take is the exact same as Magpie's. Jesse Litsch is a fine fifth starter. Brian Tallet is a fine second left/occasional long man. McDonald is your typical good-glove no-bat infield backup. Barajas has had a great year as one of the two catchers. I have no problem with Downs or Stairs (who shouldn't be thought of a DH, but more half of the platoon corner outfield spot from which you were expecting the least production). I could go on and on, but the problem isn't that the team needs a big bat or two somewhere on the corners. The complementary guys (numbers somewhere between 11 to 15-25 on the roster are fine). The first 10 or 15 get too shallow too quickly, especially on the offensive side.

Ron, I don't think you can point to JP's lack of public statements about someone not wanting to come to Canada as evidence that nobody does actually prefer to play elsewhere. First of all, that assumes the player's agent is going to tell the GM the honest reason why the player won't sign with Toronto, as opposed to framing it as him wanting more dollars or more years, which he can then use as leverage with the player's favoured destination. Secondly, if I was the GM and was told that someone didn't sign here because they didn't want to come to Toronto, I don't think I would tell the fans that was the reason, because it would simply add to the negativity that surrounds the team (15 years without the playoffs and playing in the AL East). Things are bad enough as is at times without being told every offseason that some player doesn't want to come to Canada.

Thomas - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 07:04 AM EDT (#187602) #

Plus, does anyone remember the Joe Cowley incident? The sportswriter who called Toronto "nothing but a city in a third-world country" and refused to stand for the national anthem? He's obviously an idiot, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that crossing the border can be a psychological barrier for some players. I'm sure it's not a common belief and certainly players who have played in Toronto for a few years, coming through the system, recognize the city for what it is, but there could be a minority out there who view it as one of the least attractive destinations.

Frank Markotich - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 08:22 AM EDT (#187604) #

There was the time some Expos picher (Bryn Smith?) wanted out because his wife couldn't find Hamburger Helper in the local stores.

Paul D - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#187616) #

Joe Crowley's an idiot, and was widely derided as one shortly after the incident.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Toronto has the same opportunity as NYY/M, LAA, LAD, SDP. But, I don't think they're at a disadvantage compared to most - KC, MIL, DET, FLO, TB, etc etc etc.

ChicagoJaysFan - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#187625) #

To be clear, I'm not saying that Toronto has the same opportunity as NYY/M, LAA, LAD, SDP. But, I don't think they're at a disadvantage compared to most - KC, MIL, DET, FLO, TB, etc etc etc.

I'm not sure why you'd put Florida and Tampa as two teams with unfavorable locations. With the number of players that have families in Florida, went to school in that state, or would enjoy living at (or close to) home during Spring Training, I think they've got an incredibly advantageous location. Their problem is money.

parrot11 - Friday, June 20 2008 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#187731) #

I am of the same opinion as Magpie. This core is in all likelihood mediocre. That is why they need to rebuild.

19 June 2008 - Six Words | 116 comments | Create New Account

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