Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

TDIB 05 June 2008

You remember that Simpsons scene when Homer, Bart and Lisa are celebrating in the car after Church, "Its the best time of the week - the longest possible time to more Church!". That's always how I feel when a Yankee series ends, the Jays don't see them again now until the last series before the All Star Break.

A bit of a blah game last night, the Jays never really looked to be in it, or particularly into it, after the first couple of frames. The Yankees got one of Mussina's throwback nights, he really looked pretty good, seemed to have a bit more zip on his pitches than normal and he's somehow now tied for the AL lead in wins - a big no-prize to anyone who saw that coming. For the Jays Litsch's great recent run came to an end, he's been 5-0 with a 1.66 ERA over his last six starts. Jesse didn't look too bad last night, but he was a notch below where's he been recently, and in that area where he's going to need some run support to win. The offense unfortunately didn't come through for him, it was a pretty flat effort all around with only Rios looking lively - maybe he's worried Gibby reads John Brattain's columns.

Game Day: Businessman's special at 1:05. McGowan takes on the struggling Chien Ming Wang.

Posted by Gwyn on Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 12:00 AM EDT.

TDIB 05 June 2008 | 46 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#186545) #

At least I'm off the hook.

See, I put up a mocking graphic making fun of Joba and the Jays win. You never mess with a winning streak, so I put up another graphic making fun of Moose.

You know who's pitching tomorrow, right?

ANationalAcrobat - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 12:28 AM EDT (#186546) #

Vernon won't be representing us at the draft tomorrow: he's starting his rehab early. Source.

Waveburner - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 04:17 AM EDT (#186548) #

Is it even possible to describe Mussina's pitches having more zip? His fastball tops out at 85-86 and sits 82-84. Seriously, as much as I'd like to credit Mussina, the Jays looked asleep at the switch. Especially early they got great hitters counts, watched Mussina groove an 85 mph heater down broadway only to foul it off or actually swing and miss. How can a Major League hitter swing and miss on an 85 mph fastball in an obvious fastball count? Boggles my mind.

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 04:34 AM EDT (#186549) #

How can a Major League hitter swing and miss on an 85 mph fastball in an obvious fastball count?

The same they've been doing it for, oh, the last hundred years.

"Movement and location trump velocity every time."
- Greg Maddux

"Hitting is timing. Pitching is destroying the hitter's timing."
- Warren Spahn

King Ryan - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 04:53 AM EDT (#186551) #

I'm not sure how throwing a fastball in a fastball count qualifies as "destroying ... timing" unless you are implying that Moose was attempting to fool the hitters by throwing a fastball that is abnormally slow.

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:12 AM EDT (#186552) #

I'm not sure how throwing a fastball in a fastball count qualifies as "destroying ... timing"

You don't destroy a hitter's timing with one pitch. You do it with the sequence, you do it with the relationship of this pitch to the one(s) that came before. You do it right and you end up with the hitter's front foot attached to a string which you can yank on at will. It's a fundamental truth of the game. It's what pitching is all about.

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 06:04 AM EDT (#186553) #

Especially early they got great hitters counts

One guy did, exactly once. You have to be thinking of the Stairs AB leading off the second, when Mussina fell behind 3-1 and Stairs fouled off the next four pitches, three of them fastballs before flying out. Those were the first fastballs of the at bat, after four straight off speed pitches.

But that was the only good hitter's count the Jays got from him all night until the very last batter he faced, Stairs again, in the sixth inning. Mussina fell behind 2-0 and got a groundout on a curve.

Aside from those two at bats... well, Scutaro fouled off a couple of 2-1 fastballs (3rd and 6th), Rios took a 2-1 curve for a strike (6th). There were no other 3-1 or 2-0 counts while Mussina was in the game. When you face 23 batters and throw 18 first pitch strikes...

The actual swings-and-misses all came on breaking balls, by the way. Stairs missed a curve in the 2nd, Barajas missed two sliders in the 2nd, Overbay foul tipped a change for strike three in the 4th.

brent - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 06:20 AM EDT (#186554) #

game 60- WPA hero Rios (11) WPA let downs Stairs (15), Litsch (3), Rolen (9), Stewart (13), Wilkerson (6), Eckstein (14)

Mike Green - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#186556) #

Most major league hitters have little trouble with a 92 mph straight fastball down the pike when they know it's coming. Velocity is only one (relatively minor) part of the equation.

Chuck - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#186557) #

Most major league hitters have little trouble with a 92 mph straight fastball down the pike when they know it's coming. Velocity is only one (relatively minor) part of the equation.

Agreed. Just ask Kyle Farnsworth how well his laser-straight 95 MPH fastballs are working out.

Mick Doherty - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#186585) #

a big no-prize to anyone who saw that coming

Would love to take credit for that, but in this year's NYY preview, I simply pointed out that Mussina's Most-Similar by age last year had lost his only start at age 39. Moose, at 9-4 (but 4.01) is clearly already beyond THAT.

Chuck - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#186595) #

Interesting thing about Mussina, he has 13 decisions in 13 starts despite averaging just over 5 innings per start. He is on pace to win 23 games in 170 innings.

Dewey - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#186622) #

Here's a poem by Robert Francis, who understood Spahn's remark:

The Pitcher

His art is eccentricity, his aim
How not to hit the mark he seems to aim at,

His passion how to avoid the obvious,
His technique how to vary the avoidance.

The others throw to be comprehended. He
Throws to be a moment misunderstood.

Yet not too much. Not errant, arrant, wild,
But every seeming aberration willed.

Not to, yet still, still to communicate
Making the batter understand too late.

----Robert Francis

Mike Green - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#186625) #

Ouch.

King Ryan - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#186626) #

I know that Magpie, I was just being snarky. I didn't even see the Mussina game.

I did, however, see that. How many times in his career has BJ Ryan given up an 0-2 homerun to a lefty? Wow...

King Ryan - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#186627) #

I will answer my own question: Never. It has never happened.

Shaker Mo - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#186628) #

Wow. What a "what could have been" road trip. Three walk-off losses in ten games.

Sigh....the life of a Jays fan.

Dr. Zarco - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#186629) #

BJ just doesn't appear to have gotten his command back yet. He still made it work earlier in the year, but it's starting to catch up to him. Up 2 runs with none on and 2 out, you've gotta win that game 100% of the time. Not hang a slider middle in at the belt. How many games have the Jays lost when leading entering the 9th? 5? This continues to be one of the most frustrating teams I've ever rooted for.

Some call me Tim - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#186630) #

You've got to be kidding me! Why couldn't we hold a lead all day? Way to turn a series win into a very depressing series loss.

China fan - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#186631) #

Not to mention the agony of watching the Jays fail to put away the game a half-inning earlier, when they had runners at second and third with none out. A couple of extra insurance runs in the 9th might have been enough to win the game. That was an extremely painful loss.

scottt - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#186637) #

Toughest loss of the year.

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#186644) #

How many times in his career has BJ Ryan given up an 0-2 homerun to a lefty?

You answered your own question, but here's what I'm wondering.

When Mel Ott managed the Giants, any pitcher who gave up a hit - just any old hit, not a game-winning walk-off homer - on an 0-2 count was automatically fined $500.

So, if Mel Ott was still around... adjusting for inflation...

Jdog - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#186646) #

I hate Eckstein's range and weak arm.

scottt - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#186649) #

MacDonald should be back soon and hopefully he'll be used in late innings.

V-Dub is rehabbing now. Ortiz hurt his wrist too and could miss a month. It's going to be interesting to see if Boston can do as well without him as the Jays have done without Wells.

The Jays should do fine in inter-league play with Stairs in left field and Stewart on the bench. I'm looking forward to that.

Maldoff - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#186650) #

Coming into this series, I thought we could win 4 of the 9. Well, we did that, just not in the way I imagined!

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#186651) #

Little known fact. Or trivia question.

Only once has a Blue Jay hit a pinch-hit walkoff home run. (Unless it happened again this year and I've forgotten.)

Who would that pinch hitter be?

King Ryan - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#186655) #

Actually not only had BJ never given up an 0-2 homerun to a lefty, but until today he had never given up an 0-2 homerun period, to anyone.

Down 0-2 to BJ, hitters had gone 16-for-183 with 2 XBH, and 108 K's. Guess there's a first for everything..

As for the pinch hit HR ... I dunno, Rance Mulliniks?

Lefty - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#186666) #

Pat Tabler?

williams_5 - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#186672) #

Definitely the sickest loss of the year....especially against the Yankees. Ugh...just ugh. So many squandered opportunities against that weak bullpen too. Not once did it feel like the game was in hand. Also, and this is just nitpicking because I've asked before about defensive indifference in the 9th inning and it kinda makes sense, but I feel like it also changes the complexion of the game when that single allows A-rod to score easily and its only a one run game with a guy on first. Hindsight is 20/20 but I'd rather they try to throw out Rodriguez. If you consistently make an effort teams will be dicouraged to run in those situations as well. Maybe Giambi still hits a homerun with two on, who knows. Its a bitter, bitter pill to swallow though.

grjas - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#186678) #

Rios...maybe he's worried Gibby reads John Brattain's columns.

Good. Finally some objectivity on Rios. Especially like Brattain's comment: "It�s that Rios knows he has ungodly talent and sometimes he lets that carry him". The guy's been driving me nuts for years, and for some reason he is usually treated with kid's gloves on this site. He has prodigious talent, yet has never put a good full season together. Hell he hasn't even cracked 90 RBI's once. Even Shea Hillenbrand did that.

Oh yes and for the frequent Wells bashers, give me a break:

RBI's: Rios- 24 ; Wells 24
GP: Rios- 60; Wells- 36

Produce or move him down in the order. Or may be as one writer suggested for Wells, we should platoon him with Wilkerson (?!)

Bid - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#186679) #

A painful loss for sure. Johnny Mac, we sure miss you. I concede that when the gritty one hits he doesn�t suck. And now that he's hitting 9th when appropriate, may we anticipate late inning appearances by a superior defender?

I really hate the Yankees when they win like this, although I have no reluctance to urge my team to do the same�why as recently as the top of the ninth, I urged them to crush like the Yankees, and they couldn�t do it.

Ryan�s mystery was strangely absent this afternoon. I hope we don't find him DL-ed tomorrow morning.

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 10:05 PM EDT (#186680) #

Hindsight is 20/20 but I'd rather they try to throw out Rodriguez.

No, no, a million times no! You want to keep the tying run out of scoring position. No one cares about the run that makes it 8-7.

Imagine if Rios had missed the cutoff man and Matsui had taken second and scored on a dinky little hit by Giambi... just imagine what people would be saying about Rios. Here of course, but in the clubhouse as well.

GregJP - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#186682) #

I�m watching Josh Banks pitch for the Padres tonight, and the Padre announcers are gushing over the fact that he throws 8 different pitches. (including a knuckle ball)

He threw a 92 MPH fastball on the black to strike out David Wright in the first inning.

Now I realize that his Padre results are over a tiny sample size, but he just doesn�t seem like the same pitcher that I watched in that single start last year. Strange.

williams_5 - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#186683) #

No one cares about the run that makes it 8-7

I completely understand the logic there, but winning is partly about getting 27 outs as efficiently as possible...if you have a 25% chance (or so) of getting that out, don't you almost have to take that chance? I honestly don't know, and to be candid if Giambi hadn't hit a home run I probably wouldn't even mention it.

Magpie - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#186685) #

if you have a 25% chance (or so) of getting that out

But in that situation there was far less than that kind of chance anyway. Even if Rios charges the ball aggressively and throws a strike. Rodriguez runs well, and with two outs he's off on contact.

Yeah. The walk-off makes us all crazy. I'm having bad flashbacks to the Travis Lee game. Which wasn't a walk-off, but it was an 0-2 pitch (which is what makes me absolutely, certifiably crazy!).

And Yankee Stadium always gives me really disturbing memories of the Felix Escalona Game

brent - Thursday, June 05 2008 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#186686) #

game 61- WPA heroes Downs (10), Stairs (7), Rolen (9), Rios (12) WPA let downs Ryan (2)*, Eckstein (15), Carlson (3), Scutaro (9), McGowan (4)

Now that the draft is over, JP has the next two months to make sure the team is ready for a pennant race. It is up to the players to make sure the team is still in contention for JP to reasonably make a significant deal (which I think is being at least 6 games over .500). The toughest part of the schedule (IMO) is August and September. If the Jays can't stay close enough through the next six weeks, JP might be better served by being a seller.

John Northey - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#186690) #

Was it Willie Mays Aikens back in early '85 for that pinch hit home run to win a game? I remember him doing something like that, but he might have already been in the game.

Magpie - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 12:34 AM EDT (#186692) #

Was it Willie Mays Aikens back in early '85 for that pinch hit home run to win a game?

It was a game-tying PH homer in his last major league at bat. Came in the top of the ninth. Moseby walked, stole second and scored on a Bell single to put them ahead in the 10th and Bill Caudill (yes!) successfully closed it out.

williams_5 - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 12:45 AM EDT (#186693) #

Magpie, it's occurred to me we aren't actually talking about the same play....I wasn't talking about trying to throw him out at home, I was talking about trying to throw him out stealing second base.

King Ryan - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 01:12 AM EDT (#186694) #

Ugh, the Felix Escalona game!

At least when Ryan blows a game, it doesn't take him 6 hours to do so like it did Batista.

Magpie - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 02:02 AM EDT (#186695) #

I was talking about trying to throw him out stealing second base.

Ah - well, they were giving him the base. With the LH batter up, Overbay wasn't holding Rodriguez on first. So he could take a 20 foot lead if he wanted, and he did.

So - no one's got the only Blue Jay pinch-hitter with a walk-off HR? How about the first walk-off homer on Opening Day? (Gregg Zaun was the catcher, if that helps. But it won't!)

Anders - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 07:15 AM EDT (#186697) #

One thing in particular that irked me was that Rod Barajas was unsuccessful tagging runners out at home twice. The first time was a tough short hop and the runner (Jeter?) probably was a couple of feat ahead of the throw and would have scored easily. The second time, however, on the pop up to Inglett in short right, with Damon running, Inglett's throw beat Damon by five feat easy, and Barajas had him dead to rights on a relatively easy middle hop... and dropped the ball again. Argh.

Rob - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 07:45 AM EDT (#186698) #

I'm having bad flashbacks to the Travis Lee game.

Amateur. A couple of weeks later, the Richie Sexson Game surpassed that one by far, and that ninth inning is forever playing on a non-stop loop in Room 101.

Magpie - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#186752) #

I have completely blocked the Richie Sexson Game from my consciousness. It's as if it never happened. No memory whatsoever.

Feels great, too.

And my piece on walk-off homers answers all trivial questions. Tony Batista hit the only Opening Day walk-off. Zaun was the KC catcher who called the pitch.

brent - Friday, June 06 2008 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#186781) #

game 62- WPA heroes Marcum (9)*4, Barajas (8), Wilkerson (3), Camp (3), Eckstein (11) WPA let downs Benitez (3)*, Stewart (14), Tallet (4), Scutaro (10), Overbay (15), Rios (19)

John Northey - Saturday, June 07 2008 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#186782) #

Benitez has now pitched in 8 games and been a WPA letdown 3 times. Seems silly to keep him with Wolfe in AAA - Wolfe has 4 IP with 2 hits, 0 walks, 5 K's plus 1 inning in A+ with 1 walk and 1 K. I say dump Benitez and call up Wolfe.

Mike Gosling from the left side is tempting too with his 35 IP, 34 H, 1 HR, 8 BB, 34 K's - showed too much wildness last year in the majors with 28 walks in 33 IP but if it is under control then I'd prefer seeing him to Benitez as well.

I understand pulling Marcum tonight, it was hot and humid in the GTA and the roof was open, but I just don't see the point of having Benitez around when you have Wolfe looking healthy and a couple others who could do the same role who might improve by being in the majors (League, Purcey) or might do better than Benitez (Gosling). Tallet didn't have it either tonight, and he made a lot of sense to bring in as he had the most rest (2 days off) but now with Camp and Carlson also used mixing in a fresh arm would be a good idea and cutting bait on Benitez is fairly cheap and not really losing much.

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