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There's an old adage in sports that a team is never as good as it looks when it's winning and never as bad as it looks when it's losing.  Not, that I'm finding much comfort in that this morning.


Another day, another loss, as the Jays added base running mistakes to their offensive woes.  I'll admit to baling on the game last night, there's only so much of this offense a guy can watch in a week at the moment.   A typically fiesty JP was on with Wilner last night, but it seemed all the callers wanted to talk about was Gibbons and Bonds.  JP defended Gibby and the coaches and put to rest the Bonds idea, accusing those fans wanting him here of selling their souls for a guy who may not have anything left.

Game Day:  AJ goes against Wakefield tonight.  I'll be watching tonight but mainly to see if Rance utters the phrase 'good hard knuckleball'.

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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Chuck - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 08:48 AM EDT (#184106) #

The team's offensive line is now 250/338/360. The league is at 260/334/398.

They are last in the AL in slugging and their once vaunted OBP is now little more than league average.

On the plus side, he says, grasping desperately for a silver lining, the team is allowing just 4.00 runs per game, tied for second best in the league.

 

Craig B - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#184108) #

The team doesn't actually look bad at all in my view, the current losing notwithstanding.  They look like quite a good team, and the pitching looks as good as anyone in the majors, except there are two brutal holes in the lineup and field that are eating them alive - shortstop, and left field/DH wherever Stairs isn't playing.  Both of those holes are self-created.  (Plus they had a torrid time when Rolen was out.)  Obviously, the V-Dub situation looms fairly large over the team as well but CF isn't a "hole" yet.

One solution is already on hand in McDonald, who isn't a complete solution but would at least solidify the defense - Eckstein's been shocking to my eyes although it's not borne out in the early ball-tracking numbers.  One solution might well be on hand in Lind, but only time will tell there.

Anyway, the team looks pretty fine to me.  One would back them, I think, to turn it around, although there's a danger in the offense never quite coming around.  There are a few guys in the lineup I'm very worried about - Wells and Overbay and Lind.  Stairs, Rios, Hill and Zaun all look just fine, but if you end up with five guys not hitting (unlikely though that is), nothing in the world can save you, you're going to stink.

brent - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#184109) #

game 28- WPA heroes Zaun (5), Accardo, McGowan (3)          WPA let downs  Downs (3)*, McDonald, Eckstein (10), Rios (6), Overbay (5)

*= more than +-0.300

John Northey - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#184115) #
Brent, just curious, the numbers in brackets are the times they were heroes or let downs right? 

As to the team right now...
Pitching is OK, and has hope with 3 starters at 118 or better for ERA+ and the 5th guy at 87 and climbing, while AJ...well...he should be a lot better than 69 by years end.  So much for 'contract year' boosting him.
Hitting has Stairs and Rios as 120+ guys, Rolen off to a great start (186 OPS+ in 5 games), then...well...um...Wells, Hill, Overbay, and Zaun are about league average (within 8 OPS+ of 100) followed by Eck (74), Stewart (56!).  Barajas has fallen apart after a fast opening to just 56.  McDonald is McDonald (42).  Scutaro is showing giving a 2 year deal to a backup is a poor idea (68) and Lind may not have been ready yet (-38 - yes, negative).

Hope is there now that we have a lineup, but every time we see Stewart, Barajas or Scutaro in the lineup I groan.  I understand keeping Stewart (who could accept a backup role and was cheaper) over Johnson but boy does it look like a poor choice now.  Barajas has hit like a defense only catcher, Scutaro at least has a decent OBP (351).    If you are going with a short bench you gotta have someone with a bat though and none of those 3 could be expected to crack 100 for OPS+ and all 3 are 32+ which is a poor age to invest in (32 is the traditional 'cliff' age).

Adams, Inglett and Diaz are next years bench most likely.  If anyone out there is silly enough to trade for Scutaro or Stewart or Barajas the Jays should take full advantage as the other 3 are younger, cheaper, and probably just as useful.  But going out and signing, say, Brad Wilkerson to replace Stewart is an option but not a great one as his power seems gone although at least he gets on base.  Still, you hit the situation of another lefty who has low upside so why bother?

2008 still has potential but the thinking now has to shift to how to be prepared for 2009 and how to clear out the deadwood to make room for growth, even if it is low end growth (Adams, Inglett).  I suspect we'll see no major changes until July 1st, but if this team is still sub-500 then we'll see JP eating salary again and Diaz getting a full shot while Adams gets a second chance as a backup while Stewart goes into the sunset.

If I was JP or Gibbons I'd be very nervous about job security though.  This team has potential but isn't living up to it and what is killing them is recent choices (Stewart, Barajas, Scutaro, Eckstein) and what could hurt soon are big contracts (Wells, AJ if he doesn't recover, Halladay on a new extension) and an owner who will view giving payroll space as wasted money - and after the Wells and Thomas contracts plus 2 year deals to utility players on the wrong side of 30 I couldn't blame them.
Mike Green - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#184118) #
torrid time when Rolen was out.

I guess the verbal equation is terrible + horrid = torrid. I agree with Craig substantively almost completely.  Eckstein looks torrid defensively, but the metrics are, I think, correct in suggesting that he is not as bad as he looks.
Chuck - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#184119) #

A propos of nothing, how some ex-Jays are doing...

Hinske, RF/1B/DH (TB): 292/407/639, 6 HR
Johnson, CF/LF (CHI): 296/379/333
Lilly, SP (CHI): 31 IP, 13 W, 25 K, 6.46 ERA
Glaus, 3B (STL): 260/345/410, 12 2B, 1 HR, 0 pinatas
Delgado, 1B (NYM): 198/297/323, 3 HR, 1 fork?
Thomas, DH (OAK): 217/379/348, 0 HR
Lyon, RP (ARI): 14 IP, 2 BB, 11 K, 2.57 ERA, 9 SV
Tabler, announcer (TOR): 1.000 CA (cliche average: ratio of cliches to phrases uttered)

Almost Jays...

Cain (SF): 33 IP, 23 BB, 29 K, 4.41 ERA
Lincecum (SF): 36 IP, 15 BB, 40 K, 1.73 ERA
Meche (KC): 34 IP, 15 BB, 23 K, 6 HR, 7.22 ERA
Giles (SD): 267/361/446, 1 second wind
Clemens, love machine (retired): Barry who?

stripeymonkey - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#184121) #
Isn't there also an old adage that pitching wins games?

The one thing that really frustrates me about the Jays in the few years I have been following is their complete inability to get on a win streak. In a month (well, one day after the month) where both Baltimore and Tampa have had 6 game win streaks it is particularly galling. I wouldn't know where to start but I am very curious to see how the Jays  win streaks in recent years match up with other teams'.

Can any of you stats magicians put your finger on why the Jays lack these streaks? Does it really mean anything or is it indicative of particular weaknesses? Or is ti just luck? I'm not suggesting the Jays should win every game but it seems even the weakest teams in the league go off on one from time to time.

timpinder - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#184124) #
I think it's a little early to sour on Wellss contract.  He's slumping right now, but so is everybody on the team not named Rolen.  I'll save judgement until after the season.  I still think Wells is going to hit like 2006 over the next few years, then if he stays with the Jays he'll have to take a pay cut during his final (likely performance declining) age 33-35 years.  I think it's a fair contract considering he plays a premium position, unless 2007 and 2008 are the norm over its duration.  A lot of other teams would have forked out the same money, maybe more, if he was a free agent.
The_Game - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#184128) #
There's absolutely no reason to believe that Vernon Wells will consistently be the hitter he was in '03 and '06. Expect something in between '06 and '07.
AWeb - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#184129) #
The lack of win streaks is something I've documented a few times in the last few years...it's been going on forever (well, most of this century), and it's not your imagination that Toronto hasn't managed many decent ones. I don't recall the exact specifics, but I'm fairly sure Toronto lacks a win streak of more than 6 games since 2002. A basic figuring - if Toronto is a .500 team (a reasonable guess over the last 5 years), each 6 game stretch should have about a 1.56% chance of a 6 game win streak. There are 157 6 game stretches in a year, or 27 completely separate ones. But every game represents a chance at either continuing or starting a win streak, and an 8 game win streak would contain three 6 game win streaks (1-6, 2-7, 3-8), so I'm going with 157 chances a year, each with a 1.56% chance of happening - a 6 game win streak should be happening 2-3 times a year. The Jays had one in 2004 and 2003, none since. Tampa Bay has them in 2004 (12!), 2005, and 2008, and aside from this year, they've been awful the whole time. The Yankees best win streak from 2007 -2002 : 9, 6, 10, 8, 8.

This is ignoring things like the fact that the schedule often gives a team a stretch of 6-10 "winnable" games in a row (and the opposite, of course). Schedule would tend to increase the chances of a streak. What decreases chances is of course the fact that starting pitchers are not uniform, so maybe the chances of a win are more like 65% with the #1, down to 35% with the #5 (the preceding numbers are just guesses, I'm sure someone has figured them out over the years). Looking for a meagre 6 game win streak means the #1 guy can be involved twice, which might actually represent a slight increase in the chances of a streak happening. No matter, it's safe to say Toronto has been remarkably non-"win streaky" in the past 5 years. The lack of win streaks past 4-5 games makes it almost impossible to string together a really strong 20 games stretch...like 16-4 or 17-3. Like the Jays will need this year if they are to contend.

There is nothing I've ever been able to see about Toronto that would prevent them from winning a bunch in a row. The starting rotation is usually good to very good, and the offense average. And teams of every type manage win streaks all the time. They just haven't been able to do it, which I suppose is probably bad luck.
stripeymonkey - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#184130) #
AWeb. Very comprehensive response. I crunched your numbers in the old web-o-matic and came up with this is as the likely timing for a 6 game streak :

"Don't hold your breath!" (statistical variations may apply)

ayjackson - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#184131) #

So AWeb....my cocktail napkin scrawlings (I know it's early) tell me that an 17 game winning streak would contain 'roughly' 12 6-game winning streaks.  So with five years of 0 6-game winning streaks in the books, and being due a minimum of 2 per year, I can conclude that an 17 game winning streak in 2008 at a minimum would make up for their 6-year absence.  Bring it on!

Though it would also seem that despite what has happened to date, the chance of an 17-game winning streak occuring this year is remote at best.

The good news is that our balance sheet is building a large base of "winning streak receivables".  Can we collect on it this generation?  Or are we merely paying off debt from better times?

jgadfly - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#184134) #
MayDay...MayDay...MayDay...no , not quite yet... Coming into the season the odds on favourite for the WildCard were one of three teams; the Yankee$, Tigers or Indians ... so the Jays are within 2 1/2 games of the sinking NYers and 2 games behind Cleveland and Detroit... they've been hitting the ball hard, just unfortunately at people which will hopefully change ... on the absence of winning streaks it seems as if Gibbons doesn't like them because after he wins 3 games in a row he sees the opportunity to rest the frontliners and he then comes up with some weird lineups and promptly goes into a losing skid.
rtcaino - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#184142) #
"I think it's a little early to sour on Wellss contract."

A lot of people were sour on the idea of the contract before JP and Wells's agent had even spoken.  Nothing wrong with recognizing the antecedents of an albatross. 
timpinder - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#184150) #

If Wells finishes this season hitting around .300 / .360 / .540 (.900 OPS), do you think people will still believe it's a bad contract?  I don't think so.  You see a lot of knee-jerk reactions.  I don't think Wells' contract will ever be considered a bargain like Halladay's, but if Wells averages an .850 OPS over the next 4-7 years along with above average defensive at CF, his deal is fair based on the market.  That's just my opinion.  I also like how the contract is structured, with a pay-cut immediately after the option year.

A lot of people thought Burnett's deal was terrible at the time, now just three years later he'll almost certainly be opting out for more money (unless his arm falls off).

Chuck - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#184154) #

If Wells finishes this season hitting around .300 / .360 / .540 (.900 OPS), do you think people will still believe it's a bad contract?  I don't think so. 

Wells has put up a 900 OPS just twice in his 6-year career (counting his .899), so the likelihood of another one this year, particularly after 100 AB of 700 OPS, is not huge. Not impossible, but not likely.

I don't think Wells' contract will ever be considered a bargain like Halladay's, but if Wells averages an .850 OPS over the next 4-7 years  

His career OPS is 800, so an 850 average from ages 29-35 is unlikely unless he pulls a Paul Molitor and improves in his 30's.

But this Wells argument has been done to death around here. He's being paid to be 2003/2006 Wells, a man I fear we may never see again.

timpinder - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#184155) #

For the sake of comparison, Wells makes an average of $18 million per season, Hunter $18 million, Suzuki $18 million, Beltran $17 million, and Andruw Jones $18.1 million.  Soriano and Lee make similar money but play LF, which is a much easier position to fill and defense is not nearly as important.  Damon makes $13 million, but doesn't hit as well as the above mentioned outfielders and had to be moved to LF also.

Wells' deal is probably better than Hunter's and Suzuki's when considering both offence and defense, is probably at par with Jones' deal, but Beltran is a steal for the Mets right now.  He's the best CF of the bunch and is getting paid the least.  It just goes to show you that what may have looked like a lot of money at the time sometimes proves to be a bargain during the final years of the contract.

The point is, Wells' contract is fair, based on the market.  If Wells ends up hitting closer to 2003 and 2006 than he does the years in between, the deal actually favours the Jays in my opinion, especially since Wells is a plus defender in CF.

Frank Markotich - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#184156) #

Over the last while, the team has struggled with fastballs, breaking balls and changeups. Maybe they'll have better success against a knuckleballer tonight.

Next up - the Blue Jays petition the league to let the batters stand at the plate and toss the ball up in the air for themselves.

Barry Bonnell - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#184157) #
Keith Law: (1:05 PM ET ) Oh, speaking of which, how on earth do you use Scott Freaking Downs in the ninth inning of a tie game with B.J. Ryan available? And then let Downs face all those RH hitters? Yikes.
uglyone - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#184158) #
exactly.
uglyone - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#184159) #

For the sake of comparison, Wells makes an average of $18 million per season, Hunter $18 million, Suzuki $18 million, Beltran $17 million, and Andruw Jones $18.1 million.  Soriano and Lee make similar money but play LF, which is a much easier position to fill and defense is not nearly as important.  Damon makes $13 million, but doesn't hit as well as the above mentioned outfielders and had to be moved to LF also.

Wells' deal is probably better than Hunter's and Suzuki's when considering both offence and defense, is probably at par with Jones' deal, but Beltran is a steal for the Mets right now.  He's the best CF of the bunch and is getting paid the least.  It just goes to show you that what may have looked like a lot of money at the time sometimes proves to be a bargain during the final years of the contract.

The point is, Wells' contract is fair, based on the market.  If Wells ends up hitting closer to 2003 and 2006 than he does the years in between, the deal actually favours the Jays in my opinion, especially since Wells is a plus defender in CF.

 

This is true.

 

What's funny is that it also means that paying Frank Thomas what turns out to be around $17 million for one season (one season where he was a top-50 MLB hitter), actually turns out to be no-so-awful value, relatively speaking.

Getting that season for the $10 million annual salary last year was actually quite a good deal, for a free agent contract.

 

Chuck - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#184161) #
The point is, Wells' contract is fair, based on the market.

Since the ink on the contract dried, he put up a 706 OPS in 2007 and is currently at 714 in 2008. Let's just get to an 800 OPS before we consider his performance worth anything like $17M.
AWeb - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#184162) #
For some more perspective on Toronto's incredible lack of good streaks, here' s the list of other teams longest win streaks since 2003. Putting every team at .500 level makes a 9-10 game win streak the most likely in a 5 year period, by my quick back of envelope calculations. Since most teams have been that good at least once in the period, a trend towards longer streaks is expected.

Also, if I went back to 2002, Toronto is stil dead last (and a few other teams might move up more, I didn't check) with a seven game streak. The Jays last had an 8 game streak in 1999 (in April).

12 - Boston, Tampa Bay, Houston, Arizona
11 - Minnesota, L.A., Colorado
10 - Yankees, Oakland, Washington, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, San Francisco
9 - Kansas City, White Sox, Cleveland, Anaheim, Seattle, Texas, Florida, Philadelphia, St. Louis, San Diego
8 - Baltimore, Detroit, Mets, Atlanta, Cinncinnati
7 - Cubs
6- Toronto

So yeah, it's not just our imagination. Man, that was depressing to sort through...although note that to get on a long win streak does not require being a great team. And almost once a year, a team wins 12 in a row. Jays in 2008!
John Northey - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#184163) #
As frustrating as the current situation is (another 1-0 or 2-1 loss today and we'll have only gray haired or bald fans left!) it is worth it in exchange for the wonder of 92-93.

Think about it - for 86 years, despite having a massive market for revenue and some of the best players of all time, the Red Sox didn't win a World Series and only got there 4 times or roughly once every 21 years. 
The Cubs have gone a century since their last WS win and over 60 years since getting to the big dance.
The Expos fans never got to see their team in a World Series and only got the fun of a playoff once.
The Royals fans have one WS win and 2 appearances, with no playoffs at all since that win in 1985.
The White Sox fans have one WS win since World War One was in progress.
The Phillies were formed in 1883 and have just one WS to their name (1980)
The Giants haven't won in their current city and have just one title since the great depression.
Washington fans haven't had a team that went all the way since 1924 and that was their only title with 3 different teams.
The Rangers, Astros, Rockies, Rays, Mariners, Brewers, Expos/Nationals and Padres have never won a World Series

Blue Jay fans got 2 World Series wins plus another 3 playoff appearances during the teams 31 seasons. 

Are we as lucky as the Yankees?  Nope.  But I'd gladly go through another dozen years like this one in exchange for that wonderful 1983-1993 stretch where the Jays were always in it and ended with the two titles in a row.  Sure beats what any baseball fans in Texas, Chicago, Tampa, Seattle, Milwaukee, Montreal, Washington, Philadelphia, Kansas City or San Diego have had.
timpinder - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#184166) #

Chuck,

you make a good point (except that Wells was playing on his old contract in 2007 and the injury likely contributed to that terrible year).  And for the record, I didn't agree with the Wells deal and was pretty open about thinking he should have been traded for pitching and a SS prospect at the end of 2006.  The Jays don't have the budget of the Yankees and I don't think they can afford to spend 20% of their payroll on one player, unless it's an exceptional player signing under market value, a la Halladay.

My issue is with those who talk about the Wells deal as if he's Hampton, Zito, Brown or Mondesi, and call it an "albatross" and a terrible mistake.  The fact remains that if a 29 year-old centerfielder with plus defense and a career OPS of .809 hit the market right now, he'd be getting about $18 million per year.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#184167) #
John - I sort of agree with you ... but the Jays play in the Rogers Centre.  I find it to be a horrible place to watch a game and the entire experience of a Rogers Centre game is solely the product on the field.  As an aside, the best place to watch a game in the broad Toronto region is Dunn Tire Park in Buffalo.

For some of the teams you list, going to the ballpark is actually an enjoyable experience in and of itself, even if the game isn't that great.  I can't speak for all stadiums, but going to Fenway, Wrigley, New Comiskey (US Cellular if you must), or Camden Yards is actually enjoyable even if your team loses or the game isn't that great.

It may be a cliche, but I find it more enjoyable to watch a game at Wrigley through the chain-link fence in right field more than I do sitting behind home plate at the RC.
brent - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#184168) #

John Northey, you are correct about the bracketed number. If there is an asterisk beside the player, it means that they significantly contributed to the win or loss by their clutchness. It is scary that Eckstein is the first to double digits. He has had 10 out of 28 games to be among team leaders for being "unclutch" in a game. The more playing time you get, the more chances you have to fail.

With 20/20 hindsight if JP was even thinking about dumping Thomas in the past offseason or spring training, why wouldn't he have kept around both Stewart and Johnson? The timing was only three weeks apart. Where is Denbo in all of this. I see no media comments from him. Further, I guess there were a few more problems that Brantley had than just that the players weren't healthy enough last year. I hope Denbo can do something with the hitters by June.

The Jays payroll is around 100 million with almost 10 million (Thomas + Johnson) being eaten (JP made it a sunk cost). In this division, you can't be eating contracts every year. A sunk cost is a sunk cost yes. However, injuries happen and are not very predictable yet, so on players like Koskie, he can get a pass on. Sunk costs because of ineffectiveness or poor roster construction is on JP. I think he is still a top 15 GM. I would rather have him than the bottom half of the league. I don't think people should judge this season until the trade deadline to see where this team really is. He gets two months to see the team and two months to fix the team. If the higher ups have already decided the axe will fall, then please let it be before the amateur draft to let the new GM pick his players. Anyone can definitely point out mistakes he's made, but has he learned from them? I think the Rios and Hill deals are much better than the ones given to Wells and Overbay. His drafts have been considered improved by just about everyone. Also, I think he signed Scutaro and McDonald to two year deals to get a lower price on them overall. One year deals could have cost almost the same.

Chuck - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#184169) #

The fact remains that if a 29 year-old centerfielder with plus defense and a career OPS of .809 hit the market right now, he'd be getting about $18 million per year.

Perhaps, but not a 6-7 year contract.

Andruw Jones, at the age of 30, after a season much like Wells' 2007 "settled" for a 2-year deal at $18M per. LA was hoping for a return of the guy who hit 92 HR in 2005-2006 but was not willing to commit to more than two years to find out if that guy still existed.

Would a 29-year old Wells, coming off his lousy 2007 season, with a less impressive CV than Andruw Jones, have commanded $18M per year?

scottt - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#184170) #
What's the record without Thomas so far? 3-8? Ouch.

I'm not sad to say goodbye to April.

Apart from the bullpen, all the players are where they should be. Not much room left for tweaks.

Let's just enjoy the games.


Leigh - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#184171) #
The fact remains that if a 29 year-old centerfielder with plus defense and a career OPS of .809 hit the market right now, he'd be getting about $18 million per year.

You sure V-Dub fits that description?
timpinder - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#184173) #

Eckstein still batting 2nd, Wells clean-up, Scutaro starting instead of Overbay, and Stewart starting instead of Lind. 

Gibbons must have another job waiting for him.

ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#184174) #
You sure V-Dub fits that description?

Something weird is happening to the Jays OFs this year - I don't know what the cause is - sample size, positioning due a lot of close games, fluke, or what.

For a non-Wells example ... Rios is the worst RF in baseball right now according to RZR.

I'm not prepared to believe that a 27 year-old RF who is in good shape, goes from the best to the worst in one offseason.  As such, I think you need to take this year's numbers with a grain of salt (at least at this point in time).

That said, Wells was bad last year too.  I think it was because of injury though - I know it was his shoulder, but I would think that'd affect the plays right at the limit of your range (diving, running into the wall, etc.)  - which are the ones that are really going to impact your defensive metrics as that's where all the marginal differences are.

If you think last year's injury didn't affect Wells, then I can see your point and I'll agree to disagree.  But if you're basing it off of his RZR and other stats so far this year, you must also concede that Rios is all of a sudden a horrible defender too.
grjas - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#184175) #
We are tied for second last in all of baseball. The team is hitting below 100 on the trip in terms of RISP. We have rotated a ton of players through the lineup in different roles. The pitchers, for the second year in a row, are pitching their guts out yet running up losses due to non-support.  This team is not just frustrating; they are insufferably boring to watch.

 It is time to be the anti-Leaf fan: I'm tired of this crap and am not going to put up with it any more. I am turning off RSN and deep sixing the baseball page until this team shows some character. Who else is in?

owen - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#184176) #

Eckstein still batting 2nd, Wells clean-up, Scutaro starting instead of Overbay, and Stewart starting instead of Lind. 

Gibbons must have another job waiting for him.

Campbell just pointed out Scutaro's .417 clip against Wakefield lifetime.  So you gotta give Gibbons a break there.

timpinder - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#184177) #

Fair enough, and Blair's blog had Wells batting 4th, but it's Stairs at clean-up afterall.

On another note, what have the Jays done to anger the God of baseball?  Wells and Rios both just smoked the ball right at Ramirez.  That's six (that I've counted) very well hit balls by Wells since the beginning of the KC series that have been right at guys (including Pedroia's snag).  Rios' liner was with the bases loaded for crying out loud.  No luck at all for the Jays, and they've scored 116 runs and only allowed 112 against, yet they have an 11-17 record.  Make it stop!

scottt - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 08:34 PM EDT (#184179) #
Nothing wrong with the starting lineup. Wakefield is a special case. No point to put Lind through that. Let him focus on the fastballs.

Eckstein gets  a double ...  than makes the first out at the plate.  Some bad baserunning or a coaching mistake?



Dave Till - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#184180) #
When was the last time a three-game series at Fenway ended with a total of 7 runs scored by both teams?

Of course, the problem is that it was cold in Boston - it's hard to hit in cold weather.

John Northey - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#184181) #
Well, now we know what it takes for the Jays to win.  Just don't allow any runs!  :)

Nice to see our top two guys pitch out of the pen tonight.  Wonder what happened to Tallet though - he was the favorite son for the first couple of weeks but now has pitched in just one of the past nine games after pitching in 10 of the first 20.  No home runs given up yet, solid ERA, a K an inning, more walks than ideal but not horrid.  Very odd.

timpinder - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 10:55 PM EDT (#184182) #
It's going to be tough on Lind.  He sat tonight and the next two games are against lefties, but I hope Gibbons lets the kid play.  If he's the starting leftfielder of the future he's going to have to get used to hitting left-handed pitching.
DH - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#184184) #

I realize it's a tad early to start down this path but for arguments sake a few more outings like tonight by Burnett certainly increase  his potential trade value. Assuming that any trading partner would be looking to sign him to extension, you'd think the NL would be the likely destination. Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta,.... All of which have some young players who would either look good in the rotation or on the field.

If you're JP you have a very volatile asset that might opt out if he has a good year. Given the yo-yo performances, and the potential haul (with extension) my vote is trade. Your thoughts?

 

Four Seamer - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#184186) #

I am turning off RSN and deep sixing the baseball page until this team shows some character. Who else is in?

I'm tempted to follow your lead, but if we turn off all those things, who will be able to tell us when to turn them back on?
 

 

John Northey - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 11:55 PM EDT (#184188) #
If the Jays are 10 out by July 15th I'd expect AJ to be traded if healthy.  A new team would have to give him a one year $25 million extension as a minimum to keep him past this year ($12 per year 09/10 plus $25 for 11 = $49 for 3 = just over $15 per year which is about right, might take a bit more though) but someone who is desperate would do it quick as well as giving up a few solid prospects.

I'd say it'll happen if (in order of importance)...
  1. Jays 10+ out of the playoffs or sub-500 and not looking good
  2. AJ healthy and doing reasonably well (under 4.25 ERA, ideally below 4.00)
  3. Offered at least 2 solid prospects (at AAA and likely to reach majors in '08 or '09)
  4. Litsch, Marcum, McGowan all solid (4.50 or less ERA's with at least one sub 4)
  5. Purcey keeps knocking on the door, hard (ERA under 3 in AAA with solid K-BB ratio)
  6. Someone else emerges as a solid 6th option (Chacin, Cecil, Romero, etc.)
Without the first condition no way do they trade AJ.  Without the 2nd no one will trade for him.  #3 is also vital otherwise you might as well get the draft picks.  #4 and #5 are important otherwise a big hole emerges in the rotation.  #6 just makes it easier to do as you have backup if anyone fails.

Will it happen?  I hope not as that means this season will be another blah one that we all want to forget.  2 first round picks next year can't hurt, unless we can get some stud to take over at short or 1B/DH (Delgado ability for 1B/DH and 25 or less in age).  The only way this is good is if the 3 kids and Purcey all scream out for slots making AJ expendable.
ayjackson - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 12:23 AM EDT (#184190) #
It's worth noting that Burnett was a "B" ranked pitcher after last season according to Elias.  One would assume that if his season is good enough for him to opt out, that he would have improved his Elias ranking to an "A".  This is not a certainty though.  Also, if he is an "A" and is signed by one of the worst 15 teams, we get their second rounder instead of their first as compensation (in addition to the Supplemental pick).
uglyone - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 12:39 AM EDT (#184194) #

Hell, if McGowan and Marcum continue to make Burnett look like our 4th starter (and Litsch and Purcey keep performing well)....considering that if we ARE in the race, we're all going to be clamoring to get a big bat at the deadline for the playoff push......we might be looking at trading Burnett EVEN IF WE"RE STILL IN IT.

Trade a #4 starter, no matter how good, for a key playoff bat, instead of trading quality kids....especially if Burnett's opting out anyways....

Jimbag - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 03:16 AM EDT (#184196) #
"A lot of people were sour on the idea of the contract before JP and Wells's agent had even spoken.  Nothing wrong with recognizing the antecedents of an albatross. "

An albatross? Really? Just because Rios can (and will) move over to CF in the next 3-4 seasons, don't dismiss Wells defensively. Or at the dish.

Albatross? Holy cats, is that ever short sighted. Never mind what VW has done for us lately, what is he doing for us RIGHT NOW?

Well, here in reality he still has great range, a great arm, and while he's not tearing it up at the plate yet this year (following shoulder surgery, I might add) it's maybe just a little premature to refer to him as an albatross.

That statement just goes to prove that anyone can voice an opinion....no matter how clueless it might be.


RhyZa - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 08:52 AM EDT (#184201) #

Albatross maybe a strong word but in the sense that the resources could have been used elsewhere with potential for better returns, he is not anymore off base than you are with your exaggerated rationalizations of V Dub's game.  

Wells hasn't lived up to his contract.   This isn't hindsight.  Many of us recognized it at the time.   He is an inconsistent offensive player with good to great d and that's a lot to pay for one of those types, especially for this Jay team given it's makeup and competition.  I believe he is a great supporting cast player, not a tier 1 player to build around an offense on, but a good #2 and a great #3. 

Hodgie - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#184204) #

"I am turning off RSN and deep sixing the baseball page until this team shows some character. Who else is in?"

"I'm tempted to follow your lead, but if we turn off all those things, who will be able to tell us when to turn them back on?"

You will know the next time the Bandwagon pulls up outside your door?

timpinder - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#184206) #

"Wells hasn't lived up to his contract"

Right now, Wells has played exactly 28 games and has accumulated 110 at-bats on his 7-year $126 million contract.  So, for less than 2.5% (approximate) of the length of the contract he has underperformed, I'll agree.  But he's had some bad luck, as I've mentioned before, since he's smoked the ball several times during the last two series and has come up with nothing.  Personaly, I'd rather have Wells in CF for my team than Suzuki, Jones or Hunter who are getting paid almost the exact same.

92-93 - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#184239) #
I'd prefer Suzuki without a question (because this team needs a speedy leadoff hitter) and Hunter is a toss-up, but I'm going to go with Torii's defense and more consistent bat.

And to ignore the fact that locking Wells up last year cost us is silly. Sure, the extension kicked in this year, but signing it before 2007 meant that JP didn't have the flexibility to sign other FAs or trade for other big salaried players. Vernon's 2007 counts when evaluating that contract, and it sucked big time.

I never had a problem with the terms of the Wells deal, per se. What really irked me was the TIMING of it ; it was completely unnecessary to lock him up fresh off his best year ever, with a young future CF blooming next to him in RF. I shudder to think of what the 2008 Jays would look like with the young prospects we could have traded Vernon for in addition to the FA that same $ could have been spent on.
ChicagoJaysFan - Friday, May 02 2008 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#184242) #
To build on 92-93's comment, the Jays seem to have no concept of real options (neither do many teams in baseball actually).

Regardless of what you thought of the $ terms of Vernon's contract at the time, I think everyone agrees (and agreed at the time) that 2006 was probably Wells' peak and his being paid as if he could maintain that peak.  If that's the case, then why sign him a year before his free agency?  You've forgone any benefit in salary savings you may accrue by Vernon having a down year in 2007.  And you haven't protected yourself against Vernon's price rising due to a great 2007 because you're paying him as if he had a great 2007.  The Jays completely eliminated the value of their real option.

Just wait until free agency and then re-sign Vernon.  Or sign someone else.  Players are not this limited commodity we are led to believe.

For instance, that 2006 offseason where we the Jays thought they came up with nothing?  They signed the guy that led them in OPS+ in 2006. 

This past offseason, there was Milton Bradley, Mike Cameron, Jose Guillen, Torii Hunter, Geoff Jenkins, Andru Jones, and Aaron Rowand available (and switching teams) that could have filled the gap of Vernon Wells leaving.  That's if we decide to replace him with an OF free agent.  We also could have signed a starting pitcher, a 3rd baseman, or other position and traded for a replacement OF.  For example, we could have signed Mike Lamb and traded Glaus for an OF.

The only times I can really see it making sense to sign guys to long-term contracts before their current ones expire is when you are buying out years of free agency.  At least anecdotally, it appears that players are willing to take below-market value for the benefit of having guaranteed money at the early stages of their career.
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