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The Jays lose another close-ish game in Tampa as the Rays complete the three game sweep, running Toronto's losing streak to four. In, uh, more positive news, the Raptors won, so Toronto ended the night 1-1 against the state of Florida.


The Jays once again failed to hit in the clutch, and did not take an advantage of the hittable Sonnanstine. This was basically the same game as the last two, as the Jays were unable to capitalize against not particularly fantastic starting pitching while receiving a sub par effort from their own starter, in this case Dustin McGowan, who was chased after 4+, walking seven and whiffing six.

Elsewhere in the Majors,
  • Frank Thomas goes 0-3 with 2 walks as the A's beat up on the Twins, 11-2. Francisco Liriano runs his post-TJ record to 0-3 after pitching 2/3 of an inning and giving up 6 runs on 5 hits and 3 walks; he whiffed no one. His ERA now sits at just over 11 - methinks the majors is not the best place for him right now.
  • The surprising Astros ran their winning streak to five games with a 5-3 win over the Reds, who lose their first game of the Jockerty era.
  • Manny Corpas lost the closers job to Brian Fuentes, who shut the door today as the Rockies beat the white hot Cubbies.
  • Cleveland is quietly climbing back into things - they won both halves of a doubleheader today against the Royals, and Cliff Lee pitched a CG 3 hit shutout to take game 2 by a score of 2-0. Lee is now 4-0 and in his four starts has gone 31.2 innings allowing 12 hits, 1 earned run with a k/bb ratio of 29/2. So, uh, pretty good.
  • Finally the Giants took a 1-0 squeaker against the Padres today on a Rich Aurilia home run. Chris Young and Tim Lincecum combined for 19 k's. More hilariously, the Giants have now scored 71 runs in 23 games (3 fewer than the Padres who are second worst in the Majors.) 3.09 runs a game puts them on pace to score exactly 500 runs, which would be a historically terrible figure - I did some cursory checking, and no other team has been within 50 runs of that since at least 1989. Yes, it is early you say, but the Giants also batted Ray Durham cleanup today. Mind you this was only because Bengie Molina had the night off though, he normally bats fourth. Just for fun, how many of these names ring a bell - Fred Lewis, Eugenio Velez, John Bowker, Durham, Aaron Rowland, Rich Aurilia, Emmanuel Burriss, Steve Holm? That was the Giants starting lineup yesterday.

TDIB 25 April 2008 | 31 comments | Create New Account
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Petey Baseball - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 02:37 AM EDT (#183614) #
It seems as though a lot of fans on this site refrain from ranting after the game, and for good reason (looking at the big picture is always more rational). Yet, those who believe that this team will suddenly start playing .650 baseball the rest of the year simply by returning Rolen and Lind to the lineup are fooling themselves. The Blue Jays had a healthy lineup at the beginning of this season, and for most of the 2nd half of last season. Did we see the team show any consistency over that time? The answer is no.
    Look, most of J.P.'s moves as G.M. over the years are defensable. Its not his fault Overbay had a freak injury and has stunk ever since. Its not his fault Wells played hurt last year. But I'm simply asking at what point is enough, well...enough? Its not fair we gotta find guys like Ingeltt, Jason Smith and Howie Clark to play significant time for us because of financial restraints. But hell, its been over six years! With the exception of Aaron Hill, there has not been one position player  come up  through the system and help these  teams on a consistent basis.  Adam Lind could prove me wrong, but its highly unlikely he will be able to carry this offence now or in the future, which with the exception of Vernon Wells and Matt Stairs, has very little power, or balance. 
    What makes things even worse, is to see a team like the Rays who with a payroll of less than half of what the Blue Jays spend, be able to match us over a long period of time, and occasionally embarass us.  True, the Rays have a less than satisfactory transaction record, yet the core of their team seems capable of challenging us for third place and even surpassing the Blue Jays. Helping lead the charge are young, cheap (for the production they give), and very promising young players like Crawford, Longoria and Upton.  I would rather have any of those three players than anyone on the Blue Jay roster at this point.
     For me the question isn't whether or not Adam Lind, Scott Rolen, or Barry Bonds for that matter can help this team get to the next level.  It is whether or not a new manager, with a different thought process can help guide this team to those extra 10-12 critical wins.  What makes it absolutely maddening, is knowing that this move will not be made soon enough. I admire J.P. for sticking to his guns, and pity the bad luck and circumstances he's been dealt in his tenure, but this is one fan who has finally lost faith.

timpinder - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 03:06 AM EDT (#183615) #

The Rays might not be the best comparison.  It's pretty easy to stock your system with young talent when you finish dead last and get the first overall pick year after year.

I'll admit that it has been a frustrating season so far, but I'm not ready to give up on 2008 yet.  Overbay will find his power stroke eventually, Burnett will find his curveball, and if Rolen can return to form within a couple of weeks and Lind hits around .300 / .360 / .500 in the majors (which his career minor league numbers suggest he can), this team could finally go on a tear.

I'll give it another month or two.  If they're still below .500 as the trade deadline approaches, I imagine there'll be some moves.  Ricciardi and Gibbons might not be here, and the 2010 crew and their contracts (Rolen, Overbay, Burnett and Ryan) may become trade-bait if they have value.  But I'm holding out hope that the Jays will be in the middle of the race by then.

brent - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 04:06 AM EDT (#183616) #

game 23- WPA heroes Overbay (4), Zaun (4), Hill (5)     Letdowns McGowan, Eckstein (8), Scutaro (2), Tallet (2)

85bluejay - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 08:07 AM EDT (#183620) #

While as a jays fan, I wish the team all the success possible - if this season is dreadfull, a silver lining may be the

end of the J.P era - with all those low ceiling picks (2007 is an exception as we had extra picks - I expect 2008

to revert to the low ceiling college picks), wasted spending and general arrogance and whining.

I only hope we don't have another 80-82 win season with many wins in september saving JP job and another

year of fustration for fans.

Thomas - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#183622) #
FYI, in his column today Richard Griffin joined the chorus of people questioning Gibbons for giving Wells and Rios days off this week, asking why the manager felt it was necessary to give Rios a day off during an evening game following a "get-away" game the previous afternoon and a late afternoon flight to Tampa.
greenfrog - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 09:07 AM EDT (#183624) #
Sometimes it helps to have an outside perspective. Here's Aaron Gleeman (a generally level-headed commentator) on the Thomas situation:

"It's remarkable that the A's were able to pay just $500,000 for Thomas' huge comeback season in 2006 and now get him back for even less than that, with the Blue Jays paying him $18 million in the meantime. Thomas is unlikely to repeat that huge year that he had with the A's in 2006, but still figures to make the Blue Jays regret letting him go so soon and is well worth gambling on in most leagues if the price is right. A .270 batting average with 20 homers and 75 RBIs is doable." (www.rotoworld.com)

Remarkable, indeed. Now, this may be the year that Hurt finally stops producing at a high level. But the entire late-career Thomas saga (signing him to a big contract after his comeback season, then releasing him in early '08, thereby allowing the A's to re-sign him for a minimal one-year salary) does not reflect well on Ricciardi.
ComebyDeanChance - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 09:19 AM EDT (#183625) #
I think the 'bad luck and circumstances' excuses for JP Ricciardi have worn thin. So thin you can see through it.
Mike Green - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#183626) #
I agree with Aaron's overall point about the costs and benefits of Frank, but if you're in a roto league and expecting a .270 average out of Frank in Oakland, you are likely to be sorely disappointed.  He did it 2 years ago in Oakland, but the passing of time makes it quite unlikely.  With the large foul area there and Frank's high pop-up rate, added to his lack of speed, the circumstances are very unfavourable.  ZIPS had him projected at .248 in Toronto prior to the season.  That may have been a bit low, but the odds are good that Frank will hurt in you the batting average category in roto.
jmoney - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#183628) #
In bad times like this a fan wants to blame people. Gibbons and J.P. are likely canidates.

However, it looks like they got rid of Thomas because of monetary concerns and may be keeping Lind down for similar reasons. (Don't need a super 2)

They're one of the few teams that seems to stick to slot when drafting. Its been said before on this site and it should be said again. Rogers is cheap.

Ryan Day - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#183629) #
I'm understanding of the team when injuries and unexpected slumps happen. But a lot of the time, the team doesn't seem to know how to fix the problems. Frank Thomas slumps, sulks, and gets released? Okay. But then they go and give Rios and Wells off-days? They keep running out Inglett, Scutaro, and Stewart while Adam Lind continues to mash in Syracuse? Or last year, when Jason Phillips was catching and Curtis Thigpen was sitting on the bench and occasionally playing 1b.

The team's had some bad luck, but sometimes Ricciardi & Gibbons just seem to throw up their hands and say "oh well, what can we do?"

Mike Green - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#183632) #
Tampa looks very similar on the field as it appeared on paper.  There is a huge improvement in the infield defence, with the arrival of Bartlett and Longoria.  As a result, they're at .500 with a positive run differential despite missing Kazmir and Garza.  Their offence has had an even balance of hot (Hinske, Navarro) and cold (Crawford, Iwamura, Bartlett) starts, but looks like it will generate 5 runs per game. 

Nonetheless, better Jay management (at both levels) might very well have prevented a sweep of the series. It is rare that you can point to poor management contributing to specific losses, but in this series, it was pretty much clear.

robertdudek - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#183635) #
I checked an early betting line on the Grienke-Burnett matchup and I couldn't believe my eyes: KC a slight favourite at 1.97 to 1 (decimal odds).  With KC at home, one of the hottest pitchers in baseball on the mound and the Jays slumping bats, I would have thought it would be at least 1.7 to 1.
Four Seamer - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#183636) #

Its been said before on this site and it should be said again. Rogers is cheap.

With all due respect to the person posting this comment, remarks like these are uncharitable, misguided and flat-out wrong.  The Blue Jays budget this year is in the $100 million range.  As far as MLB budgets go, this is not a particularly parsimonious offering.  That Ricciardi clearly has no firm concept of how to spend that money judiciously reflects only on him, not on ownership.

Also, when it comes to things which have been said on this site before and should be again, apparently we should add to that list the fact that Ted Rogers does not own the Blue Jays.  Rogers Communications does, and Rogers Communications is a public company.  The Blue Jays are not a hobby or a toy for Rogers - its directors owe a fiduciary obligation to its shareholders to maximize return, which at the very least compels them not to burn the whole company down by letting JP Ricciardi construct an 85 win team on a limitless budget.  

Mike Green - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#183640) #
I checked an early betting line on the Grienke-Burnett matchup and I couldn't believe my eyes: KC a slight favourite at 1.97 to 1 (decimal odds).  With KC at home, one of the hottest pitchers in baseball on the mound and the Jays slumping bats, I would have thought it would be at least 1.7 to 1.

Clearly, someone knows that Adam Lind will be in the house tonight. :)
robertdudek - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#183644) #
I don't think misspending money has been a huge problem with JP. Sure he's overspent on some free agents, but if you don't you simply won't get any. Money spent on Halladay and Wells seems to have been well-spent, likewise money spent for the future of Rios. These are the types of players a contending team must have. Money spent on Burnett and BJ Ryan make sense too, because it is always a sound approach to spend more money on high quality players, rather than a little less of mediocre players. The fact that they have had injury problems is the risk one takes for pitchers. However, spending a lot of money on DH types like Frank Thomas is almost never a good idea for a club on a limited budget.

I see two basic categories of failure in the current regime:

1) Lack of development of position players through the farm system.

Aaron Hill remains as the singular successful product of the Ricciardi regime. Most notable is the spectacular failure of Russ Adams. Thigpen has scrub catcher written all over him. Partly that's because JP has been drafting pitchers. Lind and Snider might change that a bit, but neither are going to play a premium defensive position (where talent is scarce). Productive farm systems tend to come up with a lot of middle infielders and centerfielders that can be shifted to less demanding defensive positions as necessary.

2) Failure to stockpile quality role players for the bench, so that the added depth can help overcome injuries. Too many utility infielder types, not enough big bats. I will give him credit for Matt Stairs and Gregg Zaun, though these two have essentially become frontline players. This has led to many situations where, because of injury, players who were clearly suited to a bench role had to play everyday. Foremost among these was John McDonald becoming the everyday shortstop after Royce Clayton predictably stunk up the joint.

He's done much better in bringing in pitchers from other organisations for cheap, such as Frasor, Downs and Accardo.

3) Lack of development of "high-impact" pitchers. So far Shaun Marcum is the best pitcher the JP farm system has produced. Purcey likely won't be a front of the rotation guy and Romero is almost sure not to be. He flipped Dave Bush and others for Overbay - not a huge return it seems. Jesse Litsch seems like a nice find, but many of us thought the same about Chacin.

JP came here preaching the mantra of a strong farm system, but the truth is that the Ash years of comparable length (95-2001) produced far more premium talent (Halladay, Wells, Rios, Hudson, McGowan and Michael Young to name the obvious).

AWeb - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#183650) #
On the fiscal responsibility front, The Jays strike me as "penny-wise and pound-foolish". They are willing to take shots on players for big money, like Ryan, Burnett, Thomas. The Jays have been very good at locking up the internal talent, whether you agree with contract lengths/amounts or not (Rios, Wells, Hill, Halladay, Hinske). But on a team that spent 18 million on Frank Thomas, has gotten the predicted injuries for Ryan and Burnett (yes, people thought BJ would be injury trouble, and Burnett has always been injury trouble) they refuse to draft the best player for fear of a few million dollars (and a stern look from the commish), the best rationale for Stewart over Johnson seems to have been to save a few million, holding Lind in the minors now might be influenced by costs 3-4 years from now. Success and failure seem to come in offsetting amounts, leaving the Jays forever stuck in third (or last this year), hoping for the breaks to go their way. They still might this year, but it's getting dimmer. The best Left fielder in the organization, both offensive and likely defensive, in is AAA, Rolen is being rushed back to the majors before he's even managed a hit in the minors (apparently), last year's closer has forgotten how to throw his other pitch (Accardo's splitter went missing last year), the franchises biggest investment spent all last year playing hurt. These are planning and coaching failures. The Jays can't afford to waste chances at all, and The Tampa series was one big wasted chance.

It's the inconsistency; I know Rogers is a corporation, and are likely spending about what they figure makes the best profit, but I just don't see the Jays as having used the financial resources effectively. They have been a middling organization with a middling payroll for a decade now. It's frustrating, because the team always seems to have a lot of useful pieces, but haven't been able to put it together. And this isn't a young team either, ready to break out. By the time Snider arrives, there's several more holes that need filling - I'm assuming Overbay's level of performance from last year and this year is the "new normal" until he shows otherwise, Stairs won't last many more years, neither will Zaun and Eckstein (in my opinion only of course).  The pitching is may be peaking now, and will need more arms soon (injuries are inevitable - look at Janssen for one). I'm still cheering for them, but every time they blow a lead, fail to score off a tiring starter and the bullpen, it's a little more frustrating.  And the last week has been damn frustrating.
stripeymonkey - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#183653) #
Hahahaha. Detroit have had an awful start. Hahahahahaha.....

Oh wait...

3RunHomer - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#183654) #

Elsewhere in the AL East ...

The surprising Orioles won again

Petey Baseball - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#183657) #
I woke up today hoping that J.P. had bit the bullet, and sacrificed his friend Gibby out of the firestorm that will surely ignite out of another mediocre start.  Instead, no action taken and I find myself agreeing with Richard Griffin, the J.P. hater himself. Wilner was saying Jeff Blair predicted May 17th as the day Gibbons would be let go if the Jays were off to less than a satisfactory start.
    Why wait? We didn't wait for Frank Thomas to start hitting, so why wait for our team to respond to this manager? By May 17th. the Jays will have played 20 more games. Even with a full lineup, this team has not had a 14-6 or 15-5 stretch of games since May of 2003. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that on May 17th, the Jays will be around .500 at best. To me, hovering around .500 in late May is worse than 10-13 in late April.  Especially when there is no track record of a team getting hot in the last four years.


greenfrog - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#183659) #
Whatever people think of Gibbons, I don't see how he can be blamed for the team's overall performance. The problem seems more fundamental than whether to pull a starter in the 6th or 7th inning, play Stewart or Stairs, McDonald or Eckstein, etc.
Lee - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#183667) #
Money spent on Halladay and Wells seems to have been well-spent, likewise money spent for the future of Rios.

Hallady, absolutely. For Rios, it may be too soon to say, but I am strongly optimistic. Wells, though? I have seen nothing thus far to make me feel any better about his extension. I would not be at all surprised if the Wells deal were eventually to be looked upon as a blunder of nearly Zito-esque proportion.
robertdudek - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#183668) #
I would not be at all surprised if the Wells deal were eventually to be looked upon as a blunder of nearly Zito-esque proportion.

Are you talking about the A's signing Zito? Or the Giants. If the latter, then the two situations are not comparable, since Zito was signed by the Giants as a free agent. Not to mention one is an outfielder and another is a pitcher, making value comparisons meaningless.
Magpie - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#183672) #
Tigers reliever Todd Jones has a small piece in The Sporting News on tipping pitches. Cito Gaston's name comes up right away, along with the Blue Jays who learned under him and took the art elsewhere.
Barry Bonnell - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#183673) #

The Blue Jays budget this year is in the $100 million range.  As far as MLB budgets go, this is not a particularly parsimonious offering. 

I know this is Batters Box where everyone is supposed to be all smart and shit. But c'mon dude. Parsimonious? Really?

CaramonLS - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#183677) #
Are you talking about the A's signing Zito? Or the Giants. If the latter, then the two situations are not comparable, since Zito was signed by the Giants as a free agent. Not to mention one is an outfielder and another is a pitcher, making value comparisons meaningless.

Yikes Dudek, I know you're a pretty smart guy, but that just blew past you.  Do you honestly think he was referring to a direct comparison?  Heck, he could have said Driefort-esqe or Chan Ho Park-esqe instead of Zito-esqe or to put it simply, a very bad contract.
robertdudek - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#183679) #
Well, we know that the Dreifort and Park contracts were bad contracts because those two guys are done like dinner, but we do not yet know whether the Zito contract will end up being as bad. It's quite possible that Zito will pitch well (you can never count out lefties, especially those who are proven inning eaters), or its even possible that 20 million will become standard for a front line type starter in the free agent market in the near future.

You may think I'm joking, but MLB has so much revenue coming in right now that we may be on the verge of yet another salary explosion.
ANationalAcrobat - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#183680) #
Kenji Johjima won't be Zaun's successor in Toronto. He would have been a free agent after 2008, however the Mariners have signed him to a three year deal, effectively blocking Jeff Clement. Clement has been crushing the ball recently (in AAA) and is expected to move to 1B/DH. Source.
John Northey - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#183688) #
Hmm.  Just checked Baseball-Reference for the pre-game (highly recommended) and noticed...
All-Time - TOR leads 163-161

Uh oh.  A sweep for the bad guys and the Royals move from a team the Jays are over 500 against to a sub-500 situation.  Dang.  Lets hope for good stuff.

scottt - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#183694) #
I checked an early betting line on the Grienke-Burnett matchup and I couldn't believe my eyes: KC a slight favourite at 1.97 to 1 (decimal odds).  With KC at home, one of the hottest pitchers in baseball on the mound and the Jays slumping bats, I would have thought it would be at least 1.7 to 1.

Clearly, someone knows that Adam Lind will be in the house tonight. :)


I think that has more to do with the Royals scoring only 70 runs so far. That's 3.18 per games while Toronto has managed 4.57 runs per game.


Ryan Day - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 08:24 PM EDT (#183697) #
With Rolen back, Diaz goes back to AAA. After spending most of the week on the bench, playing in only one game - as the DH. I'm really not sure how that benefits either the team or Diaz.
scottt - Friday, April 25 2008 @ 08:54 PM EDT (#183700) #
I'm assuming Stewart/Scutaro/McDonald will DH against lefties. Barajas will probably catch and Zaun pinch hit late in the game.
TDIB 25 April 2008 | 31 comments | Create New Account
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