Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
We have collectively tried to come up with a Manager's Box for John Gibbons.


THE MANAGER: John Gibbons

AGE: 45 (turns 46 in June)

MANAGERS FOR WHOM PLAYED IN THE MAJORS: Dave Johnson. (In the minors, he played for Bob Schaeffer, Sam Perlozzo, Terry Collins and Mike Cubbage, among others.)

CHARACTERISTICS AS A PLAYER: A thoroughly mediocre minor league catcher, drafted out of high school by the Mets in 1980 (24th round), he got two brief cups of coffee in the Show. In his first taste, he went 2-31 and struck out in more than a third of his at bats. Two years later, during the Mets 1986 championship run, he came up in August to back up Ed Hearn when Gary Carter went on the DL. He started three games behind the plate, went 4-12, and hung around when the rosters expanded. After the Mets clinched early, he got into two more games and in his last major league start he had his moment of major league glory - he went 4-4 with two doubles and his only major league homer. He batted just one more time in the majors, on the final weekend of the season, but stuck it out in AAA through 1990, when he became a roving instructor in the Mets system. He managed in the minors for seven seasons before coming to Toronto as a coach in 2001.

MANGERIAL RECORD:
         W    L    WP   Finish     Par    +/-
2004 20 30 .400 5 25 -5
2005 80 82 .494 3 78 2
2006 87 75 .537 2 76 11
2007 83 79 .512 3 83 0

TOTAL 270 266 .504 262 8


WHAT HE BRINGS TO THE BALLCLUB


IS HE AN INTENSE MANAGER OR AN EASY-TO-GET-ALONG WITH TYPE? Gibbons is a bit of both, he is generally easy to get along with and has been described as a players manager. However he does not like to be challenged, see Hillenbrand and Lilly, and he will not suffer fools gladly. Gibbons is easy to get along with as long as you stay on his good side. (T)

IS HE MORE OF AN EMOTIONAL LEADER OR A DECISION MAKER? I think he'd rather be an emotional leader - like most modern managers, he has a whole range of policies and systems in place that help him avoid having to actually make a decision. But when his hand is forced, he's been fairly quick and decisive about getting the guy he doesn't like out of the lineup and somebody else in there. (D)

IS HE MORE OF AN OPTIMIST OR A PROBLEM-SOLVER? I think he can be a little impatient, and those guys always end up having to be problem solvers. He's not much inclined to sit around and trust a guy will play as well as he did the year before. He'll try something new. (D) He will try to tinker with minor details, using success, however fleeting, to justify continued change. (AND)

HOW HE USES HIS PERSONNEL

DOES HE FAVOUR A SET LINEUP OR A ROTATION SYSTEM? He likes a set lineup. No one carries a bench large enough to truly rotate players anymore. (D)

DOES HE LIKE TO PLATOON? He's shown a willingness to platoon, which doesn't seem to occur as often in the majors currently as it used to. He platooned Reed and Cat in LF and then Reed and Stairs and will presumably be platooning Reed/Stewart with Stairs again this year. He did a decent job at keeping both Zaun and Molina happy while they were both here. Gibbons runs his platoons by the book, but he's shown a willingness to go with the hot hand, as Sparky's increased playing time in 2006 indicates. I expect Gibbons will do a relatively decent job with Stairs/Reed/Stewart, Zaun/Barajas and Eckstein/McDonald. I'd be surprised if for the first couple of months we don't see McDonald getting a couple starts a week, usually behind Halladay or another ground-ball starter. (T) He seems to look at past performance as much as anything else when deciding who will play. (AND)

DOES HE TRY TO SOLVE HIS PROBLEMS WITH PROVEN PLAYERS OR WITH YOUNGSTERS WHO STILL HAVE SOMETHING TO PROVE? HOW MANY PLAYERS HAS HE MADE REGULARS OUT OF WHO WERE NOT REGULARS BEFORE AND WHO WERE THEY? It hasn't been his call, for the most part. Russ Adams and Aaron Hill, although Hill (like Alex Rios and Gregg Zaun) had been forced into full-time duty for the first time in their careers earlier in the Season From Hell. All four remained as regulars under Gibbons. Adam Lind got a good long trial in 2007, and will probably become a regular this season. He's given chances to lots of pitchers: Gustavo Chacin, Dave Bush, Dustin McGowan, Shaun Marcum, Casey Janssen, and Jesse Litsch all got their first cracks at being rotation starters under Gibbons. (D)

DOES HE PREFER TO GO WITH GOOD OFFENSIVE PLAYERS OR DOES HE LIKE THE GLOVE MEN? In both 2006 and 2007, after starting the season as a utility infielder, John McDonald ended up taking over the shortstop job full-time. But he'll put up with defensive shortcomings elsewhere. Matt Stairs is not a good first baseman, or much of an outfielder. Most notoriously, Gibbons actually started Troy Glaus at shortstop for 8 games in 2006. (D)

DOES HE LIKE AN OFFENSE BASED ON POWER, SPEED, OR HIGH AVERAGES It's not really his roster, but he seems to like watching the ball go over the fence. (D) Manager's these days seem to have to make due with what they have been provided, or else force players to adapt to their style of manging. To his credit, Gibbons doesn't try to pigeon hole hitters into something they aren't. (AND)

DOES HE USE THE ENTIRE ROSTER OR DOES HE KEEP PEOPLE AROUND SITTING ON THE BENCH? Twenty-five years ago, this was actually a way to tell one manager from another. Now, the benches are so small that the few players who are on it inevitably get into quite a few games. (D)

DOES HE BUILD HIS BENCH AROUND YOUNG PLAYERS WHO CAN STEP INTO THE BREACH IF NEED BE OR AROUND VETERAN ROLE PLAYERS WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FUNCTIONS WITHIN A GAME? Whether or not it's the structure of the Jays roster I can't say, but the benches under Gibbons have tended to rely on veteran players at the beginning, but he is willing to play youngsters in the last couple months of the season. At the start of 2007 the three main bench bats were Stairs, McDonald and Phillips, all veterans. The year before it was Zaun, Johnson and Hinske. The year before it was Myers, Menechino and Johnson. Of the main backup catcher, infielder and outfielder, the only ones under 30 were Johnson at 28 and Hinske, who played himself out of the lineup. He is willing to give youngsters some playing time, such as Adams in 2006 (after he failed in 2005 as a starter), Lind over the course of the last couple of years and Thigpen in 2007. Hill got over 350 at-bats in 2005, but he was filling in for an injured Koskie during most of that time, I believe. This trend has continued in 2008, as Stewart/Johnson, Scutaro, McDonald and Barajas are all veterans. (T)

GAME MANAGING AND USE OF STRATEGIES

DOES HE GO FOR THE BIG INNING OFFENSE OR DOES HE LIKE TO USE THE ONE-RUN STRATEGIES? He uses the one-run strategies with caution. He will make some use of them, but he pretty clearly agrees that if you play for one run, that's all you're going to get. (D) He has recently tried using small ball strategies while the Jays have been struggling, as much to kick start the offense or struggling players as anything else. (AND)

DOES HE PINCH HIT MUCH, AND IF SO, WHEN? Generally, Gibbons uses pinch hitters more often than any other American League manager. Did anyone even suspect that this might be the case? In his three full seasons at the helm, the Blue Jays have led the league in pinch hitters used twice (2005 and 2007), and were tied for second (with New York, behind Chicago) the other time (2006.) My subjective impression is that he prefers to pinch hit later in the inning - not to get something started, but to try to cash in something. And I think he needs to get a platoon advantage out of it to make it worth the trouble. (D)

DOES HE USE THE SAC BUNT OFTEN? He came round to it a bit in 2007 - his first team didn't bunt very often (21 SH, well below average), and his 2006 team had the fewest sac hits in the majors. Last year he was right around the league average. This may largely depend on how often he has a non-hitter in his lineup. The men who have led the team in sac bunts are Ken Huckaby, John McDonald, and John McDonald. He bunted more often in 2007 because McDonald was in the lineup more often. (D) The team this year continues to creep up the sacrifice list, though most of those are from Eckstein. (AND)

DOES HE LIKE TO USE THE RUNNING GAME? Not a whole lot, but he's never had a good base stealer on the team. Vernon Wells and Alex Rios both run a little but the most stolen bases either has had in a season under Gibbons was only 17, and Russ Adams is the only player to even make it into double figures. (D) He has made much more use of the stolen base this season, with moderate success. (AND)

DOES HE DRAW THE INFIELD IN MUCH? Very rarely. Only in situations where the textbook says the infield should be drawn in and it would be obvious to anyone up to and including the City TV crew from this year's spring training broadcast. He'll draw the corners in on a player like Ichiro or Crawford, but in terms of bringing in the whole infield Gibbons plays it strictly by the book and doesn't do it very often. (T)

Well, I've been seeing him do this a few times this season, and quite early in the ballgame - third inning, fourth inning of scoreless games. I've only see him try it with one out at the time - I don't know if he'd try it with no outs. (D)

IN WHAT CIRCUMSTANCE WILL HE ISSUE AN INTENTIONAL WALK? This ought to be investigated. In 2005, he issued 29 IBB - that was a bit below the league average. The next year, he just went crazy with them - the 2006 Jays issued 56 intentional passes, just three behind the league leading White Sox. Last year, he returned to doling them out sparingly, just 34 over the course of the year, a bit below the league average. This year, he's handing them out like candy again, and the Jays lead the league. For your contemplative enjoyment, I've attached a Data Table detailing the circumstances of all 34 intentional walks issued in 2007. (D)

DOES HE HIT AND RUN VERY OFTEN? Not as much as he'd like to - he hasn't had great H&R talent on his team. There's always been one or two guys who were too slow to start on the bases under any circumstances, and he's had a lot of hitters who swing and miss, or prefer to work the count, or both. But the team has been very vulnerable these past few years to the GDP - Gibbons is very aware of it, and has tried to force some basepath motion, even though he didn't really have the best people around for the job. It's one of the reasons I think he'd like to see Hill move into the top of the order - Hill can make contact, and he's very vulnerable to hitting into GDPs as well. I think we're going to see him start the runners, with Hill at the plate, much more often. (D)

ARE THERE ANY UNIQUE OR IDIOSYNCRATIC STRATEGIES THAT HE PARTICULARLY LIKES? Well, giving intentional walks to hitters of the quality of Tony Pena Jr seems pretty unusual to me. (D) Joe Posnarski also.... (AND)

HANDLING THE PITCHING STAFF

DOES HE LIKE POWER PITCHERS OR PREFER TO GO WITH THE PEOPLE WHO CAN PUT THE BALL IN PLAY? I think a guy who throws hard gets a bit more rope. (D)

DOES HE STAY WITH THE STARTER OR GO TO THE BULLPEN QUICKLY? He'd stick with Roy Halladay right into the ninth inning. But otherwise, he's going to the pen unless his starter is working on a no-hitter. Or maybe a shutout. (D) Or a win, though I don't think he is as bad with this as he was at the beginning. (AND)

DOES HE LIKE THE FOUR MAN OR THE FIVE MAN ROTATION? Five man, but who doesn't these days? What Gibbons has shown he's willing to do, on multiple occasions during the past few years, is to skip the fifth man in the rotation to keep Halladay pitching on regular rest. I seem to recall that a few times he run the fifth guy out there after Halladay to keep the other starters on regular rest, but that most of the time he just skips his start and keeps 1-4 on regular rest. I expect this trend to continue this year, even if the fifth starter is doing better than Towers did over the last couple of seasons. (T)

I've tracked this each of the past two years, and I concur. Gibbons does this quite regularly. Not always - sometimes he decides that Halladay will benefit from the extra day. But as a rule, if an off-day gives him a chance to skip his 5th starter and go right back to Halladay, he takes advantage. (D)

DOES HE USE THE ENTIRE STAFF OR DOES HE TRY TO GET FIVE OR SIX PEOPLE TO DO MOST OF THE WORK? In his first two full seasons, Gibbons used more relievers than an average AL manager - he went to the bullpen 482 times in 2006, which will get a lot of pitchers involved. He cut back on that in 2007. He went to the pen less than other AL managers, which meant that the seventh man in his bullpen (which was generally Zambrano, de Jong, or Towers) could go a long time without getting into a game. (D)

HOW LONG WILL HE STAY WITH A STARTER WHO IS STRUGGLING? Until the bullpen is ready, unless it's Halladay on the mound. In that event, he sort of works on a case-by-case basis - sometimes he'll stay with Doc, sometimes he goes to the pen. Burnett, on a good day, will also get a little more rope. But otherwise, he's planning to get the bullpen involved. Every game. (D)

ARE THERE ANY PARTICULAR TYPES OF PITCHERS OF WHOM HE IS FOND? Not that I've noticed. (D)

IS THERE ANYTHING UNIQUE ABOUT HIS HANDLING OF PITCHERS? He uses a lot of relievers, and he has enough awareness of this to try to avoid overusing them. Gibbons tries much harder than most AL managers to avoid using a reliever three days in a row, for example. Of course, in view of the fact that Janssen's been lost for 2008, after Ryan missed almost all of 2007, one would have to say that his efforts have been somewhat in vain. (D)

WHAT IS HIS STRONGEST POINT AS A MANAGER? His players seem to respect him, which is by far the most important thing for any manager. Gibbons has no interest in using the game to show how clever he is - the decisions he makes are almost bland in being a general expression of either common sense or conventional wisdom. He doesn't really try bring his own vision to the table - he functions as a dugout extension of the GM. Whch makes him a pretty typical and conventional modern manager. (D)

IF THERE WERE NO PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, WHAT WOULD THIS MANAGER PROBABLY BE DOING? Surely he'd be dubbing Boomhauer on "King of the Hill," allowing Mike Judge to concentrate on Hank.


And one bonus DATA TABLE!! In which we itemize the intentional walks Gibbons ordered in 2007

                                                                                                     Runs After
Date Opponent Score Inn Outs Runners Pitcher At Bat On Deck Result IBB

12-Apr Det 2-5 7 2 2 Accardo Guillen Casey groundout 0
19-Apr Bos 1-1 6 2 2 Halladay Drew Varitek flyout 0
20-Apr at Bal 4-4 9 1 2 Zambrano Roberts Mora walk, RBI single 1
28-Apr Tex 1-2 5 1 2 Chacin Sosa Blalock RBI single, flyout, groundout 1
28-Apr Tex 8-8 10 1 13 Tallet Sosa Blalock SacFly, (Janssen) lineout 1
1-May at Cle 3-7 6 1 2 Tallet Hafner Martinez RBI double, K, groundout 1
2-May at Cle 1-1 3 0 23 Zambrano Hafner Martinez forceout, sacfly, walk (Towers) 1
3-May at Cle 4-2 3 2 3 McGowan Hafner Martinez RBI single, walk, groundout 1
9-May Bos 0-1 1 2 2 Ohka Drew Lowell walk, popout 0
23-May at Bal 2-3 7 2 23 Downs Tejada Huff 2 run single 2
30-May NY 5-6 9 1 2 Downs Jeter Matsui forceout, RBI single (Wolfe) 4
3-Jun CWS 0-3 3 2 2 Marcum Pierzynski Crede flyOut 0
5-Jun TB 5-9 6 1 2 Frasor Pena Wigginton safe on error, K, popout 1
7-Jun TB 3-3 9 2 2 Accardo Pena Wigginton walk, 2 run single, groundout 2
11-Jun at SF 3-4 6 0 0 Tallet Bonds Durham flyout, flyout, popout 0
12-Jun at SF 0-1 1 1 2 Burnett Bonds Durham K, flyout 0
12-Jun at SF 2-3 7 1 2 Downs Bonds Durham groundout, lineout 0
21-Jun LAD 3-2 8 1 23 Janssen Gonzalez Martin 2 run double, RBI single 6
26-Jun at Min 1-1 12 2 23 Tallet Redmond Tyner pinch hit RBI single (Cirillo) 1
14-Jul at Bos 0-3 3 2 2 McGowan Ramirez Youkilis groundout 0
14-Jul at Bos 4-7 6 1 23 Tallet Ortiz Ramirez (Wolfe) sacfly, RBI single 2
17-Jul at NY 2-2 10 1 2 Janssen Posada Cano RBI single 1
30-Jul at TB 4-4 10 2 2 Wolfe Pena Young single, runner out at home 0
7-Aug NY 0-3 3 2 2 Towers Cano Phillips flyout 0
19-Aug Bal 0-1 3 1 23 Halladay Tejada Millar RBI groundout, groundout 1
3-Sep at Bos 1-4 3 1 3 Litsch Lowell Drew SacFly, groundout 1
4-Sep at Bos 0-0 3 2 2 Halladay Ortiz Lowell flyOut 0
11-Sep NY 2-8 6 1 23 Tallet Rodriguez Matsui popout, flyout 0
16-Sep Bal 6-6 10 2 2 Tallet Roberts Redman groundout 0
18-Sep Bos 1-2 5 2 2 Burnett Lowell Drew K 0
22-Sep at NY 11-11 11 0 2 Towers Giambi Cano flyout, K, RBI single 1
27-Sep at Bal 5-7 7 1 2 Wolfe Huff Mora K, groundout 0
28-Sep TB 0-0 3 2 2 McGowan Pena Norton flyout 0
29-Sep TB 1-1 5 2 2 Litsch Pena Upton groundout 0
There are always occasions when this blows up on you: four of these games ended with the other team getting a walkoff hit after the intentional walk. Those four hits are marked in italics - on two occasions, it was actually the man brought to the plate by the intentional pass who delivered the game-winning blow: Jeff Cirillo (batting for the scheduled hitter, Jason Tyner) against Tallet on June 26, and Robinson Cano against Janssen on July 17.

Two of these innings blew up completely after the IBB: Janssen against the Dodgers, and Downs-Wolfe against the Yankees (the HA! game).

One thing I think is pretty clear from this table - last year, the main thing prompting Gibbons to issue an intentional walk was the man coming up to the plate. There is no one even remotely like Tony Pena Jr to be found here. Carlos Pena received more of them than anyone else (it's hard to walk David Ortiz with Manny in the on-deck circle); Travis Hafner, Barry Bonds, and Miguel Tejada each collected 3 IBBs.

It's fun to see Gibbons make an adjustment as the season goes on: twice early in the year, he walked J.D. Drew on purpose, once to get to Varitek and once to get to Lowell. Later on, Drew having struggled all year, he walked Lowell twice in order to pitch to Drew. Gibbons usually, though not always, picked up a platoon advantage while issuing his free passes, but not on those two occasions when Lowell was walked to bring up Drew - the pitchers involved were Litsch and Burnett. He was just seriously disrespecting J.D. Drew (and acknowledging that Mike Lowell was absolutely killing the Blue Jays in 2007 - he hit ..333/.380/.667 with 6 HR and 17 RBI in 17 games against Toronto last season.)

Most intentional walks are issued by a team that is trailing in the game: Gibbons issued 1 while ahead in the game, 12 with the score tied. The other 21 came with the Jays behind. The most unconventional involved Barry Bonds, who was walked intentionally to lead off the sixth inning, with the Jays behind by a run. (But I'll bet that what actually happened is that Tallet first fell behind 2-0 or 3-0, before handing out the free pass.)

The other thing that strikes me - Gibbons seems to issue them in bunches. It's as if he'll hand out five or six of them over a ten day period, and then lose interest in the tactic for the next few weeks.
John Gibbons Manager's Box | 20 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
FranklyScarlet - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#183974) #
IS HE AN INTENSE MANAGER OR AN EASY-TO-GET-ALONG WITH TYPE? Gibbons is a bit of both, he is generally easy to get along with and has been described as a players manager. However he does not like to be challenged, see Hillenbrand and Lilly, and he will not suffer fools gladly. Gibbons is easy to get along with as long as you stay on his good side. (T)

Thomas

I'll offer that John is one of the better men on the planet, and men in the business who know him, will vouch for the fact that it takes a whole heck-of-a-lot to get him riled up.
Shea's nonsense in the clubhouse and Lilly's unprofessional behavior on the mound BOTH warranted his no-tolerance reaction.

Staying on his good side is easy if you go about your business and put the team's success ahead of your own numbers.  Play hard and leave your ego at the door.
CaramonLS - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#183976) #
Gibby confuses me.

I generally like his handling of the pitching staff for the most part and his decisions to use pinch hitters...

However, his calls for hit and runs, bunts, and lineup construction have really irked me.

He seems to be both an optimist and a reactionary at the same time too.  Guys like Jason Frasor just aren't relied upon at all anymore - and seemingly never will be, where as he'll stick with someone in the batting order (like Wells batting cleanup/3rd) for a really extended period of time even though it is clear he is hurting the team (07).  I think 'inconsistent' would be the right word for his style.

Original Ryan - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#183981) #
A thoroughly mediocre minor league catcher, drafted out of high school by the Mets in 1980 (24th round)

Slight correction: Gibbons was selected in the 1st round, 24th overall.  Terry Francona and Billy Beane were the two guys selected immediately ahead of him.
John Northey - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#183982) #
Now that is weird.  2 managers and a GM picked back-to-back-to-back.  Sure says something about the draft when you look at that one - Kelly Gruber was the 2nd best player in that draft after Darryl Strawberry.  7 guys didn't even reach the majors out of the 26 picked, including the Jays #2 overall pick (ugh).  Different standards for the draft back then and a lot less attention.

Most interesting to me is how his plus/minus is so good overall.  A weak rookie season then his teams performed as good or better than expected for the next 3 seasons.  Lets hope something good happens this year to keep that streak alive.

GregJP - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#183986) #
Just wondering, does Pat Tabler realize that he's stupid?
Sherrystar - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#183989) #

A few more displays like this from the offense, and Gibby will be looking for a new job.

 

Flex - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#184003) #
Just wondering, does Pat Tabler realize that he's stupid?

Come on, we can do better than that on this site.

scottt - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#184012) #
Whatever happened to killing lefties?

There isn't much a manager can do if nobody will even get on base.

Stewart is the new DH against lefties? Ouch. I'd rather start MacDonald and DH Eckstein.

Craig B - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#184013) #
You should prefer that... over the last couple of seasons Johnny Mac's a better hitter against lefties than Stewart.
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#184014) #
Lester pitched a nice game tonight.

He was one of the numerous talented high school pitchers (Kazmir, Cole Hamels, Matt Cain etc.) that were systematically disregarded by Toronto in the 2002 draft where, like the first several Ricciardi drafts, all of the high picks were used on college players. Lester easily has more value now than all of Ricciaridi's 2002 draft class put together. Boston had no pick at all in the first round that year and drafted later yet still obtained more talent by far than Ricciardi who used his first two picks on a career minorleague infielder and a AAA pitcher and obtained nothing else at all in the draft.
Craig B - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#184015) #
Dave Bush helped to land Overbay, and Adam Peterson landed Hillenbrand who turned in an All-Star season and then turned into Jeremy Accardo.  So the Jays are still comfortably ahead of the Red Sox in the 2002 draft, who managed to land Lester and Brandon Moss and a big pile of bupkis.  Mind you, I agree that Lester has a good shot at pulliung the Red Sox ahead eventually.
Mylegacy - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 11:03 PM EDT (#184016) #

What has me so depressed about tonight's debacle isn't just the loss it's the horrid play of Snider at AA. Our one glimmer of hope, our one bright jewel in a wasteland of mediocrity - and - he's slowly, inexorably - going down the shitter - one strikeout at a time. The only good news that can come from this is that his arm/elbow/shoulder/whatever is falling off and it can - eventually - be repaired, letting him return to the skies.

Sigh - I hates, I purely hates, Boston. 

ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#184017) #
I said that Lester is worth more than JP's 2002 draft class put together and that is correct. It doesn't matter if someone is stupid enough to trade a useful player for Russ Adams, Russ Adams is essentially worthless and was a competely wasted draft pick when Ricciardi had abundant talent available which he systematically ignored because they were high school players. Dave Bush can't make the Brewers, they've sent him to AAA.

Moreover, the days whey anyone assigns trade value to Ricciardi's college draft picks in trades has long passed. I would say that Zach Jackson was the last one of those to net anything in a trade. So trying to justify Ricciardi's poor drafting by saying he was unable to unload his picks for something more valuable, doesn't really address the problem.

Finally, if you think that Boston would 'comfortably' trade Lester for Lyle Overbay and Jeremy Accardo, I think you're highly overestimating their value in any event. Overbay is of no more value to Boston than Sean Casey, and about ten times more expensive, while Accardo would be no more than the fourth or fifth player in any deal for Lester.
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 11:11 PM EDT (#184018) #
Sorry, I meant 'able to unload' as opposed to 'unable to unload'.
Shane - Tuesday, April 29 2008 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#184020) #

Haven't heard Ricciardi with his Quote'ster hat on in a while. Here's his retort to Jeff Blair in regards to so much fan interest in signing Barry Bonds:

"That's great. I already had to release Frank Thomas. Bonds might make it two Hall of Famers I'd have to release in the same year."

- From Blairs' blog

ayjackson - Wednesday, April 30 2008 @ 01:46 AM EDT (#184023) #

He was one of the numerous talented high school pitchers (Kazmir, Cole Hamels, Matt Cain etc.) that were systematically disregarded by Toronto in the 2002 draft where, like the first several Ricciardi drafts, all of the high picks were used on college players.

There were 10 college hitters selected in the first and supplemental first round that year.  3 can be said to have "made it" in the Bigs - Khalil Greene, Nick Swisher and Mark Teahan.

There were 13 college pitchers taken in the first and supplemental first.  4 have had some success in MLB - Jeff Francis, Joe Saunders, Jeremy Guthrie and Joe Blanton.

There were 9 HS hitters selected.  5 have had some measure of success - BJ Upton, Prince Fielder, Jeremy Hermida, James Loney and Jeff Francoeur.

There were 8 HS pitchers selected.  5 have had success at the MLB level - Adam Loewen, Zach Grienke, Scott Kazmir, Cole Hamels and Matt Cain.

From that 2002 first (and supplemental) round, the success rate was greater for both HS pitchers and hitters over their college counterparts.  Further, the highschoolers (subjectively) look to have far more promise for so far in their MLB careers.  I think (again subjectively) that the eight best players from those first fourty picks were highshoolers - Upton, Fielder, Hamels, Cain, Kazmir, Hermida, Loney and Francouer.

Magpie - Wednesday, April 30 2008 @ 04:45 AM EDT (#184028) #
Overbay is of no more value to Boston than Sean Casey, and about ten times more expensive, while Accardo would be no more than the fourth or fifth player in any deal for Lester.

Yeah, but who cares? Overbay and Accardo are quite a bit more valuable to Toronto than Lester (who's not quite ready for Cooperstown, tonight notwithstanding.)
greenfrog - Wednesday, April 30 2008 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#184035) #
I've criticized JP often (and I think it's probably time for a new GM), but his drafting is going to look a lot better if Purcey continues the way he's been going. Hill, Marcum, Janssen, Purcey, Lind, Snider, Cecil, the current crop of A-ball prospects...it could be worse.

I wouldn't worry about Snider. He's raked at every level, including the Arizona Fall League. He's extremely young for AA and has only played a handful of games. Even Longoria started the season in a minor-league slump. It may take some time for him to adjust, but Snider will come around.
John Northey - Wednesday, April 30 2008 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#184039) #
The draft is always entertaining.  Lets check the 2nd year JP drafted - 2003.
First round pick - Aaron Hill
Hill's rank vs other first rounders that year...
AB: #1 by over 300 AB's
HR: 4th
OPS: 8th of 15 (minimum 100 AB's) or 5th of 6 (minimum 500 AB's)
SB: 4th
I use these categories as they are what B-R has easily set up.

College... Pitchers: 5 of 7 reach majors, 4 decent players
High School... 2 of 6 reach majors, 1 good (Chad Billingsley), 1 not yet (John Danks).

College... Hitters: 10 of 14 reach majors, 7 decent players
High School... Hitters: 6 of 10 reach majors, 4 decent players (stretching it for 4)

For hitters the only guy drafted in the first round post-Hill that catches my eye as maybe better is Conor Jackson (college) for Arizona.  For pitchers it would be Chad Cordero (college) and maybe Chad Billingsley.  Not bad when you think about it.

In the end, I'd say 2002 and 2003 show us that teams are doing much better now than in the early 80's when the Jays regularly tossed out their picks on the Augie Schmidt's of the world and 12 of 29 drafted didn't make the majors (8 of the first 29 from '02 haven't reached yet, 11 of the first 29 in '03).  Also of note: 2 of the top 5 from '02 haven't made it to the majors for a cup of coffee yet, 3 of the first 6 from '03 so maybe teams are still being dumb.
Craig B - Thursday, May 01 2008 @ 09:20 AM EDT (#184111) #

I said that Lester is worth more than JP's 2002 draft class put together and that is correct.

And I said that Toronto has to date derived considerably more value from that draft, which is also correct.  So everyone is right, and now everyone can be happy.

John Gibbons Manager's Box | 20 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.