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I found something indescribably ancient on my computer, and I'm going to share it with all of you!

What brought this on? The discussion of Shawn Green, which turned, as it often does around these parts, to his early days with the team and his difficulty in winning Cito Gaston's trust. Because, Cito, as local mythology would have it, had no use for young players.

John Northey was quick to puncture that bit of revisionism, and others joined in. We all like to talk about Cito. Those were good times. October baseball and all. I had something to add myself. And I also had a memory of researching this very issue... long, long ago. When I still had hair upon my head.

And buried in an obscure folder on my hard drive, having somehow survived the migration across several generations of computers, I came across an ancient text file.

It was a Manager's Box for Cito Gaston, prepared at some point during the 1995 season.

The concept of the Manager's Box was developed by Bill James in one of the old Baseball Abstracts - as I recollect, he wanted to advance the discussion of managers by identifying some specific things to focus on. Something, in mid-1995, prompted me to draw one up for Gaston. I have no idea why. Here's what I did - second thoughts, almost thirteen years later, are in italics.

THE MANAGER: Cito Gaston

AGE: 51 (Gaston was born on March 17, 1944 - he'll be 64 in two weeks.)

MANAGERS FOR WHOM PLAYED IN THE MAJORS: Billy Hitchcock, Preston Gomez, Don Zimmer, John McNamara, Clyde King, Connie Ryan, Dave Bristol, Bobby Cox, Chuck Tanner. (Gaston always said that if he had any model as a manager , it was Preston Gomez, who was a long-time Dodger coach who had the thankless job of being the first manager of the San Diego Padres.)

CHARACTERISTICS AS A PLAYER: An outfielder on some of the worst National League teams of his time, he had one inexplicably brilliant season in 1970 when he hit .318 with 29 HRs. He never did anything even remotely close to that either before or after, except at A Ball. He played on six teams that lost 100 games, and another three that lost more than 90. He was Henry Aaron's roommate in 1975, and it was Aaron who urged him to become a hitting instructor in the Braves organization.

MANAGERIAL RECORD
Team    Year      Par      W       L      Pct.   + or -
Tor 1989 68 77 49 .611 9
Tor 1990 86 86 76 .531 0
Tor 1991 68 72 57 .558 4
Tor 1992 86 96 66 .593 10
Tor 1993 89 95 67 .586 6
Tor 1994 64 55 60 .478 -9
Tor 1995 76 56 88 .389 -20
Tor 1996 74 74 88 .457 0
Tor 1997 71 72 85 .459 1

TOTAL 683 636 .518 1

(PAR was a way of setting an expectation for the club based on its performance in the previous two or three seasons - you took the previous season twice, the year before once and used the cumulative winning percentage of those three seasons to set an expectation for the upcoming year.)

WHAT HE BRINGS TO THE BALL CLUB

IS HE AN INTENSE MANAGER OR AN EASY-TO-GET-ALONG WITH TYPE? He is easy enough to get along with. He is so physically intimidating (he's listed at 6-4, 220 and he looks quite a bit bigger than that) that his players are probably rather grateful that he is easy to get along with. Still, he gains and maintains, almost effortlessly, a remarkable degree of respect and loyalty from all his players, young and old, both system products and guys from other organizations. All you have to do is play hard for him, and respect the people around you. He notably does this with players who had major battles with other managers. Devon White, who battled with Doug Rader, says he owes Cito his career. Gaston and George Bell were downright fond of one another. Todd Stottlemyre sent an open letter to the Toronto papers after he left the team in which he said that he would jump out of an airplane anytime Cito asked him to. We hear this sort of stuff from his ballplayers all the time, and don't think much of it anymore. However, Gaston will not get along with a player who he doesn't think is serious about their work, and absolutely refuses to put up with them. His response is always the same, from Junior Felix (wouldn't take instruction) and Kelly Gruber (dreadful work habits) to David Wells (wouldn't get in shape or take directions) and Derek Bell (wouldn't take the game seriously). He gets rid of them, and doesn't much care what he gets in return. I don't think Pat Gillick was the guy who wanted to trade Derek Bell for Darrin Jackson. But Gaston wanted Derek out of his life. (And at that particular moment, being the man who had just managed the team to a World Series title, Gaston had the clout to get what he wanted. David Wells got his unconditional release that same spring.)

IS HE MORE OF AN EMOTIONAL LEADER OR A DECISION MAKER? He is clearly an emotional leader.

IS HE MORE OF AN OPTIMIST OR A PROBLEM-SOLVER. He's definitely a optimist. In 1995 we're seeing the downside of that. The season just got away from him while he waited for players (Hentgen, Olerud, Molitor, Guzman) to work out their problems. In particular, he is always optimistic about the hitters who have produced in the past for him; he'll keep running them out there through their slumps if he thinks the player can still do the job. He stuck with Maldonado in 1992 through a horrible slump even though Derek Bell was back off the DL and ready to go. He'll pull the plug much quicker on a pitcher; he decided Stieb (1992) and Darwin (1995) were both finished after about 10 starts, and he dumped Mike Flanagan in 1990 even quicker than that. (Of course, I strongly suspect that, with a few exceptions - Henke, Hentgen, maybe some others - Gaston is one of those baseball guys who just doesn't like pitchers as a species. As Yogi Berra said, they're all liars and crybabies anyhow.) Gaston is a problem solver in the sense that he will attempt to address a specific problem that a player is having. He spent his formative years as a hitting instructor, and I suspect he gets a great deal of personal satisfaction out of teaching.

HOW HE USES HIS PERSONNEL

DOES HE FAVOUR A SET LINEUP OR A ROTATION SYSTEM? He most definitely likes a set lineup.

DOES HE LIKE TO PLATOON? Not that much, really. He will platoon, to some extent, the young players just coming into the league. I think he likes to let them start their careers hitting with the platoon advantage, so they can enjoy some success and develop their confidence. (Olerud, Hill, Myers, Green were all platooned when they came up.) This is something that the Blue Jays organization has done ever since Bobby Cox brought Gaston to town: Barfield, Bell, McGriff, Fielder, and Gruber all spent time as platoon regulars before getting a whole job. Gaston doesn't make nearly as much use of the set platoon arrangements that both Cox and Williams had before him. Gaston did develop a nice platoon arrangement in 1989 with Lee and Liriano at 2B (both switch-hitters, but Lee started against LH pitchers, Liriano against RH pitchers); but he gave the whole job to Lee in mid-1990. He never did use Borders/Myers as a strict platoon arrangement like Whitt/Martinez. He liked Borders better, and played him more.

DOES HE TRY TO SOLVE HIS PROBLEMS WITH PROVEN PLAYERS OR WITH YOUNGSTERS WHO STILL HAVE SOMETHING TO PROVE? HOW MANY PLAYERS HAS HE MADE REGULARS OUT OF WHO WERE NOT REGULARS BEFORE AND WHO WERE THEY? He likes to see that kid come up from AA and step into the lineup. He has made regulars out of Pat Borders, Greg Myers (platoon), John Olerud, Nelson Liriano, Junior Felix, Glenallen Hill (platoon), Ed Sprague, Alex Gonzalez, Shawn Green, and Sandy Martinez; he tried to make regulars of Derek Bell, Carlos Delgado, and Randy Knorr. That's 15 players in less than seven seasons, most of which were spent in close pennant races. By my count, Bobby Cox made first-time regulars of five players in four years: Upshaw, Fernandez, Iorg (platoon), Bell, Barfield; Jimy Williams three players in less than four years: Gruber, McGriff, Fielder (platoon). Gaston has also made rotation starters out of Todd Stottlemyre, John Cerutti, David Wells, Juan Guzman, Pat Hentgen, and is trying to the same with Edwin Hurtado. Cox gave the first shot at the rotation to Jim Gott and Jimmy Key; Williams to Jeff Musselman. So despite Gaston's local rep as a guy who plays veterans, I think you would have to say that he like to play the kids.

DOES HE PREFER TO GO WITH GOOD OFFENSIVE PLAYERS OR DOES HE LIKE THE GLOVE MEN? He likes complete players who will form a set lineup for him. In many ways, Gaston is reminiscent of the Cincinnati version of Sparky Anderson, and he has been criticized in much the same way, i.e. "anybody could win with that lineup". However, except at catcher, he will not play a man who does not hit, and in the past he's been willing to put up with defensive shortcomings if necessary (his 1990 outfield was George Bell, Mookie Wilson, and Junior Felix.) But as the years roll by, he seems to be growing less tolerant of defensive weaknesses. Especially behind the plate - his problem with Randy Knorr was with his defensive performance (which was, indeed, dreadful).

DOES HE LIKE AN OFFENSE BASED ON POWER, SPEED, OR HIGH AVERAGES. Power and high averages. His idea of a rally is single-double-single-homer. He understands the importance of getting on base, but he wants his hitters to be aggressive and put the bat on the ball. Gaston's always trying to get Olerud to be more aggressive and pull the ball more often. He doesn't want his hitters reacting to what's offered; he wants them to force the action. His approach hasn't really changed the Toronto offense much since he took the managing job, but after all he did spend the previous eight years coaching the Toronto hitters (and receiving buckets of praise for it from fans, media, and players). I don't think he's all that interested in the running game, although you have to like the way his teams run (they steal as often as anybody without getting caught nearly as much). He has two guys who are really fast on the bases (White and Alomar) and two guys who are really smart on the bases (Carter and Molitor). They can do what they like, and no one else is allowed to run.

DOES HE USE THE ENTIRE ROSTER OR DOES HE KEEP PEOPLE AROUND SITTING ON THE BENCH? He uses the front end of his roster as much as he can; he often has one or two players who barely get even 100 ABs in a season.

DOES HE BUILD HIS BENCH AROUND YOUNG PLAYERS WHO CAN STEP INTO THE BREACH IF NEED BE OR AROUND VETERAN ROLE PLAYERS WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FUNCTIONS WITHIN A GAME. If he has young players, they're generally in the lineup. His bench consists of veteran players who have a function within the season (not the game) and that function is to spell the regular from time to time. When he took over in 1989, he had Tommy Lawless who wasn't much good for anything but pinch running. Gaston gave up on keeping a player for that role in mid-1990. He clearly believes that a young player needs to play, and that an older player is best suited for handling the 150 or so ABs that is about all a reserve on his bench can generally hope for. People like Tabler, Coles, Huff, Maldonado.

GAME MANAGING AND USE OF STRATEGIES

DOES HE GO FOR THE BIG INNING OFFENSE OR DOES HE LIKE TO USE THE ONE-RUN STRATEGIES? He's a big-inning manager all the way. He doesn't bunt much, and while his teams generally steal a lot of bases, its usually just two or three players who account for almost all of his running game. He's got some terrific percentage base stealers, and he lets them pick their spots. The rest of the lineup will not run at all.

DOES HE PINCH HIT MUCH, AND IF SO, WHEN? He pinch hits less than anyone in baseball, mainly because he almost always has his nine best hitters in the lineup. He almost never uses a pinch hitter before the 8th inning. I can remember him letting Alfredo Griffin bat for himself with two out and two on in the 7th inning, trailing by four runs (incredibly, it WORKED; Griffin blooped a base hit and drove in the runners, and when his spot came up again in the ninth inning, with the team down by a run this time, out came the pinch hitter.)

DOES HE USE THE SAC BUNT OFTEN? Nope. He'll bunt late in a tie game, and occasionally with the bottom of his lineup earlier on. But it still adds up to very seldom. I almost get the feeling that the only reason he's bunting sometimes is just so the other team can't take it for granted that he won't.

DOES HE LIKE TO USE THE RUNNING GAME? He's got nothing against it. White, Alomar, Molitor, and Carter are all terrific percentage base stealers, and he lets them run at their own discretion. But they don't run as much as you might expect. He wants to see the batter advance the runners, and he does not like his base stealers taking the bat out of their hands.

DOES HE DRAW THE INFIELD IN MUCH? More than you would expect. I can't explain it - it seems strange for a big-inning manager. I think he just hates to give something away. Or he hates to play from behind.

IN WHAT CIRCUMSTANCE WILL HE ISSUE AN INTENTIONAL WALK? Only when the guy at the plate scares the devil out of him, and even then only when he doesn't have his bullpen ace on the mound (look at how often he had Henke walk someone on purpose - basically, never). He only walks the really big hitters. He likes to get a platoon advantage while he's at it, but he doesn't seem to care whether or not it sets up a double play. The hitter is always the key element. He absolutely will not allow Frank Thomas (or, before him, George Brett) to beat him. This year, Thomas went for 2-27 against Toronto with 10 walks and 1 HR (it tied a game at 1-1 in the 7th, and came on a 3-0 fastball from Leiter). After 1995, he will probably grant Albert Belle the same respect.

DOES HE HIT AND RUN VERY OFTEN? Not at all; he has a team of free swingers, who strike out a lot, and they are collectively lousy at the hit-and-run. So they don't use it. What often looks like a hit and run is simply the batter swinging at a pitch during a SB attempt. Gaston does not have his players take pitches so the runner can steal. If a hitter thinks he can hit a pitch, Gaston wants him to try to hit it.

ARE THERE ANY UNIQUE OR IDIOSYNCRATIC STRATEGIES THAT HE PARTICULARLY LIKES. No. (But as Caramon reminds us, Gaston was notorious for stealing signs and catching the opposing pitcher tipping his pitches. Finding new ways to gain a competitive advantage - is it strategy or tactics?)

HANDLING THE PITCHING STAFF

DOES HE LIKE POWER PITCHERS OR PREFER TO GO WITH THE PEOPLE WHO CAN PUT THE BALL IN PLAY? He likes power pitchers. When he took over, his rotation consisted of Dave Stieb and four (four!) left-handed finesse pitchers. Within a year, he had dumped two of the lefties (Musselman and Flanagan) and got David Wells and Stottlemyre into the rotation. He did not like having Tom Candiotti in his rotation, and he has stuck with Guzman from Day One. Jimmy Key went to the bullpen in the 1992 post-season, while Guzman stayed in the rotation.

DOES HE STAY WITH THE STARTER OR GO TO THE BULLPEN QUICKLY. Well, he stays with the starter longer than most managers, but he always gets to his bullpen eventually. His hook is slow but you can depend on it coming. His 1990 staff had 6 complete games between them. That was different in 1995; at one point in August, he had a bullpen consisting of Tony Castillo and five kids who had less than 15 ML appearances.

DOES HE LIKE THE FOUR MAN OR THE FIVE MAN ROTATION. He's a five man rotation manager all the way, particularly since Galen Cisco replaced Al Widmar as the pitching coach. Widmar liked a four man rotation (Toronto used one until 1983), and Widmar always liked to go to a four man rotation in September. Gaston went along with that in 1990, didn't like the results, and hasn't tried it since.

DOES HE USE THE ENTIRE STAFF OR DOES HE TRY TO GET FIVE OR SIX PEOPLE TO DO MOST OF THE WORK. He uses his entire staff, and he likes clearly defining their roles on the staff. He likes to have a closer, a one-inning setup guy, two interchangeable middle men (so he doesn't have to use either on consecutive days) and a guy who can come in early if the starter explodes or pick up miscellaneous innings. He doesn't carry a lefty specialist in his pen; he has Castillo now, but he's never used him in that Honeycutt-type role (this was before we had the term LOOGY, as you can see!). On this team, Castillo's just another of the pitchers in the pen. When Bob Macdonald was here, he functioned more as a junkman than lefty specialist.

HOW LONG WILL HE STAY WITH A STARTER WHO IS STRUGGLING? Depends on the pitcher, of course, but he'll usually give his starter a chance to get out of trouble, especially if its his veteran ace. He really doesn't like getting pitchers up in the bullpen unless they're definitely going into the game, and he sometimes can get caught if his starter loses it suddenly. If his starter gives up five runs in the second, and there's no time to stop it (this year, Darwin gave up five runs on seven pitches after getting the first two outs of the inning) Gaston is quite likely to send him back out for the third. He also seems to prefer changing pitchers between innings. (This would change over the years - Gaston seemed to become less decisive about handling pitchers in his final few years here. There was much more unnecessary bullpen activity, more slow hooks, and more quick hooks. He may no longer have known who he could count on anymore.)

ARE THERE ANY PARTICULAR TYPES OF PITCHERS OF WHOM HE IS FOND? Right handed closers with 95 MPH fastballs and great control... I guess everyone likes them, though. Within the organization, he is regarded as the guy who supported Woody Williams last year, and Hurtado this year. What they have in common, I couldn't tell you.

IS THERE ANYTHING UNIQUE ABOUT HIS HANDLING OF PITCHERS? Not really; he does with the pitchers what he does with the rest of the team. He sorts out the roles, and he looks at the kids. He'll always take a good look at a rookie. He brought up Darren Hall to be the closer in 1994, although Hall had never even pitched in the majors. He's done some impressive things over the years. Gaston turned a reluctant David Wells into a starter in 1990 (Wells enjoyed his time in the bullpen and wasn't sure about becoming a starter again); if Wells had been serious about conditioning he'd still be here. The first thing Gaston did upon getting the job in 1989 was to bring order to the bullpen, which was a utterly chaotic mess when he took over. By the end of the year, he had sorted out the arms, defined their jobs (Henke closes, Wells and Ward set him up) and it was terrific. He also put a stop to Jimy Williams' endless rotation/bullpen shuffle (Williams sent Dave Stieb to the bullpen in 1986, 1987, and 1988, Jim Clancy went to the pen in 1988, and Cerutti went back and forth non-stop all three seasons under Williams.)

WHAT IS HIS STRONGEST POINT AS A MANAGER? Easy - his players love him and will charge through walls for him. His actual handling of the game and the lineup is conventional enough; he certainly doesn't see his role as being a chess-playing strategist. He wants to do what he can to help his players so that they can go out and win the ball game. He operates as a teacher, a motivator, and positive-thinking psychologist. To my mind, repeating as World Series champs in 1993 was a tremendously impressive feat, and Gaston probably deserves a lot of credit for it. Not just because its so hard to repeat, but because his team had lost its shortstop (Lee), third baseman (Gruber), left fielder (Maldonado), and DH(Winfield) from the lineup (gotta admit, the front office filled the DH hole for him pretty good.) His pitching staff lost its closer (Henke) and its two best starrters (Cone and Key). His biggest winner (Morris) went from 21-6 to 7-12. To top it off, they dismissed two more pitchers (Stieb, who was done anyway, and David Wells, who wasn't). They won again anyway, and the fact that losses on this scale didn't even seem to discourage anyone probably has a lot to do with the manager.

IF THERE WERE NO PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, WHAT WOULD THIS MANAGER PROBABLY BE DOING? Phys-ed teacher and vocational guidance counsellor at some inner-city school.

Anyway - there's the format. So it naturally occurs to me - what would this look like for John Gibbons? How many of these questions can we answer?
A Manager's Box! | 25 comments | Create New Account
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Mike Green - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 09:52 AM EST (#180648) #
Nicely done, Mags.  The comparison between Anderson and Gaston is a good one.  Both were excellent managers for "ripe" clubs. 

Way back in the mid-80s, I prepared a Manager in a Box for Bobby Cox.  Alas, it was done on paper and was thrown out in a cleaning frenzy a few years ago.  Cox, like Gaston, was a so-so game manager, but a good leader and developer of talent.  Of course, he used platoons more often than anyone else during his time in Toronto.
John Northey - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 01:12 PM EST (#180655) #
That was fun to read. A lot of people (especially in the media) seemed to dislike or outright hate Cito at the time and I figure it was for the same reason he was loved by the players. He would stick by the guys he trusted, blast the ones he didn't and didn't suffer fools well.

As I recall he stated he wouldn't go to interviews for a managers job as everyone knew exactly what they were getting with him, so no need for the dog and pony show. Looking back he actually would be best in a situation where he has a solid pitching coach he can lean on for the staff, where kids are being mixed in and a few solid vets are there.

What I think killed him in the 95/96/97 era was the complete lack of a plan from above. The Jays in '94 had the drop that had to come eventually (2 WS titles, 4 playoffs in 5 years, over a decade of over 500 ball). For 1995 Ash and crew decided to give it one last kick and mid-season figured out the run was over. Sadly, he then changed his mind in the winter and thought the Jays could contend again and signed Eric Hanson for 3 poor seasons, signed Otis Nixon for CF, resigned Joe Carter, traded for 'proven reliever' Bill Risley. These are things you do if you think you are a player or two away from contention, not when you just came in last place with a sub 400 winning percentage and just lost your all-star HOF second baseman. This was the time to use the kids, to trade the vets and start a new wave. Some would mention how Interbrew wanted a winner immediately and that Ash had no choice, but he could have worked it differently, sold them on kids being the way to go if you want to win and how it would save them lots of money (just shy of $11 million between Carter, Nixon, and Hanson on a payroll of about $30 million).

Sigh. The mid-90's. An era that was wasted. Thank goodness we had 83-93.
Bid - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 02:39 PM EST (#180663) #

Terrific read. Cito remains undervalued as a manager, and he's never had a second crack at it during an era when guys like Dusty Baker, Jimy Williams and John McNamara found employment. Ridiculous.

I  talked with Cito at one of Jack Dominico's June parties...whacks of kids, kid coaches and guys with bags of bats for autographing. With myself, or anyone else, child or adult, Cito's responses were short, uninflected and chilly in contrast to his animated pleasure in talking with (Fergie Jenkins...maybe Robin Roberts) the ball player next to him at the head table. I watched the interactions for quite a while after I returned to the pleasures of the buffet, and it was pretty much the same throughout. It seemed clear to me at the time that Cito made little connection to anyone not a player, and I have wondered--again today,  thanks, Magpie--if this displayed lack of affect for those never under fire extended to the executives who might have pursued and hired him for another team if he had seemed to like them a little better, and hence, they him.

Craig B - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 03:05 PM EST (#180664) #
The comparison between Anderson and Gaston is a good one.  Both were excellent managers for "ripe" clubs.

Cito would have made an even better manager for a young, developing team (though he wouldn't have gotten two World Series in the deal, of course!)  Cito was outstanding at recognizing talent and was extremely generous about giving young players a shot.  Even guys he didn't like - to name two from the article, David Wells got a chance to start under Cito, and Derek Bell got his first shot under Cito.  John Olerud got a chance to start when he was fresh out of college, without a game of minor league experience.  Thanks to Cito.  Cito didn't put on airs - when you were better than the guy in front of you, he sat and you played.

Cito in '96 and '97 laid the foundation for a pretty good ballclub going forward - he and his staff helped turn Delgado, Gonzalez, Green, Stewart, Carpenter, Hentgen, and Escobar into quality major league players.

Mind you, he was good for a ripe club too.  The job he did managing the personalities on the '91-93 clubs was outstanding, because many of the best players had been pretty tough to manage - guys like Winfield, Molitor, Morris.

(The one time that didn't happen was in '97 with Joe Carter - Joe played when he had clearly been passed by some other hitters on the team.  I think that one incident, at the end of Cito's tenure, has unnecessarily colored some views about him).
Craig B - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 03:09 PM EST (#180665) #
By the way, Mags, this is fantastic, fantastic analysis.  Kudos and thanks.
Dave Till - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 05:18 PM EST (#180674) #
Magpie, this is awesome and more awesome. Thank you.

To respond to Craig's comment about Cito, Joe Carter, and 1997: by the end of his time in Toronto, I think Cito was a bit shell-shocked. I seem to recall that he was starting to make pitching changes just because he was getting hassled for not making enough pitching changes. He might have stuck with Carter because Joe was so loyal to him.

I agree, absolutely, that someone should have given Cito another shot at managing. He won two World Series titles, so it wasn't as if he was incapable of leading a championship team; in fact, the opposite. It's just wrong that Jimy Williams got two more chances to manage after being fired by the Jays, while Cito got none.
Craig B - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 06:11 PM EST (#180678) #
Well, Dave, not to excuse it (certainly not from a fan's point of view) but a GM generally balances a lot more considerations than just wins, losses and baseball stuff, when he is appointing a manager.  Whether a manager is one of the boys ("clubbable", as the English call it) is a major consideration.  J.P., for example, couldn't wait to get rid of Tosca and install Gibbons, because when it came down to it Gibby was more J.P.'s kind of people than Tosca was.

Cito is NOT a glad-hander (see the anecdote above :).  Cito was not one of the boys, and he was not a sufferer of fools.  What GM needs that, on top of that, a guy who is aggressive and very smart, qualities that tend to undermine a GM's authority?  Plus, as the 95-97 seasons showed, it was really questionable for a while how much fire/desire Cito had left in him.  I think it was there, but Cito's not a guy who is going to say the same dumb old lies about how he can't sleep at night for wishing he was "back in the game".

CeeBee - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 06:29 PM EST (#180679) #
Great article, Magpie. Any chance of doing one on Gibby?  As for Cito, he's one of my favorite managers for any team and I echo the sentiments that it's hard to understand why he never got a managing  job after the Jays, especially the way they  recycle managers in the majors.  Anyway, great read and would love to see one on Gibbons.
Magpie - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 07:19 PM EST (#180682) #
I'm sure I mentioned this before, but not managing seems to agree with Gaston. The last time I saw him (a little more than a year ago) he looked just great - trim, strong, ready to play. If you had told me he was 45 years old, I would have easily believed it. He was 62 at the time.

All the same, I'm sure he wanted (and may still want) to manage again. If for no other reason than because he thinks it's his due, it's something he's earned. And I also suspect that  he feels that he has a responsibility, as a black American who has achieved some things in his career, to get what he has earned (if that point makes sense to any of you.)

Some older managers do get hired - in recent times, we've seen Felipe Alou and Jim Leyland have an awful lot of success. I always thought one of Gaston's problems is that he's never been part of the network, he'd never worked for a lot of organizations, never done a lot of interviews. HIs network is basically Henry Aaron and Bobby Cox, who got him started in his post-playing career. It's very, very unusual for a coach-manager to get his major league job, and then stay with that first major league organization for sixteen years.
Lefty - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 08:29 PM EST (#180683) #

I think its widely assumed that if the Jays do not get off to a good start this year there will be plenty of questions about not only John Gibbons, but Ricciardi himself.

I think it would be a good self preservation move by JP to warm Cito up a bit this year, just in case he needs a Plan B.

The detractors of this strategy may suggest that Ricciardi only wants so - called puppet managers he can control. But the rope given to JP is starting to get stretched, so he might want to role the dice and go with someone who will demand and get respect and performance from a team.

The Jays are a veteran club now. Really there are few kids expected to crack this squad this season. Plus, Ricciardi is five years into his first gig as a GM now. He should be comfortable and confident that he can work with a baseball man with an opinion and track record.

 

Craig B - Wednesday, March 05 2008 @ 11:31 PM EST (#180688) #

The problem with that analysis, Lefty, is that Gibby is actually a pretty good manager.  He's not Earl Weaver or anything, but he's solid and does what's needed, and he has cultivated a good rapport with the players.  He's definitely not Ricciardi's puppet, although he has accepted (as all managers in these times must do) that he won't get much say in player personnel decisions.  It used to be different, but now everyone from  Joe Torre on down is expected to use what he's given.
Thomas - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 07:39 AM EST (#180690) #
Magnificent work, Magpie. Nothing like the smell of a new season around the corner to bring out (or drive you to find hidden on your computer) some of the best analysis on the Box this year.

I just want to echo the general sentiments here about Cito getting a bum rap with regards to his handling of young players. Craig addressed it thoroughly in both this and the other thread, but most people assume Cito's strength was with handling veterans and while he was good with older and somewhat difficult players, he did well with integrating younger players into the ballclub.

With regards to Gibbons, Wilner's predicting he'll be gone in May unless the team gets off to a strong start. He says stumbling along a couple of games under .500 will probably get him his walking papers. I didn't hear the interview, but I imagine that, as many of do, Wilner sees this as JP's "make or break" year and that if the team doesn't respond to Gibbons immediately he'll try someone new.
Frank Markotich - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 08:57 AM EST (#180693) #

When Cito was the manager here, I wasn't very impressed with him. I hated his reluctance to make in-game moves and bringing in the infield in the first inning of a scoreless game drove me up the wall. Looking back, I was wrong. He was exactly what the team needed, and in-game strategy by a manager is overrated.

I see we're starting to get the "Ricciardi is on thin ice" stuff again. I find this doubtful in the extreme. He's signed through 2010, the team has gone from losing large amounts of money to (probably) making money, and by all accounts Godfrey and Rogers like him. Fans tend to project their own feelings and priorities onto sports teams' ownerships.

 

HollywoodHartman - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 12:16 PM EST (#180705) #
This is a terrific write up. Besides using his entire pen, I'd say that most of this commentary also fits Joe Torre. Thoughts?
ChicagoJaysFan - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 12:46 PM EST (#180706) #
This is a terrific write up. Besides using his entire pen, I'd say that most of this commentary also fits Joe Torre. Thoughts?

I really like the write-up and analysis, but I think there is some attribution bias taking place for Cito (and for Joe Torre as well, at least in popular media references).

For instance, it's easy to say that Cito favored a set line-up because he used the same line-up all the time.  But when John Olerud, Roberto Alomar, Joe Carter, Devon White, Paul Molitor, and Ed Sprague are healthy and play 140+ games (as in 1993) and your options behind them are relatively limited (compared to the starters), how much line-up shifting is anyone really going to do?  Towards the end of his time here, when the starting options weren't as great, Cito started to mess things around a lot more.  For instance, 1996 he used PH's 107 times.  In 1993 he used them 30 times.  Which is the "true Cito?"  I'd say both.

I see a similar thing in Torre - find me a manager that doesn't play Posada, ARod, Jeter, Matsui, et al as often as they can and I'll show you a manager that won't have a job in the majors for long.  But go back to when Giambi was struggling (i.e. 2004) and you see Torre starting to play around at 1B a lot more.
Magpie - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 03:21 PM EST (#180716) #
I'd say that most of this commentary also fits Joe Torre. Thoughts?

Yes, in a lot of ways. One of the differences is that Torre has a little bit of that Jimy Williams just-have-to juggle and tinker gene in him. With both the lineup and  his pitchers.
scottt - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 06:58 PM EST (#180721) #
Gibbons? Let's see.

HOW HE USES HIS PERSONNEL


DOES HE FAVOUR A SET LINEUP OR A ROTATION SYSTEM? I have never heard of a rotation system. Last year Gibby used 132 different lineups. He never used the same lineup more than 7 times and that was kinda extreme for him.

DOES HE LIKE TO PLATOON? Not really. He'll be quick to drop the platoon if one of the guy is getting hot.

DOES HE TRY TO SOLVE HIS PROBLEMS WITH PROVEN PLAYERS OR WITH YOUNGSTERS WHO STILL HAVE SOMETHING TO PROVE? HOW MANY PLAYERS HAS HE MADE REGULARS OUT OF WHO WERE NOT REGULARS BEFORE AND WHO WERE THEY? That's a heck of a question. He used youngsters when the team was not expected to win, but he'll take a proven player if he has one. He made regulars out of MacDonald and Rios and Johnson.

DOES HE PREFER TO GO WITH GOOD OFFENSIVE PLAYERS OR DOES HE LIKE THE GLOVE MEN?  He's an optimist and he likes to play the hot guy. He'll use a glove man if he doesn't have a hot offensive player.

DOES HE LIKE AN OFFENSE BASED ON POWER, SPEED, OR HIGH AVERAGES. Power. He tries to use speed, but he just can't take the bat away from a power hitter even if the guy is hitting .220.

DOES HE USE THE ENTIRE ROSTER OR DOES HE KEEP PEOPLE AROUND SITTING ON THE BENCH? He tries to use the bench, but he doesn't keep the left bats he needs. It's all about pinch runners and defensive replacements.

DOES HE BUILD HIS BENCH AROUND YOUNG PLAYERS WHO CAN STEP INTO THE BREACH IF NEED BE OR AROUND VETERAN ROLE PLAYERS WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FUNCTIONS WITHIN A GAME. He likes veterans. He'll keep some young players to pinch run, but won't rely on them.
Mike Green - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 08:06 PM EST (#180724) #
There are very few noticeable patterns about Gibbons' use of personnel.  He will use a platoon, but not too often.  He prefers a mix of younger and older players,  The team has always had a good defence while he has been here, but that mostly reflects the personnel that he has been given by Ricciardi (although Gibbons did not put up long with Adams at short in 2006 presumably because of his defensive struggles).

There is more to say about his handling of the pitching staff, and his style. I would describe him as an intense manager, and a decision-maker.  He has got a serious temper, which from time to time interferes with his decision-making, but ordinarily he just makes the decisions (is it a paradox that easy-to-get along with managers are more often emotional leaders than intense ones?) on a rational basis rather than trying to inspire.  He is about halfway on the optimist/problem solver scale, with his different responses to the early struggles of Rios and Adams illustrating the point.



CaramonLS - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 08:31 PM EST (#180725) #

Not one mention of his ability to see if a pitcher is tipping?  Come on Mags.

It might not have had any tangable effect on the game, but I can tell you if a hitter goes up to the plate and *thinks* he knows what is coming, you can bet that is a huge advantage for your hitters.

Magpie - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 08:55 PM EST (#180726) #
Not one mention of his ability to see if a pitcher is tipping?

My bad. I suppose that's part of problem solving. You can't hit this guy? How about what he tell you what the next pitch will be?
Lefty - Thursday, March 06 2008 @ 10:02 PM EST (#180727) #
Hi Craig, I wasn't really trying to provide analysis on the merits of Gibbons as manager, only that if by chance he gets shown the door Ricciardi will have done the franchise a favour if Cito was willing to consider an overture.
Magpie - Friday, March 07 2008 @ 12:07 PM EST (#180751) #
He stuck with Maldonado in 1992 through a horrible slump even though Derek Bell was back off the DL and ready to go.

I just checked that out, by the way. You get old, you no longer fully trust your memory of these things. Bell began the season as the starting LF but was hurt in the very first game. Maldonado filled in, and hit  a far from stupendous .167 for the month April. He started to warm up after that, but when Bell returned on May 9, Candy was still hitting just  .211 with 0 (that's zero!) homers.
zeppelinkm - Friday, March 07 2008 @ 01:10 PM EST (#180755) #

This was a truly awesome piece to read. It was like a timewarp...

I don't have anything to add, other then I think it would be awesome to bring back Cito. I like Gibbons (most of the time) but I think Cito could be the type of change that this club needs.

That and the fact (as has been mentioned already) that he was apparently great at noticing if a pitcher was tipping his pitches, which has to be one of the most undervalued skills in the game.

 

zeppelinkm - Friday, March 07 2008 @ 01:26 PM EST (#180756) #

To add to that final thought, the importance of detecting a pitcher who is tipping.

Ted Williams was always an advocate of guessing. He said he guessed at every pitch that was coming. His philosophy was that your odds were just about as good for hitting a pitch that you guessed wrong on then if you didn't guess at all. If you guess right, your odds are way way up for making good contact. If you've studied the pitcher and know his tendancies and habits, your odds of guessing right go up. If you read his book on hitting, he shows himself the difference he made to some teams offences after he took over as hitting coach. Now, he might have used selective numbers to pad his case, I don't know, but my memory says it sure was convincing. Surely someone like Magpie has read this book and knows of what I speak!

So you'd have to think Cito was big on studying pitchers (you're allowed a big 'duh' here). So even if Gaston was wrong about a pitcher tipping, he'd at least get his batters to develop the guessing approach which I think is a really sound approach to hitting. Though technically it's not really just flat out guessing... more of an educated guess. 

TimberLee - Friday, March 07 2008 @ 05:04 PM EST (#180765) #
Just want to add my appreciation for this piece. Somehow I feel younger after having read it. Cito is one of those men whom I like without ever having met him, and I like to think I'm sensible enough to not have many such people.
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