He had a nice 27-28 game hit streak late one summer if I recall...

I used to really not like Shawn Green when he first came up.  (I was around 10 and didn't really understand that young players need time to develop)  My defining memory of a game I went to in Detroit was an error he made on an easy fly in right.

As he matured, I loved having his arm out there in right, and of course who could forget the Milk commercials with him, Delgado and Gonzalez.

I don't want this thread to veer off in directions unintended or unwanted, but since there's not going to be a better time or place to make this point:

Shawn Green should be remembered unfavorably for using the Jewishness card to explain why he wanted to get traded to L.A. (and let us stipulate that he forced that trade to happen, setting aside whether Toronto could control the value it got in return).  The guy did not have an ounce of Judaism in his life until the Toronto community brought it to him.  Then when he decided he'd like an $84 million contract, he pretended that he needed to get traded to L.A. so he could be a part of a large Jewish community.  As if Toronto's community of 180,000 Jews wasn't large enough.  Maybe he was tired of having to travel north of Eglinton for a kosher burger.

This has nothing to do with the act of seeking the largest contract possible, which is the right of every athlete, no matter the race, religion or creed.  Green wasn't the first, or the thousandth, to force a trade out of a small(er)-market team, and won't be the last.  But the way he acted like one of the factors was a need to be in a larger Jewish community was an insult to Toronto fans' intelligence.

It was nice when he didn't play on Yom Kippur, though...

Sorry DD, but I don't recall any of this. As I recall it, there was talk going back to a year before Green left that the Jays could not afford to keep both Delgado and Green going into 2000 for financial reasons.  The free agent market that off-season was indeed insane, and there is no way that the club could have kept both.

Weird seeing the second great all-around Jay outfield start to retire.

Bell-Moseby-Barfield in the 80's, who all ended their careers before turning 34, were the best we had. Funny to see they were the regulars for just 4 full seasons.

Stewart-Cruz Jr-Green were a great dream though. Like the BMB outfield they never made it to the World Series and none had a HOF career despite dreams of it. What is funny is how short a time they were together. Just 2 seasons listed as the regulars. Stewart is here again but appears near the end as he hits his age 34 season. Cruz Jr has bounced around a lot lately, never spending more than 1 full season plus a bit anywhere but Toronto (the bit being for LA Dodgers). He also is entering his age 34 season with the end either here or darn close. Green has easily been the best of that batch, but ends his career after his, you guessed it, age 34 season.

So, lets give a quick summary.
Stewart: 1334 games, 107 OPS+, played from 21-33+
Cruz Jr: 1350 games, 103 OPS+, played from 23-33+
Green: 1951 games, 120 OPS+, played from 20-34
Regulars together for 2 seasons, played together for 3

The 80's...
Bell: 1587 games, 113 OPS+, played from 21-33
Moseby: 1588 games, 102 OPS+, played from 20-31
Barfield: 1428 games, 117 OPS+, played from 21-32
Regulars together for 4 seasons, played together for 7

And for reference - current...
Johnson: 610 games, 95 OPS+, played from 26-30+
Wells: 970 games, 108 OPS+, played from 20-28+
Rios: 546 games, 105 OPS+, played from 23-26+
Regulars together for 2 seasons, played together for 4

Notes:
Maldonado/White/Carter were the outfield for 2 years but Candy was never seen as a regular.
Woods/Bosetti/Bailor were the outfield of the 70's for the Jays but, like the team, were not that good as none had an OPS+ over 100 lifetime and two were in the 70 for OPS+.

Whether or not there's merit to that -- I don't recall, either, but lived in New York and later Texas at the time -- I was looking back at an old Hall of Names entry, Hebrewin' Up a Ballclub and think Green probably hits cleanup, behind Greenberg and ahead of Rosen, Lieberthal and Blomberg.

Mike, I do recall what DD is talking about. Green (I suspect through his agent) made a bit of a stink at the time to pressure the Jays to make a trade early. Basically stating he wanted to be both on the west coast and in an area with a large Jewish community. I think the media blew it up a lot more than needed (gee, Toronto media going nutty? Hard to picture) as it was just one year after the Clemens fiasco and with the mess in Montreal going on anything involving money went through the roof. The Jewish angle was more a sidebar that the media enjoyed playing with that caused a lot of hard feelings in the fan base.

Ash really had a couple of tough things to deal with back then eh? First Clemens then Green demanding trades. I know I much prefer how JP & Glaus handled it - quiet until after it was done, and still fairly quiet afterwards.

I swear that I saw Shawn Green playing at Knology Park in Dunedin yesterday using the name Buck Coats. Splitting image of Green at the plate.

I tried to find a reference to Shawn's trade demand somewhere on the net before I posted my comment.  But googling "Shawn Green Jewish Toronto Los Angeles" didn't exactly narrow things down.  So I indeed commented off of memory, but I think it served correctly.

In the way way back file I remember a teenaged Shawn Green getting a big extra base hit in a St. Patrick's Day spring training game at the Skydome back in 1992 (perhaps 1993?).  It really stuck because he was a skinny little beanpole and probably wouldn't have looked too out of place walking down the hallway at my high school with the 12th graders.  That and because the Jays were wearing green unis for the occasion.

I had a look back at the Hebrewin' Up a Ball Club thread and totally forgot that Scott Radinsky was on the list.  Add Judaism to being a pretty solid middle reliever and singing for Ten Foot Pole and you've got yourself a pretty full life!

Perhaps is was just a fluke but what I remember most about Shawn was the year that his power spiked in 1998:

 1997 24 TOR AL 135  429   57  123  22  4  16   53  14  3  36  99  .287  .340  .469  110  201   1   4   4   1   4
 1998 25 TOR AL 158  630  106  175  33  4  35  100  35 12  50 142  .278  .334  .510  116  321   1   3   2   5   6
 1999 26 TOR AL 153  614  134  190  45  0  42  123  20  7  66 117  .309  .384  .588  143  361   0   5   4  11  12 SS,MVP-9,AS

Coincidently the same year the Jose Canseco came to TO

 1998 33 TOR AL 151  583   98  138  26  0  46  107  29 17  65 159  .237  .318  .518  113  302   0   4   5   6   7 SS

Combine that with how I seem to remember a news story about how Canseco had taken Green "under his wing" and it's one of many things that make you go "hmmmmm"

You know, I have to say I don't really have a favourite Green moment. He is one of those guys who never seemed to smile, or get excited, and looked like playing baseball was for him, as was said in Field of Dreams "like eating his vegetables or taking out the trash".

 Yeah, I am sure he did smile and get excited. I certainly did when he made good plays but for whatever reason he just never engaged me as a fan.

Combine that with how I seem to remember a news story about how Canseco had taken Green "under his wing" and it's one of many things that make you go "hmmmmm"

Delgado also had a spike that year, going from 1 HR every 17.3 at-bats to one every 13.9.

It's not as dramatic as Green's improvement (1 HR every 26.8 to one every 18 at bats), but still.

Having said that, I remember Delgado's start to 1994 when it seemed like 61 might be a possibility and you just knew that dude could hit HR's, so I'm confident enough that if he was doing anything, it wasn't because of Canseco.

With that in mind and all the complaining about Lind being blocked on this year's team, I wonder what everyone on here must have been saying in '95 with Delgado?  Having a 38-year old Molitor on a bad team with Delgado sitting in the minors.  People would have been up in arms.

My first memory of Shawn Green is looking at a report about his prospect status back in '91 that read something along the line of: he runs like Devon White, has the sweet swing of Olerud and the power of Joe Carter. A 5-tool prospect who will one day be MVP-calibre with Gold Glove defense and perhaps a few batting titles along the way.

Anyhow, it was disappointing to see him go because of financial constraints for Mondesi, expecting that he would yet go on to do bigger and better things (he did) but not nearly as sad as how quickly he faded.

As for Delgado back in '94, I remember him bursting on the scene with all those home runs in April and wondering, "they win two WS back-to-back and they bring this guy out of the woodwork to push them unexpectedly higher. UNbelievable."

Although as you can see from his log that year, things went sour for him and there wasn't much question of where to play him after the holes in his swing were being exposed and pitchers learned to drive him hard tight and/or high and get him to chase breaking balls -- and that he would need more seasoning in the minors. Also, I thought perhaps he was spending his early time in the Bigs catching, but he only was a catcher for one game that year (total 2 career) but spent all his other games as an outfielder. Because the Jays didn't have a reliable outfielder to pair with White and Carter that year, and clearly that Green kid wasn't ready when he was brought up to replace Delgado. Only 3 hits in 33 at bats and he was returned to the minors. This was a championship-calibre team, after all, and they had no time for seasoning their young players with some playing time. They had a third championship to win.

Although as you can see from his log that year, things went sour for him and there wasn't much question of where to play him after the holes in his swing were being exposed and pitchers learned to drive him hard tight and/or high and get him to chase breaking balls -- and that he would need more seasoning in the minors. Also, I thought perhaps he was spending his early time in the Bigs catching, but he only was a catcher for one game that year (total 2 career) but spent all his other games as an outfielder. Because the Jays didn't have a reliable outfielder to pair with White and Carter that year, and clearly that Green kid wasn't ready when he was brought up to replace Delgado. Only 3 hits in 33 at bats and he was returned to the minors. This was a championship-calibre team, after all, and they had no time for seasoning their young players with some playing time. They had a third championship to win.

I know why they sent him down in '94 - it was keeping him in the minors for '95, after he hit .319/.401/.541 in AAA for 1994 that I think would have set everyone here off.

I think SI did an article about Green and his Judaism. I don't have it on hand, but I remember him with a bunch of (presumably) kosher food around him.

I have only ever been to 1 Jays game. It was Jays Red Sox, Hentgen vs Wakefield. The Jays won something like 12-1 (with Steib pitching the final 3 innings for the save). Anyway, if memory serves, Shawn Green joined the 30/30 club that night.

You were an honest hockey player so we should take your word for it.

Exactly, thank you.  And you were a good pitcher.

He didn't actually demand a trade. But he advised Toronto after I believe his 5th season that he wouldn't be signing long term. He did it so that Gord could trade him rather than playing out his final year and electing free agency. In retrospect, we would have been better off with the picks. His agent was Jeff Moorad if I recall, who was also Mondesi's agent and he was key in organizing the deal.

Greene explained his decision to the local beat writers as partly wishing to go where there was a larger Jewish community, but I think it's pretty hard to say that you just don't want to stay and play here, which I think was what was really happening.

"So pack it up and cut the crap
When the clock starts talkin', I start walkin'
When you pass in your porsche
Please don't offer me a ride
I may be a skunk
But you're a piece of junk, and furthermore
I don't like your trousers
Your appalling taste in women"

When they both were bachelors, Shawn Green and Carlos Delgado were asked about their taste in women.  Green indicated that among celebrities, he preferred the Jennifer Aniston type whereas Delgado had a poster of Catherine Zeta-Jones up.  It seems clear to me that Green was shipped out because of his appalling taste in women!

Delgado, Green, and Alex Gonzalez were dubbed the three amigos when they first came up; and Delgado and Gonzalez truly seemed to enjoy playing here.  But I'm among those who never warmed to Green, as he didn't seem to warm to Toronto.  Delgado enjoyed the city and got to know it pretty well, riding around on his bicycle.  But not Green.  I had the feeling in the last few weeks of his final season here that he couldn't wait to leave, and he scarcely bothered to disguise that in interviews.

Still, when he had his swing going right, it was pretty to see (Whitey Herzog always liked it.)  I was impressed too, and surprised, when he put a ball into the 5th level at Skydome once, joining Canseco and Delgado.   Not one of my favourite Jays though.

To correct that memory, it was likely in '93 that I first recall Green touted as the kid with all the tools of Jays All-Stars White, Carter and Olerud.

He was the reason why I was glad the Mets lost to the Cards in the 2006 NLCS.   I do remember being at the game his hitting streak was stopped in '99 when Gabe Kapler of the Tigers robbed him with a nice running catch in deep center field.  That's the one club record I want to see fall ASAP.  I also remember being at the game when he homered against the Jays in 2004 when the Dodgers were in town and I gladly booed him.  At least the Jays won handily that night. 

I remember after he left that a column in the Star referred to him as $hawn Green. 

Good riddance to him.  I'm glad he's gone.

I remember one late summer evening many years ago, having a drink at a patio bar at Yonge & Dupont with some friends, and somebody mentioning that Shawn Green was standing a few feet away.  He was hanging out with presumably a few of his friends, and the surprising thing was how he looked like just another regular young guy.  Definitely not somebody that you would notice unless he wasn't a well-known athlete, and I think he preferred it that way.

I was always neutral about him, much more a Delgado fan.  I did like to hear though about their 'competition' as to see who could hit the most opposite field home-runs.  Something the Jays haven't done much of recently...

I think Shawn Green suffered with the fans because of his personality. According to all accounts(reporters, other players, etc...), he is a very nice guy, very smart, dedicated, and a decent human being. However, he was always very quiet and not particularly demonstrative. And as for his power spike...I don't think SLG averages of .448, .469, .510, and .588 from ages 23-26 looks unusual in the least.

I'm on board with Glevin. Some people don't wear their hearts on their sleeves (John Olerud anyone?). It doesn't mean they don't care. Presuming to read someone's mind from their outward appearance is foolish. As for Green's development being tied to Canseco's arrival, that's just baseless innuendo. From ages 23 to 25, Babe Ruth's SLG was .555, .657, .849. Steroids?

I don't really understand some of the bitterness toward Green expressed in the previous posts. Green was a part of the team that  help revive my interest in baseball after years of post-strike apathy. The 1999 team was a team I found really exciting with Green/Delgado and Cruz Jr. I felt very strongly at that point the team was a few years away from contention. The team had the feel of the 1983 teams (although being really too young to remember that team, being six at the time and in 1999 a year away from applying the statistics learned during my undergraduate to baseball, clearly the comparison seemed more valid to me then than it actually is).

At any rate, Green often reminded my of Olerud (my all time favorite Jay, a player whom my application of statistics to baseball deepened my admiration instead of going the other way as so many others did - Jack Morris for one) but with more power and defense that was widely appreciated instead under-appreciated). While I was also more of a Delgado fan (a large part because of how nice he was to my mother at game) I wasn't hurt or miffed at Green leaving and was hinted at above, I viewed as a good thing as he let the team know rather than let him walk for "nothing" (two draft picks I know, which probably would have been quite good given the other products of the Ash era)... I just was very unhappy with what  Ash got in return (the one moment of Mondesi stealing home against the Yankees aside).

As I said - It could have been a fluke.  But after Blinky (My nickname for Canseco that year) came out and admitted used Steroids it really puts into question so many players potential PED use that you can't say that I'm 100% wrong.

Since Green and Delgado were my two favorite Jays at the time  I'd really like to believe otherwise but that doubt will forever be there in the back of my mind.

Certainly Licky (Roger Clemens) is guilty by association that year too, but who else? Shannon Stewart? Tony Fernandez? Say it ain't so, Craig Grebeck. Say it ain't so.

I understand your position Timbuck2, and while I admit it's a possiblity, I at least lean towards coincidence. From memory Green always hit a lot of doubles, which is often touted as sign of future power. it's not unreasonable for doubles to turn into homeruns...especially at his age then.
I don't have any particular memories for or against Green.

Geoff - I admit that my thinking is more likely a result of the taint of the Steroid Era than actual facts.  But right or wrong when I think about Shawn Green I'll always wonder if was only Creatine (a la Mark McGuire) that he put in his body.

As for Green's development being tied to Canseco's arrival, that's just baseless innuendo. From ages 23 to 25, Babe Ruth's SLG was .555, .657, .849. Steroids?

There actually is a likely explanation for the Babe's improvement - he cut down significantly on his pitching and thus likely had a lot more strength in his arms (for the years you covered, his IP were, in order, 166.3, 133.3, and 4 - the year prior to what you listed, Ruth pitched 326.3 innings and slugged .472).  At a quick glance - it looks like there is at least a correlation between the number of innings and his slugging percentage.

Green didn't have anything like that going for him.  Like Timbuck2, I'm not saying that I'm confident that Green used steroids, but I do wonder whether or not he did and can't say that there aren't a few things that make me think ... "hmmm - maybe?"  I mean, if McNamee, Clemens, and Canseco had been involved in the early 20s Yankees, Ruth had never pitched before, and steroids were used by a significant amount of the baseball population at the time, then yes, I would also say, "hmmm...." about Ruth.

The whole Gaston-Green thing always mystified me. Gaston's main problem with Green in his sophomore season was that he didn't hit a lick until July. He'd had a decent rookie year as a platoon player in 1995. So the following year they tried to work him into the everyday job, and it didn't take. By the middle of June, he was hitting .216. At which point, Gaston decided maybe he wasn't quite ready for everyday duty and went back to platooning him.

In 1997, Gord Ash brought in lots of additional bodies at Green's positions - they made the awful trade with Pittsburgh to get Orlando Merced to play RF, the Ghost of Joe Carter was in LF, they traded for Jose Cruz early in the season, and they even took a brief flier on the Artist formerly known as Ruben Sierra. Green had trouble finding at bats early in the season, and didn't do much with the ones he had (he was hitting .224 at the end of May.) But to his credit, he fought through it. This was the year when he finally started to turn into Shawn Green. Over the final three months he played almost every day and hit .294 with 10 HRs in 81 games (despite a serious September power outage - his last HR came on August 18.).

Of course, if Orlando Merced's season hadn't ended in July...

You know, Scott Cassidy just retired too, and I don't see anyone composing paeans to his memory.  Hmph.

The whole Gaston-Green thing always mystified me. Gaston's main problem with Green in his sophomore season was that he didn't hit a lick until July. He'd had a decent rookie year as a platoon player in 1995. So the following year they tried to work him into the everyday job, and it didn't take. By the middle of June, he was hitting .216. At which point, Gaston decided maybe he wasn't quite ready for everyday duty and went back to platooning him.

Gaston's primary problem with Green was that he couldn't hit left-handers worth a damn.  Hence the platooning.  There is so much revisionist history written in Toronto about Cito that it turns my stomach.

Shawn Green couldn't hit lefthanders at all, for years.  This had nothing to do with him being a young player and everything to do with him being worthless against left-handed breaking stuff.  His career mark of .253/.323/.431 versus lefties is boosted significantly by the mid-career results he started to obtain once he was able to keep his stance closed and not fly open against the slow stuff.  Green was always benched by Cito versus tough lefties because Green couldn't hit a tough lefty with a tennis racket.

And once Green learned to hit lefties, which he did after a lot of long hard work (much of it with Cito, one might want to remember) he started to play more against them.  The whole imaginary saga of Cito not giving a fair shake to young players (when he was in fact a great teacher and nurturer of young talent) comes from a couple of minor incidents like this - incidents where Cito was in fact RIGHT to do what he did - it was the right move for the team, and more likely than not the right move for Green. 

Interesting point about Cito vs the kids. The big two who were viewed as guys Cito didn't like were Olerud and Green, two left handed hitters with pretty swings.

Olerud didn't see minor league time until 2005, his final season. As a kid out of college on a team thought to have a shot at the playoffs (finished 2 games out) he was the DH vs almost all right handers. When a lefty was on the mound we saw George Bell (just a couple years removed from an MVP) or Glenallen Hill (hot prospect with amazing power). McGriff was at first. Olerud had 421 PA's. In 1991 he was moved to first after the McGriff trade with Ed Sprague (106 OPS+) and Pat Tabler (63 OPS+) mixed in vs LHP. Olerud had 541 PA's this season. His 3rd full year in pro ball Olerud had 537 PA's, losing time at first to Tabler (65 OPS+) again. Wow, I didn't remember just how bad Tabler was at that point. After that Olerud was an everyday player until his final season in Toronto when he was sat quite a bit in June (64 sOPS+ that month) and Sept/Oct (29 sOPS+). Seems Cito sat Olerud down when he was really, really slumping although I didn't notice it at the time.

So, was Cito right to use Olerud that way? For 1990 the fact he kept Olerud in the lineup so much says a lot as few guys skip the minors and get a platoon or full-time job in the majors. You also would want to minimize his exposure to potential failure his rookie season in the pro's. In 1991 Olerud hit 217 vs LHP but had a sOPS+ of 125. I'd give Cito a mulligan on that although Olerud cracked the crap out of the few lefties he saw year one (sOPS+ of 191 over 91 PA's). In '92 the same pattern. 129 sOPS+ over 123 PA's. Looking closer you can see that vs LHP Olerud took a lot of walks, hit for a poor average and poor Slg%. So it makes sense that Cito had trouble seeing the value there as he was viewed as a 'slugging first' manager.

I was very surprised to see that when Cito cut Olerud's playing time in '96 that it was just during major, major slumps. Now, cause and effect (Cito saw something indicating a slump was coming, or Olerud slumped due to being benched) is tough to call. Still, it is interesting.

Cito really did give a few kids a shot at full-time work. While the team was a contender (89-94) he gave full time or platoon jobs to Olerud, Green, Sprague, Alex Gonzalez, Jeff Kent, Junior Felix, Glenallen Hill, and Pat Borders - 8 guys over a 6 year span when the Jays could buy anyone they wanted. Quite the thing, especially when it seemed he liked vets more at the time.

During non-contending years (95-97) Carlos Delgado, Shannon Stewart, Jose Cruz Jr (was starting in Seattle but it was his first full season), and Tomas Perez all got their first shots at full-time play. Delgado could be mixed into the contending years though as he broke camp a regular in '94 but was sent down after a horrid May (64 sOPS+ after a 131 sOPS+ in April).

To me Cito's biggest fault was Joe Carter. Carter was signed for 3 years after '92, but should've been allowed to go after '95 when he hit 253-300-428 for an OPS+ of 88. Probably the one Ash mistake that cost the most (leading to Olerud being given away and a hole in the offense for years). After 1995 it was obvious the Jays needed to rebuild. If Carter was allowed to leave then the Jays would've had Olerud at 1B, Delgado at DH, and an outfield of ???-Nixon-Green. In AAA in '95 we had Robert Perez (26: 343/359/496) in the OF - he would hit 327-354-406 over 216 PA's in 1996 (limited due to Carter's 682 PA's) and never again get 150 PA's in a season; Felipe Crespo at 2B (22: 294-369-493 but never got more than 153 PA's in a season in the majors); CA Jason Townley (26: 261-354-394 then retired); and Stewart in AA (21: 287-395-390). You would think from that crew you could've found either a DH or LF'er (Delgado could've been endured in LF) who would've out hit Joe Carter's 88 OPS+ while helping the Jays plan for the future. Or they could've re-signed Paul Molitor on his quest for 3000 hits as he was over 100 in OPS+ for 2 more seasons to go along with his 10+ years of it in a row. Instead they blew $6 1/2 million on Carter in both '96 and '97. Molitor, for comparison, made $5.5 million TOTAL over those two years.

Sigh. Just imagine. In both '96 and '97 the Jays finished well under 500 before the charge of '98. What if Perez developed? Or Crespo? What if the Jays, instead of signing Canseco for '98 still had Olerud? Instead of trading for Cruz Jr, they might have left Delgado or Perez in LF with Stewart in CF. Timlin and his 130+ ERA+ would've been nice in that pen instead of Robert Person and his 65 ERA+. So many dominos wouldn't have fallen (such as getting Merced/Garcia/Plesac for Silva/Wilson/others) and Ash and Cito might have had a few more years here. Instead they kept the guy who had 'the moment' and lost a lot.

Cito really did give a few kids a shot at full-time work. While the team was a contender (89-94) he gave full time or platoon jobs to Olerud, Green, Sprague, Alex Gonzalez, Jeff Kent, Junior Felix, Glenallen Hill, and Pat Borders - 8 guys over a 6 year span when the Jays could buy anyone they wanted.

Actually, there's even a little more than that. In 1989, he made a platoon regular out of Greg Myers; he also made a platoon regular out of Nelson Liriano, who had been caught in the Jimy Williams second base shuffle (in 1987 and 1988, Williams switched his regular second baseman almost every month. I'm not kidding.) During the same period John mentions, Gaston made rotation starters out of David Wells, John Cerutti, Pat Hentgen, Juan Guzman, and Todd Stottlemyre. Later on, he would try to make regulars out of Derek Bell, Sandy Martinez, and Carlos Delgado (second time was the charm).

That's a lot of kids, in a fairly short period of time, especially on a team that was attempting to finish in first place every year. By my count, Bobby Cox made first time regulars of five players in four years: Willie Upshaw, Tony Fernandez, Garth Iorg (platoon), George Bell, and Jesse Barfield. In three years and a bit, Jimy Williams made three players into regulars: Kelly Gruber, Fred McGriff, and CecilFielder (platoon) - he gave up on Mike Sharperson after one month, and Nelson Liriano after about two. Cox gave rotation jobs to Jim Gott and Jimmy Key; Williams to Jeff Musselman.

In many ways I miss Cito as manager. He had his faults (I'm sure someone will list them soon) but he would give guys a shot to either show something or to fail. Normally they would get full games to show their stuff, not pinch hit for except in rare situations. Come the playoffs he knew what he had and how to use it vs good ol' Bobby Cox who can manage in the regular season but is a nightmare in the playoffs.

I would not be unhappy to see him return, as long as the GM keeps away from RBI men who won't take a walk. Cito worked with what he had and, outside of a major blind spot for Joe Carter, did a very good job.

Wow, lots of stuff here. I've missed discussing Blue Jays baseball. In no particular order:

Olerud: Years ago, I went scouring through old microfiched newspapers, searching for baseball quotations. One thing I noticed was that, around 1990 or so, many of the crusty old sportswriters in these parts were calling for Olerud to be sent to the minors. The idea was that he needed to prove himself worthy of a major league job, and to build experience and/or character by spending time in minor league locker rooms. As I recall, the writers were complaining that Olerud was taking playing time that rightfully belonged to... Ed Sprague.

In later years, Olerud's problem was that he tried to inside-out absolutely everything. When pitchers were employing normal pitching patterns (trying to keep everything low and away), this worked like a charm - John O would take those pitches and splat them off the left field wall. But, once hitters caught on, they would bust him inside, and he would inside-out the pitch and pop it to short. Cito, and others, pointed out that Olerud would have to learn to turn on the inside fastball and pull it, to keep pitchers honest. (I have heard people accuse Cito of messing with Olerud's swing, thus causing him to drop from .363 to much lower. That's not how I remember it.)

Interestingly enough, when Olerud changed leagues, he had another brief performance spurt, before settling back down. I think this is because National League pitchers didn't know enough to bust him inside. Soon, they figured it out too. This is not to knock Olerud, who was a good player and a great guy - it's just the Jays were only able to get Robert Person for him because nobody was willing to offer more.

Green: I don't remember Shawn's trouble with lefties, but I do remember him looking lost in left field as a young player. Eventually, everybody realized that Green's best position was right field, and he went on from there.

I also don't remember Jewishness factoring into his decision to leave. As I recall it, he just wanted to go home - he's from Southern California. (It's probably worth noting that Toronto has a large Jewish community.) He was courteous enough to warn the Jays that he wasn't planning on staying here; I think he deserves to be commended for that.

By the way: Green is approximately the last person I would accuse of having used PEDs. The dude was positively skinny. How he generated so much bat speed from that frame is one of the little miracles of baseball.

Delgado: Carlos's problem was that, once the Jays decided he couldn't catch, there was no place to put him but first base or DH - and those positions were blocked by players who had finished in the top three in hitting in 1993 (Molitor and Olerud, natch). While he was in Syracuse, the Jays tried him in left field; had he been able to play even a little bit of outfield, he would have been back up like a shot. After all, the Jays had Devon White to play centre, left-centre, right-centre, and maybe most of left field; Carlos wouldn't have needed to display a lot of range. And there wasn't anybody around to play left, except maybe Mike Huff or something.

Cito: I'm in the pro-Gaston camp, and always have been. Mostly because I have vivid memories of the man who preceded him in the job.

Cito was able to win the respect of his players (note: George Bell was willing to DH for him) and was successful in the job. The Jays have been to the post-season five times in their history: of those five teams, Cito managed four and was the hitting coach for the fifth.

Oh, I forgot to mention Carter: he was lucky enough to have his declining years match up with the years in which it became easier to hit home runs. Carter's raw stats stayed at roughly the same level for many years - but, during the 1990s, 30 HR per season went from being good enough to be among the league leaders to being the approximate minimum expected level of performance for an American League corner outfielder on a contending team.

Because his numbers still looked superficially "okay", it was easy to assume that Carter was still a positive contributor. Until, all of a sudden, it became obvious that he wasn't.

Oh, I forgot to mention Carter: he was lucky enough to have his declining years match up with the years in which it became easier to hit home runs. Carter's raw stats stayed at roughly the same level for many years - but, during the 1990s, 30 HR per season went from being good enough to be among the league leaders to being the approximate minimum expected level of performance for an American League corner outfielder on a contending team.

I never really looked at it like that, but wow!  Take a look at two years of Joe Carter's:

1993: .254/.312/.489
1996: .253/.306/.475

Both were in Toronto, so you'd think they'd be pretty similar for OPS+.  In 1993 he had an OPS+ of 112, which you would think of as being ok for a LF.  But in 1996, his OPS+ was 95 - good for a starter only if you're a C, SS, or 2B (and even then, you may need some solid D).  Just look at that - for 20 points of OPS, he goes down almost 20 points in OPS+.

To see how big of a difference is usually captured in an OPS+ swing like that, we can look at the 2006 Jays.  Here we had Frank Catalanatto with OPS+ of 111 (.300/.376/.439) and Aaron Hill at OPS+ 91 (.291/.349/.386).  They're a little bit further apart in OPS+ (20 versus 17), but look how dramatically different those OPS numbers are (80 points) versus the difference in Carter's two seasons (20 points).

I am in the pro-Cito camp too.  Far lesser managers have been employed for much longer.

After Shawn Green's breakout year in Syracuse, Bill James compared him to Ted Williams.  Obviously Green lacked a few of Williams' abilities (who doesn't?), but he did follow a pretty typical career path from his arrival through his peak.

Cito was able to win the respect of his players (note: George Bell was willing to DH for him) and was successful in the job.

Wasn't this about the time George called local baseball writers mediots, and suggested they could "kiss my purple ass"?

Those were two of the best lines ever. Lmao, still.

Where are the characters now? Have they all been replaced by the likes of Clemens and Bonds?