The new hitting coach, Gary Denbo, comes from the Yankees minor leagues. As with most hires they sound good when they happen. We'll see if there's any noticable change next year.
Well, that's a fairly grumpy announcement, Pistol. How about a little optimism? You're always hiring on potential, and this guy seems to have a lot of it. He hasn't translated his apparent knowledge and enthusiasm into big league success, but at least some respected big leagers vouch for him. I was never convinced of Brantley's credentials — as a pal of the manager's, he was a crony hire — so I wasn't surprised at the lack of results. Denbo seems to have a lot more substance, and I have more confidence that he'll say something new to these hitters, or say it (show it) in a new way.
Josh Kalk has a fine description of Albert Pujols' hitting tendencies using pitch data in today's THT.
On one of the Cleveland - Yankee games, the announcers talked about how the Cleveland hitters looked at videos of the opposing pitchers, including during the game. It made me wonder if the Blue Jays did anything like this. When Brantley was fired, JP Ricciardi made a point of stressing that the new coach needed to be someone who did a lot of video work and emphasized preparation. I got the impression that Brantley didn't believe in this newfangled stuff like video. However, Gibbons did refer to Brantley as "my best buddy in baseball", or some such, and it looks like this is how he got the job to begin with.
I want the team to hire the best available people, not cronies of the manager or old-time fan favorites.
Well, that's a fairly grumpy announcement
It wasn't intended to be grumpy (although I suppose it could read that way). More indifferent than anything else, and it wouldn't have mattered who was hired. I generally don't think there's much of a difference between hitting coaches.
It sounds like he's a good hire, I'm just taking a wait and see approach. And really, with so many Jays hitting below their expected production I'm not sure we'll know for sure if he's a good hire for a couple years. Even if Brantley came back I would have expected improvement from the team as a whole.
It wasn't intended to be grumpy (although I suppose it could read that way). More indifferent than anything else, and it wouldn't have mattered who was hired. I generally don't think there's much of a difference between hitting coaches.
It sounds like he's a good hire, I'm just taking a wait and see approach. And really, with so many Jays hitting below their expected production I'm not sure we'll know for sure if he's a good hire for a couple years. Even if Brantley came back I would have expected improvement from the team as a whole.
I agree. Simple randomness should give the Jays' hitters a boost in '08. I don't mind giving Denbo his share of the credit if the team bounces all the way back to '06 levels, but if they're just closer to mediocre then it's probably a lot like not having a coach.
Anybody else think Ricciardi has had his eye on this guy for a while? That's kind of the vibe I'm getting here.
Anybody else think Ricciardi has had his eye on this guy for a while? That's kind of the vibe I'm getting here.
It seems as though Denbo has been on the radar of the Jays for a few years. He once worked with Butterfield in the Yankees system. Perhaps that is one reason he ended up in Toronto.
Any idea why Dwayne Murphy, Al LeBeouf or Ken Joyce were not considered? Seems like they have all done a good job developing hitters for the Jays.
Anybody else think Ricciardi has had his eye on this guy for a while? That's kind of the vibe I'm getting here.
Ricciardi was quoted in the Sun that they'd tried to sign him a couple years ago for a minor league positions.
Ricciardi was quoted in the Sun that they'd tried to sign him a couple years ago for a minor league positions.
Any idea why Dwayne Murphy, Al LeBeouf or Ken Joyce were not considered?
According to this article on the Jays official site, Murphy was interviewed. There were apparently other people under consideration, but after being so impressed with Denbo, the Jays canceled the other interviews.
According to this article on the Jays official site, Murphy was interviewed. There were apparently other people under consideration, but after being so impressed with Denbo, the Jays canceled the other interviews.
And the Star is first out of the box with an interview with Denbo, here.
I like the words "disciplined" and "unselfish". Though I think it's a bit of a stretch to refer to Wells as among the team's "professional hitters."
However, if he can do something with John MacDonald. I'm all for it.
I like the words "disciplined" and "unselfish". Though I think it's a bit of a stretch to refer to Wells as among the team's "professional hitters."
However, if he can do something with John MacDonald. I'm all for it.
On one of the Cleveland - Yankee games, the announcers talked about how the Cleveland hitters looked at videos of the opposing pitchers, including during the game.
Denbo, I am told, is not only very much like Shelton with respect to coaching hitters...they are good friends. I think this will be a huge difference maker in every aspect of our offense. He is passionate and prepared and our hitters will know exactly how our opponents intend to get them out.
I was listening to WEEI on a drive to the city when Schilling came on and talked a little about preparation for the Angels....and the extent of which he studied video to know what he wanted to do with Figgens, Cabrera, Vlady, etc. He commented that the hitters probably did not even realize they were so predictable in certain counts, and given he had some extra time to study those numbers, he sounded confident and had good results.
This is Denbo. Great hire. I am excited.
The selection of Denbo makes me think that Ricciardi feels that Barnett was on the right track with his emphasis on studying video. Remember him - way back there before Mickey?
What I find encouraging is JP's comment that they need more emphasis on pitch selection and situational hitting. To me that means mainly trying to "go with" a pitch on the outer half when a single will score a run or at least keep a rally going. I've seen enough of Wells trying to pull an outside pitch and grounding to SS or popping up to short LF - usually followed immediately by a "F)ck!" that can be heard from coast-to-coast-to-coast and pounding the bat into the ground.
I was also intrigued by the comments regarding the Cleveland hitters' use of videos including during the game. However, video is not exactly a new medium. I know it has been used lots for years. It'll be interesting to see if this new old dog can teach any of our young pups something new, or more importantly, something better.
On our hitting... as has been spoken of elsewhere on the site...apparently Frank Thomas is going to up his hitting this off-season and take a full load of spring batting in games so he can start faster. Now that his ankle is well healed I expect serious improvement from him. Pity I don't hold out the same optimism for Troy.
Still, realistically we could easily get much better production from Thomas; and with improved health - improved performance from - Wells, Zaun, Overbay, Johnson (if still with the team)...Rios, Hill and Lind still have "growth" improvement in them. One guy in decline (Glaus) and six or seven looking to improve back to at least career averages. Offensively, we could be quite a bit better and I haven't even considered Stairs.
If Denbo contributes nothing new he'll look good. If he can actually help he'll look like a godsend.
If the anecdote about praise from Jeter and Posada is true, that should count for a lot. These are two experienced, excellent hitters.
At least it's settled and they found someone with good credentials.
At least it's settled and they found someone with good credentials.
I like the words "disciplined" and "unselfish".
"Unselfish" makes me a little nervous. There are several ways you could interpret it, obviously, but I worry it means sac flies and bunts. (not that the team couldn't do with a little more bunting)
Anyway, I like his credentials. I imagine his Job Description is pretty straightforward: 1) Fix Vernon Wells 2) develop Hill, Rios, and Lind 3) keep everyone else on an even keel.
I don't think Glaus really fell that far off of previous years...the main issue was not being able to play in about a third of the games. He really fell off the pace in July and August after posting a Pre-Allstar OPS of .886 (.784 in the second half) which I suspect had something to do with the increasing pain in his heel(s).
Or it may have also had to do with facing more RHP in the second half as his RHP OPS for the year was just .728, compared to .816 career.
Just about every Jays hitter had very poor RHP performance, unacceptable really. And just about every Jays hitter also had a severe home and away split, explaining the poor road record. I don't know how much the hitting coach can help with this but hopefully he can at least help these righty hitters get back to somewhat acceptable performance against righty pitching.
Other than that, the Jays need to add a capable lefty bat or two or three to balance out this unbalanced lineup.
I think unselfish in this context means not always going for the big hit yourself but being willing to simply get on base or keep the line moving for the next person. Or in certain situations like a lead off double, adapting that inside out approach to get that runner over even if you make an out.
To me I think the former is more important than the latter though the latter is not unimportant. Onbase percentage is the name of the game and the Jays simply have to be more selective and more of an all fields hitting team than they have been this year. Far too many routine grounders and weak flys/popups.
"Keep the line moving" was a phrase Mike Barnett used a lot, as I recall. Until John Gibbons convinced JP to hire his best pal as the hitting coach.
Well I'm in the camp that has no clue what impact hitting coaches have on hitters. That said, the Jays did seem rather predictable in various counts. There also seemed to be a mantra that Jays hitters will lay off fastballs in early counts. It always seemed Jays hitters were laying off what ended up being the most hittable pitch in the at bat to work the count. (Not a always a bad strategy but perhaps it was too obvious?)
As to studying film to improve at hitting. Interesting little tid bit. I'm working on the 1954 Topps set and they have little anecdotes on the back of the cards of each player. On the back of Ted Kluszewski's card. It made mention of how he had his wife film all his at bats. He spent the offseason watching his swing and found some holes in it. The next season he raised his average something like 60 points.
As you can see. They were watching film nearly 50 years ago. :)
As to studying film to improve at hitting. Interesting little tid bit. I'm working on the 1954 Topps set and they have little anecdotes on the back of the cards of each player. On the back of Ted Kluszewski's card. It made mention of how he had his wife film all his at bats. He spent the offseason watching his swing and found some holes in it. The next season he raised his average something like 60 points.
As you can see. They were watching film nearly 50 years ago. :)
I heard a interesting tidbit today, that the NY Mets will be moving into the Triple A Sky Chiefs Stadium in 2008, thus the reason the city of Syracuse put in real grass and removed the 10 year old turf. Any idea where that would put Toronto's Triple A club for 2008 and beyond?
Just in from hearing Denbo interviewed by Swirsky for 15 or 20 minutes. At first I thought it was going to be an interesting interview, with Swirsky rather boldly getting into the issue of Denbo pretty much stinking as a hitter in the minor leagues and how do you get accomplished major leagers to listen.
Denbo, somewhat surprisingly, seemed a little chagrined that his hitting stats had been quoted in the paper and admitted it might be an issue for some at first (he hit .208), the put it down to being used inconsistently as a utility player and that old mantra of failed hitters -- I coulda hit better if I'd been given the opportunity.
The rest of his answers were fairly predictable and close to what we've already read in the paper about preparing hitters — video of their good and bad at bats, video of opposing pitchers, getting them to work together as a team. Interestingly he gave pretty much the same list of "professional hitters" that he did in the paper, but this time included Stairs.
Curious that he never includes Glaus in this group.
And then Swirky just rambled on and on with some disconnected words that Denbo was forced to treat as questions and respond. That's when I turned it off.
Denbo, somewhat surprisingly, seemed a little chagrined that his hitting stats had been quoted in the paper and admitted it might be an issue for some at first (he hit .208), the put it down to being used inconsistently as a utility player and that old mantra of failed hitters -- I coulda hit better if I'd been given the opportunity.
The rest of his answers were fairly predictable and close to what we've already read in the paper about preparing hitters — video of their good and bad at bats, video of opposing pitchers, getting them to work together as a team. Interestingly he gave pretty much the same list of "professional hitters" that he did in the paper, but this time included Stairs.
Curious that he never includes Glaus in this group.
And then Swirky just rambled on and on with some disconnected words that Denbo was forced to treat as questions and respond. That's when I turned it off.
the NY Mets will be moving into the Triple A Sky Chiefs Stadium in 2008
Boy, I misread or misinterpreted THAT! Just to be clear, the scuttlebutt is that the Mets will switch their AA affiliate from the current New Orleans Zephyr to Syracuse (after the 2008 season). Makes good sense, in the same way Detroit moving their AAA affiliation to Toledo, 40 miles away, did a few years ago -- surprised the Yankees aren't in that discussion, too.
This is the article that was posted on Primer a couple days ago about the possible Syracuse switch.
The speculation is that Buffalo and Syracuse could be after the Mets for 2009. If Cleveland is interested in moving their affiliate to Columbus, that could leave Buffalo open to the Jays if the Mets do wind up with Syracuse. My fear is that with Toronto's lack of success at the AAA level, they may not be the most desirable franchise for a minor league team to join up with. That could result in the Jays winding up with New Orleans or some other franchise with a tough travel schedule.
The Yankees just hooked up with Scranton this past season, which is closer to New York City than Syracuse and has a recently renovated stadium. I doubt they'll be interested in chasing Syracuse.
The speculation is that Buffalo and Syracuse could be after the Mets for 2009. If Cleveland is interested in moving their affiliate to Columbus, that could leave Buffalo open to the Jays if the Mets do wind up with Syracuse. My fear is that with Toronto's lack of success at the AAA level, they may not be the most desirable franchise for a minor league team to join up with. That could result in the Jays winding up with New Orleans or some other franchise with a tough travel schedule.
The Yankees just hooked up with Scranton this past season, which is closer to New York City than Syracuse and has a recently renovated stadium. I doubt they'll be interested in chasing Syracuse.
It's somewhat interesting that Denbo is a bit self-conscious about his hitting numbers. But I think his attitude should be that it shouldn't reflect on his ability as an instructor. There are plenty of good major league hitters who would not make good hitting coaches. There are plenty of good hitting coaches who weren't necessarily the best hitters and I'm sure there are some who were never major league hitters (I think Larry Hisle?).
The same way a movie director doesn't have to be a great actor himself to find a problem with a scene and set forth a way to improve it. The actor of course is still the performer and the big money maker but the director certainly influences the way the actor makes his presence felt.
Larry Hisle was a hell of a ballplayer for about 7-8 years and if not for injuries in his early '30s might have posted near-Hall of Fame career numbers (short of that, but nearly, sort of a Rice/Evans type). He was one of the first really big-money free agents, leaving MIN after '77 to join MIL, and damn near won the '78 AL MVP to follow ... couple of guys named Rice and Guidry finished ahead of him.
So while you're right that there are some hitting coaches who never made the big leagues, or at least weren't exactly stars (Charley Lau comes to mind), Hisle does not fall into that category.
Off topic...but what the hay...
In the AFL:
Travis Snider: AB 2, R 2, H 2, BI 0, BB 2, BA 1.000
David Purcey: IP 2.2, H 1, R 1, ER 1, BB 1, SO 4, ERA 3.38
Can't we move April up four or five months. I want next year all ready!
I generally don't think there's much of a difference between hitting coaches.
I rather think they're like all teachers - no one is going to get through to everybody. Whatever the teacher says, it won't reach certain pupils and it's really not anybody's fault.
Which is why I always thought the Jays best situation was when they had multiple hitting coaches around - Gaston, Tenace, Hisle. There was the hitting coach of record, and then there were other people on the staff who had been hitting coaches (and early on there was also George Bell, special tutor to the young Latin players.) Hisle was a great one for working the data and understanding how the opposition was trying to get the hitter out; Gaston always wanted the hitter to go up to the plate with an idea - what are you going to see, what kind of pitch do you want to hit. Tenace was one of the most disciplined hitters who ever lived, and if I remember rightly also more of a swing mechanic than the other guys.
That can only work if everyone's on the same page of the program, and is aware of what everyone is doing - you couldn't have Gaston telling Liriano or Felix one thing and Bell telling him another (not that Junior Felix listened to anyone anyway)
I rather think they're like all teachers - no one is going to get through to everybody. Whatever the teacher says, it won't reach certain pupils and it's really not anybody's fault.
Which is why I always thought the Jays best situation was when they had multiple hitting coaches around - Gaston, Tenace, Hisle. There was the hitting coach of record, and then there were other people on the staff who had been hitting coaches (and early on there was also George Bell, special tutor to the young Latin players.) Hisle was a great one for working the data and understanding how the opposition was trying to get the hitter out; Gaston always wanted the hitter to go up to the plate with an idea - what are you going to see, what kind of pitch do you want to hit. Tenace was one of the most disciplined hitters who ever lived, and if I remember rightly also more of a swing mechanic than the other guys.
That can only work if everyone's on the same page of the program, and is aware of what everyone is doing - you couldn't have Gaston telling Liriano or Felix one thing and Bell telling him another (not that Junior Felix listened to anyone anyway)
"On our hitting... as has been spoken of elsewhere on the site...apparently Frank Thomas is going to up his hitting this off-season and take a full load of spring batting in games so he can start faster. Now that his ankle is well healed I expect serious improvement from him. Pity I don't hold out the same optimism for Troy. "
If Glaus is healthy and plays 130-150 games I don't see how he can not improve, at least in the counting stats. His .262/.366/.473 are above career averages except for the slugging which is marginally under so I really don't see a decline for a few more years.
Thomas' ankle problem was a break - they heal (er heel) over time. Glaus' foot problem is a chronic condition. If all he wanted to do was walk back and forth to the grocery store it might be able to be controlled with inserts etc. BUT to play 160+ games a year of baseball at the professional level - no way. As outrageous as it seems, we might actually be better off with Thomas at 3rd (joke!) and Glaus at DH (no joke).
RE: Glaus, Thomas and Denbo ... if the Jays have the money maybe Denbo can talk his friend Mike Lowell into signing and have him play 3rd, trade Thomas and platoon Glaus and Stairs at DH ...at least they would be a little bit faster as well as better defensively
I like the hiring for no other reason than this guys surname is a ready made nickname.
"J-Mac, why don't you go talk to Denbo , maybe he has an idea"
I disagree.
Mark McGwire lost half a season to PF and did a little some-somethin after that. Shannon Stewart lost a season to PF a few years back and is more or less as good as he was before.
there is little reason to think Glaus will be incapacitated in future years by PF.
(also, while not an athelete, I have had it myself - it's not a never-ending condition)
"Keep the line moving" was a phrase Mike Barnett used a lot, as I recall. Until John Gibbons convinced JP to hire his best pal as the hitting coach.
The Giants have fired their hitting coach, Joe Lefebvre. He is a hometown friend of GM Brian Sabean. Works both ways.
Dodgers have released Shea Hillenbrand.
Schilling has his house on the market here in Boston. Would Toronto be on his short list? He is very good friends with Butter?