Buster Olney, apparently busy using his Canadian phone minutes, reports that Vernon Wells will have offseason shoulder surgery to remove a cyst.
Although this doesn't sound serious, why not shut him down now? Let Lind play every game from now till the end of the season, use Stairs to spell off everyone.
I agree, Paul. It would be a good idea to get Lind consistent PAs, and the additional recovery time for Wells could not hurt.
The more I think about that, the more sense it makes - it must just make too much sense for Gibbons/Ricciardi.
There's an unabashed cynic in me that sees a team doing any number of questionable things in order to finish with 85-86 wins, to make the off-season more palatable than say a sub-500 record might. As such, we see a string of Roy Halladay complete games, we see the Thipgen/Olmedo/Lind troika sitting idle, we see two guys -- Accardo and Janssen -- showing fatigue in a 10-man bullpen, and now perhaps we'll see Wells needlessly forego surgery for a month.
The diehard fan won't confuse an 80-win season with an 86-win season. But maybe others will. What other strategy could there be? You can already anticipate the off-season yakkety yak. "We won 85 games and next year we'll be better. Wells, Overbay and Johnson suffered through injuries. Halladay and Burnett missed time. Ryan missed the whole season. With everyone at full force, this is a team that can win 90-plus games."
On the one hand, I agree - why wait? But on the other hand, it doesn't look like the usual, more serious shoulder surgery. If it's not hurting his performance and it's going to be relatively quick and easy, you might as well wait.
I don't think this was mentioned - apparently Brad Arnsberg thinks Brian Wolfe is a good fit for the rotation in 2008.
If it's not hurting his performance
Ack! It better be.
It would be very good news if Wells' 2007 season could be blamed on an easily removeable small lump of tissue in his left shoulder. I just don't know if it's true or not.
It would be very good news if Wells' 2007 season could be blamed on an easily removeable small lump of tissue in his left shoulder. I just don't know if it's true or not.
I was just hoping that it was the small lump of tissue that was telling him to swing at pitches a foot high and a foot outside.
What other strategy could there be?
In the second blurb of this notes column it sounds like the Jays will play younger players more often in 'meaningless' games, starting with the O's this weekend, and keep the regulars in now for games that impact the races.
In the second blurb of this notes column it sounds like the Jays will play younger players more often in 'meaningless' games, starting with the O's this weekend, and keep the regulars in now for games that impact the races.
In the second blurb of this notes column
From that notes column, Gibbons comments on Granderson: "He plays it right. Just a hard-nosed guy. Everything is full speed with him and he's a good defensive player."
You'll note what Gibbons didn't say. "But he has an enormous platoon differential and if we ever face him in a game situation in the 9th inning, I'll be sure to use one of my lefties."
For interest, here's a positional breakdown of our offense this year (ranked by OPS), compiled from ESPN:
- 896 - RF
- 836 - DH
- 784 - 3B
- 756 - 2B
- 739 - LF
- 729 - 1B
- 706 - CF
- 652 - C
- 596 - SS
- 461 - P
Credit to Mr. Stairs for improving the numbers at several positions.
you should have included league average numbers as well. the largest gap between the Jays positional OPS and the league average OPS is, of course, at SS-league average .712 for a difference of 116. the top OPS belongs to Baltimore at .835 for a difference of 239. other significant numbers are:
CF at 53 below league average, 203 below Detroit at the top
1B at 61 below league average, 252 below Tampa at the top (imagine no Stairs to pump up these numbers)
C at 61 below league average, 239 below NY at the top
From that notes column, Gibbons comments on Granderson: "He plays it right. Just a hard-nosed guy. Everything is full speed with him and he's a good defensive player."
You'll note what Gibbons didn't say. "But he has an enormous platoon differential and if we ever face him in a game situation in the 9th inning, I'll be sure to use one of my lefties."
Great call Chuck.
Granderson isn't just bad against lefties, he's awful. His OPS is .481 against LHP. Joe Kennedy could have gotten him out.How often does Gibbons do really dumb things like this?
you should have included league average numbers as well
If only I could find them today. Link?
Chuck, if we gave out Primeys, I'd nominate your last post.
Shut Wells down now. The earlier he has the surgery, the longer he'll have to recover and be ready for the spring, something he's notorious for being unready for. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by having him play now through a painful cyst that's hurting his game. Rios to center, Johnson to right, Lind to left for the last three weeks of the year. If Wells plays out the season, it will just be more evidence that this club's management is on autopilot.
It was nice to see Wells not blame his injury for his poor season. The problem with Wells this season has nothing to do with his swing. It's the fact he can't lay off fastballs high and out of the strike zone that has really hurt him. He had the same problem 2 seasons ago but made adjustments last season. I can only hope he makes adjustments next season.
I agree with the other folks that said the Jays should shut him down. The Jays won't make the playoffs this season and it's time to take a look at Adam Lind to see if he figures into the Jays plans for next season.
I agree with the other folks that said the Jays should shut him down. The Jays won't make the playoffs this season and it's time to take a look at Adam Lind to see if he figures into the Jays plans for next season.
So after he has this glorified zit popped, can he revert to 2003/2006
form? If this is even remotely serious, why not give him a day
off and play Lind? I think this whole business with V-Dub's
"injury" has been about as truthful as all the news about BJ Ryan's
"bad back" in the spring.
Quotation marks added for extra sarcastic emphasis.
Quotation marks added for extra sarcastic emphasis.
Why is it that no one has mentioned that both Vernon and JP knew of the shoulder problem before he was signed to his 126 million dollar contract. I was upset with the deal when it happened, and now I'm even more baffled that a guy that is not 100% healthy is given one of the richest contracts in MLB history. Yet another reason i hope JP goes this off season.
http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=62e20927-f133-4e16-8d39-5a2f07aa15f3
Vernon Wells will definitely need surgery on his left shoulder in the near future. But the details of the injury and its treatment remain less clear.
“Just a simple procedure to clean it out, free him up,” Toronto Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi said, while describing the problem as a cyst inside the outfielder’s left shoulder. “And he’ll be fine by spring training.”
“It’s a torn labrum,” Wells said. “And from the labrum being torn, I guess it created a cyst.”
Or maybe it is a bit of both.
“Either the labrum caused the cyst or the cyst caused the labrum,” Ricciardi said when asked to clarify his comments later.
Wells had hoped to keep news of the injury quiet, but hitting coach Mickey Brantley let it slip a few weeks ago. The centre-fielder would still like to finish the regular season, although doctors could shut him down early.
“We talked to the doctors and they say that this is a fairly simple procedure,” Wells said. “Obviously shoulders are difficult and you have to be careful with them. But it should be a full recovery and they said things will be back to normal once they’re done.”
Wells admitted the injury has caused discomfort that has affected his play.
After going 0-for-4 in a 9-2 loss to the New York Yankees Tuesday, Wells is hitting .249 and has 16 home runs, well below his .283 career mark and the 28 homers he has averaged over the last five years.
“You feel it and you try to change things so it (doesn’t) hurt as much,” he said. “And it’s just been kind of a downward spiral from there.
“I kind of hurt it last year and then just continued to play (and) it progressively got worse.”
So there you go, another hidden (for reasons that I cannot possibly phathom) injury to a major player who is trying to play through it but should have probably had it addressed.
And yeah, maybe it's an injury that shouldn't make Wells chase pitches out of the strikezone but if he has to change his mechanics to compensate for the injury he might lose a bit of bat speed or comfort in his swing and have to start early and cheat to get to balls. That means pitches that a few inches off he cannot let travel because he can't make his normal strength swing to get to them.
JP was on the FAN sometime last week I think when Wells hit that homerun in Fenway which was on a pitch up and outside. His contention was there can't be a significant injury if Wells can get to that ball. Well no...there isn't a significant injury...but there's enough of an injury that he can't get to it regularly and he can't swing regularly. And it's gotten progressively worse as he's played through it.
I'm beginning to wonder if the Jays front office and medical staff is just dense or if they're so desperate to maintain a .500+ record this year they're forcing Wells to play through discomfort rather than fix a shoulder that should have been fixed last off-season if the injury existed that long ago. Unfortunately, it's Wells, the team, and it's fans that end up having to pay for this kind of poor judgement that seems commonplace when this team deals with any injured player.
Troy Glaus is done for the year.
If the Jays were smart (yeah, right), they'd shut down Wells next.
A cyst causing a labrum tear? Really?
Here's Will Carroll's 2004 primer on labrum tears. If Wells really has a labrum tear, what is he doing out there? The hitting can't be good for the situation and the throwing from the outfield is certainly a bad idea.
Here's Will Carroll's 2004 primer on labrum tears. If Wells really has a labrum tear, what is he doing out there? The hitting can't be good for the situation and the throwing from the outfield is certainly a bad idea.
It's very interesting that Brantley broke the story: This takes some of the heat of him as a hitting coach, since instead of blaming Brantley for Vernon's struggles, we now blame Vernon's shoulder.
As I understand it, the tear is in his left shoulder so I don't think it's a problem for throwing. That is his lead shoulder for hitting though so it must be at least somewhat involved in his swing.
D'oh. It's the left shoulder. Thanks, RBillie.
Anyways, I can't for the life of me understand why he's playing if he has a torn labrum. It's not as though Wells is having a decent season, so if he sits and Lind and Johnson get playing time, no pennant contender would complain.
Anyways, I can't for the life of me understand why he's playing if he has a torn labrum. It's not as though Wells is having a decent season, so if he sits and Lind and Johnson get playing time, no pennant contender would complain.
Can't say that I am thrilled about Arnberg's comment about Marcum here. That's the macho player talking with no apparent knowledge of how the change in innings pitched from season to season can have an impact on pitcher injuries.
Arnsberg did throw 180+ innings at age 22. That was a career high.
If Marcum says he's tired, he's tired. Wouldn't a thoughtful coach want to know these things? Why is it that managers go out and ask a starter how he feels anyways?
If Marcum says he's tired, he's tired. Wouldn't a thoughtful coach want to know these things? Why is it that managers go out and ask a starter how he feels anyways?
Arnsberg's comments to the media are very rarely critical of his players - these statements about Marcum are very unusual, if my memory is correct. The only explanation I can think of for them is that Marcum and Arnsberg simply do not get along.
Either way, it's petty for Arnsberg to say these things to the media. They should be discreetly and properly communicated to a pitcher, unless that pitcher absolutely needs to be shaken - and Marcum's comments in the article, where he basically agrees with what Arnsberg is saying, tell me that he does not need to be shaken.
Either way, it's petty for Arnsberg to say these things to the media. They should be discreetly and properly communicated to a pitcher, unless that pitcher absolutely needs to be shaken - and Marcum's comments in the article, where he basically agrees with what Arnsberg is saying, tell me that he does not need to be shaken.
So Wells has had a torn labrym for all/most of the season (first year of $126 milion deal) which has had him in pain and struggling all year, and Arnsburg rips Marcum for complaining of being tired late in a meaningless year? This groups looks so hopeless sometimes.
The GM signed Wells to a massive long-term contract, apparently with full knowledge of the injury. Which shows they (the Jays) either don't understand that a torn labrum is a major injury that doesn't get better on its own (and indeed tends to get worse), or thought Wells was somehow immune to its effects. Either way, JP looks incredibly stupid here. You don't give franchise-level 8 year contracts to players you already know are damaged goods. Wells says he injured it last year sometime...perhaps the .633 OPS in September 2006 would indicate something was wrong that he couldn't just play through (not his worst month ever, but pretty close)? Unbelievable.
Arnsburg should be smacked (financially) for what he said, and JP should just step in a fake an injury for Marcum (hey, he's got a burgeoning track record of false injury claims already). From the general stupidity of the comment, I would guess that Arnsburg doesn't exactly tap Gibbons on the shoulder and suggest he stop running up high pitch counts for Burnett, Halladay, and the rest. Marcum threw 130 innings last year (AAA innings count, evven if mlb.com doesn't think so), 151 so far this year. And as I (and others) have commented previously, he was supposed to be a reliever. Training differs for startes and relievers, and there are very few who make the transition as well as Marcum did. If he is tired now, then Arnsburg should shut up and start planning how to finish the year and get him ready for next April.
I know the pitching has been great this year, but if the Jays got rid of the entire management (coaches and GM), I wouldn't be that upset.
The GM signed Wells to a massive long-term contract, apparently with full knowledge of the injury. Which shows they (the Jays) either don't understand that a torn labrum is a major injury that doesn't get better on its own (and indeed tends to get worse), or thought Wells was somehow immune to its effects. Either way, JP looks incredibly stupid here. You don't give franchise-level 8 year contracts to players you already know are damaged goods. Wells says he injured it last year sometime...perhaps the .633 OPS in September 2006 would indicate something was wrong that he couldn't just play through (not his worst month ever, but pretty close)? Unbelievable.
Arnsburg should be smacked (financially) for what he said, and JP should just step in a fake an injury for Marcum (hey, he's got a burgeoning track record of false injury claims already). From the general stupidity of the comment, I would guess that Arnsburg doesn't exactly tap Gibbons on the shoulder and suggest he stop running up high pitch counts for Burnett, Halladay, and the rest. Marcum threw 130 innings last year (AAA innings count, evven if mlb.com doesn't think so), 151 so far this year. And as I (and others) have commented previously, he was supposed to be a reliever. Training differs for startes and relievers, and there are very few who make the transition as well as Marcum did. If he is tired now, then Arnsburg should shut up and start planning how to finish the year and get him ready for next April.
I know the pitching has been great this year, but if the Jays got rid of the entire management (coaches and GM), I wouldn't be that upset.
With all this talk around here about getting rid of JP, Gibbons, Brantley etc, how about some real ideas on who to sign for those positions, preferably someone who is a) actually available, b) better that the guy they are replacing and c) would consider working for the Jays. Also, a little insight into why they would be better would be good. I just can't see the point of making wholesale changes just for the sake of change unless there will be an improvment because sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
I remember hearing earlier this year that JP could've insured every
contract on the team for $4 million for the year and declined, chosing
instead to "self insure", whatever that means. Does anyone else
remember this or have a link?
I bring this up because I'm wondering whether or not anything his been done insurance wise for V-Dub's extension. This was the last year on the old deal, but next year he begins as the $128 million man.
I bring this up because I'm wondering whether or not anything his been done insurance wise for V-Dub's extension. This was the last year on the old deal, but next year he begins as the $128 million man.
On the subject of who could replace JP - I'd love to see Paul DePodesta (and Joe Girardi), unfortunately does anyone believe that the situation here is that much more appealing to top flight managerial talent than it was in 2001? More than just the devil we know, I think JP is the best GM this organization could hope for and his replacement (when it comes) probably will not be someone with a name or a reputation... I doubt anyone of that ilk would ever be attracted to this organization. Perhaps this is just the pessimism of another season of meaningless baseball in September, but I'm not sure that it is.
I had a torn labrum the other year. The tear was a result of several dislocations, and so far as torn labrums go, mine was very bad.
The discomfort was such that I could not golf. I golf left handed, and my left labrum was torn. When the club would hit the ground, my shoulder felt like it would pop.
I do not know how bad VW's tear is, but from my experience, it does not seem like an injury which should be played through.
The discomfort was such that I could not golf. I golf left handed, and my left labrum was torn. When the club would hit the ground, my shoulder felt like it would pop.
I do not know how bad VW's tear is, but from my experience, it does not seem like an injury which should be played through.
i actually don't have a problem with what Arnsberg has said. Marcum has been mediocre to bad for some time now. He has pitched more than 6 innings exactly twice in his last 13 starts, dating back to July 7th. He only got over 100 pitches 3 times during that stretch. It's not like he has faded in his last few starts. And remember, he didn't go into the rotation until mid-May. When would he have faded if he began the year in the rotation?? Players have to take responsibility for their conditioning-he should have been prepared to pitch a whole season in the Syracuse rotation, so why wasn't he prepared for a whole season in the Jays rotation? Look at McGowan-he has actually gotten better as the year has gone on and you would think that fatigue would be more of an issue for him than Marcum (he is consistently above 100 pitches a game and not too far removed from TJ surgery). I agree with Arnsberg.
I remember hearing earlier this year that JP could've insured every contract on the team for $4 million for the year and declined, chosing instead to "self insure", whatever that means.
I don't know if this is true, but it's the right thing to do. I self insure all the time. You self insure every time you don't buy an extended warranty on your car, tv, stereo leather couch etc. When you buy insurance, you're paying for the expected payout plus the insurance company's profit. When you self insure, the cost is only the expected payout. We should only insure against acts that might ruin us or our family (death, dismemberment).
The Jays are basically saying that Rogers is our insurer and they can have the profit margin, instead of Lloyd's of London.
I don't believe that. Let's be honest, if you were an insurer would you insure the entire Bluejay's roster for four million bucks? Do you honestly believe you'd make any money on that deal?
Part of the reason teams are staying away from insurance is because its costing a huge sum of money and apparently they won't touch contracts over three or four years. You're better off self-insuring.
Part of the reason teams are staying away from insurance is because its costing a huge sum of money and apparently they won't touch contracts over three or four years. You're better off self-insuring.
So, who is the stubborn one. Why on earth would Vernon Wells be playing right now instead going for the surgery immediately. I'm not impressed and I don't think he is helping the team, even though he claims this has nothing to do with his rotten year. If it is not the injury, then what is the reason for the off year? Confidence level, lack of focus, pressure?
I think if this was a run of the mill season and the Jays weren't free falling from wild card contention, Arnsberg would have said something different about a first year starter and a guy who only started pitching in college to begin with. Every pitcher is different in their physical ability and experience and size and arm strength.
Arnsberg's claim of 165+ innings at age 21 is meaningless because Marcum was only just STARTING his pitching career at that point in college. And Marcum is on pace for more innings this year than Arnsberg had in his entire MLB career. This is Marcum's inning's pitched workload by year and I'm trying to figure out where he was "magically" supposed to have been conditioned for a 200+ inning workload:
2001, NCAA: 14 g, 8 gs, 53.1 ip
2002, NCAA: 17 g, 0 gs, 32 ip
2003, NCAA, Auburn: 45 g, 0 gs, 78 ip
2004, low-A, high-A: 25 g, 25 gs, 148.1ip
2005, AA, AAA, majors: 32 g, 27 gs, 165 ip
2006, AAA, majors: 39 g, 19 gs, 131 ip
So we have a guy who has never started more than 27 games or pitched more than 165 innings in a single year and he's close to passing that mark in a much more stressful environment this year (he's had to throw a lot more pitches to record those innings). His endurance does have to built up but it has to be built up over time and with conscious effort. It's not just going to be there magically because the guy is 25. In the second half of last year the Jays were calling him a reliever long term and that was his role the first two months of this year as well.
Another issue is he has a short armed delivery and not a regular windup. His arm works harder than guys like McGowan and Halladay who involve more of their whole body and take longer to get rid of the ball (note they're both also terrible at holding baserunners).
It just seems extremely odd to me to be critiquing a guy's ability to handle an experienced starter's workload when three years ago he only had 8 career starts under his belt and that was in college. If he's saying he's tired then the coaching staff should be looking at his pitches thrown, innings thrown, and history and determine that he's been worked harder than he's had to work before and they need to ease off and let him recover and strengthen and improve for next year.
The biggest risk for injury for any pitcher, especially the dreaded torn labrum, is pitching through fatigue when your mechanics start going all over the place. Pitchers should not have to be afraid their manhoods will be called into question if they're letting management know that they're tired. If the Jays care about the investment they have in their young pitching they should be actively helping these guys keep their endurance improving and their mechanics smooth, even in the off-season.