Now that almost all of the injured players are back and most of the dead weight is jettisoned, I am still waiting to see the dance around .500 end at some point. I think that there has to be a good win streak ahead to justify any optimism with this crew for 2008.

And it's not like spending money on those players prevented the Jays from getting other players that would be useful for the team this year.

While that's true, the Clayton saga represents more than just frittered away money (which is Ted's, not mine, so I don't care). It represents an egregious miscalculation. Either the brass truly believed that a 37-year old, replacement level calibre Royce Clayton could magically suddenly perform at a higher level, or, much more likely, the organization went into 2007 electing to punt on one of the 8 defensive positions, naively believing that this was an offense that could be papered over with the rest of the lineup. Such blinkered thing reveals a lack of appreciation of the disastrous nature of blackholes in the lineup and at that macro level of thinking, is a highly troubling blind spot.

Just a hunch, but I think we'll see Sergio Santos recalled in lieu of Olmedo.   Santos has been on fire - currently on a 7-game hit streak, going 12-28 with 8 RBI during the past week -- he's certainly an intriguing prospect at SS.    While Olmedo is better suited for a reserve infielder role, I don't think there's much upside beyond what you see (slick glove, decent contact hitter, no power).  

Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part...

I'd be stunned if it's Santos. His numbers aren't that solid (nice, but not "promote straight from AA"), he's apparently not great defensively, and I think you can make the case his career has already been damaged by being pushed too hard.

I'd like to see what Olmedo can do. More likely than not he's another John McDonald, but there's some upside.

There were plenty of 2nd baseman available this past offseason, and we do have a kid named Aaron Hill....

The solution was pretty obvious to this fan.

Now that almost all of the injured players are back and most of the dead weight is jettisoned, I am still waiting to see the dance around .500 end at some point. I think that there has to be a good win streak ahead to justify any optimism with this crew for 2008.

Hi everyone,

Long-time fan of this site, first time posting...  My birthday is coming up in a couple days and yesterday someone asked me what I wanted...  I actually said "Royce Clayton being jettisoned would be the best present " (besides the Jays actually playing well for an extended period but I think that may be too much to ask for at this point).  At least Stairs proved to be a great signing... I'd like to see him platooning with Thomas as others have mentioned. 

I don't think signing Clayton was a bad move in and of itself. Sometimes you get lucky with this sort of thing. Plenty of people, myself included, didn't think much of signing Stairs, either. And you can't really complain about John Thomson working out, either, since he never even threw a pitch with the big club.

That said, having Clayton and McDonald on the roster was absurd. And Clayton's time on the roster far outlasted any hope his career might escape the grim reaper.

I don't think signing Clayton was a bad move in and of itself. Sometimes you get lucky with this sort of thing. Plenty of people, myself included, didn't think much of signing Stairs, either.

The difference being that Clayton was signed to be a starting shortstop whereas Stairs was signed to be a 4th outfielder.

And the sometimes you get lucky with this sort of thing is exactly the problem. Clayton has been bad since age 30. He's now 37. What were the odds that the Jays would get lucky with this sort of thing? About the same as Adam Sandler winning an academy award? Praying for a miracle is not a sound organizational strategy. While very possibly yielding the same results, scaring up somebody else's AAA shortstop who at least had age on his side would have been a more creative attempt at dealing with the shortstop issue. Targeting a semi-famous 37-year old and engaging in wishcasting is hardly the mark of a visionary organization.

I still would have preferred Lugo to Thomas/Clayton. Yes, Lugo has stunk, but this is on the heels of many years of very consistent performance. There's no reason to write him off just yet.

So I wouldn't be certain that he can't bounce back next year.

Except that father time's clock is ticking and will strike 40 early next season.

And, if our eyes are to be believed, he just doesn't like right (I am a bigger fan of objective measurements than mere observation, but still....). Yes, a lot of that is the crazy Walt Hriniak helicopter swing, which looks bad even when the results are good. But he has seemed overmatched for much of the season and I'm not sure what the basis for optimism would be at this point.

Speaking of which, here's who I'd like to see join the team in 30 days (obvious returnees like Burnett and Chacin not included): Gronkiewicz, Banks, De Jong, Vermilyea, Adams, Olmedo, Santos, Lind

I don't think we'll see that many callups. JP doesn't usually call up many prospects and he said he's not likely to this year. I hope we'll see Fasano (make use of his ability to work with Thigpen and the young pitchers for a month), Gronk (who should be here instead of Wolfe), Lind (get him a few at-bats here and there) and possibly Adams (see what he has to offer).

Personally, I don't disagree with some of the other names you've mentioned, but I just don't think the Jays will find work for them. De Jong and Vermilyea could well deserve a few innings, but the Jays can't find enough work for Frasor as is and Gronk is (or should be) ahead of De Jong on the depth chart. Also, Vermilyea's had a dead arm at times this year and I wouldn't push him. With an 8th man in the bullpen (and possibly 9th if Chacin is back), the team would also be pressed to find Banks any innings.

I would really like to see JP make a push for a trade involving Michael Young over the off-season.

I think if we could offer a package involving Jesse Litsch and Adam Lind (or Reed Johnson, if they go for it) for Michael Young and maybe a mid-leve prospect in return. 

Jesse Litsch would have to be considered our Number 1 pitching prospect and Lind our Number 1 hitting prospect.  Texax got Atlanta's top 3 prospects for Teixeira, so it would have to be in that ballpark.  Teixeira also had only 1 year left remaining on his contract.

We would have a solid rotation of Hallday, Burnett, Marcum, McGowan and Janssen. 

We could have the following lineup:

1. Reed Johnson - LF
2. Michael Young - SS
3. Vernon Wells - CF
4. Troy Glaus - 3B
5. Frank Thomas - DH
6. Alex Rios - RF
7. Lyle Overbay - 1B
8. Aaron Hill - 2B
9. Curtis Thigpen - C

We would have a huge offensive improvement at SS.  Wells and Young might bring some special chemistry to the team.

I think if the Jays are serious about being contenders in the next 3 years, then JP has to seriously start considering making some moves.

I would really like to see JP make a push for a trade involving Michael Young over the off-season.

I think if we could offer a package involving Jesse Litsch and Adam Lind (or Reed Johnson, if they go for it) for Michael Young and maybe a mid-leve prospect in return. 

That would so never happen. As a DFW resident (but not particularly a Rangers fan), I can tell you -- and have previously on this site -- that Young is legitimately seen as a Ranger For Life in the same way Jeter is a Yankee. Young is more to the Rangers than their All-Star shortstop -- with the trade of Teixeira and the complete collapse of Hank Blalock, he is The Face of the The Franchise. And you want to offer a platoon outfielder and a kid pitcher (who, as someone has said here recently, is at an all-time high value) for him AND a prospect? Even if that was remotely fair value -- and it's not -- there's no way Jon Daniels makes that deal.

And oh by the way, that would leave the Rangers with who at shortstop? They did the Royce Clayton thing eight years ago.

Love the kid, but there's no clearer crystal ball than a K/BB ratio of 18/17 in 49.1 innings.

If you think that's his true level of ability, then yeah. But in AA this year, he was at 46/14 in 61 innings, in two starts at AAA he was at 10/3 in 15, and in his second tour of duty with the Jays he's at 15/10 in 30 - not spectacular, but a significant improvement on 7/3 in17.2 May innings. His rates were pretty good at A and AA last year, too.

He's not going to be Roy Halladay, but he's not Chris Michalak, either.

Laird wouldn't throw out 40% of baserunners with this pitching staff. But perhaps his late throws might not make it to the base in 2 or 3 hops.

I thought Stairs was a great acquisition in the off season, even at the time. I love the token Canadian to throw some love to. He played really well in Overbay's absence, I'd love to see him getting a few more AB's.

Agree totally. But the problem is that the FA and in-house minor-league cupboard is truly bare. This is one glaring area where JP needs to get creative and give something to get something. For example, the Angels have Cabrera, Brandon Wood and Erick Aybar all either on the team or very close to ML readiness. The famously risk-averse GM of the Angels does not trade his prospects, so JP could target Cabrera. His contract is about $8 million/yr., expires after '08 and he is not a huge dropoff from J-Mac in defense. For a team built to win now, like the Jays allegedly are, he might be a perfect solution. Could he be had for Lind and a pitcher? Who knows.

The point is not so much to say "get Cabrera", as to point out that it's likely that only trades are going to fill this hole in 2008. JP showed he can do this type of deal with the Glaus and Overbay trades, so let's all root for some youngsters like Litsch and Lind to keep improving their value this year.

For example, the Angels have Cabrera, Brandon Wood and Erick Aybar all either on the team or very close to ML readiness.

I think you're being overly generous with respect to Aybar. He's had 197 MLB at-bats and has hit to the whopping tune of 236/280/268. Last year in AAA, he had a .327 OBP.

This year and next, at least, I'm not convinced hed be much better than Rey Olmedo.

I don't fault JP for the signing of Clayton.  All he did was look at what FA's were available at the position and leaned towards getting a seasoned veteran to maybe inject some stability to the position.  Plus he hoped that maybe he'd catch lightning in a bottle like the Red Sox did with Alex Gonzalez last year.  I mean did anyone in the Sox organization (or the rest of baseball) expect him to hit .270+ for most of the year and play flawless defense?  I think JP was hoping for similar luck from Royce and didn't get it.

As for what next?  I think that JP is getting dangerously close to having to do what the Celtics just did...use the big chip kids you drafted to make a big splash with a trade.  Because both ownership and fans will be asking for quick results VERY soon.

The biggest issue (obviously) is the offense as a whole.  There are no .300 hitters this year like there were last year and there seem to be more K's this year than last (does anyone have the number from last year thru this many games?).  So not only are there more outs being made, but they're unproductive outs.

I wonder how Wells would've performed if this was his contract year?  Hmmmmm.

I'll admit that I find the post July 31 trade deadline rules a little confusing; but is it all possible that Thomas is placed on waivers and claimed in August? Somebody please tell me that remains a possibilty.

The only thing about Erick Aybar's minor league record that screams "decent hitter" is his low K rate.  He is young and may develop, of course.

Aybar's numbers say "slowly but surely" to me; the sort of hitter you really shouldn't rush, who should play more than 81 okay games at AAA. He reminds me of Cesar Izturis, in a way - Izturis had a very nice season at A+, but the Jays jumped him up to AAA. After a season and a half of pretty poor hitting, he was in Toronto. (See also: Lopez, Felipe)

I'd be willing to bet that the Blue Jays already put him on the waiver wire and he made it thru unscathed.  Meaning he's anyones for the taking.

But I believe the way it works is that every team puts most of their players on the wire and, since its revokable, if someone puts a claim in.  The team with the player has the right to demand a deal with the claim team or pull him back.  So that's why marginally inviting players like Thomas make it thru, because teams don't want to get "stuck" with them if they don't really want him.

I'm not a pessimist and I didn't think any of them would work out with the possible exception of Zam being worth something NEXT year.

Stairs is actually suprising me that any of them turned out well.

Re: 2nd baseman available last offseason

Belliard was the guy I had specifically in mind.   Note that 2nd baseman are far cheaper on the free agent market than SS's.

Given the cost of big league SS's and paucity of options in the coming offseason it is foolhardy not to move Hill there.  

Ummm ... where did you get those numbers from?

Pretty sure he's a .275 .350 .424 hitter in 2007

A young shortstop to target. He seems to be undervalued by the Cubbies:

Ronny Cedeno - last season was a wash-out, but he was only 23. He had an OBP over .400 and SLG over .500 in AAA in 2005 and this season too (really).

Huge upside potential, but his struggles in MLB so far should keep the asking price low. What's not to like?

Here's a funny article from Hardball Times that pokes fun at the Jays' offense:

www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-rod-traded-to-blue-jays-for-marcum-and-mcgowan

I am very dissappointed to hear JP's confident in John Gibbons. After numerous disputes with players on his team (Hillenbrand, Lilly, Tower's outbreak and Burnett's apparent displeasures), it seems to me that players lack respect for their skip. I am sure players have disagreed with moves made by managers like Jim Leyland, Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, or Tony La Russa, but you don't hear about anyone outwardly showing signs of disagreement with their manager.

I think we hear about disagreements with Gibbons more than any other team, because we follow the Jays more than other teams.  My guess is this happens fairly often whenever you have competitive men together in the same room/bus/airplane/hotel for extended periods of time.  Even a winning team like the Brewers have dust-ups, like after last night's loss to the Mets:

"When the half-inning ended, Estrada and Yost got into a heated dispute in the tunnel leading from the dugout to the clubhouse. Infielder Tony Graffanino stepped between them while pitcher Ben Sheets and pitching coach Mike Maddux stood in front of Estrada. "

Sound familiar?  I think if you're going to call for Gibbons' firing, it should be for his managerial decisions, and not for any perceived rift between him and the players.

Sound familiar?  I think if you're going to call for Gibbons' firing, it should be for his managerial decisions, and not for any perceived rift between him and the players.

I don't know. If a manager doesn't own the room then he's not much use. Baltimore turfed Perlozzo for that very reason. That said, from my perch 20,000 feet away, it seems that Gibbons does own the room, and that the dust-ups have been isolated incidents (though arguably more numerous than is reasonable).

Homeboy Texeira wants to play in Baltimore

I think homeboy Texeira will be happy to lay his head in whatever town Boras can scare up the fattest 9-figure paycheque. And the taste of winning he may enjoy while in Atlanta may put him off tier 2 teams entirely.

I agree Edmonton. 

Hillenbrand has shown us who is is at every Major League team stop.  Even after his  nonsense was handled in house, Shea was still chirping about it at Spring Trainng.  Everyone ignored him and I guess his next team decided to do the same.  Good decision.

Lilly lost a 7-0 lead and then had the audacity to behave as he did,  on the mound no less, with his comments to Gibbons in full view of the cameras.  No one's ever happy to be pulled (even tho he stunk!) but  tell me why is Gibbons getting the criticism for that?  Towers, the same thing.  He mouthed off, unfortunately not man-to-man....and Gibbons responded professionally, assuring us it was because of Tower's competitive nature. 

Jimmy Leyland left baseball years ago because he couldn't get the veteran players to do things his way.  He wasn't having any fun managing anymore and he had had it.  Now look what happens with the young guys who are following with enthusiasm.  You think the players like every decision he makes?

If you read more about the Milwaukee dugout dispute, you find out that Yost was calling the TEAM to task for their underachieving for the past 8 or 9 games.  Estrada thought he had directed the comments to one player in particular, and came to his defense.  Yost then praised Estrada for sticking up for his teammate bit reiterated it was directed at everyone.   Nothing wrong with a little fire.

Seems like Gibbons could be out of town and still get the blame when everything doesn't go our way.