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This Day in Baseball 28 July 2007: Messing with a Streak
I'm back online, and the winning streak ends. My fault. I should have known.

Never mess with a winning streak.

I'm sorry.


Ah, the little things that make you crazy. The Jays hit at least three balls that looked like they were going to clear the fence, until the ghostly breath of Luke Appling blew them back onto the field of play. In the fifth inning, with Uribe on second, Mackowiak flied out to Wells in right centre. Uribe tagged and lit out for third. Wells' throw from the gap ran out of steam as soon as it hit the infield - Clayton let it go past him, and it rolled slowly to Glaus, just behind Uribe. Glaus looked frustrated that Clayton hadn't intercepted the throw and relayed it. While it's normally not a good idea for an infielder to intercept a throw and relay it himself - this particular situation was probably an exception. Uribe then scored on a harmless little pop up that fell just out of reach of three fielders (although there are at least a dozen major league shortstops who make that play, although Royce Clayton, alas, isn't one of them.)

And then, in the sixth inning, Stairs muffs Podsednik's grounder and has to settle for the play at first base. Overbay almost surely makes that play. Unlike Stairs, Overbay is a professional first baseman, and perhaps just as important, left handed - he wouldn't have had to try to backhand the ball. Fields scored easily from second on Uribe's double, and while Podsednik might have scored from first on the same hit, there certainly would have been a chance for a play at the plate.

Anyway, let's observe my return to the internets with a Data Table. Here are the Game Scores for all 102 Jays starts this season:


                 DATE   OPP    RESULT  IP     H  R  ER   HR   BB   SO   GB   FB    PIT    BF   GSc    DEC
                                                                    
McGowan       Jun. 24   COL    W 5-0    9     1  0   0    0    1    7   14    6    109    29    91    W

Burnett       May. 16   BAL    W 2-1    9     3  1   1    1    2   10    9    7    103    31    85    W
Halladay      Jul. 22   SEA    W 8-0    9     3  0   0    0    1    3   11   13    111    30    83    W
Halladay      Apr. 30   TEX    W 6-1    9     5  1   1    0    0    8   16    3    110    31    81    W
Towers        Jul. 8    CLE    W 1-0    8     3  0   0    0    0    4   12    7     92    27    80    ND

Halladay      Apr. 13   DET    W 2-1   10     6  1   1    1    0    2   15   12    107    35    78    W
Marcum        May. 13   TB     L 2-1    6     0  0   0    0    3    7    5    5     78    21    76    ND
Towers        Apr. 15   DET    W 2-1    7.2   3  1   0    0    1    4   11    7     97    27    74    W
McGowan       Jul. 24   MIN    W 7-0    7.1   4  0   0    0    3    5    9    7    111    68    72    W
Halladay      May. 31   CWS    W 2-0    7     6  0   0    0    0    7   10    3     95    24    72    W
McGowan       Jul. 4    @OAK   W 10-3   7     4  0   0    0    2    4    9    8    101    27    71    W
Marcum        Jun. 16   WAS    W 7-3    7     3  2   2    2    3   11    6    5    101    26    71    W
Marcum        May. 29   NYY    W 3-2    6     2  0   0    0    3    6    8    3     95    23    71    ND
Litsch        May. 15   BAL    W 2-1    8.2   4  1   1    0    3    1   21    2     99    30    70    W
Towers        Jul. 21   SEA    W 1-0    6.2   3  0   0    0    2    4   10    6     97    25    70    W
Halladay      Apr. 24   @BOS   W 10-3   8     5  3   3    1    0   10   11    6    113    29    70    W
Burnett       Apr. 26   @NYY   W 6-0    7     4  0   0    0    4    5   11    4    113    27    70    W

Halladay      Jun. 20   LAD    W 12-1   8     6  1   1    1    1    4   12    9     98    30    69    W
Marcum        Jun. 26   @MIN   L 2-1    8     6  1   1    0    1    2    8   11     93    29    67    ND
Burnett       May. 27   @MIN   L 4-2    8     3  4   3    1    3    8   10    7    127    31    67    L
McGowan       May. 28   NYY    W 7-2    7.2   5  2   2    1    1    7    9    8    117    30    67    W
Burnett       Apr. 9    KC     W 9-1    6.2   3  1   1    1    3    5   13    4    103    27    66    W
Halladay      Jul. 17   @NYY   L 3-2    7     5  1   1    0    3    6   10    5    113    29    66    ND
Litsch        Jul. 25   MIN    W 13-1   7     5  1   1    0    1    4   12    4     84    54    66    W
Burnett       Jun. 1    CWS    L 3-0    7.1   6  3   3    0    1   12    9    3    118    29    65    L
McGowan       Jun. 8    @LAD   L 4-3    7     4  2   2    1    0    4    9    7     81    25    65    ND
Burnett       May. 11   TB     W 5-1    6.2   5  1   1    1    5   10    8    5    118    30    65    W
Marcum        Jun. 9    @LAD   W 1-0    6.2   7  0   0    0    0    3   11    9    109    27    63    W
Marcum        Jul. 1    @SEA   L 2-1    6.2   6  0   0    0    2    2   12   10    112    29    62    ND
Ohka          Apr. 29   TEX    W 7-3    7     5  1   1    0    3    2   11    7    102    27    62    W
Litsch        Jul. 3    @OAK   L 3-1    7     7  2   0    0    3    5   11    5    106    30    61    L
Burnett       May. 6    @TEX   L 3-2    7.2   7  3   3    3    1    9    9    7     97    31    61    L
Burnett       Jun. 7    TB     L 5-3    7     7  3   3    1    3   13   11    2    131    32    61    ND
Halladay      Jun. 15   WAS    W 7-2    7.1   7  2   2    1    1    6   14    3    110    27    61    W
Chacin        Apr. 17   BOS    W 2-1    6.2   6  1   1    1    0    3    6   10     97    25    61    W
Marcum        May. 19   @PHI   W 13-2   6     4  2   2    1    1    6    8    5     85    22    61    W
McGowan       Jul. 19   @NYY   W 3-2    7     4  2   2    0    3    3   14    3    112    27    61    W
Burnett       Apr. 20   @BAL   L 5-4    7     3  2   2    1    5    2   11    8    118    28    60    ND

Halladay      Apr. 19   BOS    L 5-3    7.1   6  2   2    0    3    2   13    6     95    29    57    ND
Marcum        Jun. 21   LAD    L 8-4    6     3  2   2    1    3    1    7    9     96    24    56    ND
McGowan       Jun. 2    CWS    W 9-3    7     6  3   3    0    3    5   14    5    103    30    55    W
Halladay      Apr. 8    @TB    W 6-3    7     7  3   3    1    3    7    9    3    113    29    55    W
Halladay      Jun. 10   @LAD   W 11-5   7     5  3   3    0    3    2   14    6    101    29    54    W
Halladay      Apr. 2    @DET   W 5-3    6     6  3   2    0    1    4   10    6    104    26    53    ND
Litsch        Jul. 15   @BOS   W 2-1    6.2   9  1   1    0    1    2   10   10     94    27    53    W
McGowan       Jun. 13   @SF    W 7-4    6     7  2   2    0    4    6    5   10     96    27    52    W
Burnett       May. 22   @BAL   W 6-4    6.2   6  4   4    1    2    8    8    5    104    27    52    W
Ohka          Apr. 18   BOS    L 4-1    6.1   4  4   4    3    1    3    9   10     87    23    51    L
Chacin        Apr. 6    @TB    L 6-5    6     6  3   3    3    0    2   11    7     82    23    50    ND
Towers        Jun. 17   WAS    L 4-2    7     7  4   4    1    1    4   11    4     81    27    50    L

Marcum        Jul. 18   @NYY   L 6-1    6     5  3   3    0    2    1    8    9     93    22    49    L
Marcum        May. 24   @BAL   W 5-4    7     6  4   4    2    2    2    8   10    101    26    49    ND
Ohka          May. 26   @MIN   W 9-8    7     8  3   3    0    2    2   14    7     94    29    49    ND
Chacin        Apr. 11   KC     W 7-4    5     5  3   3    1    1    4    9    5     79    22    48    W
Marcum        Jul. 13   @BOS   W 6-5    6     7  5   3    1    1    6   10    6    109    27    47    W
Ohka          Apr. 23   @BOS   W 7-3    5     6  3   2    0    3    4   12    3     97    24    46    W
Halladay      Jun. 25   @MIN   W 8-5    7     6  5   5    0    3    4   15    4    117    29    46    W
McGowan       May. 23   @BAL   L 5-2    6     8  3   3    0    2    3    7    8     89    26    45    L
McGowan       May. 12   TB     W 5-4    5.2   7  4   4    2    1    6   10    4     95    23    44    ND
Burnett       Jun. 12   @SF    L 3-2    4.2   6  3   2    0    2    4    9    5     82    22    44    L
Ohka          May. 14   BAL    W 5-3    5     5  3   3    2    2    1    5   11     91    22    44    ND
Towers        Jul. 2    @OAK   W 11-7   5     5  4   4    1    2    4    6    4     82    20    43    W
Marcum        Jul. 23   MIN    W 6-4    6     8  4   4    3    0    3   10    6     87    56    43    W
Towers        Jun. 27   @MIN   W 5-4    6.1   9  4   3    0    0    2   14    6     86    29    43    W
Towers        Jul. 27   @CWS   L 3-4    5.1   7  4   4    0    0    5    6    5     90    61    43    L
Halladay      Jun. 30   @SEA   L 8-3    6    10  3   3    0    0    3   12    6    105    28    43    L
Towers        Jun. 11   @SF    L 4-3    4     5  4   3    1    1    5    3    7     65    18    42    L
Burnett       Apr. 14   DET    L 10-7   5.1   7  4   4    1    1    5   10    5     95    25    42    ND
Towers        Apr. 27   TEX    L 5-3    4.2   5  5   5    3    0    7    5    6     70    20    41    L
Zambrano      May. 2    @CLE   L 7-6    2.2   4  2   2    1    3    1    4    4     66    15    40    ND
Marcum        Jun. 3    CWS    W 4-3    3     4  3   3    2    3    4    1    4     69    16    40    ND

Ohka          Apr. 12   DET    L 5-4    6     8  5   4    1    1    2   13    8     86    28    39    L
McGowan       May. 18   @PHI   L 5-3    4.2   3  5   5    0    4    5    7    4     86    21    39    L
Ohka          May. 9    BOS    L 9-3    4.2   6  3   3    0    5    2    7    4     96    24    37    L
Towers        Apr. 10   KC     L 6-3    5.2  10  6   3    1    0    6    6   10     83    27    37    L
Taubenheim    Jun. 23   COL    W 11-6   5     5  5   5    1    4    4    2    9     93    24    37    ND
Burnett       Jun. 28   @MIN   L 8-5    4     6  5   5    2    0    6    4    6     75    20    36    ND
Litsch        Jul. 20   SEA    L 4-2    4.1   5  4   4    1    4    2    7    5     80    22    35    L
Chacin        Apr. 28   TEX    L 9-8    5.1   7  4   4    1    4    1    7    9     95    27    35    ND
McGowan       May  3    @CLE   L 6-5    5     6  5   5    0    5    4    6    2    104    25    34    ND
Litsch        May 25    @MIN   L 4-3    4.1   8  3   3    1    1    0    8    7     89    21    34    ND
Halladay      Jul. 6    CLE    W 8-6    5.2   9  5   5    1    1    3   12    4     97    27    33    W
Ohka          May. 4    @TEX   L 7-1    7.1  10  7   6    2    1    1    6   14     97    31    32    L
Litsch        May. 20   @PHI   L 5-3    4     7  4   4    2    1    1    5    8     71    20    32    L
Towers        Apr. 21   @BAL   L 5-2    5     9  5   4    0    3    4    6    6    102    28    32    L
McGowan       Jun. 29   @SEA   L 5-3    5     8  5   5    0    3    4   14    3    101    26    32    L

Ohka          Apr. 7    @TB    W 8-5    4.1   6  5   5    2    3    1   10    6     83    23    29    ND
Halladay      Jul. 12   @BOS   L 7-4    5     8  5   5    0    4    2   11    6    112    26    29    L
McGowan       Jul. 14   @BOS   L 9-4    5     8  6   6    3    2    4    8    8    104    25    29    L
Towers        Jul. 16   @NYY   L 6-4    5.2   9  6   6    3    1    2   12    8    106    26    28    L
Chacin        Apr. 22   @BAL   L 7-3    4.1   5  6   6    0    2    1    8    6     68    21    28    L
Burnett       May. 1    @CLE   L 12-4   5     8  7   7    2    4    7    6    7    116    27    26    L
Litsch        May. 30   NYY    L 10-5   0.2   4  5   5    1    2    1    1    2     36     8    23    L
Ohka          Jun. 6    TB     L 6-2    3.1  10  5   5    0    1    3    6    2     55    20    22    L
Burnett       Apr. 4    @DET   L 10-9   2     5  6   6    0    4    2    3    3     55    15    20    L
Towers        Jun. 22   COL    W 9-8    4    11  5   5    1    2    2    8    5     95    24    20    ND

Halladay      May. 10   BOS    L 8-0    5    11  8   7    1    0    2   12    4     87    25    17    L
McGowan       Jun. 19   LAD    L 10-1   1.2   8  6   6    0    2    2    6    1     67    15    15    L
Marcum        Jul. 7    CLE    L 9-4    3.1   9  8   8    3    1    2    1   10     83    20    11    L

Halladay      May. 5    @TEX   L 11-4   5.1  12  9   9    0    2    3   15    3     99    29     9    L
Zambrano      May. 8    BOS    L 9-2    2.2   8  8   8    4    2    0    3    6     57    16     8    L
Halladay      Jun. 5    TB     W 12-11  3.1  12  8   7    2    1    1    8    6     77    23     6    ND


Some summary notes:

90+     Team was 1-0, starters were 1-0
80-89 Team was 4-0, starters were 3-0. Towers has the best No Decision of the season so far.
70-79 Team was 11-1, starters were 9-0. Marcum had both No Decisions.
60-69 Team was 11-10, starters were 11-4. Burnett had 3 very Tough Losses, Litsch had the other. And 11-10 is a shockingly poor record for a team to post when it's getting this type of performance from the starting pitcher. It's utterly and inexplicably Weird. 
50-59 Team was 7-5, starters were 6-2. Ohka and Towers each took a Tough Loss.
40-49 Team was 12-9, starters were 7-7. Collecting Cheap Wins were Marcum (2), Towers (2), Chacin, Ohka, and Halladay.
30-39 Team was 2-13, starters were 1-9. Collecting a Very Cheap Win was Halladay.
20-29 Team was 2-8, starters were 0-8.
10-19 Team was 0-3, starters were 0-3.
0-9      Team was 1-2, starters were 0-2. Halladay escapes with a No Decision in the worst start by a Jays pitcher so far this season.

There. It's like I never left....
Posted by Magpie on Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 12:50 AM EDT.
28 July 2007: Messing with a Streak | 32 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
King Rat - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 01:49 AM EDT (#172173) #
It would appear that we're about to have another controversy. Josh Towers was steaming after last night's loss.

In some respects, I can't really blame him. He didn't pitch all that poorly, and I was swearing all the way through the fifth, as Uribe made his merry way around the bases thanks to several miscues by the Jays, including, of course, Towers' own wild pitch. On the other hand, he appears to have absolutely punched his ticket out of town with this tirade, not that he was at all likely to stick around otherwise, and while I didn't think he was that bad I also didn't think that he was great by any means either. I suspect not much is going to change as far as we up here in the cheap seats are concerned, though things will probably be chilly in the clubhouse for Josh going forward.

We'll see what happens. Thus far, there haven't been actual or threatened fisticuffs, so in that regard at least we're ahead of last year.

[ Reply to This ]
dan gordon - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 02:24 AM EDT (#172175) #

Four times Marcum has started and given up zero runs (once giving up zero hits).  His record in those games is just 1-0 with 3 no decisions.  Once he has started and given up 1 run.  He got a no decision.  Five great starts and 1 win.  Another example of how misleading a pitcher's won/loss record is.  Marcum has been terrific since moving into the rotation.

[ Reply to This ]
Lefty - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 03:15 AM EDT (#172176) #
I could only watch the game till the fifth tonight because the local Whitecaps were playing tonight in town and Peter Beardsley was in the house.

Thanks for the link King Rat. Wow.

Anyway my take is that its nice to see some spirit from a player other than Greg Zaun, particularly one who is on the knife edge every game.

The comments published in that article do not diminish Towers in my estimation. To the contrary. Towers now has tenure, is veteran, said nothing more that what management might say on any given day.

If it was Zaun that had made those quotes he would be praised for his leadership, tenacity and  honesty.

Actually its all pretty tame compared to an average day in Da Box after a loss.

[ Reply to This ]
Twilight - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 03:36 AM EDT (#172178) #
For Towers it's just been a long string of bad luck. Though I do feel uneasy when he's out there, he has pitched much better than his record shows. Not a great pitcher, but not a bad one either. Especially when you see these defensive gems from many of the Jays, yet Towers never seems to get any help like that. Then he gets taken out and watches as another pitcher gives up the game and he takes the loss. I can see why he's angry. I feel for him.

That said, one thing Gibbons seems to be consistent with this year is pulling pitchers out after struggling, but he looks at the results of the plays, not the play itself. It doesn't seem to matter if a pitcher is really becoming ineffective or if he's just got some bad luck like a missed call or a defensive issue or someone leaning into a pitch. I've always believed in looking for signs that the pitcher's performance is degrading, like foul balls hit straight back, or pitches getting crushed, which would suggest that worse things are going to happen. If you go by results, sometimes the pitcher will come out prematurely, and other times, by the time you're making the change, the damage has been done.

[ Reply to This ]
Ryan C - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 03:43 AM EDT (#172179) #
I don't think we consistently show up as a coaching staff and as a team every day, and I think it shows sometimes

I wonder if it's significant that Towers chose to include the coaching staff in his quote?
[ Reply to This ]
GabrielSyme - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 04:55 AM EDT (#172180) #
Towers has the worst luck of any pitcher on the team- virtually every game I see him victimized by multiple cheap hits.  Two bloop singles and an infield single this game, and that seems about par for the course.  Can anyone tell me why Clayton was positioned so far up the middle on Josh Fields' single?  A right-handed hitter against a finesse pitcher?

[ Reply to This ]
CeeBee - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 08:24 AM EDT (#172182) #
When I saw that bloop I thought to myself, "End of Inning". Then I realized there was not a shortstop to be found and I wondered why as well. Seems like pretty weird positioning to me but maybe it's also Claytons lack of range coming into play?
[ Reply to This ]
NDG - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#172185) #
One of the things I've noticed lately is how bad the Clayton/Glaus combo on the left side of the infield is at getting to balls.  Glaus' mobility has gotten noticeably worse as the season goes on, while Clayton just isn't very good.  There's a lot of hits to the left side that shouldn't really be hits.
[ Reply to This ]
Kieran - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#172186) #
Completely off-topic...regarding suspended games.

This ESPN piece (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2951425&name=stark_jayson) about A-Rod's potential 500th HR happening 'back' in time got me thinking:

How are suspended games played when the teams' rosters are most likely different than when the game started. What if a guy on the lineup is now on the DL, or traded? What if the team has subsequently added new players to the roster since the initial game was started? Anybody know the details?
[ Reply to This ]
Dave Till - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#172187) #
Last night's game showed why the Jays do so much better at home. Of the four balls hit to the warning track, two, and possibly three, of them would have gone out at the Rogers Centre. That would have been about three more runs, and we'd all be writing this morning about how the Jays are still awesome and on their roll, etc. etc.

Poor Glaus was snakebit again - the soft liner that dropped in over his head was a tough play. It was in shallow left, down the line. And, with two on and two out in the fifth, he hit a screaming liner to right, but it was right at the first baseman. A few inches either way, and it's one or maybe even two runs driven in.

As for Towers: perhaps he just wants out. I'm sure he knows he's not part of the long-term picture here, and there are other teams that need pitchers. Or maybe it was just something he said in the heat of the moment. Who knows.

[ Reply to This ]
Frank Markotich - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#172189) #

For all the complaining about the team's defence, the Blue Jays are third in the AL in Deffensive Efficiency (percentage of batted balls converted into outs).

Towers has by far the worst ERA of any Blue Jay starter this year, and only Dustin McGowan has a worse career ERA.

Towers has a career ERA of 4.91 in over 700 innings. His "long string of bad luck" is now entering its seventh year.

[ Reply to This ]
VBF - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#172191) #
I think when Towers mentions coaching staff, he's directly referring to bringing in Tallet in that situation.

Before Uribe's hit it looked a bit like that was the inning to change the face of the game. I'd just as rather brought in Janssen. It's shocking how low Jason Frasor is on the totem pole.

[ Reply to This ]
ayjackson - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#172194) #

I feel for Towers, but Gibbons was right too - you can't throw a first pitch fastball in that situation to Uribe, right down the middle.

In the end though, hitting Pierzynsky on an 0-2 count is unforgiveable - if he doesn't do that, he probably cruises through seven innings of work.  While there were many small mistakes by the club that led to the loss, the HPB was one of them and Josh shouldn't call out his teammates (if that is what he's doing) when he's a contributor.

[ Reply to This ]
Seamus - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#172197) #
Im glad I'm not the only one who found last night's game to be really frustrating.

Partly because of all the unlucky breaks, and partly because this was yet another very winnable game that they let slip away.  Towers was right about that.

This team has found a way to lose games like this all year, it seems.  I'm not completely sure why or who's fault that is.

It will be interesting to see how the team does over this stretch against the White Sox, Rays and Rangers.  Coming into that stretch after having won 5 in a row, you'd think the Jays might be set for a major roll.  Though why do I have this nagging feeling that they aren't going to capitalize..

[ Reply to This ]
Mike Green - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#172198) #
Josh Towers is about league average for a 4th starter, and definitely above average for a 5th starter, Frank.  That doesn't justify ill-considered temper tantrums.

[ Reply to This ]
BigTimeRoyalsFan - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#172199) #
Being on a shorter leash than anyone else in the rotation, having to pitch in front of an inferior defence every start (Clayton usually starts when Towers pitches), and being pulled for Brian Tallet with a 3-2 lead in the 6th does justify temper tantrums. It's about time someone manned up to Gibbons' idiotic bullpen management and called him out for it. Kudos to Josh Towers for standing up for himself, and finally pointing out what has been obvious to me for quite some time - John Gibbons doesn't have a clue what he is doing out there.
[ Reply to This ]
Jordan - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#172200) #

This team has found a way to lose games like this all year, it seems.  I'm not completely sure why or who's fault that is.

I actually don't think it's a question of "fault," per se -- that is, that's there an identifable cause or two (a lousy closer, a clubhouse cancer, a hopeless manager) that can be excised, allowing sharp play to flow and winning streaks to ensue. I think it's that this team's combination of players and coaches simply isn't clicking, isn't going to click, and needs to be reworked.

I've seen a lot of ballclubs like this, and I've seen a lot of office workplaces like it too -- managers, employees and support staff that just don't complement each other well and from whom the maximum effectiveness is not wrung. A little absence of talent, a scattered lack of drive, a dash of leadership failure and a touch of plain old bad luck -- that's all it takes to upset the finely honed balance of any workplace, let alone one as extremely sensitive as a major-league baseball team. These Blue Jays suffer from all four of these defects to a greater or lesser degree. A few teams can rise above that situation; most can't.

What you hear individual players say subtly (and not-so-subtly) in public, what you can parse from knowledgeable observers like Blair, but mostly, what you can see on the field, indicates (to me at least) that this team isn't playing to its potential, and when that happens, it's almost always because the team -- in multiple ways, a few large, mostly small -- has been improperly assembled and directed. That's why I continue to say that if Ricciardi brings back essentially this same group of players and managers in 2008, the results will be about the same as they were this year, probably worse. I'm not saying blow up the team, but I am saying the pieces need to be reassembled -- and to some degree, replaced -- before next season begins.

Towers' eruption just makes it that much more likely I'll be right in predicting he'll be gone after the trading deadline. Go, Josh! :-)

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Seamus - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#172201) #
I agree with you, Jordan.

It is quite frustrating to hear JP say that he's planning on basically keeping this team intact for next year.

I don't think it needs an overhaul, but you're right, something isn't clicking properly.  An adjustment needs to be made I think.

I don't think that a GM is really doing his job if he claims that he's not really going to change anything about his .500 team.  The Tigers were in the World Series last year, and they went out and added Gary Sheffield.  Even though they were a great team already, I presume they hoped to still be better.   Does JP really think he doesn't need to try to find a way to make this team better for next year? 

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Dave Till - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#172202) #
Before I pass judgement on the team, I'd like to see the starting offense play together for a few weeks. Then we'll know whether J.P. should switch things around or not.

Perhaps the lesson of 2007 is that it is possible to have too many right-handed power hitters.

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Bailey - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#172204) #
Chacin was optioned to AAA.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070727&content_id=2113049&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor

I don't recall seeing that posted elsewhere. 

And Burnett is scheduled for a rehab assignment on Wednesday.



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Chuck - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#172205) #

that this team isn't playing to its potential

Just playing devil's advocate here, but what if this team is really just a .500 team, and that the potential they are not meeting is due to over-inflated expectations.

Maybe Zaun is really a 200-AB backup catcher. Maybe Overbay is in an age-appropriate decline. Maybe Wells is merely good and not great, despite the odd great season. Maybe Johnson really is a 4th outfielder who played over his head for a year. Maybe a 39-year old Thomas really can't slug .500 any more. Maybe Burnett is never really going to reach our idea of his ceiling with respect to performance and health. Maybe the dominating Halladay of 2003 is long past.

I'm not saying that all of these maybes are true, but I fear that more of them are true than many of us are willing to concede.

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Flex - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#172206) #
In a lot of ways this Blue Jays team reminds me of the Blue Jays team circa 1990. Although it's a lot less accomplished. That team almost had the makings of a great team, but it lacked the quintessential something that made a team a winner. So Gillick went and traded away two of his most consistent and talented players, McGriff and Fernandez, and got back some something new, talent and spark. It was a personality transplant as much as anything.

There are a lot of Vernon Wells supporters on this site, but I would argue, just from a gut instinct, that his is the personality that needs to be replaced on this team. He's talented, he's a very nice guy, but I'm not convinced the team will ever win with him leading it.

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groove - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#172207) #
Towers has always carried his emotion on his sleeve - he gets really excited when he gets critical outs and he also gets pretty pissed off when things don't work out in his favour (I'm more used to seeing this side).  I don't find this tirade out of character or unexpected.  He was pulled prematurely with a lead, and then gets pegged with a loss.  I would be pissed off too if that happened to me. 
 
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Dave Till - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#172208) #
I don't think Vernon Wells is the problem. And Richard Griffin agrees with me (I'm not used to agreeing with Mr. Griffin on anything):

You can't always judge desire just on perceived hustle. Some of the more gifted athletes in sports look like they're not trying, but it's just because they are so smooth at what they're doing that they look disinterested. [...]

The Gold Glove centre fielder falls into the category of the gifted. He often looks like he's just coasting, but he is always into game situations and is never surprised by anything on the field...which means he is paying close attention. He's one of the most intuitive baserunners in the AL. He sometimes puts too much pressure on himself at the plate to lead the Jays and just because he doesn't throw his equipment or swear loudly doesn't mean he's not connected to what's going on.

Wells, like Devon White before him, has the ability to (a) determine exactly where a ball is going to land, and (b) calculate exactly how much energy he needs to expend to get there. He doesn't work any harder than he has to, but he gets to everything he is supposed to get to.

(White was a master of this, by the way. He just seemed to materialize where the ball was going to land, and in plenty of time. I think he may have possessed a teleportation device.)

I've always thought that people are asking too much of Vernon Wells: his job description and his salary call for him to hit like Carlos Delgado and field like Devo. Very few people can do either of these things consistently, let alone both. Vernon is actually a lot like Joe Carter at the plate (and is roughly the same physical type). He's actually a bit more selective than Joe, and is a much better fielder.

I'd say judge him on what he can do, not what he can't. And he can do a number of things. It's not his fault that he's being paid all that money - all he can do is take the best offer given to him. Which he did.

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seeyou - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#172209) #
Am I the only one who doesn't find Towers' comments that inflammatory?

From what he said that was reported, I see three main points:
1.  Frustration with the fact that a bunch of small mistakes teamwide throws an extremely winnable game away.
2.  This team and coaching staff doesn't bring their A games to the table every day
3.  Gibby's bullpen management can often be confusing/atrocious

There's not much there I really disagree with.  In my opinion, this is just an emotional veteran player critiquing a manager's decision and trying to push his teammates into giving a more consistent effort. And I really don't see much of a problem with that.

At the very least, it's miles away from the juvenile antics of writing "this is a sinking ship" on a chalkboard or challenging someone to a fight. 

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King Rat - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#172210) #
I'm of two minds about what people are saying here. On the one hand, I think it's probably fair to say that this team is not quite as good as we all think and indeed, how they look on paper. So Ricciardi's stated complacency worries me more than a little. A better shortstop, more left handed bats, a different catcher-it seems to me that you have to change something about a .500 team. On the other hand, I'm rather skeptical of the missing spark theory. I thought that, contra what John Brattain is saying over at Primer, they have had something of a swagger over the last few games, and certainly there have been brief flashes this year of something better. What makes games like last night's so frustrating is that it's pretty easy to find two or three plays that could easily have gone the other way and that, if they had, would have led to a Jays win. And there have been, it seems to me, more of those games this year than there usually are.

As far as Towers is concerned, I don't mind it when players get upset when they lose-certainly you'd rather see that than apathy. I sort of tire of Josh always going off after a loss, but at least he cares. Barring a string of bad pitching performances, I don't think Jordan's prediction is going to come true, but of course I suppose that's what Jordan's prediction is based on.

This will sound foolish, I realize, but I'm starting to think that Josh Towers is an example of a man who wouldn't have been in Napoleon's starting rotation. Napoleon apparently used to ask one question when a general was up for promotion to marshal: "Is he lucky?" And I honestly can't think of a guy who's been beaten by as many luck related plays this year than Towers.

Please understand that I'm not saying that Towers would have been better than any of the other guys in the rotation if only the bloop hits at key times hadn't been exactly where no one could catch them. He'd be a solid fourth starter, about whom not much of distinction could be said. But it seems like every three or four starts of his, I start to crank up a defense of him that starts out by saying something like "Well, if that blooper down the line is foul..." or, "If  Phillips' fly ball isn't precisely in the middle of no-man's land..." and so on.  Obviously he's responsible for putting himself into these for-lack-of-a-nail situations, but I honestly can't think of another pitcher who's been so consistently beaten by them as Towers. This isn't a defense of him-as I say, he gets himself into these jams, and at a certain point, luck or not, you have to make a decision about a guy with all of this hard luck.

Anyway, it's a good matchup tonight. Maybe the Jays can get something started again...

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GabrielSyme - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#172211) #

seeyou,

I'm in general agreement.  I think Towers was dead on with regards to his comments, but I also think that in the context of this club, they're highly inflammatory.  Gibbons runs a laid-back clubhouse, and I think Towers' comments are a direct challenge to the results that's yielding.  Towers is an emotional guy, and oft-quoted, but I can't recall any other time he's criticized his manager, other players, or the coaching staff.  For much of last year he self-flagellated himself in the press, fully accepting his poor play and the results therefrom, so I have a hard time seeing him as a perpetual whiner.

 

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Lefty - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#172213) #
Maybe we should consider Towers comments as a valid warning akin to a "sparrow in a mineshaft."

It was only a week ago that Zaun said something like; "This team needs a couple more character guys."

There is something wrong with this team and I'm sure we could go on forever speculating.

I think its going to be tough to move Towers now, even if Ricciardi was planning too. If he does move him, he better be very careful in how he portrays it. 

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scottt - Saturday, July 28 2007 @ 11:38 PM EDT (#172214) #
The main problem in this series is Johnson having 7 hits in two games and no run scored.

Kinda reminds me of  the Yankees problems. Obliterating bad pitching, but not being able to score much against good pitchers.

Thigpen is supposed to be pitching 2 games a week. I guess the plan is to have him catch the young pitchers rather than use him  against lefties.

Not a whole lot of pitch hitting in this series either.

I really don't see what Clayton brings to the team. If you're going to platoon at short stop, the other guy needs to be a power bat, a left bat or a really good base stealer. 



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Mike Green - Sunday, July 29 2007 @ 12:21 AM EDT (#172216) #
The D-Rays have traded Cantu for a relief prospect and Wigginton for Dan Wheeler.  There are sighs of relief for miles around Tampa. I still believe that this is going to be a good club in 2009.
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BigTimeRoyalsFan - Sunday, July 29 2007 @ 02:26 AM EDT (#172218) #
Thigpen is supposed to be pitching 2 games a week. I guess the plan is to have him catch the young pitchers rather than use him  against lefties.

Another Gibbons mismanagement - he has not done a good job with Thigpen since the call-up. He has only caught one game. I thought today would have been the perfect day to give Lyle the day off. He had food poisoning and the dizzy spells earlier in the week, and the Jays were facing a tough lefty. If you aren't going to ever let Curtis catch, why not let him spell Lyle at first Saturday?

I really don't see what Clayton brings to the team. If you're going to platoon at short stop, the other guy needs to be a power bat, a left bat or a really good base stealer.

Nobody does. Everyone here has been screaming since basically late April to DFA Clayton. He has no business being on the team, and his defence at times is costly. I simply can't believe he continues to receive playing time, much like I couldn't believe Phillips continued to get playing time. There has to be someone in the minors who can be more useful in a platoon situation with the gold glover JMac than Clayton.

Why on earth is Vernon batting #4? It's bad enough he was taken out of the leadoff spot, the only place he was actually flourishing. He has no business batting behind Rios in the order - Alexis has been the better hitter for two seasons now. Also, Frank Thomas officially stinks. I don't care if he finishes with a respectable 25-80 sort of line. He isn't a good major league hitter anymore, he looks awful at the plate. He knows where every pitch is going (outside corner) and he still can't hit, not even the mistakes that float over the plate. At some point management needs to open their eyes and realize Matt Stairs is a better hitter this year, and should be the starting DH versus RHP. Many decisions made by management, both JP and JG, continue to mystify me.
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scottt - Sunday, July 29 2007 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#172234) #
As expected, we see Thigpen catching against a pitcher Gregg Zaun can hit.

Thigpen ends up scoring the first run on a walk which sets a big inning. If Thigpen doesn't get on base in the 8th, the Jays would have lost this game 1-0 as Overbay's sac fly becomes the third out.

It's quite early, but the Jays have a pretty good record when they field Thigpen.
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28 July 2007: Messing with a Streak | 32 comments | Create New Account
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