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The Yankees reclaimed second place in the AL East over the weekend by taking three of four from the Devil Rays. They'll try to make up some more ground on the Red Sox this week by throwing their Japanese import, their struggling ace, the 44-year-old guy they signed in midseason and their sinker master at the Jays.


Tonight's starter is the one and only Kei Igawa. Here is a link to Igawa's official website, KQUEST. Igawa was largely ineffective in his first few starts, prompting the Yankees to try to fix his mechanics in the minors while hoping for a miracle from the DeSalvos and Clippards of the world. Igawa was very good in four AAA starts, averaging 6 innings with a 2.88 ERA and a 3.86 K/BB, but it hasn't translated to the majors, where he's given up 11 runs over 15 innings in three starts since getting recalled.

Igawa has played as an extreme flyball pitcher thus far in the US. The YES network broadcasters think he likes working up in the zone too much and gets pulverized by the powerful North American hitters whenever he isn't keeping the ball down. He's a standard four-pitch pitcher who throws an un-overpowering straight fastball in the high 80s. I could see him being an annoyance against lefty hitters, since he's got a good variety of breaking stuff, but the changeup he leans on against righties looks pretty inconsistent. It's very hard to imagine Igawa having any success at all on days when he can't locate the fastball.

So maybe he's struggling on the mound. But character-wise, Igawa comes off as a sharp, quick-witted, magnanimous guy who'd fit into the Yankees clubhouse perfectly. This interview with SI's Franz Lidz might be my favorite baseball-related thing I read in the offseason. I won't spoil any answers, but it touches on, among other things, Igawa's motto, one of his personal heroes, Scott Boras' effect on Daisuke Matsuzaka's image in Japan, Igawa's secret ambition, his favorite historic figure, and the most exotic food in his fridge.

Andy Pettitte is struggling, fighting a losing battle against the hit gods. On a related note, he faces Roy Halladay. Pettitte gave up 8 runs in each of his last 2 starts before the all-star break, lasting 1.2 innings against Oakland and 5 against LA of A.

With all due respect to Pettitte and Halladay, the marquee matchup of this series takes place on Wednesday. Shaun Marcum faces the Yankees' sensational new pitcher, just signed off the street a couple of months ago, Roger Clemens. Clemens looked overpowering enough in his first few starts, but the Devil Rays made him look very ordinary over the weekend. Clemens gave up 5 runs over 5.1 innings, with 4 walks and 2 strikeouts. That sent his ERA above 4 and his K/BB plummeting back towards 2.

Clemens' power heater is only around 90 these days, but he can probably dial it up higher if necessary. Last time out, Clemens went to great pains to establish it the first time he went through the Rays' order. It's hard to draw any sweeping conclusions about a pitcher's approach from only watching one start but I got the impression Clemens is making a concerted effort to keep his curveball and deadly splitter shrouded in mystery until he desperately needs strikeouts. We shall see. This go-round in the majors, Clemens is likely to require A+ fastball location to succeed against American League hitting, since he no longer possesses the dominating no-hit stuff that could beat teams all by itself in the past. Even at 44, though, everything Clemens throws is heavy, so his groundball rate remains above-average in the high 40s.

Over his career against Clemens, Frank Thomas is 14-55 with 12 walks and 4 homers. Vernon Wells is 4-13 with two doubles and two walks. Alex Rios has a homer in 3 PA. The rest isn't pretty.

Thursday's matchup is solid too: Dustin McGowan against Chien-Ming Wang. Wang thumbs his nose at all those who said he couldn't survive without getting more strikeouts. He's increased his strikeout rate from 8.4% to 12.1%; it seems like a conscious effort to use more sliders against righties when ahead in the count is the cause. However, Wang's primary MO - lots of medicine-ball sinkers and the occasional mid-90s fastball to keep hitters honest - remains unchanged. And so does his ERA, which sits at 3.43 after it was 3.63 last year. And so does his reputation for efficiency: after averaging 6.6 innings a start last year, he's up to 6.9 in 2007. The Jays have not had great success against Wang. Their designated Wang-basher, Eric Hinske, is gone; Aaron Hill is 4-6 with a walk and two doubles and Lyle Overbay is 2-6 with a double, but the rest of the team is a combined 5-44 with five walks.

This is the first Jays-Yankees game since A-Rod needlessly upset a lot of people by doing something stupid and minimally beneficial to his team's cause the last time these two teams met. I wonder how exactly the Jays are going to go about beaning him, if they do. I'm not a fan of the retaliatory beanball, but if it has to be done to restore order to the baseball universe, my ideal scenario would be the ninth inning of a blowout with the returning Brandon League on the mound.

Jason Giambi is still a couple of weeks away from returning from his broken foot. In the meantime, he's talking with George Mitchell. Whatever that means.

His replacement is Andy Phillips. Andy Phillips' bat may not conjure dread in most pitchers' hearts, but he hit seven big-league homers in 263 PA last year. He's got some pop and can't be treated as a pitcher, even though the other bats in this lineup may make him look like one. Miguel Cairo may get one or two starts at first as well, and he may actually be a better hitter than Phillips, but Torre seems to like Phillips' reasonably hot bat.

The Yankees are carrying a three-man bench and eight-man bullpen in Giambi's absence. If the bench comes into play in any of the four games this series, someone probably has a double-digit lead. It consists of whichever one of Phillips and Cairo is sitting, plus outfielder Kevin Thompson and catcher Wil Nieves. Thompson stole 13 bases in 19 attempts in AAA this year while hitting .282/.385/.423 despite a worrying 18.9% strikeout rate.

Finally, the most intriguing pitcher on the Yankees this series, aside from possibly Igawa and possibly Clemens, is (for now) the eighth man in that bullpen. He's probably only here because of Giambi's injury. He's a slender 26-year-old righty reliever by the name of Edwar Ramirez. Ramirez was cut by the Angels organization after he hit a wall in A-ball in 2003 and spent the 2004 year out of professional baseball. After a brief and unsuccessful run in AAA with LA of A, Ramirez jumped to Pensacola in the Central Baseball League and taught himself to throw a circle change. It wasn't easy - "Sometimes I threw it in the dirt, sometimes I threw it [up into] the cage," he says, giving hope to amateur change-throwers across the universe who know exactly how that feels - but it eventually worked out. Ramirez was very effective in Pensacola, putting up a 1.45 ERA in 62 innings. When he repeated that production in Edinburg of the United League last year, the Yankees took notice. They signed him in midseason and sent him to Tampa. And suddenly he's here.

He's only pitched 2.1 innings in the majors this year, but he could already be the second-best reliever in New York's crowded pen. Perhaps that's a stretch. But aside from Rivera, I'd rather have my team face the devil I know than go up against Ramirez. The old reliable righty standbys of 2006 are pitching like self-parodies. Their strikeout rates are all dwindling at once, and they're walking their way into jams with alarming frequency and then escaping them with a potent combination of popups, atom balls and warning-track flyouts.

Meanwhile, Ramirez has absolutely obliterated all three minor leagues he's seen in the last 12 months. Last year, he put up 42% K and 5.4% BB at A Tampa. OK, but he was 25. Man against boys. No fair. So this year, he put up an 0.54 ERA, 49.3% K and 11.3% BB in 16.2 innings at AA Trenton. (Seriously! He struck out half the guys he faced!) But he was 26. No fair. So they gave him a shot at AAA, where he put up an 0.67 ERA, 46.5% K and 8.9% BB in 26.2 innings. Too easy. So they gave him the call when Giambi opened up a roster spot and let him make his debut at Yankee Stadium in an 8-0 game against the Twins. He gave himself a pep talk: "I said, You want to stay here? That's it, you stay here. You want to stay here? You stay here, so let's go." Then all he did was make some guys named Cuddyer, Morneau and Ford swing through his changeup in order, earning instant True Yankee points and a postgame media mini-circus.

Ramirez only throws about 90 with his fastball, but the Vanishing Changeup with Movement enables him to overpower good hitters. He also showed off a slider in that debut appearance, which can only help him avoid getting figured out by big leaguers and seeing his homer rate go through the roof. As a partial observer, I'm hoping Torre keeps Ramirez out of high-leverage situations for at least one more series. But I would like to see the man pitch at some point. I'm a sucker for this kind of success story.

The Credit Section: All offensive stats, pitches per PA for pitchers and league average stats are from the Hardball Times. Pitchers' stats and leverage indices are from Fangraphs. Minor-league stats are from Minor League Splits. K% and BB% are strikeouts and walks as a percentage of plate appearances; GB% + LD% + FB% = 100.


Advance Scout: Yankees, July 16-19 | 68 comments | Create New Account
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Craig B - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#171607) #
That's it... that's the worst bench in the history of God's Creation.  I bet the 1899 Cleveland Spiders had a better bench.  Can we sign Ken Huckaby on a four-day contract to injure some people?
Mike Green - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#171610) #
An eight-man pen?  Where will the madness end?  9 batters and 16 pitchers, I guess.  You'll have 8 relief pitchers per game, with one poor sop stuck throwing 2 innings and whining about it in the next day's rag. 
jeff mcl - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#171611) #
I had some pretty mean things to say about Hinske from 2003-05, but I never once called him a "Wang-basher."
Rob - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#171612) #
I bet the 1899 Cleveland Spiders had a better bench.

I'm never one to resist adding boring facts to offhandedly funny remarks:

Career OPS+ of Cairo, Nieves, and Thompson: 76, (not enough data), (not enough data).
Career OPS+ of Hemphill, Cross, Schreckengost, and Duncan: 105, 100, 90, 69.
Gerry - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#171613) #
ESPN believes the Cubs have acquired Jason Kendall for Rob Bowen and a minor leaguer. 
daryn - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#171614) #
I stuck my head in to say something about how Tabler and Black seem to be disappointed that Towers didn't throw at A-Rod, .....

But "Wang-basher" is too funny and I can't stop smirking long enough to put it together

cbugden - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#171615) #
I can honestly say that Rod Black is the most annoying announcer in the histroy of the franchise.  Why does he insist on talking continuously when he knows nothing about the game.  I can't bear to watch any more of the TSN coverage.
Manhattan Mike - Monday, July 16 2007 @ 11:40 PM EDT (#171617) #

Just got back from the game.

Couple of thoughts:

a) With the Yankees playing .500 ball, the abuse for someone wearing a Jays jersey and hat was a lot more subdued than usual.

b) I was shocked that Towers didn't throw at A-Rod. Where's the loyalty?

c) What was Gibby thinking in leaving Towers in the game with two out in the 6th? I thought Towers was looking shaky and tired. Should he really have been kept in the game?

BigTimeRoyalsFan - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 12:28 AM EDT (#171619) #
You don't send a message to A-Rod and/or the Yankees by having Josh Towers throw a fastball at him. That would be like the Americans dropping a molotov cocktail on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Magpie - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 12:46 AM EDT (#171620) #
by having Josh Towers throw a fastball

I know what you're saying, but Towers actually throws harder than Marcum and Litsch, and there are times when he's almost a match for Doc (who has dialled it back a bit these last two years.). He throws nowhere near as hard as McGowan or Burnett - but on the other and, he's probably more likely to hit what he's aiming it.

He's done it before, of course.
King Rat - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 01:17 AM EDT (#171622) #
Count me in the camp of people who have strayed from the good old ways of hard-nosed baseball regarding the A-Rod thing; it strikes me as mildly nuts to bean a guy for something that happened a month and a half ago. If guys want to slide hard into third, yell at him on the basepaths, tag him hard on slides, whatever, fine, but let's not give the Yanks a runner and get our starter thrown out for a bush-league play that, again, happened more than a month ago and didn't really affect the outcome of the game in question.

I can't really argue with the decision to stick with Towers in the sixth; he looked sharp against Rodriguez and Matsui, and had been mildly unlucky against Posada. It's true, of course, that Cano hammered the ball, but when the next batter is Andy Phillips, the man up in your bullpen is Downs, and Towers only needs one out to have a shot at the win...well, I would've left him in. It's also worth noting that Phillips' hit wasn't exactly a rocket off a meatball-Towers genuinely was unlucky to give up a hit on that pitch to that batter, I think. Them's the breaks.

Finally, I feel a little better about tonight's game than I do about the vast majority of Jays losses. I think it's the quality of pitching; particularly League's return. Dude looks more or less unhittable, and while I'm sure he'll have days when the fastball creeps up above the knees and gets hit, he looked like he hadn't missed a beat. It was also good to see the power from the lineup, though of course it was frustrating to see so many runners left on. In any event, I still feel reasonably optimistic about the remaining three games in the series.

Chuck - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 06:58 AM EDT (#171625) #

What was Gibby thinking in leaving Towers in the game with two out in the 6th?

Early in the season, many of us discussed Gibbons' apparent slave to the save decision-making policy. Lately, it seems that a slave to the win policy has been his achilles' heel. It seems that when pitchers are faltering in tie games, Gibbons keeps them in, hoping they'll get through the inning so that the Jays can score and reward them, and not a reliever, with the W. If you're going to have seven men in the bullpen, it seems absurd to not use them when indications are that your starter is out of gas, or at least no longer able to locate his pitches. (Phillips did hit a tough pitch, but given that he seemed to be expecting it, that certainly helped his odds.)

Manhattan Mike - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 07:15 AM EDT (#171626) #

It's true, of course, that Cano hammered the ball,

Right. And it was the sixth inning. And Towers had thrown 102 pitches. And he hadn't exactly been mowing down Yankee batter after Yankee batter all game. And there were two runners in scoring position.

but when the next batter is Andy Phillips,

Who is hitting .302 (albeit in 50 at-bats this season) with a .362 OBP. But this is irrelevant. Even if one looks at Andy Phillips the career .238 hitter, you still bring use the best pitcher available for the situation.

Further, even if there's a 1% chance that Andy Phillips is going to get a hit off of Josh Towers because he's Andy Phillips, you make the switch since there's probably a lesser chance that Andy Phillips would get a hit off of a fresh reliever who hadn't thrown 102 pitches and who hadn't given up 8 hits and a walk in 5 and 2/3rd innings (with three home runs) and who hadn't just left two runners on in the inning.

the man up in your bullpen is Downs,

Not sure what is the relevance of this statement. Downs being the man up in the bullpen is solely the responsibility of Gibbons. The Jays have other relievers that Gibbons could have called to start warming up. The fact that Downs was tossing instead of anyone else is Gibbons' fault.

and Towers only needs one out to have a shot at the win...

What?!?!? Are you really suggesting that Gibbons managed the game to the stat (Towers getting a shot at a win) instead of to the situation (pulling a starter who had thrown 102 pitches, was shaky at best all game and wasn't exactly keeping the Yankees at bay in the 6th? If that's remotely the case, Gibbons should be fired. A pro manager manages to the win, not to the stat.

well, I would've left him in.

And with the game on the line, you clearly would have made the same wrong decision in leaving Josh Towers face Andy Phillips that Gibby made.

It's also worth noting that Phillips' hit wasn't exactly a rocket off a meatball-Towers genuinely was unlucky to give up a hit on that pitch to that batter

No, it really isn't. Phillips didn't need to hit a "rocket off a meatball". Phillips needed to get a hit. And Andy Phillips did just that - got on base, much like 9 other Yankee batters in the 5 2/3rd innings that had preceeded the situation and much like he has been doing 36.2% of the time this year.

Towers may have been unlucky to have given up the hit but he shouldn't have been put into a situation where luck was going to play a role - a reliever with better skills at that point in the game would have been more appropriate than to rely on Towers' luck.

Frank Markotich - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 08:08 AM EDT (#171629) #
I would have taken him out because he's Josh bleeping Towers and miraculously the game is tied in the sixth inning and I've pushed my luck about as far as I care to.
Manhattan Mike - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 08:36 AM EDT (#171630) #

Frank,

Agreed. Like I said before, Towers wasn't sharp last night. He had faced 24 batters and given up eight hits and a walk before Andy Phillips stepped into the box. That he had just gotten A-Rod and Matsui to ground out is irrelevant since batters had gotten on base 37.5% of the time before Phillips (if you want to look at a small sample size). 

Also, it's not a matter of whether or not the Jays need to keep Towers on a short leash, which has been discussed ad nauseum here and in the press. It's about pulling a pitcher who had been shaky all night in a tie game after the said pitcher had had thrown over 100 pitchers and had left two runners in scoring position.

The very thought that Gibby may have left Towers in the game so that Towers could have a shot at getting the win makes my skin crawl. A win for the Jays is far more important than a win for Josh Towers.

Mike Green - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#171633) #
Is it my imagination or is Reed Johnson a little further off the plate than he was prior to his injury? Conceivably it could be an adjustment to the injury, I guess.

The sixth innings of Towers and McGowan on Saturday got me to wondering.  If you looked at all starting pitchers who had thrown 95-105 pitches at some point in the sixth inning and surrendered at least 2 home runs, and precisely 4 runs, what is the opposition OPS for the remainder of the at-bats against the starter in that inning?  I am guessing that it would be remarkably high, on the basis that you have 2 objective indicia of relative ineffectiveness and some tiredness.

I am delighted that League is back.  I will be even more delighted when Ray Olmedo, Lee Gronkiewicz and Curtis Thigpen join him.



timpinder - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#171639) #

I'd like to see Olmedo because I want to know what the fuss is all about.  I missed the game because I was working, but I caught bits of it on the radio between calls and I got the impression that Clayton gave less than his best effort on a play or two.  If that's the case then now might be the best time to bring Olmedo up and say good-bye to Clayton.

I'd also like to see Thigpen because Phillips is just horrible.  Sorry.

As for Gronk, who do you send down?  Frasor is the only pitcher in the pen with an ERA over 4.00.  The only way I see Gronk getting the call now is if a reliever is traded or injured.

Mike Green - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#171643) #
Brian Wolfe.  A reliever's ERA in 12 innings doesn't tell you much.  Wolfe has pitched all right, but Gronk is better.
Ryan Day - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#171650) #

To be fair, though, Wolfe also had a great numbers in Syracuse: 23 Ks, 6 BB in 26 innings, held batters to a .191 average.

I'd like to see Gronkiewicz up, too, but Wolfe's been pretty good and maybe has more upside. I don't think there's a huge difference in which guy is at the bottom of the bullpen.

Ryan Day - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#171651) #

Although: Is it time to bid adieu to Jason Frasor? He's maddeningly inconsistent, looking unhittable for weeks at a time and then giving up runs in bunches; on the whole, he's really an average-ish pitcher. His ERA+ last year was 109, this year it's 105. Is it time to take a chance on someone else?

Or do you think he'll get his head and/or arm on straight and be that unhittable pitcher for a whole season?

King Rat - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#171653) #
This is a forum (a forum, I say-I'm not referring to specific posters) that has hammered Gibbons all year long for showing no confidence in Josh Towers. He shows some confidence in him, it doesn't work out, and all of a sudden he should be Captain Hook.

Right. And it was the sixth inning. And Towers had thrown 102 pitches. And he hadn't exactly been mowing down Yankee batter after Yankee batter all game. And there were two runners in scoring position.

Actually, he had been mowing down the Yankees for the preceding three innings. Cano was the first guy to hit the ball hard since Rodriguez' home run in the third. He'd handled Phillips without a problem twice before. 101 pitches (my count) is not an excessive number, if he's only going to pitch to one more batter. And so on.

Not sure what is the relevance of this statement. Downs being the man up in the bullpen is solely the responsibility of Gibbons. The Jays have other relievers that Gibbons could have called to start warming up. The fact that Downs was tossing instead of anyone else is Gibbons' fault.

Who would you have had up, and when would you have started them? Towers handled Rodriguez and Matsui easily, and pitched well to Posada. Even if you start a guy the second Posada's single gets through the infield, he's unlikely to be ready for Phillips. Downs was up earlier in the inning, I can only assume to pitch to Cano if Towers had had more trouble with the first three batters of the inning. He hadn't. Cano hit him. Now what? Who would you have had up, and when?

What?!?!? Are you really suggesting that Gibbons managed the game to the stat (Towers getting a shot at a win) instead of to the situation (pulling a starter who had thrown 102 pitches, was shaky at best all game and wasn't exactly keeping the Yankees at bay in the 6th? If that's remotely the case, Gibbons should be fired. A pro manager manages to the win, not to the stat.

No. I am suggesting that Gibbons was showing confidence in Towers, and incidentally preserving his chance to pick up a stat. As I say, he had not been shaky at best all game, having settled down nicely after the third.

And with the game on the line, you clearly would have made the same wrong decision in leaving Josh Towers face Andy Phillips that Gibby made.

It's easy to say it was the wrong decision now. It certainly didn't work out. Saying that it was clearly the wrong decision oversells it by a ways, I think.

No, it really isn't. Phillips didn't need to hit a "rocket off a meatball". Phillips needed to get a hit. And Andy Phillips did just that - got on base, much like 9 other Yankee batters in the 5 2/3rd innings that had preceeded the situation and much like he has been doing 36.2% of the time this year.

Towers may have been unlucky to have given up the hit but he shouldn't have been put into a situation where luck was going to play a role - a reliever with better skills at that point in the game would have been more appropriate than to rely on Towers' luck.

My point is this: I would admit that I was clearly wrong, and that Towers was out of gas and that I and Gibbons were idiots if Phillips had gotten his hit by making solid contact off of a bad pitch. He didn't. he hit a bloop single off a pitcher's pitch. What, you think luck is something that only comes into play with Josh Towers? Downs could have been unlucky. Wolfe could have been unlucky. Janssen could have been unlucky. Again, if Towers had given him a fat pitch and he'd gotten his hit that way, I would agree with you that Towers had failed. I don't think he did.

I would have taken him out because he's Josh bleeping Towers and miraculously the game is tied in the sixth inning and I've pushed my luck about as far as I care to.

He's not John Wasdin. If you trust him to start at all, I don't see how he's out of the game by the sixth. Once you get into the sixth, when do you pull him, and for whom?

Look, I don't mean to say that it was a slam dunk that you leave Towers in to face Phillips. But it certainly wasn't a completely indefensible move, as some here are suggesting. And, in Gibbons' position, I would've left him in. It certainly didn't work out, but you can't judge a move strictly on the results.
Paul D - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#171657) #

Although: Is it time to bid adieu to Jason Frasor? He's maddeningly inconsistent, looking unhittable for weeks at a time and then giving up runs in bunches; on the whole, he's really an average-ish pitcher. His ERA+ last year was 109, this year it's 105. Is it time to take a chance on someone else?

What's wrong with average?   If you keep going through players in your bullpen, in the hopes of developing a bullpen where everyone is above average, I think you'er asking for trouble. 

That said, if the Phillies want to make a stupid trade for Frason, I think you do it.

Manhattan Mike - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#171659) #
This is a forum (a forum, I say-I'm not referring to specific posters) that has hammered Gibbons all year long for showing no confidence in Josh Towers. He shows some confidence in him, it doesn't work out, and all of a sudden he should be Captain Hook.

I don't think I've ever hammered Gibbons on this forum. And I typically don't hammer him in general so I'll disregard the first part of your statement because it doesn't pertain to me. Regardless, what Gibbons does as a whole has no bearing on what he did last night. For all I care - and for purposes of this discussion - Gibby could have pulled Towers too quickly in every one of Towers' career starts. It makes no difference to this conversation about whether Gibby should have left Towers to pitch to Phillips or not.

I assume that in not including my response to your comment about Andy Phillips being Andy Phillips, you agree with me that it was a silly thing to say. So I'll continue.

Actually, he had been mowing down the Yankees for the preceding three innings. Cano was the first guy to hit the ball hard since Rodriguez' home run in the third. He'd handled Phillips without a problem twice before. 101 pitches (my count) is not an excessive number, if he's only going to pitch to one more batter. And so on.

It is within the realm of possibility that the scoreboard in Yankee Stadium was wrong or that I didn't see the number correctly (I don't need or wear glasses) but the scoreboard read 102 pitches. That being said, my argument doesn't focus on the point that he had thrown 102 pitches. It's an important fact to input into the situation, of course, because it speaks to how much gas Towers had in the tank but it's certainly not critical. Far more important, of course, is the fact that the Yankee lineup was hitting Towers hard. The Matsui/Cano homers in the second were rockets and Posada's foul ball on the at-bat looked to be about six inches from the foul pole (from my seats slightly behind the third base bag it looked fair, I recall and I was happy when I realized that my angle deceived me) nearly made it back-to-back-to-back home runs.

And he had put two runners in scoring position. So to isolate Towers performance from the middle of the 4th inning (after Posada singled and Cano took Towers deep) to the middle of the 6th inning (after Towers struck out his only two batters in the 5th and then got the first two outs in the 6th), is hardly a complete picture of his start. More important is the 9 batters out of 25 that reached base before Phillips walked to the plate - a very solid .360 OBP and .333 AVG, or a pretty weak 1.59 WHIP.

There can be no argument made that Towers pitched a good game. He didn't. I wish he would have. End of story. If you can't realize that, we don't have anything to say.

Who would you have had up, and when would you have started them? Towers handled Rodriguez and Matsui easily, and pitched well to Posada. Even if you start a guy the second Posada's single gets through the infield, he's unlikely to be ready for Phillips. Downs was up earlier in the inning, I can only assume to pitch to Cano if Towers had had more trouble with the first three batters of the inning. He hadn't. Cano hit him. Now what? Who would you have had up, and when?

First, I was responding to your comment about Downs being the only person up. Second, after Posada singled, given the pitch count, Gibbons should have been prepared to pull Towers and warmed up his bullpen accordingly. Heck, an argument can be made that given the pitch count, there should have been a guy warming up just in case when Matsui was up -- to be prepared for any situation.

No. I am suggesting that Gibbons was showing confidence in Towers, and incidentally preserving his chance to pick up a stat. As I say, he had not been shaky at best all game, having settled down nicely after the third.

Confidence in Towers has nothing to do with managing to a statistic. So, incidentally, your point is irrelevant. And perhaps you were watching a different game than I was but Posada's single and Cano's deep ball in the fourth hardly represented Towers' settling down. And the fact that he struggled to keep the Yankees off the board in the first three innings is also telling. By no measure can Towers' performance not be considered shaky, even before the Phillips at-bat. I don't think anyone watching the game was going to call over the missus and say "honey, Towers is pitching a gem - he's gotten the last 5 batters out."

It's easy to say it was the wrong decision now. It certainly didn't work out. Saying that it was clearly the wrong decision oversells it by a ways, I think.

It would be easy to say that if I said it after the fact. But when I saw Arnsberg walk to the mound with Phillips preparing to bat, I said something unmentionable for mixed company, given the situation. That making a bad decision didn't work out should come as no surprise.

My point is this: I would admit that I was clearly wrong, and that Towers was out of gas and that I and Gibbons were idiots if Phillips had gotten his hit by making solid contact off of a bad pitch. He didn't. he hit a bloop single off a pitcher's pitch. What, you think luck is something that only comes into play with Josh Towers? Downs could have been unlucky. Wolfe could have been unlucky. Janssen could have been unlucky. Again, if Towers had given him a fat pitch and he'd gotten his hit that way, I would agree with you that Towers had failed. I don't think he did.

Now you are changing what you originally said ("It's also worth noting that Phillips' hit wasn't exactly a rocket off a meatball") to compensate for the fact that you are wrong. Watching on TV you almost certainly had a better vantage-point than I did as to whether or not it was a pitcher's pitch. But you're making a statement that can easily be attributed to any of the hits that Towers gave up and you leave yourself open to the counter-argument that , at that point in the game, Towers was more prone to giving up a very hittable pitch than someone in the bullpen. Anyone in the bullpen. And that's really what I'm saying.

He's not John Wasdin. If you trust him to start at all, I don't see how he's out of the game by the sixth. Once you get into the sixth, when do you pull him, and for whom?

I don't recall every saying that he's John Wasdin. I also never suggested that he should have been pulled after the fifth inning. Moreover, I did trust him to start. But the fact that the Jays trusted him to start doesn't bear any relevance with Towers right to go deep into the game. Towers is out of the game midway through the inning because he's thrown 102 pitches, has given up 3 home runs, 8 hits, a walk and 4 runs in 5.2 innings and has put the go-ahead run on third (with another runner on second). He's clearly in a jam and should no longer be trusted by that point.

Who do you pull him for? I don't know. But the Jays have a deep and solid bullpen so there are a host of options. You implied earlier that the only alternative was Downs and that's simply not the case.

Look, I don't mean to say that it was a slam dunk that you leave Towers in to face Phillips.

Great.

But it certainly wasn't a completely indefensible move, as some here are suggesting. And, in Gibbons' position, I would've left him in. It certainly didn't work out, but you can't judge a move strictly on the results.

Like I said before, I judged the move before the results and had Phillips grounded out, it would still have been the wrong thing to have done. Sure, JT would have been up for the win (like you mentioned earlier). But that doesn't make it the right move - the right move would have been to pull a starter who had given up 4 runs in 5.2 innings after he had thrown 102 pitches in a mediocre (at best) start against a division rival in a must-win game.


Doug C - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#171660) #

Towers may have been unlucky to have given up the hit but he shouldn't have been put into a situation where luck was going to play a role - a reliever with better skills at that point in the game would have been more appropriate than to rely on Towers' luck.

My point is this: I would admit that I was clearly wrong, and that Towers was out of gas and that I and Gibbons were idiots if Phillips had gotten his hit by making solid contact off of a bad pitch. He didn't. he hit a bloop single off a pitcher's pitch. What, you think luck is something that only comes into play with Josh Towers? Downs could have been unlucky. Wolfe could have been unlucky. Janssen could have been unlucky. Again, if Towers had given him a fat pitch and he'd gotten his hit that way, I would agree with you that Towers had failed. I don't think he did.

As I was TV coaching during last night's game, I agreed with Tabler (not always the best sign, I know) that Towers had Phillips set up for an inside fastball.  He had made the previous 2 pitches to the outside corner, and as evidenced by the way Phillips got out there on the pitch he hit, he was expecting it.  With the count at 1-2, I would have busted him inside.  Turns out, maybe I was right (at the very least, Towers and Zaun were not).

I have been thinking that Towers has been the victim this year of a lot of bad luck: well placed pitches that somehow turned into bloop hits.  Maybe its more a case of going to the same location once too many times in a row. 

 

 

King Rat - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#171665) #
Look, I don't want to turn this into a pissing match. It was a decision in one game out of 162, and it turned out badly. But to respond:

I don't think I've ever hammered Gibbons on this forum. And I typically don't hammer him in general so I'll disregard the first part of your statement because it doesn't pertain to me. Regardless, what Gibbons does as a whole has no bearing on what he did last night. For all I care - and for purposes of this discussion - Gibby could have pulled Towers too quickly in every one of Towers' career starts. It makes no difference to this conversation about whether Gibby should have left Towers to pitch to Phillips or not.

I assume that in not including my response to your comment about Andy Phillips being Andy Phillips, you agree with me that it was a silly thing to say. So I'll continue.


The bit about the Box in general being harsh on Gibbons' handling of Towers, you'll note, was specifically not addressed to you in particular. That said, I do have to wonder what Gibbons would have to do with the guy to not get hammered here. As far as point two goes, don't assume too quickly. If you want to say that a guy with a career OBP of .282 has figured out how to hit at age 30 on the basis of 50 at bats this year, knock yourself out, but I'm not going to be joining you on that limb.

It is within the realm of possibility that the scoreboard in Yankee Stadium was wrong or that I didn't see the number correctly (I don't need or wear glasses) but the scoreboard read 102 pitches. That being said, my argument doesn't focus on the point that he had thrown 102 pitches. It's an important fact to input into the situation, of course, because it speaks to how much gas Towers had in the tank but it's certainly not critical. Far more important, of course, is the fact that the Yankee lineup was hitting Towers hard. The Matsui/Cano homers in the second were rockets and Posada's foul ball on the at-bat looked to be about six inches from the foul pole (from my seats slightly behind the third base bag it looked fair, I recall and I was happy when I realized that my angle deceived me) nearly made it back-to-back-to-back home runs.

And he had put two runners in scoring position. So to isolate Towers performance from the middle of the 4th inning (after Posada singled and Cano took Towers deep) to the middle of the 6th inning (after Towers struck out his only two batters in the 5th and then got the first two outs in the 6th), is hardly a complete picture of his start. More important is the 9 batters out of 25 that reached base before Phillips walked to the plate - a very solid .360 OBP and .333 AVG, or a pretty weak 1.59 WHIP.

There can be no argument made that Towers pitched a good game. He didn't. I wish he would have. End of story. If you can't realize that, we don't have anything to say.

Without meaning to be curt, I never said he pitched a good game. I've been maintaining that leaving him in to face Andy Phillips was a defensible decision. It didn't work out, and certainly as a result Towers' start was a disappointing one.

I don't isolate his pitching from the fourth inning on to say that he'd been having a great start. I isolate it to show that he had been pitching well right up until the point that Cano hit his double. Guys get hit hard early and then settle down sometimes. This looked to be one of those times.

As far as the pitch count goes, we differ by a pitch. I could very easily be wrong about it, but like you I don't think it's particularly significant. As far as the Yankees hitting him hard is concerned, I suppose this forms the crux of our disagreement. I don't, obviously, disagree that the Yankees hit him early-I may need contacts, but I'm not blind. I say that his handling of the Yanks in innings 4 through 6 (until Cano) was something pushing Gibbons to let him pitch to Phillips. You think his pitching in innings 1-3 trumps it. I don't think your position is clearly wrong, but I (obviously, I suppose) don't think it's clearly right either.

First, I was responding to your comment about Downs being the only person up. Second, after Posada singled, given the pitch count, Gibbons should have been prepared to pull Towers and warmed up his bullpen accordingly. Heck, an argument can be made that given the pitch count, there should have been a guy warming up just in case when Matsui was up -- to be prepared for any situation.

It was a fair response. It's also entirely fair to ask how Gibbons should have handled the bullpen in response to that response. Gibbons warmed up Downs, I strongly suspect, for either Matsui or Cano, depending on the situation. But Towers handled Rodriguez easily, so going to him for Matsui wouldn't have made much sense, and going to him for Cano, I think, is certainly not the obvious move when Towers has handled two very tough hitters and given up a standard single. As far as the second part goes, this is exactly my question: what right-hander warms up and when? If you prefer Brian Wolfe in that situation, that's your prerogative, but I don't see the upside. Brandon League was marvellous last night, but it was his first game off the DL-you're not going to put him in that kind of situation right off the bat. Jason Frasor, I will grant you, was a possibility (as was Casey Janssen, but hoping for a manager to pitch his set-up man in the 6th is wishcasting these days). When does he start warming up? If it's after Posada, he won't, in all likelihood, be ready for Phillips. And I honestly don't see how you start warming up a right-handed reliever for Towers before Posada.

Confidence in Towers has nothing to do with managing to a statistic. So, incidentally, your point is irrelevant. And perhaps you were watching a different game than I was but Posada's single and Cano's deep ball in the fourth hardly represented Towers' settling down. And the fact that he struggled to keep the Yankees off the board in the first three innings is also telling. By no measure can Towers' performance not be considered shaky, even before the Phillips at-bat. I don't think anyone watching the game was going to call over the missus and say "honey, Towers is pitching a gem - he's gotten the last 5 batters out."

Giving a guy a chance to get out of a jam and incidentally have a shot at the win is showing confidence in him. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop acting as though I was saying that Towers last night was the best pitching performance I'd ever seen or something (That was Brandon League in the 7th! Wowsers!). But to say that he hadn't settled down in the fourth and fifth after a rough start to the game is a tough row to hoe, I think. Or is striking out Derek Jeter and Bobby Abreu back-to-back routine now?

It would be easy to say that if I said it after the fact. But when I saw Arnsberg walk to the mound with Phillips preparing to bat, I said something unmentionable for mixed company, given the situation. That making a bad decision didn't work out should come as no surprise.

 I'm glad to hear that you didn't second-guess it, and all credit to you. But for the reasons outlined above, I disagree that it was a bad decision.

Now you are changing what you originally said ("It's also worth noting that Phillips' hit wasn't exactly a rocket off a meatball") to compensate for the fact that you are wrong. Watching on TV you almost certainly had a better vantage-point than I did as to whether or not it was a pitcher's pitch. But you're making a statement that can easily be attributed to any of the hits that Towers gave up and you leave yourself open to the counter-argument that , at that point in the game, Towers was more prone to giving up a very hittable pitch than someone in the bullpen. Anyone in the bullpen. And that's really what I'm saying.

The statements are totally consistent. "I would admit I was wrong if he'd hit the ball hard" and "He didn't hit the ball hard" seem to me to jibe quite well. But maybe you can show me otherwise.

As far as the second part is concerned, I don't make that argument about "any" of the hits Towers gave up. I'd be a fool to make it about the homers or Cano's double, say. I make it about Phillips' hit specifically because, well, it happens to be true that Towers made a good pitch (though possibly to the wrong location, as other people have argued) and Phillips hit a bloop single. It happens.

As far as the counter-argument goes, "anyone in the bullpen" is not an option. You have the guys who are throwing, and in reality, that was Downs. Now, I've asked who you would have had up, and when. I'm not saying there weren't other options. What were they?

I don't recall every saying that he's John Wasdin. I also never suggested that he should have been pulled after the fifth inning. Moreover, I did trust him to start. But the fact that the Jays trusted him to start doesn't bear any relevance with Towers right to go deep into the game. Towers is out of the game midway through the inning because he's thrown 102 pitches, has given up 3 home runs, 8 hits, a walk and 4 runs in 5.2 innings and has put the go-ahead run on third (with another runner on second). He's clearly in a jam and should no longer be trusted by that point.

Who do you pull him for? I don't know. But the Jays have a deep and solid bullpen so there are a host of options. You implied earlier that the only alternative was Downs and that's simply not the case.

The John Wasdin thing was in response to Frank's comment, which you agreed with. If he's "Josh bleeping Towers" then yeah, you find another starter or pull him in the third or something. But if you trust him past that point, which I do, and which you agree that you do, then there's no way he comes out of the game after the fifth. There isn't a manager in baseball who would pull him after five(I know, you said you wouldn't either. This is going somewhere.) And then, once you're into the sixth, the questions start. He gets A-Rod and Matsui without a problem. You've got Downs up in case Posada gets into scoring position for Cano. He doesn't. So you let him pitch to Cano, and Cano hammers the ball. So now what? Bring in Downs to face Phillips? It's actually a reasonably high-percentage move, but not one that you've endorsed. And obviously Downs, while good this year against righties, is worse against them than lefties.

As far as the second part goes, in the reality of last night, after Cano doubled, Gibbons' choices were Downs and Towers to face Phillips. That's it. No other choices. I wasn't implying that that was the only choice available to him in the larger sense of guys warming up before the inning, after Matsui (why?) and so forth. But when Gibbons is faced with the jam, he's only got two choices. Now, you've said (rightly) that maybe Gibbons could have had someone else up, ready to come in case Towers got into trouble. But as I say, when do you start warming Mystery Reliever X up? It isn't good enough to wave your hand at what we both agree is a deep and solid bullpen, and say there's lots of options. Who do you get up and when?

Like I said before, I judged the move before the results and had Phillips grounded out, it would still have been the wrong thing to have done. Sure, JT would have been up for the win (like you mentioned earlier). But that doesn't make it the right move - the right move would have been to pull a starter who had given up 4 runs in 5.2 innings after he had thrown 102 pitches in a mediocre (at best) start against a division rival in a must-win game.

We disagree. There are reasonable grounds for disagreement. I appreciate you flying the flag in what is normally (if not last night, judging by your original comment) hostile territory. Let's hope they can get them tonight.
Mike Green - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#171669) #
If Towers had been pulled after 5, it wouldn't have been the quickest hook ever.  Geez, he's been pulled quicker this year. I am not saying that it would have necessarily been a good idea (in light of his pitch count at the beginning of the inning and the fact that the team is playing a bunch of games in a row), but it does seem to me that the score (and the desire to give him a chance to get the win) played a role in the decision.

The whole idea is that pitchers will throw better if they have the additional incentive of a possible win in front of them.  I have some doubt about the general idea, but in the particular case of Josh Towers, I think that it is nonsense.  He tries his best at all times, regardless whether he has the opportunity to put the W next to his name.  The whole concept is actually insulting to the player, when you think about it.

Frank Markotich - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#171671) #

Since I made the "Josh bleeping Towers" remark earlier, I feel I should expand on what I believe should have been done. By the way, I think everyone's  comments on this situation have been very thoughtful and interesting.

My approach would hinge on the fact that this is a crucial game and I've gotten 5 innings and 4 runs allowed from my worst starter and I'm still in it. I have Downs and Frasor start warming after the top of the sixth. I give Arod to Towers, although my knees would be knocking, because there is a series of lefties coming up after him (well, two lefties and Posada). After Towers retires Arod, I go to Downs. At this point Towers had thrown 87 pitches and if there were righties coming up I leave Towers in on a batter-by-batter basis.

So suppose I don't because I don't want to overtax the pen, and I'm encouraged by Towers' recent bout of effectiveness. He retires Matsui. Then he allows a single to Posada. Say I still leave him in. Now Cano hits a screaming line double off the CF fence hit so hard Posada can't score from first. Now Towers is at 102 pitches and 19 pitches for the inning. I think you just have to make the move now. If I forgot to have a righty ready, I bring in Downs for Phillips and take my chances.

Manhattan Mike - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#171672) #

Final word from me on the matter.

So you would consider the single that JT gave up to Posada in the 4th to be insignificant, I'm guessing? And the long ball hit by Cano that was caught in deep right to also be insignificant? And the hits that JT gave up after A-Rod and Matsui grounded out in the 6th to also be irrelevant, right? I simply don't agree with you (particularly about the slider left over the plate that Cano drilled in the 6th) about Towers' effectiveness and dominance after the third inning. Irrespective of the fact that Towers retired the side in the fifth inning, he was a pitcher that struggled mightily in the first three innings of the game, settled down marginally and then proceeded to put his team in a situation where the Yankees were about to retake the lead. While I wouldn't have pulled him after the fifth, I recognize that Towers isn't going to pitch a complete game or even see the 7th inning through.

So with all the confidence to Towers, it's the sixth inning and JT's pitch count is closing in on 100. Barring a miracle, Gibby is going to have to turn to his bullpen soon - whether it's sometime in the sixth (if things go poorly) or at any point in the seventh (if things go well). In all likelihood, the Jays are going to need more than two pitchers before the night is out. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that a lefty and a righty should have been warming up in the pen at the start of the inning so that you have options should Towers' performance turn south (which it proceeded to turn). Certainly this should be the case once Posada singles. There is no shame in having relievers warm up.  None whatsoever.

And again, a manager should NEVER manage to the individual pitcher's statistic. Whether it was the 4th, 6th, or 8th inning is irrelevant. Pitch count is far more important than the inning of the game. I would much rather JT call home after the game and say "I got pulled after 5.2 but we won" than say "Good news, honey! Gibby showed confidence in me after I pitched a solid 5th! By the way, we lost."

Showing confidence in Towers is not part of Gibbons job description, I'd bet. Winning ball games is. And to win ball games, a good manager leaves himself options. The fact that there was only one option in the 'pen when it was an almost certainty that the Jays would be needing to turn to their bullpen a few times during the game once the team entered the 6th inning and JT's pitch count was what it was speaks more to another Gibbons error than it speaks to what Gibbons should have done once there were two guys in scoring position.

Finally, but there are others suggesting that Towers threw the wrong pitch. Perhaps you believe (speaking with your post on the other topic) that if the Jays rid themselves of RIos and have Saltamacchia backstopping, the pitchers-pitches that Towers throws will be thrown on the correct side of the plate!

jgadfly - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#171676) #
Towers/Gibbons discussion... Why the vivasection of the Towers/Gibbons debacle when a more obvious reason for the loss would be the Jays having 24 baserunners but having 20 LOB's... some games are like this... if Gibbons or any manager gets 5 innings from any 5th starter in an almost "must win" situation and you have an above average bullpen with your Ace going the next night then I say you congratulate the pitcher on a good game and go with your strength... not your 5th best pushing his luck... IMNSHO...Seasons are lost when you miscalculate managing for the long haul when you should be managing as if there were no tomorrows... whatever that means??? 
King Rat - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#171677) #
At the risk of boring everyone else in the Box to tears, I'll respond, and that'll be that.

He gave up a single to Posada to open the fourth. Cano then hit a long fly ball. After that, he was very good up until Posada came up again, which Rob Black mentioned, and everything promptly went to hell. It seems to me that if we're looking for someone to blame, we might want to look beyond Gibbons and Towers, and to the man who can never be blamed enough, Rod Black. So to answer your question, no, I don't ignore the hits that Posada and Cano got off of him. But against a bad right-handed hitter with whom he'd had no problems earlier in the night, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to stick with your starter there.

Gibbons is definitely going to need someone in the seventh, and might in the sixth. Given Josh's right-handedness, and the way the Yankee lineup sets up for the sixth, the guys who he might need a relief pitcher for are Matsui and Cano. As it happened, it was his judgment, and I suspect the judgment of most people, that he didn't need to yank Towers for either of them. I think that if I have enough confidence in Towers to let him pitch to Alex Rodriguez and Hideki Matsui in a tie game, it's not unreasonable to let him pitch to Andy Phillips. You're right that there's no shame in having guys warm up. Gibbons probably should have had someone, likely Frasor, ready to pitch in a pinch. But in the situation that confronted him after Cano's double, leaving Towers in was not the straightforwardly boneheaded decision you portray.

It's Gibbons' job to put his players in a position to win ballgames. Part of that is giving them the proper motivation, and I would submit that jerking Josh Towers around like he did earlier in the season isn't helpful. There's not a sharp line between "showing confidence in your starter" and "trying to win ballgames." I seriously doubt that the win (stat), per se, was why he left Towers in-he did it because sometimes you have to let your pitchers pitch out of jams.

Finally, I see that we disagree on the Rios thing. I'm not saying you'd do it straight up. Saltalamacchia by himself isn't worth Rios. But it's a hell of a lot easier to find a hitting catcher than a good corner outfielder, and catcher is one of the positions the Jays absolutely have to improve at. For what it's worth, I did in fact run the deal by my Braves fan friend, and he thought it was too much to give up for Rios. Given the universal habit of overvaluing your own team's players, I thought that was interesting. The Jays' payroll situation is another thing pushing the deal-Vernon Wells isn't going anywhere, and whether they sign Rios long-term is an open question. Given that, if you get a good offer-and Saltalamacchia is definitely that, in a package-I think you have to at least consider it.

King Rat - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#171678) #
An embarrassing typo in the above post: It is, of course, easier to find a good hitting corner outfielder than a good hitting catcher.
Frank Markotich - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#171679) #
One could make the argument that Rios is a CF who happens to be playing a corner oufield spot at the moment.
King Rat - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#171680) #
One certainly could. That increases his trade value. The trouble on Toronto is that he isn't going to be starting in center, barring injuries (touch wood) for at least the next few years, if ever.
Manhattan Mike - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 08:17 PM EDT (#171682) #

Don't really know how the trade conversation made its way over here but here goes:

I know that there is a tendency to overvalue the team you root for's players. But I think of it this way: Alex Rios at 26 year old, is still arbitration-eligible for another 3 years or so. Cot's says he's had 2.13 years of service. So I assume that at the end of this year it will be 2.87 years before Alex has the six years needed to become a free agent. Bottom line: Rios isn't going anywhere anytime soon unless the Jays say so.   

Alex has had monster stats for the last two seasons. He seems to have the skill set, proven on the major league level in a tough division, of someone who can be reasonably be considered an all-star for years to come. His salary is far below his proven market value and he contributes both offensively and defensively. It is reasonable to imagine that as he ages and bulks up, his power stats will increase (Vernon noted that Rios has more power than him awhile back).

Now, on to the guy you folks are drooling over, Jarrod Saltamacchia. One of the top prospects at his position in the game, though mainly because of his offensive skills. Owing to his size and suspect skills defensively, there is talk of whether catching is the right position for him. So really, you can't even look at him as a catching prospect - he's more realistically a first base prospect and certainly not the next Pudge Rodriguez. 

So why make the trade? One would really have to believe that Saltamacchia will be an all-star year-in and year-out at the catcher position for the forseeable future in order to give up Rios. Because that's what you are giving up - a known all-star quantity. Since his defensive skill set isn't being talked about as being insanely good and, to the contrary, there's talk of making him a 1B, there's no reason to believe that the Jays are better off trading for Saltamacchia. The Jays are better off holding on to Rios, keeping Overbay and signing Jorge Posada as a stop-gap solution for the next few years while they see how Diaz and the other prospects develop. This is not to say that I like Posada - I think his stats are anamolous and signing him to a multi-year contract is a BIG risk on a team that already has enough risks in the lineup. I'm just presenting a smarter alternative for a team that to me seems a piece or two and some better luck with injuries away from winning a pennant.

Not that this matter, but consider: If it has the potential to be "worst trade ever" ten years from now, it's more likely b/c Saltamacchia doesn't develop than because Rios all of a sudden is 1/4 of the player he is today. I think that the Braves management would trade Saltamacchia for Rios in a half-second. And I think JP would try hard not to laugh if he got a phone call with that offer.

That's not to say that Rios is untouchable. If JP cared what I had to say and the options were available, there are a number of players and situations where trading Rios wouldn't be a mistake. But trading him for a catching prospect who is suspect defensively strikes me as a stretch. 

Not at the game tonight - watching on TV (sucks that I have to watch on the YES network and not have a 50/50 shot of hearing the Jays broadcast on Extra Innings due to territorial rights) because I figured that last night's pitching duel of the legendary Igawa and Towers would far surpass tonight's match-up between two pitchers who have historically been far more mediocre. Will try tomorrow.

King Rat - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#171683) #
Mike-

You'd voluntarily listen to Rod Black?

Man, is there anything we agree on, other than the inherent superiority of the boys in blue?

Manhattan Mike - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#171684) #

I would say that the Extra Innings package carries the opposing team's broadcast 2/3rds of the time. Trust me, you think TSN is bad? Try having to hear a broadcaster talk for three hours about either a team you don't care about or a team that he doesn't know anything about. There are exceptions, of course, but try watching the Rockies broadcast for 3.5 hours. Pretty soon, you'll be leading a write-in campaign for Rod Black to win the Ford Frick Award!

Which reminds me: I REALLY hate that stupid "Yankees win.... TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEE YANKEES WIN!" that the YES broadcasters do after the Jays lose to the Yankees. So pompous!

JohnnyMac - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#171686) #
Much is being said about the struggles of this club as seen by the posts above.

I am tired of people making excuses about this club.
Look no further than our friend Rod Black. "This Yankee linueup just wore them down".

BS! They simply capitalized on our glaring weaknesses. Zaun can't throw worth a lick, and our pitchers (Janssen aside) can't hold runners. It's disgusting. As well as he's pitched, Accardo's balk about sums up the season.

What a train wreck. This is nothing more than a .500 ball club... bottom line.

...Did I mention I can't stand Rod Black?

Gerry - Tuesday, July 17 2007 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#171688) #

Baseball wisdom states that clubs will win 50 games, will lose 50 games and it is what they do with the other 62 that determines the fate of their season.  The first two Yankee games fall in the latter category.  Last night the Jays couldn't get a key hit and let the Yankees get at least one.  Tonight the Jays took a lead to the ninth when Accardo fell prey to Yankee stadium'itis.  It is hard to see now how the Jays could catch the other wild card contenders.

Good teams put pressure on their opponents and capitalize on their opponents mistakes.  The Yankees have done that in this series, while the Jays sit back and wait for the big hit.  It's time for JP to follow the lead of his mentor Billy Beane and start trading excess parts.

FranklyScarlet - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 08:43 AM EDT (#171695) #

I have never seen anything like Bowa last night....making it into the batter's circle.  Wild!

 

Mike Green - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#171696) #
Good teams put pressure on their opponents and capitalize on their opponents mistakes.  The Yankees have done that in this series, while the Jays sit back and wait for the big hit.  It's time for JP to follow the lead of his mentor Billy Beane and start trading excess parts.

The Yankees effectively exploited the Jays' weakness at controlling the running game when it mattered most.  With Miguel Cairo and Melky Cabrera yet.

I would recommend waiting two more days to decide the team's trading posture.  Tonight, it is Shaun of the Almost Dead vs. the Friends of Mr. Cairo.  It should be interesting. Marcum has perhaps conquered the Posada bugaboo.
Jordan - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#171697) #

I was hoping a Jays pitcher would plunk Alex Rodriguez during this series, but last night in the 10th inning wasn't what I had in mind.

Thirty-three baserunners stranded in the last three games -- that about says it all.

paulf - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#171710) #
Manhattan Mike - that's 2 years, 130 days, not 2.13 years. 172 days make up a full year. The 130 days were enough to get him to "super-two" status and arbitration eligibility. But he does have 3 full years after this before free agency.
Dewey - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#171723) #

I’m listening to the Jays’ game on The Fan. And Jerry is driving me nuts. He simply seems unable to shut up. Ever. His voice drones on, and on, and on--sometimes pretty much ignoring what’s going on in the game--while he relates one of his “stories”, or asks Alan Ashby for the 1000th time this year about something that might have occurred to him in in “your 17 years in the big leagues”. When Jerry gets launched on one of his digressions it seems impossible for him to stop.

The issue here is not whether Jerry is a nice guy. The consensus seems to be that he is. The issue is whether he’s a good announcer. And that is very very debatable. I don’t watch the games on TV; I listen to them, usually in their entirety if I can take it, on the radio. Many people on the Box do not have the experience of enduring a whole gameful of Jerry. He’s seriously undisciplined with regard to insistently filling airtime--self-indulgent; and he's very repetitive. Does he imagine that each of us has tuned in for the first time, and hasn’t heard his store of reminiscences and uplifting observations a dozen times before? Jerry the explainer; the righteous custodian of family values; the keeper of Blue Jay’s history (which he joined a bit late, and it plainly bothers him). Jerry the incessant talker. NOT good announcing.

A while back I read an account of several players from Don Larsen’s perfect WS game who recently went to Cooperstown to view a newly-discovered videotape of that game. Someone later asked Yogi Berra for his impressions of the broadcast (which, of course, he’d never seen). What seemed to most impress Yogi was the announcer(s): they didn’t seem to think they had to talk all the time. There was some quiet air space. Jerry should pay attention.
jamesq - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#171725) #
....pause.........um...silence on the radio does not work all that well, it's like listening to the grass grow
Dewey - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#171727) #
"Some quiet air space" isn't silence, is it?   It's an opportunity to hear a bat hit the ball, to hear the crowd sounds, or maybe the the vendors; an indication that something is about to happen--on the field, where  the ball game is going on , and which is the reason I tune in, not Jerry's tired stories and endless pontifications.
Manhattan Mike - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#171728) #
For someone living outside Toronto, listening to Jerry is like going home in a time machine. I love it!
AWeb - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#171730) #
Enduring the perfect storm of suck these first three games, what with Black and Tabler announcing and constantly admiring even the mediocre Yankee players, 37 runners left on base (before the ninth tonight), a balk to score the tying run yesterday, 2 late blown leads, the Yankees being the ones doing it to the Jays...perhaps there should be a thread set aside to fill with more colourful language than usual, which could then be removed at a later time. Because these games have been --- ---- ------------- painful to sit through.

Best of all, it's really on the players. can't place much blame on the manager, the GM, the owner. OK, the Towers decision was debatable, but really, this is all on the utter and complete lack of clutch hits this series. It may not be a repeatable skill in the long run, but it's been plenty repeatable at the team level this week. AAaaargh.

ahitisahit - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 10:48 PM EDT (#171732) #

I think the Yankees can catch Boston. They might have to pick up a few pieces via trades, but their lead is getting smaller each day. If you can't take a series from KC, there's not much hope for you beating anyone better.

The Jays should be ashamed of themselves. It's frustrating to watch 2 runners on and none of them coming home. I would have to say the 3,4 and 5 spots were particularly weak this evening.

I thought Marcum pitched a hell of a game, but he doesn't have much to show for it. I also think the Jays are so imtimidated by the Yankees and their fans it's not even funny.

westcoast dude - Wednesday, July 18 2007 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#171733) #

I came in from shovelling dirt through a screen to make soil and flipped on Gameday to see Jeter get the hit to start the rout, maybe it's my fault. So no Jerry tonight. He repeated too many stories; what Dale Murphy had to say about his late 30s decline vs Bonds. Barry's given US Bonds a bad name, incidentally, as the Canuck buck heads to par, so Uncle Ted can take some solace there. I'm wondering how many will they have to lose before Ernie takes the reins? As many as it takes, boys.

China fan - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#171734) #
    A couple weeks ago, Jeff Blair's prediction was that Gibbons might be unable to survive a four-game losing streak without having his job in jeopardy.   We're getting close......
Frank Markotich - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#171740) #

I only saw the last few innings last night. This is just my impression, and may be a frustration reaction, but it seemed to me that the Yankees' approach with runners on was to go with the pitch and if necessary just stroke it the other way, whereas the Jays' approach was, well, I'm not quite sure.

And fer crying out loud, Posada was practically standing on top of the plate. Why couldn't League bust him inside once or twice? Everything was away.

Chuck - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#171743) #

Why couldn't League bust him inside once or twice?

This has been a common theme from many of the Blue Jay relievers this series: a fear of pitching inside to the LH batters, perhaps because of the vaunted "short porch". All of Posada, Cano and Matsui have slapped crucial opposite field singles, seemingly expecting pitches away. Towers' demise, if I recall, also stemmed from staying away just one too many times (though in this case to a righty).

Dave Till - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#171749) #
I'm in the pro-Jerry camp. Silence on the radio is a bad thing. There are worse alternatives than Jerry + Alan. You can probably recall some of them.

The really awful thing about the Jays' losses to the Yankees is that the Jays aren't that much worse than the Yanks. Two of the three games have been close, and the other featured Josh Towers, who can be counted on to surrender a vital home run at exactly the wrong time. (Towers has Jim Acker's Disease: 95% of his pitches are of major-league quality and location, and the other 5% are meatballs. There is no known cure.)

The Jays' offensive problems last night can be divided into three groups:
(a) Bad luck. Some balls were hit right at people, or to the deep part of the ball park, or both.
(b) Phillips and McDonald. How many times did the Jays have two on with one out, and these two coming up?
(c) Vernon Wells. He needs to move back to the top of the lineup, stat. He presses when there's men on base: he's being paid a zillion dollars, therefore he feels he needs to provide a zillion dollars' worth of production, therefore he pops up. As R.E.M. once put it: "Not everyone can carry the weight of the world."

At this point, I'd say that 2007 is pretty much a writeoff. But I still think - naive fool that I am - that this team can win, given better health and better luck. They're all pretty much going to come back next year; if they stop walking under ladders and start throwing salt over their left shoulders after they spill it, the team could do some damage. For example, you've gotta like a starting rotation of Halladay/Burnett/Marcum/McGowan/Litsch, no?

Seamus - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#171750) #
I too agree that this team could be good next year, with the continued development of their promising young players.

Although I'm starting to notice that I seem to say this every year.

greenfrog - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#171753) #
There are some good things about the Jays: some decent talent, some good players in their prime, and a promising 2007 draft. There are also some bad things. The team lacks depth, several players are perennial injury risks, a few clunker contracts, and significant weakness at a couple of positions. The team also seems to be missing something intangible, whether it's fire, competitive makeup, execution, or coaching. They have basically been a .500 team for the last five years under Ricciardi, and the farm system is widely regarded as one of the weakest in baseball.

I'm not sure what to make of all this. It's hard to see clearly when the team is stumbling (yet again). My sense, however, is that the team needs a new, more accountable, higher-performing front office.

FranklyScarlet - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#171754) #

News on Overbay from National Post - John Lott


Lyle Overbay was up before his hotel wakeup call in New York on Thursday morning. Moments later he was unconscious.

Just after answering the wakeup call, he said, he felt dizzy and sat down on his bed. Then he blacked out, and pitched forward to the carpet, banging his head on a chair on the way down. He figures he was unconscious for about a minute.

Sporting a large bump and red scrape across his forehead, and a cut on the bridge of his nose, Overbay was examined by a doctor in the Blue Jays clubhouse before the game. The doc said Overbay is fine, but the first baseman was scratched from the lineup as a precaution.

“I feel fine,” he said. “I wish I could be in the game right now.”

Overbay said he has experienced dizzy spells before, but the last time he passed out from an episode was 10 years ago. Team medical tests in spring training ruled out any serious problems, such as seizures, he said.

He expects to be back in the lineup on Friday night.

GregJP - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#171755) #
A few things...

1.  Important series against the Yankees and we get Black/Tabler, Black/Tabler, Black/Tabler, and nada.  That is truly pathetic.

2.  I remember a discussion a few weeks ago where we were comparing the Jays and Sox rotations.  I used  Shandler as a neutral source and quoted a 5+ ERA for McGowan for the rest of the year just after his 1-hitter.  Now I love McGowan's future, but truly at this point in time given his age, experience, and the AL east factor he is a 5 ERA pitcher.

3.  I hate to say I told you so, but this team had ZERO chance of making the playoffs after their horrendous losing streak.

Having said all of that, I really think the Jays (barring injuries) have a chance to be a 90+ win team next year.

Four Seamer - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#171759) #

I'm not sure why I'm about to do this (glutton for punishment, I guess), but here goes my best attempt at a limited defense of Rod Black.

While conceding the obvious - his baseball knowledge is suspect, he has little or no feel for the game, he is infatuated with certain players in enemy clothing - his detractors should also concede a few points.  Given TSN's limited Blue Jays schedule, they are not about to hire a play-by-play man with a set of baseball-specific skills.  Nor are there any (to my knowledge at least) credible, proven talents available on a freelance basis, even if there was an appetite to increase the cost of the broadcasts.  So that means that the job has to go to one of their current employees.  Off the top of my head, I can think of no TSN broadcasters who would do a better job than Black, and frankly, I suspect most would do worse. 

Now, the obvious retort is that if TSN isn't interested in putting together a solid baseball product, they should get out of the baseball broadcasting business altogether.  And perhaps with CBC getting back into the baseball business, this may be the result.  But Sportsnet, despite being owned by the same conglomerate that owns the Jays, obviously does not have an unlimited appetite for baseball coverage either - or else all the games would be on Sportsnet - so there is no guarantee that TSN's slate of games would just shift down the dial.  So the alternative to Rod Black is not necessarily a more competent/less aggravating announcer, but perhaps reduced television coverage.  There is, I suppose, the chance that somewhere within the bowels of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation lurks a future baseball play-by-play man (since Jim Hughson has indicated, I believe, that his play-by-play work this year is only a temporary measure and not the start of a renewed baseball broadcasting career), but that strikes me as a fairly faint hope.  

Manhattan Mike - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#171760) #

Has anything been said about why Reed Johnson is out today? After losing three-in-a-row (and scoring 4, 2, and 1 runs in those three games) against New York when the team is a few games below .500 and you're starting first baseman is out because of injury, it strikes me as odd that Johnson would get the day off today and Howie Clark is playing first instead of Stairs playing first and Reed in right. 

It could be a lefty thing but still, I'd rather have Johnson's right handed bat than Clark's left handed one.

Have the Jays given up, absolving Gibby of any responsibility for a season gone sour? Because if they haven't, I wonder why Gibby doesn't feel the heat to put out the best possible lineup this afternoon. Again, could be that Johnson is hurt or sore or something. Don't know. Want to though!

AWeb - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#171761) #
Reed probably needs a day off once in a while, recovering from a back injury. Oh, as I mention that, he's in the game as a defensive replacement. So it's a rest day, not an injury, one would assume.  And I hereby pre-emptively question the decision to leave McGowan in, even if he makes it through the seventh unharmed.
Chuck - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#171766) #

Johnson starting on the bench is not a terrible idea given the context: the back injury, the day game following a night game, his post-return slump. And it gave the team a RHB off the bench.

I imagine that Johnson will have to be coddled a bit until he's at full strength. Nothing unusual about that.

Mike Green - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#171768) #
faint hope

Is it coincidence that Four Seamer uses a phrase associated with efforts to end a prison term to a less than perfect baseball broadcast situation?  Perhaps not. We take these things pretty seriously.
Chuck - Thursday, July 19 2007 @ 06:00 PM EDT (#171774) #

While Four Seamer certainly waxed eloquent on the topic, I confess that all I will take away are "Rod Black" and "bowels".

Maybe if TSN let Jim Hughson broadcast from a studio in Vancouver, the gig might appeal to him. Or maybe let Dan Shulman broadcast from his home office in Hamilton (or wherever he lives). Who says the broadcaster has to actually be at the game?

scottt - Friday, July 20 2007 @ 01:25 AM EDT (#171785) #
Bottom line: Series  lost 1-3

Toronto wasn't outpitched and had more hits than the Yankees in the series.
Gibbons made several decisions that didn't turn out for the best.

The Sox are slumping as expected and the Yanks are only 7 games back now.

DepecheJay - Friday, July 20 2007 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#171799) #
Having watched 2 of the 4 games against New York in person, I will say this about the 2007 version of the Blue Jays.  They are one of the most boring teams I've seen the Jays assemble in a while.  It's absolutely painful to watch them with the bats this season.  They put no pressure at all on the opposition with the running game, which wouldn't be a problem if they were hitting extra bases and long balls like they did last season, but they aren't.  Gibbons needs to realize this and start making things happen.  I'm seeing a lot less hitting and running, stolen bases are non-existent, and mainly it's just guys getting singles and standing at first base until the next three guys are retired. 

Vernon Wells seems to have suffered a significant loss in power.  The few pitches that he hit really well this series died before the warning track and were harmless fly balls.  He also seems to have gone back in time and enjoys hacking at the first pitch and popping out in the infield.  I know they won yesterday, but still, 3-5 is nothing to be happy about.  This team needed a winning road trip in order to really make some noise, but as usual, they were just below 500.  That's what it's been all season. 

I'm tired of hearing about the talent, the injuries, etc.  This series was a perfect example of what's wrong with the Jays.  They put absolutely no pressure on the Yankees with runners on, strand a ton of baserunners, and just get absolutely destroyed in the running game.  I don't care who the blame is on, Zaun or the pitchers, but it's atrocious.  They just can't throw guys out and it kills them.

The pitching deserves so much better this season as well.  There's no reason that Shaun Marcum should be throwing a shutout into the 7th only to give up 2 damn runs and get the L.  That's just terrible.  The only guy who pitched poorly, as expected, was Towers.  This team has become entirely too predictable on offense this season and I think Gibbons, if he wants to keep his job, needs to start freshening things up.  Some more hitting and running, some more stolen base attempts.  What do we got to lose?  This team is quietly turning into a treadmill 500 team and it's been that way for a while now.  The team needs a winning attitude and the players can't be content with 3-5 road trips whether they be against the Red Sox/Yankees or out on the West Coast or whatever.  Sooner or later people need to be held accountable for the sub-par performances.  This team SHOULD be better than they are, but they aren't and things need to change.  The fans who have stuck around since the strike truly deserve so much better.

GregJP - Friday, July 20 2007 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#171812) #
Maybe if TSN let Jim Hughson broadcast from a studio in Vancouver, the gig might appeal to him. Or maybe let Dan Shulman broadcast from his home office in Hamilton (or wherever he lives). Who says the broadcaster has to actually be at the game?

LOL  Thanks, I needed a good laugh.  I'd even take Don Chevrier doing it from a golf course in Florida over that..........

I dunno, I see that Black does charity stuff, seems like a great guy, but I still want to strangle him every time he does a Jays game.  Maybe if Tabler wasn't so putrid it would be almost watchable, or maybe not.
Four Seamer - Friday, July 20 2007 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#171815) #
I'm just curious.  Do any of you guys have volume controls on your televisions?
Chuck - Friday, July 20 2007 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#171818) #

I see that Black does charity stuff, seems like a great guy,

Hey, Stephen Lewis is such a great Canadian he should have his face on our currency but that doesn't mean he deserves a pass when it comes to filling a job he's not qualified for, at least not if that job is as a broadcaster of sporting events that I watch.

Rod Black may be the nicest biped on the third rock but that shouldn't mean he's allowed to inflict his broadcasting skills on the rest of us.

If only I could find that damned volume control... just too many buttons on my remote.

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