I have to go Seaver, Clemens, Ryan, Gibson and Stieb. I know one of these things is not like the other, but he is certainly no slouch and I needed a Jay in there...

Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson

I've decided I get to pick what version of each guy I get, since this season is eternal, I clearly have some sort of time machine. So I'm going with :
1999-2000 Pedro...most dominant ever.
1912-1913. Walter Johnson (who pitched out of the pen some that year, and can pick up the inevitable 4 starts Pedro misses).
1994-95 Maddux to frustrate the poor opposing batter between flamethrowers.
1930-1931 Lefty Grove, another guy who can relieve when required.
1900-01 Cy Young...a vastly under-rated pitcher. Walter Johnson would need to add 1440 innings of 105 ERA+ pitching to match his innings pitched. And if the game goes to extras, I know he'll just keep pitching.

Clemens, Koufax, Maddux, (Randy) Johnson, (Pedro) Martinez

I feel bad for not including more old guys.

Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Steve Carleton,  Walter Johnson

Tough exercise!  I went with my heart as the Ace, but in his prime, Pedro was the best ever!!!

Oooh, that's a tricky one. 

I'll take Pedro, <i>both</i> Johnsons, Koufax and Grove. 

Last cuts were Niekro and Young, but good Pedro was something to watch....

Koufax, Clemens, Bob Gibson, Christy Mathewson and Steve Carlton

I went with Carleton as my second lefty, but I think I may prefer Koufax, upon reflection.

Assuming that I'm laying the groundwork for a 20+ year dynasty, I've taken guys who were highly durable and still winning at 40-ish over some who might've had better short term numbers:

Cy Young, Warren Spahn (military service robbed him of 400 wins), Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, and Nolan Ryan (222 career complete games) as my 5th starter and occasional chucker of no-hitters.

This is my favourite baseball card of all time:  http://1952toppsbaseballcards.com/Satchel%20Paige.htm

Lefty Grove, Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez, Bob Gibson, Greg Maddux.

Just FYI, I am keeping track and through 10 ballots, no less than 16 different pitchers have been named, with 12 of those receiving multiple nominations/votes ...  only four pitchers have at least 5 votes, and three of those are active (Clemens 7,  Martinez and Unit 5 each -- Koufax has 6) ...

No votes yet for Doyle Alexaxander?

I wasn't even considering Pedro at first then I actually took a look at his numbers and WOW! He replaces Carlton in mine

New 5 in order

Clemens - R
Maddux - R
R. Johnson - L
Seaver - R
Pedro - R

If you can have them at their peak value, I'd take Koufax, Grove, Maddux. R. Johnson and P. Martinez.  I don't mind 3 lefties.

For total career value, I'd go with Grove, W. Johnson, Mathewson, Clemens, Maddux. 

 

I'll go with Clemens, Koufax, Gibson, Pedro and Babe Ruth.  Ruth can DH on the days he's not pitching.

Hmmm... always a tough one.

Roger Clemens is a must as is Walter Johnson. Both guys who would pitch if their arm was hanging by a thread. Both were great almost non-stop from day one to the end.

Addie Joss is tempting as he was a killer while around. He played just 9 seasons but was put into the HOF anyways. Checking his B-R page I see an ERA+ of 114 - for his worst season. 142 lifetime. Neutralized ERA of 2.29.

Pedro Martinez was amazing at his peak and had had just one season below 117 in ERA+ 2.54 neutralized ERA. Thought at first he'd push the weak pen but he did once reach double digits in complete games (his last year in Montreal)

5th slot is tough. Would love to put Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, or Dave Stieb on the team but just can't. Randy Johnson and Sandy Koufax are both tempting. But I think I'll go for one of my other all-time favourites - Mordecai (Three Finger) Brown. 2.36 neutralized ERA and one ugly hand.

Roger Clemens

Walter Johnson

Randy Johnson

Warren Spahn

Bob Gibson

Peak value only?

Cheating and looking at B-R I immediately hit one of my old favorites from when I used to read Baseball Encyclopedias cover to cover (geez did I need a girlfriend).

Tim Keefe - as a 23 year old rookie - 12 starts, all completed, ERA of 0.86 for an ERA+ of 294. Different game back in 1880. Just 105 IP but just 83 games were played that season. Pitchers were still throwing underhand and, iirc, had to throw it where the batter told them (high or low). He did it for the Troy Trojans.

Pedro Martinez is #2 all times for his 2000 season where he went 18-6 over 29 starts (7 complete) with a 1.74 ERA and a 285 ERA+. 284 K, 32 BB in 217 IP. Delgado got more MVP votes as did 4 others. Go figure.

Dutch Leonard at 22 in 1914 had an ERA+ of 279 thanks to his real ERA of 0.96 for the Red Sox (hrm, 2 of the top 3 are Red Sox). Babe Ruth was a rookie on that team.

Greg Maddux at 28 in 1994. Sigh. What a loss. 273 ERA+ on a 1.56 ERA. 5th for MVP (ala Pedro above).

A tie for 5th, but given we already have Maddux (he did this in 1995 - amazing 2 year stretch) we'll go with Walter Johnson 1913 with an ERA+ of 259 (following a 240 season). 36-7 W-L record, 1.14 ERA, 38 BB vs 243 K in 346 IP plus he had 2 saves and 11 shutouts.

Bob Gibson's 1968 was next, then 3-Finger Brown, another Pedro season, and Walter's 1912 season. Clemens best year here comes in 12th while Clemens 2005 season (age 42) is 16th (tied with another Pedro season). You have to go to #43 to find another 40 year old (Cy Young) and that is it for 40+ guys on the top 100. Dwight Gooden is the youngest in the top 100 at 20 years old in 1985 (226 - tied with Clemens' age 42 season) along with Silver King in 1888 (199 ERA+). King had an amazing 4 year stretch then fell apart at 23 in 1891. Of course those 585 2/3 IP in his 1888 season might have had something to do with it.

Sigh. What a loss.

???

Mick - by the loss I mean the wasted last 1/3rd of 1994 and first portion of 1995. Who knows what Maddux would've done given two full seasons? Hard to rank those two years as among the best when they were strike years. Same with any great 1981 stuff (although for Jay fans the shortened 1981 was a blessing - that team was full of John McDonald's & Zambrano's).

I assume the "what a loss" is in regards to losing the end of that season. Maddux had all all-time pitching season going, not to mention Bagwell, Thomas, Belle, Griffey and Williams and others having incredible offensive years. The strike also cost McGriff his 500 homers, and of course the chance for the Blue Jays to close 40-7, edge out the Yanks, and become 3-time champs by beating the Expos in 7.

I'm going to assume this isn't "the five best individual seasons I want to insert into my rotation," but "the five best pitchers over their whole careers."

Accordingly and alphabetically: Roger Clemens, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez

I find it almost impossible to decide between Maddux and Randy Johnson, so I went with the guy I liked better. I would've liked to find a way to get Satchel Paige into this discussion, but based on the available records, he's nowhere near the class of these guys.

If I need to choose an ace among this staff, it's Pedro.

Clemens, Grove, Walter Johnson and Pedro are definites.  Maddux, Randy Johnson and Koufax would be contenders for the fifth slot.  I'd choose Koufax as the fifth starter, and figure that he might give me some nice high leverage innings in relief in April and September.

This is a tricky one. I want at least 2 lefties and I want there to be some variation between the pitchers. Assuming that we are facing an ALL-STAR lineup, I just can't see throwing fireballers after fireballers after each other. You assume that they are going to get used to the heat and then what.

Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Steve Carlton

is my staff 1-5. Heat from Clemens, Carlton and Johnson, Maddux is maybe the greatest control pitcher I ever saw and Pedro is just Pedro.

I don't know who I would pity most, though. The hitters, the catcher who has to work with this staff or the media reporting trying to get quotes from the staff.

Good question.  You'd want a good mix of lefties and righties, and some variation in their stuff (pure power pitchers vs. control pitchers with longer stamina).

My rotation would be:
1. Roger Clemens
2. Walter Johnson
3. Greg Maddux
4. Sandy Koufax
5. Satchel Paige (pitched 59 games of 119 ERA+ ball at age 46; Roger Clemens eat your heart out).

I was debating about including Johan Santana; he's got the stuff and the numbers for it, but it's still too early in his career to be placed among these pitchers.

hmmmmm too many choices but

1. P. Martinez

2. L. Grove

3. C. Mathewson

4. R. Johnson

5. J. Marichal

After much hemming and hawing...

Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, and Roger Clemens are automatic. And then...

Tom Seaver and Greg Maddux.

My reservation about Pedro and Koufax is, obviously, on the career value side. At his peak, Pedro may have been the greatest ever. And Koufax absolutely dominated his league, at a time when people like Gibson and Marichal and Maloney and even the ancient Spahn were having tremendous seasons of their own.

But Pedro's run as a great, great pitcher covers just seven years (1997-2003), and in only four of them did he even make as many as 30 starts. And for Koufax, it's even shorter - the five years from 1962-66, two of which were shortened by injury.

Gotta quibble about something, I guess.

Hmmm...

Pedro, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Lefty Grove and The Big Train

I'm going to answer this with entertainment in mind, and as a homer...

Roy Halladay, David Cone, Dave Stieb, Chris Carpenter (just the last few years obviously), Roger Clemens (his triple crown Jay years), and as the closer:  Jose Canseco.

Pedro Martinez, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Christy Mathewson (with apologies to Tom Seaver et al.).

Won't reveal the "results" yet, but I find it interesting that the top four vote-getters are all active pitchers while 14 of the 24 who have received at least one vote have pitched in my lifetime ... the human memory is indeed powerful!

Among those not receiving a single vote yet are Grover Cleveland Alexander, he of the 373 wins, and Nolan Ryan, he of the 5,714 strikeouts. It's not all about the active and recently-retired, either -- Sutton, Perry and Glavine are among 300-game winners (in the latter's case "eventually") not to have any support ... yet!

Hm. Alexander, Glavine, Ryan, Perry and Sutton. That'd do as a five-man rotation!

 

 

Here's my favourite starting five...maybe not the best of all-time but my favourites of all-time:

Sandy Kofax
Dave Stieb
Pedro Martinez
Don Drysdal
Fernando Valenzuela

I find it interesting that the top four vote-getters are all active pitchers while 14 of the 24 who have received at least one vote have pitched in my lifetime ... the human memory is indeed powerful!

It's not only that, Mick ... In Roger Clemens, we're seeing a guy who would have dominated any era -- 15 seasons with an ERA greater than 130, 7 seasons with a 175+ adjusted ERA -- a man for whom you can reasonably construct a case as the best pitcher ever. In Pedro Martinez, we're seeing a guy who has posted three of the top 20 ERA+ seasons of all time (2nd, 9th and T16th) and who leads career ERA+ by 12 points (comparably, Babe Ruth leads career OPS+ by 17 points), although I do cede ground to Magpie's IP concerns. Greg Maddux holds down the 4th and T5th spot on that ERA+ list and has thrown more innings than all but 20 pitchers. These would be giants of the game no matter when they played.

I'm also inclined to discount the achievements of any pitcher who never had to face black or Latino hitters. Grove and Johnson would have collected Cy Young Awards galore even had they pitched to the likes of Henry Aaron, Barry Bonds and Manny Ramirez, but I'm not necessarily prepared to say that about, say, a Christy Mathewson or a Pete Alexander -- or, for that matter, a Cy Young.

Among those not receiving a single vote yet are Grover Cleveland Alexander, he of the 373 wins, and Nolan Ryan, he of the 5,714 strikeouts.

Small correction, I count two votes for Ryan, actually.

Small correction, I count two votes for Ryan, actually.

Yes, you're right, and he's on the overall tally list, I just missed his name.

Jordan, I cede your argument but think Pete Alexander, for instance, would have been just as successful, overall, in integrated ball -- greats will be great regardless. Or are we willing to say that, on the flip side, Satchel Paige never had (okay never was allowed) to face white hitters and so his achievements should be discounted as well. Actually, maybe so!

Clemens (1997), Pedro (1999/2000), Kofax (1966), Bob Gibson (1968) and either Ruth (1916, if there is no DH) or Roy Halladay (2005 if there is a DH rule and since I have a time machine, I move him out of the way of line drives).

Satchel Paige never had (okay never was allowed) to face white hitters and so his achievements should be discounted as well. Actually, maybe so!

I would say yes -- recognizing of course the vast injustice perpetrated on Paige, Bell, Gibson and other NLers, but at the end of the day, you have to go by the available record. Paige played in a diluted league, especially as compared to today's MLB. He's a wonderful couldabeen story, but for the purposes of this discussion, that's all he can be.

Or are we willing to say that, on the flip side, Satchel Paige never had (okay never was allowed) to face white hitters and so his achievements should be discounted as well. Actually, maybe so!

Satch faced the best white hitters of his day quite a bit.   Just not in official league contests.

Without thinking about it too much, I'd pick Maddux, Clemens, Koufax, Gibson, and Iron Man Joe McGinnity.

Paige played in a diluted league, especially as compared to today's MLB.

Maybe, but imagine the quality of baseball talent available today if 90% of the good black athletes in America competed to land a spot on one of about six top teams.  It does make you think.  As Bill James points out, the Negro Leagues came out of WW2 a crippled hulk (talent-wise) compared to where they were prior to and in the early stages of the war.  And yet, in six years between 1946 and 1952 they produced Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson, Don Newcombe, Larry Doby... the list goes on and on.

The biggest issue with Paige, ironically enough, is how little league ball he played in the Negro Leagues...