Might as well give this nugget a thread of its own ...
B.J. Ryan Has Tommy John Surgery
So ... erm, uhm, let's change the subject ... what's up in your life?
It sure seems like a bad decision to let him pitch at all this season. I wonder if throwing in April aggravated a more minor injury.
I am looking forward to all of the hindsight saying JP shouldn't have signed him because he was guaranteed to get injured. It was a great signing. Bad things happen. Until I hear that the Jays mishandled him and caused the injury themselves, I think that this was just one of those things. Devastating.
What does the Jays insurance policy look like for BJ Ryan? How long does it take to kick in and will they be getting any money back?
Does anyone know? Did the injury occur during last season, off season or spring training?
I am looking forward to all of the hindsight saying JP shouldn't have signed him because he was guaranteed to get injured.
There were people who thought that Ryan's delivery made him a bad candidate for long-term health.
There were people who thought that Ryan's delivery made him a bad candidate for long-term health.
I am looking forward to all of the hindsight saying JP shouldn't have signed him because he was guaranteed to get injured. It was a great signing. Bad things happen.
Between the Burnett signing and the Ryan signing, I was much more worried about the Ryan signing. I didn't expect TJ surgery, but I certainly didn't expect BJ to be closing games by the end of the contract. The Lidge's of the world seem a lot more commonplace than the Rivera's.
Burnett's lowside seemed like a sightly better than league average starter averaging 25 starts per year over the course of the contract. Ryan's lowside was LOOGY.
It sure seems like a bad decision to let him pitch at all this season.
I wonder if throwing in April aggravated a more minor injury.
I suspect it was inevitable once he was hurt in spring training.
I suspect it was inevitable once he was hurt in spring training.
There were people who thought that Ryan's delivery made him a bad candidate for long-term health.
Just about *any* pitcher is a bad candidate for long term health.
It's the first time on the DL in 9 years for Ryan. If you're going to bet on someone that's probably it.
Just about *any* pitcher is a bad candidate for long term health.
It's the first time on the DL in 9 years for Ryan. If you're going to bet on someone that's probably it.
Jeff Blair also points out in the article that Zambrano has been put on the 15 day DL and that Marcum is taking his spot.
How often does it happen that a guy is never on the DL and then all of a sudden needs TJ? I still really like the signing, this just really sucks.
Zambrano's on the 15-day DL (duh) with a right forearm strain. Marcum gets his start, Vermilyea up from the 'Cuse.
I suspect it was inevitable once he was hurt in spring training
But then why not have the surgery then? He would have been back for early 2008, rather than mid-season.
Why didn't they put him on the DL right away? Because tickets needed to be sold, and lying to the public is the easy way to do that.
When can we realistically expect Ryan to return at full strength? I imagine relievers can recover faster than starters because they don't have to go 7+ innings, but can we actually expect to see him closing games for Toronto before June or July of 2008?
I'm going to join the chorus of those who would like to see Glaus moved to start retooling for 2008. I'd keep Thomas so Lind can play LF with Johnson really stengthening the bench, but if Glaus could bring in a major league ready 3B or SS and some pitching I'd be happy. The injury risk is too great with Glaus and I'd rather have an average 3B and average SS than a below average SS and above average but oft injured 3B.
Why didn't they put him on the DL right away? Because tickets needed to be sold, and lying to the public is the easy way to do that.
Wow - now that is cynicism. The bar has been raised, folks.
timp, LA seems to be looking for a major league 3B, and they've got a log jam at shortstop. Betemit is can't put up the numbers expected of a 3B, but he can do a solid job at shortstop, and in fact would be exactly what the Jays needed with very favorable splits vs. RHP, considering 95% of the leagues SSs bat right handed, it shouldn't be hard to find a platoon partner for him. In fact, we have two right now.
Betemit + prospects might be something they would consider, and something the Jays should too.
Betemit + prospects might be something they would consider, and something the Jays should too.
Wow, I was in the camp of those who were going to let JP's little fib
go, but this is very disconcerting. I can see running a
disposable Zambrano out there until he explodes; it shouldn't need to
be said that greater care should be taken with your $47 million
closer. So now we definitely focus on retooling, the fog of war
has lifted.
And there still is Frank Thomas' run at 500 HR, which is going to be exciting to watch.
And there still is Frank Thomas' run at 500 HR, which is going to be exciting to watch.
What's up with my life, Mick? Enjoying the NBA playoffs (oh, forgot, you're living in the Dallas area, sorry).
As we all embrace the Season From Hell Part Deux. Ah, the memories:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=2004&t=TOR
Note to JP: Listen to your only healthy star pitcher. Play the young guys. Trade the tradeable old guys. And keep kissing up to Godfrey if you want to keep your job. (Oh wait, the last point is a given).
After I write this I'm gonna go throw up...
Now the FUN begins!
The NEW IMPROVED starting rotation is: Halladay, Burnett, Janssen, McGowan, Marcum. I'm actually looking forward to watching them pitch.
The NEW IMPROVED bullpen is: Accardo, Frasor, Downs, Towers, Tallet, Verimlyea, Ohka. If the starters don't go 9 innings I can always fall back on 18 year old single malt. Actually, this is not a terrible bullpen.
Overall, this is what we're gonna have, lets give them a chance to rescue the season. If not...don't the TiCats start their pre-season camp in mid-June?
PS: Good news! JP just told me "No way, absolutely no way, does Halladay need TJ surgery." Now I feel better...yikes...sigh.
I just feel really, really badly for Halladay - he's hitched his wagon to a real loser
This statement shows more disrespect to the man Roy Halladay is, than to the Blue Jays.
The team won't be able to contend without Ryan or another closer. Very good Blue Jay teams have been unable to make the playoffs because of the lack of a premium closer. JP is going to have to do something to get us a closer.
So, I imagine we probably don't see Ryan until what, September of 2008? This is very depressing. The Season From Hell v.2.0
This statement shows more disrespect to the man Roy Halladay is, than to the Blue Jays.
The team won't be able to contend without Ryan or another closer. Very good Blue Jay teams have been unable to make the playoffs because of the lack of a premium closer. JP is going to have to do something to get us a closer.
So, I imagine we probably don't see Ryan until what, September of 2008? This is very depressing. The Season From Hell v.2.0
I can't help but cynically think : Maybe this is why they've been saying they needed to not use Ryan in the 8th inning...they've known a problem was there, and wanted him to try and pitch through it and not make it worse.
2 seasons from hell in 4 years? 1 is a fluke, 2 is a trend, 3 is a pattern right? Well, we're at Trend now.
2 seasons from hell in 4 years? 1 is a fluke, 2 is a trend, 3 is a pattern right? Well, we're at Trend now.
I grant that at the moment the team is playing crappy, to use a scientific term, but what exactly makes this the Season From Hell Redux? Losing Ryan hurts, to be sure, but he's the only guy who's been lost for the year, if Ricciardi is being honest with us about Johnson and Zaun. League may never pitch in the big leagues again, but given that his only contributions came late in the year last year, and he's done this walk in the wilderness routine before, really counting on him to deliver was the height of presumption.
The reason that this start to the season has been hellish is that the roster construction in the off-season, the use of the roster to date, and the failure of the general manager to add reinforcements in-season has been deficient to the point of negligence. To call this another Season From Hell is merely to make excuses for management.
Four Seamer, I don't see anyone letting JP off the hook. However, besides Ryan, losing your starting catcher for 2+ months, leadoff hitter and starting RF for 2+ months, and 3rd starter for probably 1 month, is pretty nasty.
Wow - now that is cynicism. The bar has been raised, folks.
You say cynicism, I stand by what I said. Give me some other reason for "B.J. Ryan is out with a bad back" in March, and then "B.J. Ryan had Tommy John surgery" today.
I think there are alot of forces at work here. It seems to me the Ryan thing is more Gibby's fault than anything. He sure did use and abuse him last year. I think several people commented on that during last season.
Nice throw Aaron. Man, I can't remember the really crappy teams of the late 70's looking this bad. I think this is getting close to an all time abyss.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Roy is 100% physically. Wouldn't that be the icing on the cake. At that point the Jays would become basic equals of the Royals and Nationals.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Roy is 100% physically. Wouldn't that be the icing on the cake. At that point the Jays would become basic equals of the Royals and Nationals.
It seems to me the Ryan thing is more Gibby's fault than anything. He sure did use and abuse him last year.
I'm not a big Gibby fan, but I don't buy this argument at all. Ryan pitched in 65 games last season, his lowest total in 5 years. He pitched in 72.1 innings, exactly 2 more than the previous season and 15 less than the season before... and he faced significantly fewer batters last season, due to a WHIP of 0.86. The "abuse" comments likely stem from Gibby using Ryan for more than one inning on several occassions (21 to be exact), but this isn't anything new for B.J. -- he pitched more than one inning 12 times in 2004 and 30 times in 2003.
I understand that people are looking for a scapegoat for Ryan's injury, but it seems to me that the most likely reason is also the most obvious -- he throws hard pitches (fastballs and sliders) with a delivery that puts strain on the arm... and nine years of previously injury-free pro ball finally caught up to him.
But I guess that's not as fun as playing the blame game....
In related news, I think this Red Sox team has the potential to be one of the top 5 teams of the last 20 years. I think they are that good.
I wouldn't worry about Halladay. A couple of the hits found holes, an error, the Youki at bat could have gone either way, and the Lowell homerun was a good pitch he just golfed. ##it happens, and it's happening in spades, because this is really becoming a season from hell.
MyLegacy, got any more of that liquor?
Four Seamer, I don't see anyone letting JP off the hook. However, besides Ryan, losing your starting catcher for 2+ months, leadoff hitter and starting RF for 2+ months, and 3rd starter for probably 1 month, is pretty nasty.
Zaun wasn't doing anything at the plate, Chacin's missed one start to date, and Johnson's injury, though the most harmful of the three, has been the one the team was best placed to absorb. Injuries have slowed the team down, no question, and it's certainly fair to adjust expectations in light of them, but they don't explain why this team is 13-20, and playing absolutely listless baseball. Quality clubs absorb these sorts of blows, rather than being capsized by them.
The good news is the Jays are "on pace" to get the 3rd overall pick in the 2008 draft!
The Sox fans over at SOSH pegging Halladay as looking "uncomfortable" as early as the first inning.
Mulliniks seems to think he's tipping his pitches.
Seriously, Doc has had worst-start-of-his-career type outings twice in a week now. Bad luck? A little funk? Injury? This just doesn't happen to Roy. Couple that with the way this season has gone and I just assume he's injured.
Does anyone else find the Ryan jersey hanging in the dugout a bit odd? He didn't die; only the season did.
Ugh.
Is Halladay injured too? These last two starts have been so strange for him. And writers seem to keep mentioning concern about his decreased velocity.
Great.
I really hope Ryan can at least recover and be ready for next season - maybe at least the team could get a LITTLE luck.
Man, this is becoming really epic.
Is Halladay injured too? These last two starts have been so strange for him. And writers seem to keep mentioning concern about his decreased velocity.
Great.
I really hope Ryan can at least recover and be ready for next season - maybe at least the team could get a LITTLE luck.
Man, this is becoming really epic.
I hate to be "that guy" who suggests this... But this team cannot win with this roster, and I think we all know who's fault that is. What I'm getting to is, the team should strongly reconsider rebuilding. Just a suggestion, I cannot stand this team and its new love for mediocrity.
Grasping for some good news on a depressing night......
Jesse Litsch's line on the night:
7IP 0H 0R 1BB 9K
Not sure why he was pulled after 7, I am assuming pitch count but considering the state of luck for everything BlueJay, his arm might hve fallen off in the dugout while taking a drink of Gatorade...
The first caller to Wilner tonight said it perfectly. I am equally disgusted with the whole Ryan thing, and Wilner didn't disagree.
I wouldn't trade halladay and wells, but glaus seems to be a good idea (dependening on what we get back) because he is an injury risk and is currently on a hot streak (that goes to waste since this season is over). It would be great if we can trade towers and ohka -- they are here for only one year, and even better if thomas is traded, as his salary and the prospects we get in return can be used next year.
Tonight was one of the worst efforts I've seen from the jays. Glaus getting picked at first with the bases loaded (IN THE FIRST INNING) was probably the most boneheaded play this year.
Tonight was one of the worst efforts I've seen from the jays. Glaus getting picked at first with the bases loaded (IN THE FIRST INNING) was probably the most boneheaded play this year.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. There's no point in descending into rebuilding mode until we have a GM in place that we can trust to do the job properly. Given his recent track record with these kinds of trades, JP's likely to move a few of these sunk costs for third grade prospects while still eating a chunk of salary going forward.
That was a little snide, but if the organization does decide to cut its losses, it needs also to cut ties with the architect of this disappointment. The criticism levelled at Gord Ash, and it was a fair one, was that he never seemed to have any sort of long-term plan, but was constantly changing tacks. Richard Griffin likes to say that JP is now on year six of his five year plan, but that sort of misses the point - it's been impossible to discern for some time now what the actual plan is. He gets a little payroll flexibility, which he's all too happy lavish on star players, and then he stocks the bench and bullpen with AAA stalwarts.
Anyway, if the Ted Rogers still has confidence in Godfrey and Ricciardi, then they need to stay the course, maybe making a minor course correction or too but hope things turn around next year (trading Thomas, if possible, would probably be a good idea because he could net a decent return, be replaced internally for the balance of the season and would allow the Jays to move Glaus to DH, which is where his long-term future lies). If, on the other hand, he's had his fill of them both, he should put somebody with a long-term investment in the team in that position before the disassembling begins. Putting Ricciardi in charge of that would just be madness, in my view.
What's up in my life?
Right now my two week old son. Named Aaron after Hank and not Hill.
There have been only oblique references to Halladay's health in this thread, but...it really seems as though something is up with him (admittedly, I didn't watch tonight's game; I'm relying on the boxscore). He is far too good when healthy to get hit this hard in consecutive starts. I'm guessing that we get an injury report on him fairly soon.
If Roy is seriously injured, then the franchise has basically unravelled. This team cannot get to the playoffs in the next five years without (and possibly even with) a healthy Halladay. Which in itself is a bad sign. Neither the Red Sox or Yankees even remotely depend on one pitcher to this extent.
I honestly think Ricciardi's time in Toronto is done (or should be). In myriad ways, he has clearly demonstrated that he is not up to the job.
Finally, Gibbons may get fired, but if he does it will be cold comfort to Jays fans. The problem is systemic. Replacing the manager is basically deck chair shuffling.
If Roy is seriously injured, then the franchise has basically unravelled. This team cannot get to the playoffs in the next five years without (and possibly even with) a healthy Halladay. Which in itself is a bad sign. Neither the Red Sox or Yankees even remotely depend on one pitcher to this extent.
I honestly think Ricciardi's time in Toronto is done (or should be). In myriad ways, he has clearly demonstrated that he is not up to the job.
Finally, Gibbons may get fired, but if he does it will be cold comfort to Jays fans. The problem is systemic. Replacing the manager is basically deck chair shuffling.
Congratulations, Barry (and family)!
Four Seamer, "listless" is the correct word and I had used it myself when describing this game. But it's been a listless season.
Want numbers? The Jays' latest in-game comeback all season came in the sixth inning, when they rallied from a one-run deficit at Fenway. They are 0-fer when trailing after six, or at any point thereafter. They have 1 win when trailing after five, 2 wins when trailing after four and only four wins when trailing after two innings or later.
They are 6-21 in games in which they trailed at any point, by any margin. I don't know what the opposite of Fighting Jays is, but we're watching it.
Four Seamer, "listless" is the correct word and I had used it myself when describing this game. But it's been a listless season.
Want numbers? The Jays' latest in-game comeback all season came in the sixth inning, when they rallied from a one-run deficit at Fenway. They are 0-fer when trailing after six, or at any point thereafter. They have 1 win when trailing after five, 2 wins when trailing after four and only four wins when trailing after two innings or later.
They are 6-21 in games in which they trailed at any point, by any margin. I don't know what the opposite of Fighting Jays is, but we're watching it.
Well done, Bonnell family! Finally some good news - here's hoping your son gets to see a Jays victory at some point.
Both pretty apt, guys. And it's why I think that Gibbons probably has to go. The team has been out-managed, meek, or both late in games. I think there's enough to complain about separate and apart from Greenfrog's "systemic" analysis to replace the manager. Just because the general manager has performed poorly does not mean that the manager hasn't also failed.
I saw a comedian in New York about a month ago who told the following joke: "Let me say this to tourists out there on behalf of all New Yorkers: Just because we're jerks doesn't mean you're not annoying." It's a similar principle.
Managers' performance gets better and worse, just like players'. Managers also get tuned out from time to time. It happens. And it's time for a change.
I saw a comedian in New York about a month ago who told the following joke: "Let me say this to tourists out there on behalf of all New Yorkers: Just because we're jerks doesn't mean you're not annoying." It's a similar principle.
Managers' performance gets better and worse, just like players'. Managers also get tuned out from time to time. It happens. And it's time for a change.
Obviously, there's a lot of negative emotionduring a losing streak. That's a good reason not to make any firings/trades. I'd wait until a few games after the streak is over before assessing the situation.
Mike D, I agree that Gibbons is being outmanaged and probably needs to go. I just don't want to see him take the fall for the front office, which I think represents a much more fundamental problem. I also think the organization, which is getting a lot of bad press and whose star is falling fast, may have trouble attracting top managerial talent at the moment.
I'd like to see Rogers get tough and fire Ricciardi and Godfrey (if it has to be after the season, so be it). Then set about recruiting a new GM, followed by a new manager. (The Dombrowski/Leyland model might be a good place to start.) If the team needs to fire Gibbons in the meantime, fine. But they're probably looking at an interim manager for the rest of 2007.
I'd like to see Rogers get tough and fire Ricciardi and Godfrey (if it has to be after the season, so be it). Then set about recruiting a new GM, followed by a new manager. (The Dombrowski/Leyland model might be a good place to start.) If the team needs to fire Gibbons in the meantime, fine. But they're probably looking at an interim manager for the rest of 2007.
Okay, so is Doc injured or maybe tipping? Mike Lowell's homerun was just stupid. It wasn't even bad pitch! It kind of seemed that way when they played Texas. Are they stealing signs? Something is askew!
I think trading players is the wrong move. There is a solid foundation that needs to be built on.
Save us AJ!
Depressing but... there is still no chance of this team having the same record after 36 games as it did in '89 when it won 89 and the AL East (more wins than we've seen here since 93). That year they started 12-24.
Yes, I am going to drag that out here every time the Jays start off horribly.
Now, would I bet on them being winners this year? No, odds are against it.
Still, Ryan being hurt could just mean we see someone else become a solid closer (Accardo is my bet). Zambrano and Ohka stinking up the joint (along with Gibbons dislike of Towers) could mean we get Janssen and Marcum becoming solid #2/3 starters. Johnson being hurt could mean Lind gets the shot at being all we hope he can be.
In 1998 things looked very dark (Canseco/Green/Phillips in the outfield was scary) but it led to Cruz Jr getting regular playing time (when he was looking good), Shannon Stewart & Shawn Green getting to play everyday for the first time, Carpenter & Escobar getting to start along with a September shot for a very young Roy Halladay. Sadly the potential was blown by a GM who panicked and dumped his manager at the worst time (mid-spring training), dumped his superstar starting pitcher for David Wells and spare parts, couldn't make up his mind if Escobar was a starter, closer, or minor leaguer, traded Woody Williams for Joey Hamilton (UGH), etc.
So, if JP can just avoid the dumb panic moves that Ash did we'll be fine. Get the kids in there, dump some vets for prospects but only if you are ready to fill their slots quickly (be very, very careful about trading Glaus in other words).
Who to dump? Anyone over 32 should be considered as they will almost certainly be worse in 2008 than 2007 but are established enough to make a GM on the edge of the playoffs happy with the predictability of the player.
Candidates:
Greg Zaun - someone might be interested if he comes back strong
Royce Clayton - had a good defensive rep, would be good in a backup role
Frank Thomas - solid bat, could still be at 1B for a desperate team
Matt Stairs - for a desperate team...oops, we have him
Sal Fasano - don't see anyone chasing him down
John McDonald - 32 but is the only other one who is 31 or more, useful spare part but doubt anyone would give up more than a C prospect for him
No pitcher is over 31 this year, so 31 year olds...
Scott Downs - solid middle reliever, anyone out there have a Jeff Bagwell type prospect to dump? :)
Tomo Ohka - we can dream
Zambrano - if a GM has gone brain dead
Ryan - see Zambrano
Towers - 30 years old, someone might be interested
Halladay & AJ are the only other 30 year olds, Frasor and Tallet are 29
30 year old hitters are Overbay (signed long term), Glaus (expensive and no one here to replace him), Phillips (see Fasano), Reed Johnson (could have value, can be replaced).
So, the only guys I'd see the Jays being willing to trade and could get more than junk for are Downs, Johnson, Clayton, Thomas, and maybe Zaun. That would lead to opportunity for...uh...well...maybe some pitchers and Thigpen (271/350/443) behind the plate. Santos could get a shot at SS but is now hitting 267/316/638 which suggests big holes in the swing that major leaguers would take full advantage of. JF Griffin (255/355/490) and Wayne Lydon (294/351/412) could get DH shots if Thomas is sent away.
Guess the starters getting a shot is all we can hope for unless the Jays trade for top hitting prospects using the few pieces available to them.
Yes, I am going to drag that out here every time the Jays start off horribly.
Now, would I bet on them being winners this year? No, odds are against it.
Still, Ryan being hurt could just mean we see someone else become a solid closer (Accardo is my bet). Zambrano and Ohka stinking up the joint (along with Gibbons dislike of Towers) could mean we get Janssen and Marcum becoming solid #2/3 starters. Johnson being hurt could mean Lind gets the shot at being all we hope he can be.
In 1998 things looked very dark (Canseco/Green/Phillips in the outfield was scary) but it led to Cruz Jr getting regular playing time (when he was looking good), Shannon Stewart & Shawn Green getting to play everyday for the first time, Carpenter & Escobar getting to start along with a September shot for a very young Roy Halladay. Sadly the potential was blown by a GM who panicked and dumped his manager at the worst time (mid-spring training), dumped his superstar starting pitcher for David Wells and spare parts, couldn't make up his mind if Escobar was a starter, closer, or minor leaguer, traded Woody Williams for Joey Hamilton (UGH), etc.
So, if JP can just avoid the dumb panic moves that Ash did we'll be fine. Get the kids in there, dump some vets for prospects but only if you are ready to fill their slots quickly (be very, very careful about trading Glaus in other words).
Who to dump? Anyone over 32 should be considered as they will almost certainly be worse in 2008 than 2007 but are established enough to make a GM on the edge of the playoffs happy with the predictability of the player.
Candidates:
Greg Zaun - someone might be interested if he comes back strong
Royce Clayton - had a good defensive rep, would be good in a backup role
Frank Thomas - solid bat, could still be at 1B for a desperate team
Matt Stairs - for a desperate team...oops, we have him
Sal Fasano - don't see anyone chasing him down
John McDonald - 32 but is the only other one who is 31 or more, useful spare part but doubt anyone would give up more than a C prospect for him
No pitcher is over 31 this year, so 31 year olds...
Scott Downs - solid middle reliever, anyone out there have a Jeff Bagwell type prospect to dump? :)
Tomo Ohka - we can dream
Zambrano - if a GM has gone brain dead
Ryan - see Zambrano
Towers - 30 years old, someone might be interested
Halladay & AJ are the only other 30 year olds, Frasor and Tallet are 29
30 year old hitters are Overbay (signed long term), Glaus (expensive and no one here to replace him), Phillips (see Fasano), Reed Johnson (could have value, can be replaced).
So, the only guys I'd see the Jays being willing to trade and could get more than junk for are Downs, Johnson, Clayton, Thomas, and maybe Zaun. That would lead to opportunity for...uh...well...maybe some pitchers and Thigpen (271/350/443) behind the plate. Santos could get a shot at SS but is now hitting 267/316/638 which suggests big holes in the swing that major leaguers would take full advantage of. JF Griffin (255/355/490) and Wayne Lydon (294/351/412) could get DH shots if Thomas is sent away.
Guess the starters getting a shot is all we can hope for unless the Jays trade for top hitting prospects using the few pieces available to them.
Congrats Barry!
I think a few things have become clear in the last 24 hours.
1) JP Ricciardi is an arrogant, foolish businessman who disrespects his customers.
2) He doesn't have a plan anymore
3) This team is not a winner, and will not be a winner under him
IMO it doesn't matter if the team loses every game from here on out or not. For what its worth, I have generally stood by the man and have given him the benefit of the doubt in the past. The callers on the post game tonight were bang on. You just can't lie to fans.
The bottom line here is that rightly or wrongly, the is a perception that we are not a classy, professional organization. The Gibbons issues from last year (which I personally think are unrelated) along with this deception and disrespect have tarnished the franchise.
I, along with many other fans are frustrated about the losing skid, but at the end of the day, we all know that these things happen. The problem is that the franchise has been tarnished and it is time for a change. The worst thing a club can do is settle for mediocrity while deceiving their fans. That is why we MUST rebuild. I suggest that:
1)JP is fired tomorrow morning. Like McCown said, he has had many opportunities to clear the air in regards to this mess and has failed to do so. Couple that with the fact that we have won nothing under him.
2) Begin the search for someone new. I know it is easy to say this, and not easy to do, but if Rogers is still business savvy, he will pull the trigger and do what is right.
3) Give the new GM the reigns. He should decide whether Gibby is his man or not. He can bring in his own scouts.
Rebuilding is painful, but if you want to do it, go all out. (See Colangelo and the Raptors)
I'm sure we could get a few solid prospects for a guy like AJ Burnett. There simply aren't a few things that can be fixed here. This IS a train wreck. Young players should be getting playing time and prospects should be stockpiled. Ohka and Zambrano are NOT the answer.
I think a few things have become clear in the last 24 hours.
1) JP Ricciardi is an arrogant, foolish businessman who disrespects his customers.
2) He doesn't have a plan anymore
3) This team is not a winner, and will not be a winner under him
IMO it doesn't matter if the team loses every game from here on out or not. For what its worth, I have generally stood by the man and have given him the benefit of the doubt in the past. The callers on the post game tonight were bang on. You just can't lie to fans.
The bottom line here is that rightly or wrongly, the is a perception that we are not a classy, professional organization. The Gibbons issues from last year (which I personally think are unrelated) along with this deception and disrespect have tarnished the franchise.
I, along with many other fans are frustrated about the losing skid, but at the end of the day, we all know that these things happen. The problem is that the franchise has been tarnished and it is time for a change. The worst thing a club can do is settle for mediocrity while deceiving their fans. That is why we MUST rebuild. I suggest that:
1)JP is fired tomorrow morning. Like McCown said, he has had many opportunities to clear the air in regards to this mess and has failed to do so. Couple that with the fact that we have won nothing under him.
2) Begin the search for someone new. I know it is easy to say this, and not easy to do, but if Rogers is still business savvy, he will pull the trigger and do what is right.
3) Give the new GM the reigns. He should decide whether Gibby is his man or not. He can bring in his own scouts.
Rebuilding is painful, but if you want to do it, go all out. (See Colangelo and the Raptors)
I'm sure we could get a few solid prospects for a guy like AJ Burnett. There simply aren't a few things that can be fixed here. This IS a train wreck. Young players should be getting playing time and prospects should be stockpiled. Ohka and Zambrano are NOT the answer.
First: Congrats Barry...your son, is he a righty or lefty?...Can he throw a slider?...if so...I know where he's needed.
Second: Some nasty vibes being expressed about JP. Is Roy...is Roy...?
My journey with JP.
When he was hired I liked the guy. Anybody that could have his nose come into the room 10 minutes before he did had to have a nose for the business. My first real negative (still sticks in my craw) was his response to the O'Dog's youthful "pimp" indiscretion. The irony of it was...O'Dog thought he was complementing JP. JP over reacted, it diminished him.
I loved the 04 draft...Lind, Janssen, Purcey, Thigpen, Litsch and Jackson - spun in the Overbay deal. For me, that draft bought JP credibility. I thought that maybe I was wrong, JP was showing that maybe you could build a team without Latin players, no HS players.
Then the real problems - money and iffy judgement. JP had to cut some corners building a team. The minors didn't produce the streams, of at least journeymen players, JP (and me) had counted on. Last winter was JP's Little Big Horn...after his successes the year before (Burnett and Ryan) he KNEW he would score a major coup getting both Lilly and Meche. He knew he was going to get AT LEAST one of them. He was turned down by both... he was SO SURE... he had no Plan B - there was no Plan B to be had. Zambrano/Ohka/Thomson were desperation moves, under the circumstances, I applauded them. The kids - McGowan, Rosario, Janssen, Marcum would now have to force the issue. I was happy.
Now the contender lies bleeding on the canvas. The manager pries the teeth guard from the fallen's bloody gums. The team barely has a pulse. We are all stunned, angry, disappointed, devastated, embarrassed, and now lonely. We see months ahead with no reprieve, no lessening of the pain. Ugly. Ugly.
So we turn our gaze from the fallen, with tar, feathers and nooses we hunt the Mad Doctor that created this Frankenstein of a team. We hunt the loneliest man in town. A man now haunted, knowing his world is ending and he'll have to take everyone's bile. Now we'll find out what JP's really made of. Now we'll find out what we're really made of.
Personally, I see no honour in a lynching.
Can you ever remember such an unbelievable string of injuries to your pitching staff from 2006-2007? it's unbelievable... and I think Arnsberg deserves a great deal of blame for this injury mess, whatever he's doing is obviously not working
Looks to me that Halladay's forearm issue is back, he can't get on top of the ball - I think he'll be shut down for a couple of months
You don't understand. I could'a had class. I could'a been a contender. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am, let's face it.
Marlon Brando as Terry Malloy in "On the Waterfront"
Marlon Brando as Terry Malloy in "On the Waterfront"
Agreed Paul - I'm just waiting for the press release to come out saying that Halladay is off to the doctor's office to evaluate his left shin splints... i.e. back to back poor starts, decreasing velocity... doesn't look good.
Suitors for Glaus: Dodgers, Angels, Phillies, Padres.
Though we won't be getting Betemit from the Dodgers to play short, he doesn't have the range to do it. Best to aim for Laroche/Abreu/Billingsley.
The Philadelphia Daily News reported this morning that scouts from the Phillies, Braves, Dodgers and Orioles, among others, have been scouting recent Jays games. It was suggested that a fire sale might be imminent.
Well, I hope that if Ricciardi is thinking of shaking things up he's limiting his sale to Glaus and maybe Thomas. In my mind there is no need to dump Thomas though since Lind has showed that he can play a decent LF, and Thomas' value is at a low point right now. But with Johnson coming back and with some OF potential in the minors in Patterson, Pettway and Snider, the Jays could probably afford to move Lind ouf of LF and into a DH role in the near future.
I wouldn't like to see any of the young players go, and I don't think Ohka, Clayton, Towers, McDonald, or Zambrano will get the Jays anything. So in my mind it's Glaus, maybe Thomas. Who knows what's going on in Ricciardi's head, but I can't imagine he'd be shopping Burnett with the problems the starting rotation is having.
What's interesting is that all of the teams that might need a Glaus type thirdbaseman all happen to have excess arms and a young left side infielder to spare....2 for 1 deals should be awfully tempting for a team that lacks quality depth.
As for others, Clayton might bring something back from a team like the Padres or Diamondbacks that might want an upgrade/vet backup to their youngsters over the stretch. Likewise, Ohka might be a 5th starter in the NL. Until Johnson comes back there aren't any other redundancies on the roster, not enough quality either.
And while we're at it - bring back Hendrickson from LAD. His sub-5 era while with Tampa is looking better and better, not to mention his current success with the Dodgers.
The chances that JP will finish out his contract with the club through 2010 are extremely high. Ricciardi is Godfrey's hand-picked choice to build a winner, and his own reputation is tied to JP's fortunes. Only if Godfrey needs to protect himself will he jettison JP, and he's not the kind of guy who needs protecting. Don't underestimate how powerful a figure he is, within both the organization and the city itself.
The chances that Gibbons will be fired are also pretty high; even if the team's problems aren't all his fault, a disappointment of this calibre requires a sacrifice, and I doubt that Brad Arnsberg would be a sufficient offering. But if that does happen, then I'll say this: firing one manager is fine, especially if you inherited him. Firing two managers is okay, because nobody's perfect. But when you fire three managers, then eventually people start asking questions about the person doing the hiring and firing. If Gibbons is dismissed, it should be seen as a severe indictment of Ricciardi's performance.
I'm not even going to countenance the thought of a Halladay injury, because it's a beautiful sunny day and I'd like my life to be a happy one.
Halladay really seemed to be thrown off by runners on second last
night, several times he stepped off, worked slowly, called time...maybe he's worried about tipping pitches or stealing signs for
some reason, or perhaps teams have picked up on something and are using
it. It's a long way from the only problem he was having, but with
runners on second last night Halladay managed:
Bad pickoff throw, runner goes to third, scores on groundout.
Single, RBI
Home run, 3 runs
Groundball out
Double, RBI
Sac Fly, runner to third
I didn't see a velocity problem (unless 90-93 is worrisome now), and I didn't see pitches that looked bad. What I saw several times were pitches that looked good being hit very hard. I hold out hope that he's been tipping his pitches or giving signs away somehow.
Bad pickoff throw, runner goes to third, scores on groundout.
Single, RBI
Home run, 3 runs
Groundball out
Double, RBI
Sac Fly, runner to third
I didn't see a velocity problem (unless 90-93 is worrisome now), and I didn't see pitches that looked bad. What I saw several times were pitches that looked good being hit very hard. I hold out hope that he's been tipping his pitches or giving signs away somehow.
Jordan:
I don't think I would put JP's chances of being GM in 2010 at extremely high. I would say that JP's chances of being GM at this time next year are extremely high but after 2008 all bets are off. Rogers evaluates JP in two ways, on the field and off the field. It has been said that JP has done a good job of satisfying Rogers off the field. If the Jays recent troubles impact the gate and TV audiences then JP might not be able to meet budget and satisfy Rogers.
Rogers increased the payroll in the off-season and let's assume that the increase was based on attendance jumping to 2.5 million. Let's assume it comes in 300,000 short, and let's also assume that is equivalent to $6 million. How does JP make that up?
The team that JP has assembled could be the same team on the field in 2008, most of the key players are signed through then. Wells, Glaus, Overbay, Thomas, Zaun are signed and Hill, Rios and Lind are still under the Jays control. Halladay, Burnett and Ryan are all signed with several younger pitchers also under the Jays control. If JP claims injuries hurt the 2007 team then why would he trade Glaus or Thomas, if he believes in this team then he would keep them together for another year.
This brings me back to the dollars. If the team will be $6 million short on revenue then trading Glaus for prospects would save that amount of money. JP has stated that you cannot win in the AL East with too many rookies, if he trades Glaus for a couple of rookies then he is satisfying the accountants at the expense of the team on the field.
Personally I felt Fasano was moving into position way too early last night, which could have been tipping off location to the batters and/or base runners. But Phillips was behind the plate during Halladay's May 5 start.
Now the contender lies bleeding on the canvas. The manager pries the
teeth guard from the fallen's bloody gums. The team barely has a pulse.
We are all stunned, angry, disappointed, devastated, embarrassed, and
now lonely. We see months ahead with no reprieve, no lessening of the
pain. Ugly. Ugly.
I feel like someone who just paid to watch Hurricane McNeeley on Pay per view.
Rogers increased the payroll in the off-season and let's assume that the increase was based on attendance jumping to 2.5 million. Let's assume it comes in 300,000 short, and let's also assume that is equivalent to $6 million. How does JP make that up?
JP might get a pass on 100,000 of that figure. It you assume the Jays collectively had 3 weekend series against New York and Boston instead of 0, they'd like see an attendance increase of that much. The Jays gain 10-15,000 per game for a weekend set against those team, as compared to midweek games, in my estimation. They got 22,000 last night. If it was a weekend set around this time, even with the team struggling, one would think they would get 35-40,000.
22,000? Really? That must be JP's version of the crowd.
The RC was dead last night... except for the Sox fans.
Side note: I happened to hear Cito's name being chanted on more than one occasion this week.
The RC was dead last night... except for the Sox fans.
Side note: I happened to hear Cito's name being chanted on more than one occasion this week.
Announced attendance was 22,290. Yeah, it probably wasn't that high, but that's not too far off, either. You're not going to get less than high teens for a game against Boston. I was there, it was dead and five thousand probably left before the seventh inning began.