Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Talking 'Bout the Doctor

In the current poll thread discussion, Bauxite zeppelinkm pleads,

"Can we please get a thread up to talk about Roy Halladay (or a general Jays thread at least!). Pleeeeeeeease! He's reinvented himself again (well, at least his approach), and it's awesome to watch. I have no one to discuss the awesomeness of Halladay with..."

So here it is. Over to you zep (or any Bauxite who wants to jump in) ... Roy Halladay has "reinvented himself again," you say? What's that mean, and why should we be talking about it?

Go!

Posted by Mick Doherty on Monday, March 12 2007 @ 12:06 PM EDT.

Talking 'Bout the Doctor | 50 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

zeppelinkm - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#164261) #

Seeing that thread title made my day.. you guys rock.

This is my post taken from the last thread on the Jays, on Halladay:

He's only throwing sinkers and changeups thus far. He mixed in 4 curveballs into those perfect 4 innings, whereas every outting up to Sundays start was exclusively sinkers and changeups. He said he wants to get comfortable with his sinker and changeup to the point of being able to throw them in pressure situations that he used to rely heavily on the cutter on.

Here are a couple good articles from the Jay's site that talk about it, albeit fairly brieftly in the 2nd one.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070301&content_id=1821524&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070305&content_id=1827785&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor

A snippet from the first link there:

Halladay still plans on working more cutters into the mix when Toronto gets deeper into the Spring Training schedule. During the season, though, he wants to use the sinking fastball on both sides of the plate and in situations when he used to depend heavily on the cutter.

"I feel like there's some things I want to work on this spring -- some new things," Halladay said. "Getting out and trying them a little bit is nice. ... I want to be able to rely on those two [pitches] and get better at using them and get better at getting out of jams with them."

Another good Doc quote from after his perfect 4 innings:

"When you start getting those swings where they're fooled a little bit, it helps with your confidence."

And apparently Royce Clayton approached Halladay to talk about how Halladay approaches certain situations, so that Clayton could read the situations and position himself accordingly. Doc liked the proactive approach he took! I gotta admit, it is nice to see the team wanting to get cohesive as a unit.

AWeb - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#164262) #

Hey, new pitches are good, especially if it helps him stay healthy. It seems as though he's cut down on curveballs a lot the last few years, and now throwing fewer cutters as well, both as I recall to save his arm. In my head, a changeup should be the easiest pitch on the arm (aside from the fastball)...if he can't stay healthy throwing mostly fastballs and changes, then is it time for the injury-prone label to stick? Maybe he will need to be treated like Pedro has been the last few years, and given some time off/extra rest before injuries flare up too much. But that's purely hypothetical, if he can't stay healthy again. Worrying about his health a year after throwing 220 innings (4th in the league) is silly, of course, but I really hope he doesn't go the way of Juan Guzman, who seemed to have 2 choices : Throw nasty stuff, pitch well, get injured, or stay healthy, throw lower quality pitches, get killed.

At the end of last year, as I remember it, Halladay was shut down to protect his arm, even though he might've been able to keep pitching. If the Jays are in the race in September this year, do they make the same call to protect his arm?

Paul D - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#164263) #

I always thought that Guzman would have made a good closer.

Web, I can't see the Jays shutting Halladay down to give him rest if they're in it.

Personally, I'm hoping that the Jays have a large enough lead on the rest of the East that they can go to a 6 man rotation for September, to give everyone a little bit extra rest.

King Rat - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#164264) #

I think if Halladay can pitch, and the Jays are in the race, then the Jays obviously have to pitch him. I think you're right to observe that most of Halladay's evolution as a pitcher seems to have been aimed at keeping himself healthy: I was already amazed that his was able to cut down on his curve to the extent he has and remain effective; if he's able to stay at a high level while limiting his use of the cutter, I'll be even more impressed. I can't think, offhand, of a pitcher who's thrived while eliminating not one but two high-quality out pitches from his arsenal; am I missing anyone, do you think?

BigTimeRoyalsFan - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#164266) #

i was in florida for the 3 weekend jay games, and doc looked awesome. truly amazing. bj did not. its not that he got hit, its how hard they were hitting the ball. it looked to me like his delivery was more over-the-top than last year. i dont know if he did, but i hope he didnt mess with a perfect thing.

jp also assured me there is zero truth to the rios nonsense - his exact words were "have we made one bad trade since i got here?" he also still thinks EXTREMELY highly of mr. adams

greenfrog - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#164267) #

One thing I wonder about is whether being around Doc has a positive effect on other Jays pitchers. You often hear players say they learn a lot by being around pitchers of his calibre, but I don't know if they perform better as a result.

I'm sure Halladay was one reason AJ came to Toronto. And Towers recently relocated in the clubhouse so he could snuggle up to Roy and AJ...

AWeb - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#164268) #

For the record, I don't think the Jays should shut down Halladay in the situation I described either...if it's close enough to matter to the race, and he can pitch, he should pitch. "Next year" hopefully becomes "this year" at some point, you have to give it a try.

I'd like to think Halladay can not so much eliminate the cutter and curve, as hold them in reserve and only use them in tough spots when he needs the K or the double play grounder. Like Greg Maddux from the 90's. I would think a changeup/curve combo could be quite devastating, as I don't recall many featuring those pitches successfully (put your hand down, "I have 10 pitches" Batista), aside from Jaime Moyer. And look how well it's worked for him.

I read Ryan has been quite sick, and only pitched yesterday to get his arm ready. As I understood it, in the regular season, he wouldn't have pitched due to illness, but needed to start getting into games at some point soon. Has anyone heard what is ailing Ryan?

zeppelinkm - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#164271) #

Here's another interesting read about the Doc that was in the Sun:

www.torontosun.com/Sports/Columnists/Elliott_Bob/2007/03/09/3719625.html

Lefty - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#164272) #

Any explanation rendered for the extreme optimism for Adams?

I'm certainly pleased to hear this reported in any case.

Mike Green - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#164273) #

The Hardball Times now has 3 year zone rating data on player pages. Very helpful.

Flex - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#164278) #

Interesting about that story on Halladay, especially when he reveals that the book The Mental ABC's of Pitching helped him get through such troubles as reacting with 'oh no, here we go again' when something would go wrong.

So it makes me think, Isn't that precisely what's plaguing Josh Towers? Can't anyone buy him a copy of the damn book?

Mylegacy - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#164279) #

I've a bit of concern when Doc re-invents himself. Because of the hip bone being connected to the arm bone, etc., etc., I'm a bit worried that he may be saving one area from pain only to get pain somewhre else shortly. Time will tell. However no question he is looking vunderbar!

Flex - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#164285) #

By the way, Javy Lopez has been released by Colorado. Is he an option as a back-up catch for the Jays or has he completely lost it?

Lefty - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#164290) #

Lopez has apparently let it be known he is not interested in back-up or DH. Its too bad' he would be a nice cheap option at first and catcher. But in my view not worth the controversy.

Ron - Monday, March 12 2007 @ 11:01 PM EDT (#164292) #

I find it really interesting that Lopez hit 11 HR's in 2002 and then 43 in 2003. In 2004, he took a big dip back to 23 HR's. Based on what I saw from Lopez's stint with the Red Sox last season, he has nothing left in the tank. Looks like the Rockies felt the same way.

Original Ryan - Tuesday, March 13 2007 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#164298) #

In the final week of spring training, four Jays games are going to be televised. The schedule:

Mar. 24 @ NYY - Sportsnet with NY feed
Mar. 25 vs. CIN - Sportsnet
Mar. 28 @ CLE - Sportsnet with CLE feed
Mar. 29 vs. NYY - TSN (presumably a TSN production)

Three of those games were going to be on MLB.TV anyway. Personally I wish one of the networks had done one or two earlier games -- I always like seeing some of the minor leaguers in action for the first time, and by the end of spring training I usually don't care much about the exhibition games and just want the season to start.

Cracka - Tuesday, March 13 2007 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#164300) #

It looks like Lopez can still hit, but he just can't throw anymore (0 for 8 in SB attempts in the Spring). The problem is that he still fancies himself as an everyday catcher and will not accept a back-up job or a DH/1B/C role. "I don't think I'll go anywhere else as a backup. The way I feel, I can easily be an everyday catcher. If I'm not an everyday catcher, I'd rather not play this year or retire." He didn't sign with an AL club in the off-season because he doesn't want to DH... and he's stated that the only team that he'll be a backup for is the Braves.

I think he'd be a decent fit in Toronto, but obviously that's not what he wants. But I can't see anyone offering him a starting job at this point in his career...

ayjackson - Tuesday, March 13 2007 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#164306) #

AJ Burnett got the start today against a Red Sox team featuring ManRam and little else. His line looks good - 4 IP, 0 R, 1 H, 2 BB, 5 K, 6:1 GB/FB. Janssen is on in relief. No score in the fifth, Jason Smith started at SS.

Well it's only early Spring, but Jays starters seem to be performing well.

VBF - Tuesday, March 13 2007 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#164309) #

Wilner on the FAN:

-Believes Towers will start Opening Day as the Jays fifth starter, with Thomson third, and Chacin fourth.
-Zambrano is doing very well and could take over a third starter spot later on in the season.

That was about it, folks.

timpinder - Tuesday, March 13 2007 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#164311) #

I won't be that surprised if Towers begins the year as the fifth starter, but if he does I'm sure he'll be on a very short leash. If his first two starts are poor I believe that'll be it.

China fan - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 03:33 AM EDT (#164321) #

Let's assume Wilner's prediction is correct. (It is certainly plausible. Towers and Thomson look sharp so far.) If so, then Zambrano can be hidden on the DL or in the bullpen for a while. But what about Ohka? He'd still be valuable for the pitching depth that the team sorely lacked in 2006. I wouldn't want to lose him. But I assume he cannot be sent to the minors without exposing him to waivers. Is there some way to keep Ohka around?

So far, the newly acquired pitchers have all looked good, but how do you keep them all available to the team? It's a nice problem to have, but it would be nice to have a solution too.

John Northey - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 08:26 AM EDT (#164322) #

If all 3 of the new starters plus Towers are doing well at the end of spring then I wouldn't be surprised if the Jays hunt down a trade partner. Might just get a minor prospect, but better than nothing out of 3 guys who were not here last year and one we all wanted gone by mid-season.

Original Ryan - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 09:02 AM EDT (#164325) #

But what about Ohka? He'd still be valuable for the pitching depth that the team sorely lacked in 2006. I wouldn't want to lose him. But I assume he cannot be sent to the minors without exposing him to waivers. Is there some way to keep Ohka around?

If the team goes with seven relievers, there should be enough room to carry Ohka around in the bullpen, especially if Accardo and/or Marcum wind up in AAA to start the year.

earlweaverfan - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#164326) #

The surplus of genuine candidates for a starting pitcher role in the major leagues may grow beyond Okha as the season wears on. Let's assume Wilner's five names for starter are right (I share his view, so far.). Let's also assume that two of the other SP candidates join Downs in the mid-to-long relief corps (Marcum and Zambrano).

Now, we have the following six pitchers for whom a slot in Syracuse (or higher) would be entirely justified: Okha, Janssen, Banks, Ramirez, Taubenheim, and McGowan.. Yes, a trade of one of them for a promising minor league position player might bring that down to five. Next, what starting roster does this keep down on the New Hampshire farm? I am guessing some combination of Ricky Romero, Purcey, MacDonald, Litsch, and Yates? All five of those would, in a less jam-packed pitching contingent, contend for a promotion to Syracuse by mid-season. Will there be any room for any of them to climb?

Now go back to the original assumption that Marcum and Zambrano (starters in waiting) start the season in the bullpen. If one or both of them does not make this assignment, then they might be back to Syracuse, with genuine relievers like Accardo or Tallet in their places. While both Marcum and Zambrano may be content to be relievers for a while with the Jays, would they be happy going down to Syracuse, and pitching in mid-to-long relief there? That seems like a recipe for disappearing. So, one of the Syracuse 5 or 6 might need to get bumped further down. This is why, by the way, I am so convinced that my original assumption about M and Z is correct.

Of course, there is still plenty of time for several of these players to get injured, and for others to flame out. Until that happens, however, it looks a bit like musical chairs, with the outcome for the ones left standing - and the others at the next level down - being uncertain.

P.S., Brandon League was oh, so thoughtless in not preparing himself properly for the start of the season. Unless he is genuinely ready, it will be very tempting for them to put League on the disabled list to start the season, so that either Tallet or Accardo can start with the Jays. They may figure that by the time they bring League back, someone else may have gotten injured or may have shown they are not ready. Did he really want to hand them that option?

JustinD - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#164330) #

With Thompson getting hit hard today and Ohka only allowing 2 hits in 4 shutout innings, does that change the rotation battle at all? At the beginning of the year I was pulling for Marcum to make the rotation. He had a nice last couple of starts and I think he could do very well.

One more that is entirely not related to the pitching, just want to say it, I miss the Dude.

ayjackson - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#164331) #

Personally, I don't think Towers will beat out Okha or Zambrano for a starting role. I don't believe he has to clear waivers to go to AAA, either, just be reassigned. I think he'd get traded, but I can't figure out who would want him. I think he'd be effective in pitcher's parks and more so in the NL, and his contract isn't much of an investment these days. He's a FA in the fall as well. I think Washington would be a good fit.

But I don't want starting in Toronto and I certainly don't want him starting in Syracuse or New Hampshire (and taking up developmental spots).

Paul D - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#164333) #

Considering his injury and the competition, it will be virtually impossible for Zambrano to beat out anyone for a spot in the rotation. He is starting the season at extended spring training on in the minors.

greenfrog - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#164334) #

There's no point in rushing Zambrano. We need him to be healthy. I would prefer to see him stay in Florida for a month or so, but I suspect the Jays may take him north as an extra reliever.

Health issues aside, I think the 4-5 positions in the rotation should go to the players who are pitching the best (which may not correspond exactly with spring stats).

Ohka's four shutout innings are nice, but I hope he'll start to K a modest number of batters as he progresses. Zero K's is a bit worrisome, even for a finesse guy like Tomo.

Ron - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#164335) #

If the Jays feel like they have 6 solid starters heading into the regular season, they would be foolish to trade one of them. No team in baseball goes through a whole season where their 5 starters in the first week are the same 5 starters in the last week of the season. Injuries and poor performances are bound to happen.

Squiggy - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#164338) #

Ron,

I totally agree, although the 5 starters through the season thing has happened at least once recently. I believe the 2001 Mariners did it.

Jim - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 08:43 PM EDT (#164339) #

I don't believe he has to clear waivers to go to AAA, either, just be reassigned.

I am pretty sure that he would
A. Have to clear waivers (not that anyone would take the contract)
B. Refuse his outright to Syracuse and keep his guaranteed money because he's been outrighted before and become a free agent.

Jim - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#164340) #

I wish you could edit posts on this site.

I believe that he would have the right to refuse his outright, I do not know if he would or not.

Magpie - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#164341) #

No team in baseball goes through a whole season where their 5 starters in the first week are the same 5 starters in the last week of the season.

It's extremely unusual, and I'm pretty sure the Jays have never managed it - but the next Season Preview I'm writing (it should appear on Saturday, although it may be a little late, or even a bit skimpy - see below) concerns a team that did that very thing just last season. The same five guys, from April through October, each making 30+ starts.

Nice to be back, by the way. A power surge fried my motherboard. Kind of like being on the DL.

westcoast dude - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#164343) #

No wonder Ohka is Bart Simpson's role model. Based on today's performance, it looks like he can replace Lily's innings. Pitching to contact, he may even challenge Doc for most innings on the club. Thomson, on the other hand, blew himself off the radar in an extremely competitive environment. Towers is an interesting case. If he keeps putting up bagels, he stays in the rotation, at least until Zambrano is ready to start. Geremi Gonzalez is a dark horse, but Taubenheim. Janssen and Marcum could all potentially win 15 games and have a breakout year, given the chance at a spot in the rotation.

Ron - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#164344) #

It's extremely unusual, and I'm pretty sure the Jays have never managed it - but the next Season Preview I'm writing (it should appear on Saturday, although it may be a little late, or even a bit skimpy - see below) concerns a team that did that very thing just last season. The same five guys, from April through October, each making 30+ starts.

Looks like you're talking about the White Sox. Their 5 main projected starters logged more innings than every other team by a landslide. Although Jose Contreras never pitched in October. His last start was September 22nd vs. the Mariners. He was pulled in the 3rd inning after getting a strained right hamstring. I would be interested to know which was the last team that had their 5 projected first week starters make it all the way to the end of the season without missing 1 single start. Perhaps this has never happened before.

As for the 2001 Mariner, the ineffective/or injured John Halama was pulled from the rotation midway through the season and replaced with Joel Pineiro.

John Northey - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 11:28 PM EDT (#164345) #

I could've sworn the Dodgers did it recently. Checking Baseball-Reference.com I see that in 1996 they used just 6 starters (6th guy got 10 starts), 1994 the 6th guy got just 1 start, 1993 the 6th guy had just 2 starts (6th guy was Pedro Martinez).

Wow, in the 93-96 stretch their conditioning or pitching coach or both must've been amazing. Still no sign of a team with just 5 starters in the past 20 years though.

ayjackson - Wednesday, March 14 2007 @ 11:51 PM EDT (#164346) #

If the Jays feel like they have 6 solid starters heading into the regular season, they would be foolish to trade one of them.

Except if he's the seventh- which Towers would be, behind Doc, AJ, Gus, Thommo, Ohka, Zambrano. Zambrano is early candidate to start in the pen. Towers could go in the pen in Syracuse, but we don't want him using a starter's spot in the minors, in my opinion, when a real prospect could be pitching in that hole.

Magpie - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#164347) #

Looks like you're talking about the White Sox.

Indeed I am, and I've now used up pretty much my whole store of New Things I Can Think of To Say About the White Sox.

The Braves (surprise, surprise) have a couple of recent contenders. In 2003, the fivesome of Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, Ramirez, and Reynolds started 159 of 162 games. Jason Marquis made two starts and Trey Hodges started once in early April before Reynolds came aboard after being released by the Astros. He made his Braves debut on April 15.

Going back a bit, both 1994 and 1995 were shortened seasons. The Braves played 258 games over those two years, using the same five starters for 253 of them - Glavine (25 and 29), Maddux (25 and 28), Avery (24 and 28), Smoltz (21 and 29), Mercker (17 and 26). Bielecki and Woodall each made a single start in 1994; Schmidt (twice) and Murray started games in 1995.

HollywoodHartman - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 07:39 AM EDT (#164349) #

The 5some of Moyer, Garcia, Franklin, Meche, and Pinero started all 162 games in 2003 for the Mariners (33,33,32,32,32 starts).

China fan - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#164353) #

Here's a good question that was posted by someone over at MLB.com's Fan Forum: what's happened to Davis Romero? He doesn't seem to have pitched a single inning with the Jays in any of the Grapefruit games so far, yet I haven't seen a whisper about him being injured or AWOL or sent to the minor-league training camp or anything. He had a great season last year, rising dramatically through the ranks and ending up on the major-league squad. He seemed to have a bright future, and now he has disappeared. Anyone know anything about him?

Gerry - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#164355) #

Davis Romero is injured. I have not seen any indication that it is season ending but he showed up with a "sore arm".

Ron - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#164357) #

The 5some of Moyer, Garcia, Franklin, Meche, and Pinero started all 162 games in 2003 for the Mariners (33,33,32,32,32 starts).

Well we have a winner. I guess it shouldn't surprise anybody the Mariners were really good that year.

tstaddon - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#164360) #

Gerry and Greenfrog:

Jordan Bastian is reporting that Davis Romero has a torn labrum and will have to undergo season-ending surgery. That's a tough break for a kid who not only has a bright future, but also figured to be the first LHP recalled if anything happened to Downs or Tallet.

In other news, an Insider report on ESPN says that Jeremy Accardo is the most likely reliever in all of baseball to rebound from a subpar season. With League on the mend and Romero out, here's hoping they're right.

mathesond - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#164362) #

Gordon Lightfoot has chimed in with his Jays preview

KevinJaysFan - Thursday, March 15 2007 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#164363) #

The Globe's Spring Training 'blog' confirms the Davis Romero story - he's done for the year. Also, Troy Glaus has a cortisone shot today (left shoulder) and will be out for a few days. Hopefully nothing too serious...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/baseball

SheldonL - Friday, March 16 2007 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#164391) #

Gordon Lightfoot, if you could read my mind, what a tale my thoughts would tell...

namely, how dare you call Scott Downs useless !

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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.