Favourite Alomar memory is definitely the home run against Eck - especially coming after the point and glare by Eck in the previous inning.  I remember jumping off the couch and raising my arms just like Robbie as he rounded the bases.

Although I agree he is the greatest Jay ever to play 2nd base, and likely on the list of greatest Jays of all time, his reputation for me will be forever tarnished by the Hirshbeck incident.

There are some things that are simply inexcusable, and, unfortunately, that will be my lasting memory of Alomar.

I love Alomar.  He was a complete player in a way so few are.  Whenever I think of the glory days of the Jays,  he (and Joe Carter) are the face of the team.  It makes me sad in some ways that he isn't still playing.  He would save you at least a run a game with his defense and he would hit for the situation.  You need a 2 run homer, he could do it.  You need base runners, he'd get you a double. And my father, who has watched a lot of baseball in his time, has said that not only was Alomar the best player to wear a Jays uni, he may even be the best all round player ever.

Catch the taste!!!

Favourite player of all time.

 his reputation for me will be forever tarnished by the Hirshbeck incident.

I was too young when Alomar was with the Jays but I remember the stir caused when he spit at Hirshbeck. But I think I will remember him as a world-class only because of how he and Hirshbeck later reconciled. It takes a certain degree of courage and respect, something that we are all capable of but very few use, to apologize to Hirshbeck and help him with charity work when Hirshbeck's son was diagnosed with a serious disease. From legend, he was apparently the best second baseman to play for the Jays (which certainly means a great deal to me considering I saw Orlando Hudson's game saving defensive plays and a pretty good bat too) and an awesome person too!

Although we all have great memories, especially of those diving stops behind the bag and snap throws to first, the one that sticks out for me is Robbie's very last day in uniform. I was in St. Petersburg (March 19, 2005, night game) watching a routine spring training game between the Jays and Rays, when Alomar made two errors in a row, then simply walked off the field and kept going into the clubhouse, retiring on the spot. For someone who played hall of fame defense, that was intolerable, and he chose to leave with some pride rather than eke out another year playing for a last place team with diminishing skills.

A valid counter-point, and I think it's excellent that they made up and Alomar did some charitable work (apparently some of the money came on urging from Hirshbeck's lawyers, but I digress).  For me, however, it's tough to get some images out of your head.  And regardless of the names that anyone gets called, it's simply not acceptable to respond with spitting in another's face.

Furthermore, I also recall Alomar sitting out the very last game of his Blue Jays career so he could ensure that he finished with a .300 batting average.  Aside from the fact that batting average is an extremely poor valuation tool of a player's worth (it was also one of his worst OBP years at .354), that strikes me as childish and immature.

Unfortunately, that's my lasting memory of Alomar - childish and immature.

it's simply not acceptable to respond with spitting in another's face.

Well, it could have been worse. Babe Ruth once slugged an umpire, and if Hirschbeck had said what he said to Alomar somewhere other than on the field, he may well have received the Babe Ruth treatment.

Aside from the Eckersley HR and appropriate celebration, I remember him tormenting the A's on the basepaths that series, which seemed appropriate after the Rickey Henderson experience from years earlier. The torch was passed! I also recall Nolan Ryan striking him out to complete his 7th no hitter. The swing was one for the fences...Alomar wasn't going to try and break up the no-no with a soft single over shortstop.

Alomar was great. In the field, of course, and at bat (I remember a game against the White Sox in which he hit homers from opposite sides of the plate); but I also admired his base-running: he was a *very* smart baserunner--as good as Molitor. An absolutely wonderful, all-round player.

As for the so-called Hirshbeck incident, I think it got vastly over-played by the media. (The spit, by the way, was *at* H., not “in his face”.) Hirshbeck himself was no angel (he had an unseemly run-in with a Japanese pitcher in a west-coast game earlier that year.) There were two people wrong in the Toronto incident, and one of them was Hirshbeck; but his off-field sadness understandably earned him a lot of automatic sympathy. The local media was already on Alomar’s case before the “incident” anyway; among many alleged reasons was his apparent readiness to leave Toronto. I guess a lot of people thought Babe Ruth was childish and immature, too.

In any case, we won’t see anyone better than Roberto for a long, long time.

Alomar was my favourite player.  I wore 12.  I wanted to play 2B.  I listed him as my favourite player on all my Little League baseball materials.

This just made it all the tougher when he:
a) quit on my favourite team to preserve his stats
b) spit on/at/in the direction of an umpire
c) quit on his team again, in the middle of the game, in a lame effort to preserve his legacy

As a kid/teenager, etc. this can be quite discouraging - your role model starts exhibiting very "un-role-model-like" behaviour.  Was Alomar's actions that much worse than lots of other players?  No, not really.  But was it particularly discouraging when you want to be like the person.

As a result, I've unfortunately deleted Alomar from my list of favourites.  The Jays I will most remember from 1992-1993 will be Carter and Molly.  Class acts, and Toronto heros (and yes, I'm aware of Molitor's drug struggles.  It's different.).  Anyone who's interested in Molitor (Molly being my all-time favourite Jay), would do well to check his biography: Paul Molitor: Good Timing by Stuart Broomer).

The pure joy he took in his wonderful play. His eyes, glowing with wonder at his own plays. He reminds me of Toad, of Toad Hall in Wind In The Willows, a guy totally in love with his health, his body, and the wonderful things he could do. Sheer enjoyment.

My hero.

Oh,my. I have more good memories of watching Robbie than probably any other single player. One image that still lives is Robbie trotting in from third base, scoring on a HR (Sprague, maybe?) against the Braves, smiling widely and ridiculing the Atlanta fans' stupid racist "tomohawk chop". A wonderful moment of victory over evil.

MLB's suspension policies and its loopholes didn't help Alomar's reputation in Toronto or his legacy. As I recall, Alomar appealed his suspension following the Hirschbeck incident, then hit a clutch home run against the Jays to sew up a playoff spot for Baltimore. The appeal was then quickly dropped - not sure if this was to insure that Alomar wouldn't miss any playoff games.

Had the suspension been served immediately and Alomar apologized, I think he would have been forgiven more quickly. There would have been an air of fairplay: Yes, you committed an offence, but you paid for it. Instead we got the "star athlete weasels out of his just punishment because the big game is more important." That sort of thing generally leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Rather like Kenny Rogers pitching in the All-Star game after wailing on a cameraman. I'd love to see MLB adopt a policy of "you can appeal the suspension, but you might get MORE games if you do." Of course, the union will never agree to anything of the sort, but it's nice to dream.

I do think the chronic booing of Alomar in Toronto got a tad ridiculous toward the end. It just became the thing to do. I'm sure a lot of fans didn't even realize why they were booing. I look forward to Alomar's number going up and a reconcilliation with the Jays faithful.

Someone mentioned the White Sox game when Robbie homered from both sides of the plate. I believe both shots tied the game, one in the ninth and once in extra innings, allowing the Jays to play on. They lost anyway, but it was a great performance. 

Robbie Alomar was what Derek Jeter would be if he was actually a good defensive player. Wonder who'll have to wait longer for Cooperstown...

 

 

 

They both go in on the first ballot, I'd think. And that's as it should be!

Here's a small story about Robbie's gracious side.

My money's on Jeter waiting longer because Alomar will be, I think, a first ballot selection.  Without comment on the merits, I think that Alomar was seen as the best second baseman of the decade and a greater player than Craig Biggio or Jeff Kent, for instance. 

He had a beautiful swing from the left-hand side, and a solid one from the right-hand side.

And yes, Jeter will go in on the first ballot too, in about 12 years.

Geoff, the kid in that picture has probably the best hair I've ever seen.

My favourite memory of Alomar has to be his tomhawk chop in as he scored from 3rd in the bottom of the nineth in game following Candy Maldonaldo's single in game 3 of the '92 series. I always like to see a little bit of in-your-face attitude and Alomar that.

the kid in that picture has probably the best hair I've ever seen

His dad no doubt lifted him into the barber's chair, turned to the barber and said "give the kid a Stottlemyre".

Jevant... I try not to give too much moral advice, but I strongly recommend trying to forgive Robbie (who is genuinely remorseful over the incident).  See how it feels - you don't have to make it permanent. 

You have nothing but bitterness to lose and everything - years and years of wonderful memories - to gain.

What Craig said. No one should be judged by their worst moment. I don't want to be. Neither do you.

My favourite Alomar memory: in 1991, when he first arrived in Toronto, TSN was broadcasting a spring training game. An opposing batter hit a slow roller to second. Alomar charged in, scooped down, barehanded the ball, and flung it to first in one motion. Buck Martinez's comment: "Get used to that, folks."

I remember when the Carter-Alomar/McGriff-Fernandez trade was first reported. That was an amazing feeling. I thought, now we have a chance to be a great team. At the time, Alomar wasn't all that well known, but there was a kind of underground buzz about him--avid fans and the baseball cognoscenti knew he was a real talent.

I just checked his 1992 and 1993 stats. Unbelievable. Those were great, great seasons for Alomar.

So where does Roberto rank all-time among second basemen, in people's estimation?  I think he's in a group with Craig Biggio and Ryne Sandberg, the modern greats, who rank just behind the all-time greats Morgan, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie.  It's hard to know what to do with Collins and Lajoie, who were playing a very different game, but it's almost impossible to take enough out of their accomplishments to bring the modern guys up to their level.  Imagine Frank Thomas or Jason Giambi playing a brilliant defensive second base... that was Collins.

Then there's Jackie Robinson, who's sui generis, in a class by himself.  Robinson was clearly a better player than the modern second basemen; in fact, he was so good that if you gave me a pitcher and told me I could clone any player in history eight times to play behind him, I would very likely opt for Jackie, over anyone including Honus Wagner (remember, you'd need a right-handed thrower which excludes your Babes and Barrys, but I think I might pick Jackie anyway).  Jackie was probably the greatest all-around athlete in American history, if I had to pick one.  He might be the best second baseman ever, actually.  I guess Hornsby beats him on peak if Morgan doesn't on career.

So I guess Robbie is about the sixth or seventh greatest second baseman of all time, with Charley Gehringer and the modern guys (no Negro Leagues 2B is really up there as an all-time top 10 guy).

To date, I've only seen one playoff game in person (1st game, '93 WS), and my fondest recollection isn't the home runs hit by White or Olerud, but the defensive play made by Alomar in diving to catch a soft liner that went over the head of Olerud.  Literally awesome!

Had Molitor been a Jay longer, he may have eclipsed Alomar as my fav!

I used up an unconscionable quantity of bandwith on second basemen for the Hall Watch series.  Joe Morgan is to my mind the best second baseman ever.  Eddie Collins was one of the best three players in the game at his peak, and slightly behind Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker.  Joe Morgan was the best in the game at his peak.  Actually, he had the highest peak between Mantle and Bonds (91-93 version).  When the lively ball era arrived, Collins was still a great player, but his lack of power did stand out from his game and the separation between Speaker and him became clearer.  He was ideally suited to the game of 1910-1911, a high batting average/low power environment.  Robinson was the closest to Morgan, in my view.  You need a fine tooth comb to separate them; Morgan's best years in his 30s were a little better than Jackie's in his 30s and I have the sense that Jackie was one of those players who reached his peak late.  It's really hard to assess.

As for Alomar, Biggio, Kent, Grich, Sandberg, Whitaker, they're all in the next group.  You can argue for any order of them, as far as I am concerned, depending on how you see their defensive contributions.  I'd probably make them Grich, Whitaker, Biggio, Kent, Alomar and Sandberg, but if you put them in the complete reverse order, I wouldn't argue.  I'd take any of them over Schoendienst, Lazzeri and Billy Herman. Charlie Gehringer might be a smidge ahead of this group depending on how one weights career vs. peak value. 

All that, and you didn't mention Hornsby!  I think Hornsby was probably the best of the lot when push comes to shove... yes, Joe Morgan was a B+ or A- second baseman who was an incredible hitter, and Rajah may have only been a C+ second baseman, but Rajah was also a guy who put up six of the best 100 hitting seasons of all time, which Morgan couldn't do.

Little Joe did a lot of amazing things in his time, but he never put up a .507 OBP.  Hornsby's bat makes a guy like Albert Pujols pale in comparison.

Robbie's best team moments came with the Jays in the early nineties, but his best individual moments, arguably came during his time with the Tribe, and some very good years with the O's. Is there any chance he goes into Cooperstown without a Jays cap on?

I was 13-14 years old when they won the World Series...didn't have quite the same level of appreciation for it all as I do now, but thankfully I still have some great memories of Robbie. I've always dreamed of the Jays making another trade like that one ever since. With all due respect to Orlando Merced and Carlos Garcia, maybe it will still happen one day.

This story is being referred to quite a bit but it actually made me feel better to read it, as I didn't know exactly where things had gone. It seems like Alomar and Hirschbeck really did bury the hatchet, and if Hirschbeck can do it, well...

 

Is there any chance he goes into Cooperstown without a Jays cap on?

No.  He played 5 years with the Jays and no more than 3 years with any other.  In those 5 years the Jays won 2 championships (he didn't play in the WS with another team), he was an All Star all 5 years, finished 6th in MVP 3 times (which seems odd that it was 6th each time), won gold gloves all 5 years, and won the ALCS MVP in 1992.

He had a nice three year run in Cleveland, but it doesn't stack up with his time in Toronto.

And this probably isn't the best place to ask it, but when you think of Alomar don't you think of him as a Jay more than any other team?  To me he passes the 'feel' test and the resume test (especially when you look at the counting stats).

I was the same age as williams_5 when the Jays won the WS and I remember how godly Alomar was. 

Not only was he the cornerstone of the team but it seemed that he was the epitome of cool in Toronto.  Girls loved him (he was often the only person they knew), he was a class act, and he lived in the Skydome, which at the time was something amazing in and of itself.  He was THE man.

Good ol' Alomar.  My #2 favorite player (behind Tony Fernandez).  I remember a few months before 'the trade' thinking about how great it would be to have Alomar here in Toronto and wondering if Gillick would notice.  When the trade happened I learned about it via the newspaper the next day (University, limited funds, no cable, internet as we know it didn't exist) and still have that days Toronto Sun.  Still a bit annoyed with Ash over letting Alomar go due to his very poor assumption that players salaries would go down after the 1994 strike (he said later that he didn't want to negotiate until after the 1995 season since he thought that Alomar would be cheaper that way). 

Best memory?  Same as many, that home run in the '92 playoffs.  Other things that come to mind with Alomar was his living in the SkyDome hotel for years, the stalker in '95 who caused a bit of a scare, and his mentioning in an interview sometime in the last 2 years that he wants to go in the Hall as a Blue Jay and that he did regret leaving later on (sorry, no source as I can't recall where it was I read it and it was over a year ago).

Hornsby is right up there, but if one takes into account decentralization of batting statistics in the environment of the 20s compared with the 70s, I doubt that he was better than Morgan.  It is possible that the 20s gave us the greatest right-fielder ever, the greatest first baseman ever and the greatest second baseman ever, and that the 70s gave us none of these things (for which the compensation was the Bee Gees), but all in all, I think that it's unlikely. 

You've got the same argument in the pitching context in the Walter Johnson/Roger Clemens discussion.

I've always figured it's been kind of like this in baseball history:

Everyone else                                     ---------------->>>>                                       Ruth, Johnson, Hornsby
                               Everyone else                          -------->>>>>>>                       Musial, Williams, Mantle
                                                          Everyone else                      ------>>>            Bonds, Clemens, Pedro
                                                                  
It's really hard to judge the extreme outliers (the greats) as by comparing them to the rest of the players. The bulk of players now are far better than they were 50 or 100 years ago. But are the top players better? It's harder to distance yourself from a better field, which makes Pedro, Clemens, Pujols, Bonds so very impressive. Relative measures like ERA+ and OPS+ are best for comparing average players. They're still useful for extreme outliers, but not as much.

Agreed and acknowledged, Mike, but the key with Hornsby isn't necessarily that he was very good and so far above the average; rather, it was that he was head and shoulders above everyone else (Ruth excepted) for such a long time.  Joe Morgan was a very good hitter, and he had three years as a supremely great hitter, but they were his only three years as an elite-level hitter.  Hornsby was as good a hitter as Joe Morgan when he was a shortstop; he became a great hitter as soon as the lively ball came in (and as soon as he moved to second base) and remained a great hitter for the rest of his career.

Joe Morgan was the best hitter in the National League for about three years, and wasn't close before or after that (although he was still one of the best few players).  Hornsby was the best hitter in the National League for about fifteen years.  Morgan certainly played against better competition (integrated baseball, better-trained athletes).

Anyway, there's nothing particularly odd if eight men suddenly developed into eight of the fifteen best players ever (Ruth, Grove, Johnson, Hornsby, Gehrig, Paige, Gibson, Williams) between 1918 and 1939.   Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt, Wagner and Verdi (call it six of the top thirty, maybe? :) were born in the space of less than four years...  at least ten of the greatest and most influential minds in history were born in one relatively small town within the space of two hundred years... and so on.  Some eras are just naturally productive, and the inter-war period was certainly a near-perfect laboratory in which to produce extraordinary games players.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you, Mike, by the way.  I think Joe Morgan has a good argument as the greatest second baseman.

As for Roberto Alomar, it's a shame that he never won an MVP award, because he had many years when he should have been a strong candidate.  It was a travesty that Paul Molitor (a fine player, but not a patch on Roberto by that time) took away so many MVP votes from him in 1993, although it would have been hard to argue with the Big Hurt.

My favourite Alomar memory was this game, which was one of the most memorable ballgames I've been to despite it being an early-season loss to the White Sox.  He was about a month into his tenure as a Blue Jay, and his early impressions were based on flashy glovework, great baserunning and base stealing, a good eye and an ability to foul off pitches...plus superb bat control, especially on sacrifices and bunting for a hit.  In other words, an elite "little guy."

So at this game, with the Jays down to their last strike in the bottom of the ninth, he rips a game-tying homer from the left side of the plate off Bobby Thigpen.  Then, after the Sox push a run across in the eleventh, Alomar comes up against Scott Radinsky and hits another game-tying homer from the right side. 

All I could think at the time was "this guy is 23 years old and can do whatever he wants on the baseball field."

Wow. I hadn't realized Alomar was so early in his Blue Jay career in that White Sox game. I remember Tom Cheek's call of those two home runs, and he was beside himself with astonishment and awe at what he'd just seen. It really helped to cement my impression of Alomar's invincibility at the plate, and my later sense that when he wasn't swinging well, it wasn't for lack of ability, but maybe because, for whatever reason, he just wasn't into that particular game.

There was a quality in Alomar of being able to turn it on and off, like no other Blue Jay I've ever seen.

I learned about it via the newspaper the next day

I was browsing in a Yonge St bookstore. They had the radio on. They broke the news, and I was going "We got Roberto Alomar? We got ROBERTO ALOMAR!?!"

Christmas comes early! And Joe Carter, too, although I wasn't nearly as excited about that as I would have been a few years earlier. And the price is Tony Fernandez (Ouch) and Fred McGriff (OUCH!).

But still... we got ROBERTO ALOMAR! I couldn't shut up about it.

As Mike said, he could do any damn thing he wanted on a baseball field. I always enjoyed watching him take the throw from the outfield, spin around, and throw in behind the runner. Who scurries back to the base vowing never to take a big turn again...

"Robinson was clearly a better player than the modern second basemen; in fact, he was so good that if you gave me a pitcher and told me I could clone any player in history eight times to play behind him, I would very likely opt for Jackie, over anyone including Honus Wagner... Jackie was probably the greatest all-around athlete in American history, if I had to pick one."

Wow, Craig B., that’s quite a claim for Jackie! He was indeed very, very good. (I actually saw him play a few times: he was often playing first base then, at the start of his major-league career.) I have immense respect and admiration for him, as a player and as a man; but .... “greatest all-round athlete in American history”? Not that we could ever decide that, of course; but I’m not even sure he was the greatest of his own time. Remember Bob Matthias? And then there’s Jim Thorpe. Maybe, just maybe, you are yourself conflating the moral and the athletic qualities we remember Robinson for? But that’s how legends grow, isn’t it? And myths.

I have troubles with Alomar and his act... which is a shame because for the longest time I idolized him..

but the good parts included those one handed deflections to Olerud on the hot grounders to his left... and his bat... he was moved down in the order to 3rd for a bit and he drove in more runs, then he was moved up to first and got on base more... and I realized he was capable of modifying his game to suit the demands put on him.... at the time I thought that if Joe had gone down, Robbie could have pulled out a power swing hit 4th as easily as anyone.

Which game was it in 1991 where Robbie made the unbelievable catch running into centerfield? I clearly remember that catch being used over and over again in Jays advertising and highlights of the year. It was just one of the many early highlights that were used to define how special Alomar was when he arrived here, along with how he would pivot and throw on the run, turn double plays and flash smiles.

Sadly, I tried to find some kind of Alomar footage on YouTube and this was all I could find.

For a bit of a laugh, or gag, see "Robbie's MySpace page" at www.myspace.com/frozenfruitpunch .

Game six in Atlanta,  Robbie crossed the plate in extras and did a mock tomahawk chop as he scored the winning run

Had the suspension been served immediately and Alomar apologized, I think he would have been forgiven more quickly. There would have been an air of fairplay: Yes, you committed an offence, but you paid for it. Instead we got the "star athlete weasels out of his just punishment because the big game is more important." That sort of thing generally leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Rather like Kenny Rogers pitching in the All-Star game after wailing on a cameraman. I'd love to see MLB adopt a policy of "you can appeal the suspension, but you might get MORE games if you do." Of course, the union will never agree to anything of the sort, but it's nice to dream.

Jeez I'd swear management may never agree to such a proposal either what with revenue and success on the line.

Why do you feel like this was primarily the responsibilty of the union? My guess this is simply cultural conditioning and stereotyping.

 

Actually, Lefty, I didn't fault the union, but MLB's suspension/appeal process. It's kind of goofy that you can appeal a suspension and keep on playing and that players do this regardless of the infraction.

Alomar was suspended for 5 games, which is awfully light for spitting in someone's face.

The suspension was appealed. Never mind the video evidence. Never mind the universal criticism of the suspension being too light in the first place. The appeal wasn't filed due to extenuating circumstances or because the suspension was unjust, but simply so that Alomar could continue to play and because there is no downside or risk to making such an appeal.

An appeal process is ideally supposed to guard against injustice or a rush to judgement. This was used as a loophole to keep a star player on the field.

I suggested that I'd like to see a system under which suspensions could be appealed, but that under that process, they would be thoroughly reviewed and could also be lengthened, as a deterrent to automatic appeals. This is somewhat akin to university professors who will agree to re-mark a paper, but with the warning that your mark might go up or down, thus cutting off 99% of people who would resubmit just for the hell of it.

I think that kind of system would eliminate frivolous appeals. 

I am skeptical that the player's union would agree to such a system and I doubt it's something that MLB can impose unilaterally, thus my union comment. I do think owners would be more agreeable to such a concept because most wouldn't assume that it would affect their star players during a pennant race.

There were other problems with the suspension, in that it did not include playoff games and that Alomar ended up serving it the following April. MLB's handling of the situation caused a firestorm at the time, and the umps threatened to strike. That raised the profile of the incident, and the lingering suspension dragged the story out more than if Alomar had simply served the suspension immediately.

 

The appeal wasn't filed due to extenuating circumstances or because the suspension was unjust, but simply so that Alomar could continue to play

As if there was a chance in hell that the Orioles would willingly go into a post-season series minus their best player without at least trying to avoid it. Of course there was an appeal. It would have been a betrayal of the other Baltimore players and the Baltimore fans not to appeal.

Alomar was ejected from the Friday night game. He played in the day game on Saturday. He didn't play in the Sunday season finale. I don't know when the suspension was actually handed down, but obviously it was going to be appealed. And the suspension should have been upheld, as it was, (if not increased.)  And the suspension should have been applied to the very next games on the schedule, which very regrettably it wasn't. Those were playoff games, as it happened, but c'est la vie.

Jackie could do more than Jim Thorpe, actually, or Bob Mathias.  He was a small man and wouldn't have exceeded the strength feats of Jim Thorpe, but he was a much better games player - a better football player (as good as Thorpe was) and obviously a far, far greater baseball player.  He also was a better runner and jumper - maybe not against his peers, but certainly against the clock and the tape measure.  Jim Thorpe also wasn't a basketball player of note, but Jackie was generally considered easily good enough to play professional basketball were it not for Jim Crow.

Decathletes are certainly excellent all-around athletes, and Mathias was a fine decathlete, but the decathlon is a limited test of an athlete because it's three field strength events, six running and jumping events, plus a 1500m run that really most decathletes are lousy at.  Mathias was also a good games player, good enough to start at fullback for a team that won the Rose Bowl, but he wasn't a patch on a Jackie Robinson as a football player - Jackie was a legendary runner, a skill player, and also a quarterback, where Mathias wasn't as multitalented, though he was good.  Mathias also wasn't as good a long jumper as Jackie was (Jackie's PB was 25-6 where Mathias's PB was "only" 24-5) indicating that even though track was Mathias's best sport, and Jackie's fourth (or third) best, Jackie was still better than Mathias at at least one core event.

So no, I don't think I'm conflating Jackie Robinson's moral excellence with his athletic excellence; although my hero-worship for him may lead me to see some of his actions as a *person* with rose-colored glasses (and with Jackie, sometimes you need that) I don't think it affects my assessment of him as a player or athlete.  I just think that his variety of skills was unmatched by any other player prior to the modern era of hyperspecialization... with maybe one exception (Martin Dihigo), but Robinson was better than even Dihigo was.

Robinson was a great athlete and a great baseball player. The two things regularly have little in common, as great athletes from Jim Thorpe to Michael Jordan will tell you.

Robinson and Wagner is an interesting thought. We often hear that a player could play anywhere on the diamond and be outstanding - Robinson and Wagner (and Dihigo, of course) actually did. As great as Robinson was (and I agree that the three great second basemen ever are Collins, Morgan, and Robinson), I don't think he was as dominant in his own time as Wagner was in his.

Robinson was a great athlete and a great baseball player. The two things regularly have little in common, as great athletes from Jim Thorpe to Michael Jordan will tell you.

Or, from the other direction, as John Kruk or MIckey Lolich could tell you!

Robinson was a great athlete and a great baseball player. The two things regularly have little in common, as great athletes from Jim Thorpe to Michael Jordan will tell you.

I hear this argument a lot, but I don't really buy it.  Baseball is making athletic demands, just different ones from football and basketball, which makes it an excellent added test of an athlete's all-around athleticism.  John Kruk had a good line when he said he wasn't an athlete, but he was whether he wanted to be or not. 

That said, I'm the last guy to think that non-baseball athletic skills will translate into baseball skills.  I'm eternally skeptical of football players who decide they want to play baseball, and the teams who draft them.