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Awards Wells' Glove is Gold Again

According to wire reports (like this one on ESPN.com), Blue Jays CF Vernon Wells has won another Rawlings Gold Glove Award.

And it's true that an OF of Wells, Torii Hunter and Ichiro! would be mighty fine to watch (though, where have you gone, Gary Matthews Jr.?) but that double play combination of Mark Grudzielanek and Derek Jeter might call the award's premise into some question ...

Your thoughts?



Posted by Mick Doherty on Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 05:30 PM EST.
Wells' Glove is Gold Again | 23 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
js_magloire - Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:08 PM EST (#157450) #
Here is a list from ESPN of the centre fielders fielding stats. Wells was 2nd last in fielding percentage out of qualifiers (4 errors), and 2nd in errors made. Ten guys had more assists. He was also last in Range Factor, and strangely 2nd in Zone Rating. Clearly, several other candidates should have won. This drives up his market value to dumb GM's who look at meaningless things doesn't it? Grumble, grumble. I think a guy like Grady Sizemore, who had more assists, less errors and a better Range Factor should have won, though I've never really seen his play in the outfield.

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Ron - Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:08 PM EST (#157451) #
These selections just prove Gold Gloves are handed out mostly by reputation.

Wells and Hunter both didn't deserve a gold glove this season. Matthews Jr. and Crawford are more deserving selections.

Wow Jeter has now won 3 years in a row. I think Jeter is a solid defender but I don't believe he has been the best in the AL the past 3 seasons. A-Gon deserved to win this season.


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js_magloire - Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:11 PM EST (#157452) #
Wow didn't know any 3 outfielders could have won....then there's probably a whole bunch more who could have been more deserving then Wells.
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Rob - Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:20 PM EST (#157453) #
Speaking of awards...

It's time to vote for Tom Cheek again. Last year, a bunch of us managed to vote nearly every day to get Tom on the final ballot for the Ford C. Frick Award. So, I trust everyone here is going to vote once every day for Tom (and only Tom!) this year as well.
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VBF - Thursday, November 02 2006 @ 06:29 PM EST (#157454) #

Could we maybe have a thread and like last year, post everytime we make a vote?

If we continually put out the same effort each year he will win.

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ayjackson - Friday, November 03 2006 @ 09:55 AM EST (#157463) #

So what's the difference between zone rating and range factor?

As for outfield assists, they're a waste of time as a measure of defence.  Everybody knows Vernon has a great arm.  I think he was recognized in a player poll this year for having one of the top arms in baseball.  The fact that Cat had more outfield assists than Vernon and Alexis doesn't mean he's a better defender.  Bottom line is we don't need a stat to measure the quality of the outfielder's arm - it's plain to see through observation and reputation.

But I agree, that gold gloves aren't given to the best defender at the position.  Didn't Abreu win one last year?

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Mike Green - Friday, November 03 2006 @ 10:47 AM EST (#157467) #
Range Factor is essentially a counting stat for defenders.  It counts the number of plays made by a defender per 9 innings.  Zone Rating is essentially a rate stat for defenders. Plays made are divided by opportunities.  It is not a simple matter to count defender opportunities; Chris Dial has some articles on the topic at www.baseballthinkfactory.org in the "Dialed In" blog if you want to get started learning more. 
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ayjackson - Friday, November 03 2006 @ 01:49 PM EST (#157472) #

Chris Dial's defence analysis suggests that Vernon is indeed one of the best centerfielders in baseball.  It also shows Alexis Rios as the best rightfielder and Aaron Hill as the best 2Bman(AL).

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Mike Green - Friday, November 03 2006 @ 01:58 PM EST (#157474) #
Those are 2006 figures only.  Over the 2005-06 period, Rios is right there with Ichiro as the highest-rated right-fielder in the AL; Wells is modestly above average, and Hill has been excellent.  Interestingly, the Mariners are apparently planning to moving Ichiro to center.
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John Northey - Friday, November 03 2006 @ 02:07 PM EST (#157476) #
I feel strongly the vote for gold glove should shift from managers and coaches to advance scouts.  They make a living figuring out who has holes in their game and who doesn't, most teams employee at least one so why not?  Odds are they wouldn't give one to a DH at least.
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Twilight - Friday, November 03 2006 @ 05:56 PM EST (#157489) #
In terms of assists, I think that when a player gets a reputation for getting to the ball quickly and having an absolute cannon of an arm, fewer players will try to run on him and he will thus have fewer assist opportunities as well. If some rookie has the ball, players are more likely to take a chance than if Guererro had the ball.
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JB21 - Saturday, November 04 2006 @ 04:55 PM EST (#157498) #
That is true, but Wells does not have that rotation, players run on him all the time. Rios is a good example of what you mentioned.
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Joanna - Saturday, November 04 2006 @ 10:46 PM EST (#157500) #
Big ups to Orlando Hudson on winning his second Gold Glove.  I'm glad to see his skills translated over to the NL.        WAY TO GO, ODOG!!!!!!!!!!
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Mike D - Sunday, November 05 2006 @ 11:50 PM EST (#157529) #
For what it's worth, John Dewan thought that the 2005 numbers understated Vernon's defensive ability.  Although Wells scored only a +1 in the Fielding Bible, Dewan believed Vernon nevertheless played brilliantly in 2005 and he made pains to point out that it was Aaron Rowand's superlative defence, and not any downturn in Wells' glovework, that led him to suggest that Wells didn't deserve his '05 Gold Glove.  Dewan evaluates D more comprehensively than anyone else, in my view.

I think that if the numbers show  "modestly above average" performance by Wells, it shows that we have yet to completely fine-tune defensive metrics.  It does not compel a sweeping judgment that Wells can't play CF as well as many neutral, thoughtful observers say he can.

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Mike Green - Monday, November 06 2006 @ 09:13 AM EST (#157534) #
Objectively, Wells' defence scores just above average on most metrics over the long haul.  Subjectively, among Blue Jay centerfielders whom I have seen over and over again, he ranks about even with Moseby and light years behind Devon White. His strength is plugging the gap; his weakness is the ball in front of him.

It might be particularly difficult to measure Wells' defence last year.  With Johnson in left and Rios in right quite a bit of the time, you have three outfielders who could potentially play centerfield.  That was also true of Bell, Barfield and Moseby in 84-85.



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AWeb - Monday, November 06 2006 @ 10:28 AM EST (#157537) #

I ask in all seriousness, because I don't really remember outfield defense that well from the early 80's, but George Bell may have been good enough to play Centre? Really? He must have been a lot faster/better in the OF than I remember.

Wells this year did not seem as good to me in the field as years past, but compared to the divisional foes, I think he provides that much more of a comparative advantage. Damon can run a ball down decently, but can't throw at all (worst arm ever?).  Coco Crisp was terrible, Patterson was very good (but didn't hit well), Baldelli is pretty average.

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Chuck - Monday, November 06 2006 @ 10:48 AM EST (#157539) #
I think that when it comes to subjectively evaluating anyone's defense, the Lake Wobegon effect kicks in.  The "average" bar is so high for major league center fielders and shortstops that almost everyone is considered above average.

That Wells is only truly "above average" for a major league center fielder is less a disparaging critique of his ability than it is a commentary on the athleticism of the typical major leaguer at the position.

Wells is a big fellow (and seemingly getting bigger) and while he may go the Puckett/Griffey route and continue playing center field long after it is truly appopriate, a shift to RF at, say, age 30 might not be a bad idea. Still, a player's defensive rep takes a long time to catch up to the truth and I'm sure that if Wells wants to continue playing CF indefinitely, he will probably encounter little resistance.

Without a seamless segue.... Damon's arm was mentioned. Is it the worst ever? I would argue that that Bernie Williams' arm of the past 5 years is almost certainly  weaker. And another Yankee center fielder, Mickey Rivers, probably had a weaker arm than Damon's.

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Mike D - Monday, November 06 2006 @ 11:25 AM EST (#157540) #

But Chuck, the likes of Dewan don't think everyone is above average.  He had him as the #3 CF in the AL heading into '06, behind Hunter and narrowly behind Kotsay.

All that being said, in my subjective opinion, Vernon's glove has declined somewhat.  I did not think he was generally superb in centre this year (though he made some sensational catches), and his great strength -- going back on balls -- was less dazzling than in '04 and '05.

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Mike Green - Monday, November 06 2006 @ 11:49 AM EST (#157544) #
I know what you mean, AWeb.  Bell was quick when he was young.  He went 11-2 and 21-6 attempting stolen bases in 84-85.  He is listed at 6'1", 190 lbs by Baseball Reference, which undoubtedly would be a surprise to anyone who first saw him in 1987 or later.
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Chuck - Monday, November 06 2006 @ 01:27 PM EST (#157550) #
But Chuck, the likes of Dewan don't think everyone is above average.

I should have been clearer. I wasn't commenting on Dewan's evaluations. Whatever one's feelings are about his methodology, he is attempting to be objective and has no problems calling average average.

I was commenting on people's general subjective comments.  A shortstop pulls off a dazzling play and people have no problems believing that shortstop to be "above average". Thing is, while the play may well have been difficult for most people on the planet and even most non-shortstops in MLB, the level at which the average shortstop fields is so high that a dazzling play is really often just the norm.  Calling a player average is hardly disparaging, but the word carries with it such a negative conotation that its usage is unintentionally loaded.

Saying that Vernon Wells ranks 11th, say, out of the 30 major league center fielders, means that he is above average. This is praise. But calling Vernon Wells above average and not exceptional is mistakenly considered an insult by many.
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Jordan - Tuesday, November 07 2006 @ 01:27 PM EST (#157585) #

Damon's arm was mentioned. Is it the worst ever?

In the early '80s, Kansas City's Willie Wilson could've used a cutoff man in shallow center. He sure could cover ground, though.

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Mike Green - Tuesday, November 07 2006 @ 01:33 PM EST (#157586) #
Mickey Rivers' "arm" was a good source of humour back in the day.  Some guys hit dying quails; other guys throw 'em.
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Wells' Glove is Gold Again | 23 comments | Create New Account
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