Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Why do I hate the Tigers so much?

I wasn't aware of anything in 1987. Bill Madlock means as much to me as Benjamin Matlock. Is it the Worst Opening Series Ever, watching the fresh-off-86-wins Blue Jays lose to a team that made the 1962 Mets look good? Maybe Bobby F. Higginson? No, it has to be Rondell White making diving catch after diving catch in MVP 2004, which caused me to stop playing the game immediately and forever.

Wait, maybe it's this:


Well, whatever it is, I couldn't stand them so much last time they were in Toronto, I laid the Curse of Hunter S. Thompson on Alan Trammell. Tram, you see, was finally managing a decent team after one year of Bad Detroit and another year of Slightly Less Bad Detroit. Sure, they lost one fewer game in 2005 than 2004, but with Chris Shelton, Placido Polanco, Carlos Guillen and Jeremy Bonderman all doing well on the right side of 30 (or, in Bonderman's case, about 13 years old), to say nothing of their prospects on the way, there was reason for optimism. Trammell is not managing the hot Tigers this year, so he gets none of the 2003 Tony Pena Mojo. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, but he ends up watching at home while Jim Leyland wakes up one morning and finds out the Tigers had the best record in baseball entering this series.

Ah, this series. I was really hoping for a Toronto Sweep (wins on Friday and Saturday and a loss on Sunday). Detroit isn't that good. Anyone can beat up on the Royals, Twins and Mariners. People in that city should be aware of the Comedy Central phenomenon by now – how did those Red Wings do against the non-Columbus and non-Chicago teams come playoff time? Is this when the Tigers get declawed?

Then Gustavo Chacin hurt himself like the guy in the Ford Mustang ad who tries to jump through the window. As if this bullpen needed more work. Sure enough, Scott Downs comes out in the fourth and is replaced by Pete Walker.

Begin sidebar. One of my friends, who knows very little about baseball, has only seen a few games that do not feature Walker. I asked for his scouting report last week and he replied, “He looks like such a dope, always licking himself.” Walker is now on the disabled list. There's got to be a connection there. End sidebar.

As I sat there on Friday night watching Jason Frasor doing what Jason Frasor does, I realized, frankly, how boring this game was. I think the crowd at the Rogers Centre fell asleep. Shea Hillenbrand probably woke up 80% of the fans in attendance with his second-deck blast, then Aaron Hill woke even more of them up with the single, and everyone got into it when Alex Rios came off the bench to hit for Placeholder Alfonzo, representing the tying run. What happened next?

Well, you know the rest. That's the Todd Jones I remember. And I promise I was not planning to do this when I linked to Frasor's chart above:


So that was Friday. On Saturday, Jones was not pitching like the Red Sox bullpen from Canada Day 2005. That's the last time I mock someone by pointing out their ridiculous facial hair. Also on Saturday, Ted Lilly did what only Ted Lilly can do, and pitched well despite giving up five runs. The day after a boring game, we have a depressing game, as one can never really enjoy a Lilly start. Jamie Campbell and Darrin Fletcher were praising Lilly to no end, however.

Okay, how about Sunday? Two out of three would have been nice to take from the team with the best KC-inflated record in baseball, wouldn't it?

Eh, maybe not. Pudge had his own ideas and the bullpen went along with him. That's the last time I mock someone by pointing out their mysterious weight fluctuations.

But Taubenheim was doing well enough for a rookie and the bullpen certainly didn't need more work – John Gibbons continues to baffle me over the last month or so. If you don't think you can come back and score off Nate Robertson, how can you possibly be in serious playoff contention? Francisco Rosario wasn't in there very long, either. Maybe when the relievers suck, it's not a good idea to bring in every last one of them. Four pitchers used when three innings remain; those are two numbers I do not like. The other numbers I don't like belong to the pitchers used yesterday: 5.68, 5.51, 8.18, 7.02, 5.95, 6.31.

And what are the odds? The day I started the Alfonzo Watch, Placeholder had two hits including an RBI double to raise his OPS over .350. That's nice and all, but two hits in a blowout loss are next to meaningless. Pujols he ain't.

However, despite the current state of the second base position and pitching staff, do not despair, Blue Jay fans! Keep in mind that today is June 12. Why? Well, on June 12 last year, the Jays had just finished a terrible series in Houston and stood at 31-32. Oddly enough, they finished with 80 wins, a whopping 0.29 more than they were on pace for at the time.

And my apologies for bringing up the Season From Hell, but if this were June 12, 2004, we'd be talking about this game instead.

So things could be much, much, much, much, much worse.

Jays vs. Tigers: Things Aren't That Bad | 43 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Magpie - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 08:24 AM EDT (#148705) #
we'd be talking about this game instead.

So young and yet so cruel...
Pistol - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 08:50 AM EDT (#148707) #
Russ Adams was removed from yesterday's Syracuse game because the Jays have called him back up.
Jordan - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#148708) #

My chief observation from the weekend is that the Tigers have the best record in baseball (and, by the way, the best road record -- they're only 4 games above .500 at home) at least partly on merit. I too thought they were largely a creature of a soft schedule, but they can pitch, they can hit a little, and they responded to that catastrophic 8th inning Friday night with two solid wins. They'll slow down eventually and significantly, but there's more to that team than smoke and mirrors.

The Blue Jays give off another vibe entirely. I don't mean to be morose -- there's still 100 games left, Burnett has yet to contribute, and Adams' return should help settle the infield. They're within a solid six-game winning streak of the divison lead. But I just don't see that kind of streak in the offing, because they don't have a contender's pitching staff. The rotation is a shambles and the relievers are not nearly as strong this year as they were in '05 -- a flaw that has been doubly taxed by too many five-and-two-thirds-innings starts. Burnett could be a ten or a zero when he returns. And say it quietly, but Halladay, while very solid, has not been his normal dominant self (his K/9, which hasn't been below 6 since 2000, is at 4.5).

The pitching is far less likely to suddenly rebound and become a strength than the hitting is likely to cool off. If the batters do fall back to their career lines (and at least haf will) without a corresponding improvement from the pitchers, then the Jays could be mired in a losing streak before you know it.  And here comes interleague play, which has always baffled the Jays. From this perspective, this is a pretty decent and potentially dangerous team, but only a fringe playoff contender.

Mike Green - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#148713) #
I am actually much more optimistic now than I was at the start of the season.  Two very good things have happened.  Rios has developed, and Hill is firmly entrenched where he belongs at shortstop. While Rios is unlikely to continue slugging .600, Hill will, I am confident, open many eyes over the remainder of the season.

As for the pitching, the talent is actually within the organization but some gutsy decisions need to be made for it to work.  The record of post-TJ starters with a power repertoire over the medium term is very poor.  The ones who have succeeded- Tommy John and David Wells being the prime examples- have gotten by on guile.  I am going to be writing on this at much greater length before Burnett returns, but the most likely way that Burnett will actually succeed, given his characteristics as a pitcher and as a person, is as a flame-throwing set-up man a la John Smoltz.  I know that a rotation of Halladay, Janssen, Lilly, Marcum and Towers/Downs does not inspire backflips, but with this offence and with decent bullpen support, it would be just fine.  The first step for the organization is to recognize that Marcum is a better pitcher than Taubenheim.
Mike Green - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#148720) #
Things are truly copacetic on the long-term front for the Tigers.  Bonderman, Verlander and Zumaya are fine young pitchers, and Maybin and Andrew Miller are two very nice young prospects.  Humberto Sanchez, however, was not on my radar, and they've got a couple of other pitchers, like Wil Ledezma, who could contribute as well.  Sanchez is an extreme power pitcher (does this sound familiar?), who appears to have be gaining control of the strike zone over the last couple of years.

The investment in Pudge Rodriguez, much criticized at the time, has turned out to be a very wise one indeed.
Geoff - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#148722) #
I remember that game, but something comes to mind when looking at the boxscore: there really was a Howie Clark who played for the Jays. I thought for sure I had imagined him. He even had an inning at shortstop during a fine John Wasdin start for the Jays, later picked up by the indomitable Jason Kershner.


Mick Doherty - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#148723) #
Wasdin has been great in AAA this year and looked terrific last night for the Rangers against the Red Sox. He left in the sixth inning after being hit by a line drive on his pitching hand. No "Waybacks" for the Sox against the veteran yesterday!
Jordan - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#148724) #

I guess smiley faces don't have the impact that they used to. Let me try again, more clearly.

Yes, a six-game winning streak is possible with a rotation of Halladay, Lilly, Janssen, Towers and Taubenheim, assuming the team throws enough runs per game on the board every night. That would be 3 runs for Halladay, 4 for Jannsen, 5 for Lilly, and that's doable. Then you need 6 for Taubenheim and 10 for Towers -- and that's assuming all those guys go 9 innings, because otherwise you're into a relief corps that, apart from BJ Ryan, sports a median ERA of 5.51, and also assuming flawless defence night after night. And if it's that easy, why hasn't it happened yet? Why hasn't this team put together even 4 wins in a row more than once?

What you're describing isn't a realistic assessment of what this pitching staff can reasonably deliver. You're describing a fan's best-case-scenario. If this were the Yankees rotation we were talking about, you'd be salivating over the chance to light up an inconsistent Lilly with the home run ball, knock around one rookie in Jannsen who hasn't faced tough opposition, another rookie in Taubenheim who hasn't gone more than 5 innings yet, and a batting-practice tosser in Towers. But because it's your team's rotation, you cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Could that rotation win six in a row? Yeah, it could. But it's a better bet they could lose six in a row, and that's what will happen if even half the lineup slumps (unless you think 7 separate hitters will continue to post 900+ OPS the rest of the way). Engage in all the wishful thinking you like, but don't wait around by the phone for that hot streak.

Jim - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#148728) #

Maybin

While I'm happy the Blue Jays finally didn't shy away from a high school player in the draft, it would have been nice to see them decide a year earlier.  Romero over Maybin was a debacle at the time, and it's even worse now. 

TA - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#148731) #

While I'm happy the Blue Jays finally didn't shy away from a high school player in the draft, it would have been nice to see them decide a year earlier.  Romero over Maybin was a debacle at the time, and it's even worse now.


Cameron Maybin (A) (Age 19):

OF .330 30 112 17 37 8 4 2 25 14 32 7 1 .411 .527 .938 0 1 1 1 2

Ricky Romero(High A) (Age 20):

1 0 2.50 7 7 0 39.2 33 11 11 3 9 41 0 .228 158 0 0 ---

While Maybin is putting up some sweet numbers I'd hardly call Romero's selection a "debacle". Looks like two very promising players with many years to go before we can decide between to two.

Ron - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#148732) #
I would like to know why Tallet was called up instead of League. While I'm sure Tallet gets sent down once AJ comes back, League deserved a look.

I don't buy the excuse that Tallet was called because he's a long man. Downs already has that role and Rosario can go 2 innings if needed. Tallet isn't even a prospect while League is. A very puzzling move indeed.



Mike Green - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#148733) #
I agree with TA.  It's very common for 6th choices not to make the majors at all, and there is no indication that Ricky Romero won't make it.  "Debacle" is way too strong.

Dave Dombrowski has done an excellent job with the Tigers, as he did with the Marlins and Expos before that. I expect them to be contenders for years, after being as low as low can be.  Full credit to him.

Mike Green - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#148734) #
League has recently been moved into the closer's role in Syracuse.  The organization may wish him to adapt to that high-stress position at triple A before moving on to a significant role with the major league club. Given his earlier struggles, that would make sense to me.
Jim - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#148736) #

'While Maybin is putting up some sweet numbers I'd hardly call Romero's selection a "debacle". '

I was lucky enough to see them both in Spring Training this year, I feel they made a horrible decision.

If you've followed the Blue Jays system at all in the Riccardi era, I don't know why you would look at anyone's stats before AA.  Across the board the Jays have had dominant performances from players through Dunedin who don't project to be major league assets.   Not that Romero doesn't have a chance to contribute, but if you polled scouts and executives, it wouldn't even be a contest as to who they would prefer.

Ryan Day - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#148737) #

I would like to know why Tallet was called up instead of League. While I'm sure Tallet gets sent down once AJ comes back, League deserved a look.

  I wonder if the answer to this isn't the same one to Mike Green's preference of Marcum to Taubenheim: Perhaps Tallet/Taubenheim are up precisely because the organization thinks more highly of them than Marcum, League, or McGowan, and that the former are being thrown into the fire because the Jays want the latter to get more experience in AAA and be better prepared for their eventual, more permanent promotions. League in particular has suffered from a bit too much promotion, so it's a good idea to make sure he's got his head and his delivery straight before bringing him up.

  I do wonder if we'll see Ben Weber get called up, though: Nice minor league numbers to go along with major league success.  He's not on the 40-man, but it's not like you can't make room by tossing Alfonzo or Figueroa.

Jim - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#148738) #

Ricky Romero(High A) (Age 20):

Cameron Maybin (A) (Age 19):

A little disingenous with the ages.

Ricky Romero born 11-6-1984.  That's 21.5

Cameron Maybin born 4-4-1987 That's 19.2

Romero is more then 2 years older, not the 1 year spread you are trying to show. 

 

Jonny German - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#148739) #

if you polled scouts and executives, it wouldn't even be a contest as to who they would prefer.

Oh? John Sickels is a pretty well-informed guy when it comes to prospects, and he rated Romero a B+ coming into this season, Maybin a B. Are we to believe that Sickels is an exception?

Jim - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#148740) #

coming into this season

So we should ignore what we've seen since then?

Is John Sickels a scout or an executive?  He's a guy who reads a lot and puts together composite opinions of other sources.  I like his site and I think he's a good writer, but it's not like he's going to work for a major league organization anytime soon.

Mike Green - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#148742) #
Many Bauxites expressed a preference for Maybin, or even Tulowitzki, over Ricky Romero at the time of the draft.  But, that does not mean that Romero was a poor selection.  One of the factors that went into the selection was closeness to the majors.  The perception, which may turn out to be accurate, was that Romero was much closer to the majors than Maybin and that the Jays had a fairly narrow window of opportunity beginning in 2006. 

My comments about the long-term state of the Tigers were not intended to provoke another dispute about the Ricciardi drafting strategy.  Must every positive be turned into a negative?

Jonny German - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#148744) #

Is John Sickels a scout or an executive?

Nope. He's a guy that is employed full time in following prospects, a guy that attends dozens of minor league games every year. Who are you?

dan gordon - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#148745) #

I would expect that Towers will be called up on Wednesday to take Chacin's spot in the rotation, and Tallet will be returned to Syracuse.  I agree with not bringing League up for such a short stint.  Let him get his work in at AAA - I expect he will be a permanent part of the bullpen by late this year or next year at the latest.

In other news, along with Adams' being called up, McDonald has been activated off the DL, Figueroa has been outrighted to Syracuse, and Alfonzo has been released.  Opens up a couple of spots on the 40 man, one of which would be needed for Towers.

Rob - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#148762) #
And say it quietly, but Halladay, while very solid, has not been his normal dominant self (his K/9, which hasn't been below 6 since 2000, is at 4.5).

I think someone said that about a week ago. No word on if he was quiet when he said it.
Gitz - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#148765) #
Nope. [Sickels is] a guy that is employed full time in following prospects, a guy that attends dozens of minor league games every year. Who are you?

Now this I am unsure of. My impression is that Sickels has a different "real" job and that his handbook, Web site, etc. were his ancillary incomes. Not that it matters to your point, not that anybody's points matter, but I am unsure of what Sickels "does," similar to Mel Kiper Jr. -- does this man REALLY make a living being wrong 74 percent of the time? (Not that I am saying that Sickels is wrong xx percent of the time.)
Gitz - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#148766) #
If this were the Yankees rotation we were talking about, you'd be salivating over the chance to light up an inconsistent Lilly with the home run ball, knock around one rookie in Jannsen who hasn't faced tough opposition, another rookie in Taubenheim who hasn't gone more than 5 innings yet, and a batting-practice tosser in Towers. But because it's your team's rotation, you cross your fingers and hope for the best.

This is an excellent point, Jordan. One of the problems with being a fan -- indeed perhaps the central problem -- is how difficult it is to analyse objectively your team. Either they're the Best Team Ever or they can't hit, field, or pitch better than my child's little league team.
Mike D - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#148769) #

Well said as always, Gitz.  Compounding the problem with objectivity is the navel-gazing element, in which every loss is Somebody's Fault, as if there isn't a highly skilled opponent trying its best to defeat the home team.  Believe me, I thought Speier was lousy in Thursday's defeat at Baltimore.  But throughout that entire game, some excellent veteran Oriole hitters put superb swings on the ball.  When you throw a pitch knee-high on the outside corner with movement, and the hitter nevertheless pokes it the other way for a single, there's just not much anybody can do.

My take, for what it's worth?  The Jays have too much offensive talent 1 through 12 in their hitting depth chart to ever be irrelevant this season.  But they need to reinforce the 'pen or stretch out their starters more if they want to thrive.  The declining bullpen (save for B.J.) is being exposed as either subpar or tired, and either way, the club needs to act.

TA - Monday, June 12 2006 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#148770) #

A little disingenous with the ages. Ricky Romero born 11-6-1984.  That's 21. Cameron Maybin born 4-4-1987 That's 19.2.
Romero is more then 2 years older, not the 1 year spread you are trying to show.

Oops! More than a little disingenuous I'd say. Widely inaccurate is more like it. Sorry about that. A brain cramp while quickly finding a few stats. Apologies.

Across the board the Jays have had dominant performances from players through Dunedin who don't project to be major league assets.

Yet they did also have some players do well in Dunedin that have become major league assets (Adams, Hill, Jackson, Peterson, Bush, etc.). Romero has put up good numbers at a younger age than the rest of the standouts in the Ricciardi era.

I mean, at the time I would have liked the Jays to have selected Maybin (thanks to the draft coverage provided by Pistol, Mike Green, Jordan, and others at BB), and those certainly are some tasty statlines that he's putting up. That said, I am not dissapointed with having an R. Romero in the system.  In a perfect world the Jays would have both!

While you may have seen both players play, and I don't doubt that you have an intellegent perspective (although I would mention that Romero could have been hurting this spring), I'm sure Ricciardi and Co. have seen both play more than any of us. In short, let's wait and see.

Jays vs. Tigers: Things Aren't That Bad | 43 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.