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The Fighting Jays win a wild and crazy one at Fenway as B.J Ryan outduels Papelbon in the ninth.

You have to love B.J Ryan, fine man though he may be I really really wouldn't have wanted to see Batista trotting out there last night, as soon as Ryan John-Wayned his way to the mound I figured the game was won.

Star of The Game: Overbay was 4 for 4 with a couple of runs.

Unsung Hero: McGowan came in to the eighth with the Fenway crowd going nuts, a man on second and no outs. It wasn't a vintage performance by any means as he immediately gave up a Lowell single and a run, but he hung in and gutsed his way through the rest of the Inning to keep the Sox at bay and the game tied.

For the Sox: Manny was being nothing like Manny, but he still went 3 for 4, he seemed quite happy to be lining singles last night and not trying to hit scary, nasty bombs everywhere.

Defensive Play of the Game: A couple stand out. Wells made a beautiful sliding catch on a ball that was dropping in front of him and greatly impressed Rance in the booth in the process. Hinske, back at first in the ninth, made a lovely jumping snag on a rocket from Manny.

Defensive MisPlay of the Game: Zaun had a mini meltdown in the ninth with back-to-back bad plays. First he let Ryan's strikeout pitch to Mohr get away from him and allowed to Mohr to scamper up to first, then trying to atone he threw the ball past the bag at second when Harris was trying to steal second letting him advance to third. Ryan picked him up by striking out Varitek to end the game.

Ouch: Aaron Hill took a nasty Youkilis shot off the chin, but being a Fighting Jay still made the out before checking whether anything was broken.

SOSH: The Sons of Sam Horn is one of the worlds great sources of unintentional comedy, here are a few random snippets from last night:
"Beckett's career has been one big postseason and a .500 record. He may never be anything more."
"The most disappointing aspect of tonight's game was Beckett's performance. He's beginning to remind me of Clement."
"I think my absolute hatred of the blue jays is aproaching yankeesque levels. These ******* ***** have our numbers, its like they know our signs or something. They get away with a balk, alex gonzalez sucks and then they smack Paplebon around. What a game."
"The Blue Jays are really ******* me off. I used to kinda like them, but now they **** me off. When did they decide to get competitive and ****?"
"This Mike Lowell guy is a stud and should be mated with the finest of females!!!"
"Alex Gonzalez, meet the first base coach. Not sure if you've met before."

WWJP: Was there one? Was anything interesting forthcoming?

Boxscore: here

Today's Game: Josh Towers (10.45 ERA) takes on Matt Clement (6.14 ERA), if you're scoring this one at home you might need an extra pencil.



Jays 7 - Red Sox 6 | 54 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
JZK - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 09:12 AM EDT (#146309) #
Being a diehard Jays fan living in the Boston area, it was nice to see yet another win by the Jays. It was a crazy game, but whenever they needed a big run, the Jays seemed to get it. Despite his miscues, Alex "Dios Mios" Rios looked pretty good at the plate. Overbay had a huge game. But how great was Ryan in the ninth? There's a confidence at the end of games this year that just hasn't been around for years. Now if Towers could actually win a game...
Chuck - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#146312) #
I only watched parts of the game and only caught a bit of the online chat. I have some questions that may have been answered.

Why on earth did Rios attempt to steal third, especially with none out? Does he have the green light? I would imagine that red lights will be posted in all such future cases. BTW, as per usual, he seemed safe, getting called out simply because the ball beat him to the bag.

With a slew of RHB coming up, McGowan figured to come into the 8th regardless of what Varitek did. That said, why did Gibbons elect to stay with Schoeneweis to face Varitek? Has he forgotten about Schoeneweis' little problem with RHB? And why was Speier pulled after just two outs? I would have expected last night to be a case of Speier and Ryan combining to pitch 3 innings, especially with Towers starting today and those two probably not being needed.

In the top of the 9th, Papelbon threw a total of three pitches to three consecutive batters who each swung at the first pitch: Adams, Hinske and Rios. Adams doubled, Hinske popped out feably and Rios grounded out sharply.  While I seem to want it both ways (be aggressive on the first pitch, be patient and wait for a mistake), I can't help but feel frustrated by Hinske's AB. With men on 2nd and 3rd and only 1 out, he was clearly too excited and just flailed at the first offering.  Rios has been swinging early in the count all season -- and with tremendous success -- so it would be greedy to ask him to continue slugging .700 and show patience at the same time. Still, the Hinske/Rios sequence brought me back to my Expo days in the late 70's and early 80's, when guys like Carter, Parrish and company simply couldn't contain their adrenaline surge in game situations.

Oh, and while I'm criticizing the team that actually won, I hereby give Zaun a pass for both the passed ball and the errant throw to second. He's a smart player who skillfully leverages the relatively modest talent that he has. His blunders were certainly out of character.

On a final note, is McGowan next in line to assume 7th inning duties? With Frasor dispatched, Chulk perhaps next to go and the SS Loogy  hopefully returning to his less-demanding role of 2005, are there any other possibilities?
Gwyn - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#146314) #
Why on earth did Rios attempt to steal third, especially with none out? Does he have the green light? I would imagine that red lights will be posted in all such future cases. BTW, as per usual, he seemed safe, getting called out simply because the ball beat him to the bag.

The online stories this morning are saying it was meant to be a double steal but Cat missed the sign.
Mike Green - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#146317) #

The top of the ninth was a "You Be the Manager" feast.  For those who missed the game, here's the scene.  Papelbon on in a 6-6 game to face scheduled hitters Overbay, Hillenbrand and Zaun, with Adams and Hill to follow. Cat had started the game, and Johnson had entered in his place earlier.

Overbay singles.  Immediately, the Manager has 2 decisions- whether to pinch run for Overbay and whether to pinch-hit for Hillenbrand (who has been hot and had hit a 2 run homer in his previous at-bat).  Gibbons chose to do neither.  After Hillenbrand lined out, Zaun singled on the ground to left (phew).  Adams up.  Do you pinch-run for either Overbay, Zaun or both?  Gibbons chose to pinch-run for Overbay with McDonald, saving Hinske to pinch-hit for Hill.  Adams lined a double down the line, and the run scored easily.

My only comment about Gibbons' decisions is that if you had decided to pinch-run for Overbay with McDonald when he reached second with one out, wouldn't it make sense to do so with Overbay on 1st and nobody out, especially with Hillenbrand (who is prone to ground into DPs) up? 

 

Mike D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#146318) #

Gibbons seems snakebitten with his club's baserunning this season; it seems like every time he sends the runners, the lead man gets gunned down, and every time he does not send the runners, the hitter serves up a DP grounder.

It's hard to know what to do about the problem of double plays, because the Jays have a bunch of hitters who hit the ball sharply and don't run well, which means they not only can't beat the relay throw but also can't break up the pivot with a hard slide (because they simply don't get there in time).   I don't remember the count of the botched double steal, but I remember thinking it wasn't the right call at the time.

What's the solution?

js_magloire - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#146319) #
I think the best play of the game was the 3rd called strike on Varitek. He was like, "what the hell just happened?" I was like, "what the hell just happened?" BJ Ryan seems to work quickly, not waiting for you, and he seems to thrive under the pressure of a big contract (hence the perfect ERA start), which is only good for a confident closer like him.
Excalabur - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#146320) #
I've done up a WP graph for last night's game, and it's certainly a this to look at.  Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to embed images in this post, so y'all will have to wait for someone to clue me in (Bueller?).  I didn't see the game, so going thru the PBP to make up the graph gave me much more insight into what happened. 

As evidenced by some rapid rises and plunges (in the graph you can't see), there's some serious WPA to be had:  Lowell led all players with .372 WPA added, with Pena and Ryan both ahead of Adams.  Note that Ryan gets extra credit for the 'extra' out, as I charged the runner advancing to first to Zaun as well as the throwing error.  Trailers in WPA are Beckett, Loretta, and Papelbon, with Loretta's contribution almost entirely being his GIDP.  (This may not match 'official' numbers provided by others: this is the first time I've tried out WPA calculations.)

Mike D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#146321) #

Pinch-hit Hinske for Shea yesterday, Mike G?  You were really considering that with Adams and Hill providing pinch-hitting possibilities shortly thereafter?  Three weeks ago, maybe.  But considering how they're hitting of late, that would be insane.  Shea's been clobbering righthanded pitchers not named Mussina.

Chuck - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#146322) #
BJ Ryan seems to work quickly, not waiting for you

It certainly appears that Ryan throws in the mid-90's, rather than the high 80's, and he has his deception, and unorthodox arm angle, to thank. You're right, he doesn't wait for you. He's now logged around 400 major league innings, and hitters still continue to be thrown off by his approach. I'm not suggesting that they'll eventually wise up. I'm just amazed, and thankful, that the act keeps working,
Mike Green - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:13 AM EDT (#146323) #

Mike D,

Apparently on the Rios CS, he and Cat were supposed to be on a double steal rather than an H and R. With Wells batting, I guess Gibbons was trying to inject the element of surprise.  Knowing the players, I'd rather do that with Hill or Adams on the front end, even though Alex could probably outrun either in a foot-race quite easily.

Mike D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#146324) #
I agree with you there, Mike G.  For sure.
Pistol - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#146325) #

When Speier and the SS Loogy were used in the 7th I thought Ryan might be used for a 2 inning save as the bullpen didn't have anyone reliable left and thinking Gibbons might try to go all out to try and get one win when it was in reach (even if it sacrificed today's game).  So I was surprised to see McGowan come into the game in a big spot.  While he gave up the RBI single to Lowell it was a rather weak ground ball that found a hole up the middle.  Then the other hit was a blooper and no one else made good contact.

Here's an interesting combination of stats....the Jays have the fewest number of strikeouts in the AL, but lead the AL in slugging and OPS.

Excalabur - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#146326) #
Hm.  While I still can't figure out how to make my graph appear above, further rummaging on the internet (ok, THT)  turns up this website which automagically does WPA graphs for every game in the majors the following day.  It disagrees with my spreadsheeting, above, but I'm sure they know what they're doing. 

All those of you that already know of fangraphs.com, you may ignore this message.
Mike Green - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#146328) #

"Riding the hot hand" is a controversial topic, as discussed in the The Book.  Still, in that situation, with Hinske not having had many at-bats and Hillenbrand pumped in front of a Boston crowd (and it being the early season when Shea normally shines), I would have let him hit against Papelbon, notwithstanding the DP risk.  The interesting part of the top of the ninth though was the pinch-running decisions. Having a short bench does cramp a manager's style in that kind of game.

Mike D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#146331) #
I think that's right, Mike -- it's less "hot vs. cold" and more "ready vs. rusty."
greenfrog - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#146332) #
What a great game. Lots to think about from an armchair manager's perspective. Some comments:

- Halladay settled down nicely after Arnsberg visited the mound. He started mixing in some slow and fast curves, which helped. I also thought he was hurt by some cheap (or well-placed) hits and the subpar field conditions. Still, he doesn't look like the classic Roy Halladay. He hasn't been his usual aggressive self. More 3-2 counts and more off-speed stuff, and his pitches seem just a bit flat (note that his strikeouts are down this year). And he caught a break with Loretta's DP grounder to end the big inning early on. If Loretta gets a hit, Roy's in huge trouble--and maybe out of the game.

Give him credit for his composure and competitive instincts, though.

- I wondered whether Rios was safe at third too. The throw beat him, but the tag looked like it was applied just as he made contact with the bag.

- It probably isn't essential, but it would be nice to have an extra bat and/or speedster on the bench. I suppose this problem will become less pressing if and when Hill/Adams start hitting more. Right now our options are a bit limited late in a close game.

- The Jays won because the entire team contributed, as JP noted. Hill's and Adams's hits were huge.

- I know some baseball analysts say that streakiness is a fiction, but have they been watching Shea?
Paul D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#146333) #
- I know some baseball analysts say that streakiness is a fiction, but have they been watching Shea?

Well I don't think anyone thinks that streakiness is fiction, more like you can't predict when a streak will start or end, so there's no point in managing like a player is on a streak.  Even though I'm sure the math behind that is sound, it seem so counterintiutive that I have a hard time believing it.
Geoff - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#146338) #
I'm just amazed, and thankful, that the act keeps working

I've noticed that Ryan seems to be like a half-actor, half-pitcher on the mound. He's certainly practiced in the art of deception and has that quality of "mound presence" that gets bandied about from time to time. In this way, Ryan reminds me a lot of Dennis Eckersley, another crafty, deceptive hurler who could really dominate when his mojo was working.

Mike Green - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#146341) #

practiced in the art of deception

After Zaun's passed ball and error, Ryan knew that "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes...".  There were however no blood stains on his hands. "Mojo working" is a whole 'nother story.

 

Leigh - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#146343) #

I would be inclined to think (warning: subjectivity ahead!) that the question of whether or not streaks exist is a semantic one, in that there may be a variable that is temporarily in the hitter's favour.  Such as rusty vs. ready, as Mike D. notes, or perhaps a temporary change in diet or sleeping habits, maybe some new contact lenses... any cause for increased manifestation of skill that goes undiagnosed and so is in danger of fleeting, maybe another team's advance scout really screwed up a report.  Is that a 'hot streak'?  Maybe, maybe not... but the difference is semantic.

That said, much of these 'streaks' must just be random, right? Flipping a coin a few hundred times, you may very well flip fourteen tails out of twenty flips at some point. 

No Hillenbrands were derided in the composition of this comment.

Mike D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#146344) #

In my opinion, streaks have too much to do with health and mechanics (which may be influenced by health) to be just random.  Managers have the benefit of trained opinions on the state of a player's health and/or mechanics, and fans don't -- even if they happen to be "analysts."

Leigh - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#146345) #
I totally agree, Mike D.
Mike D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#146346) #

I posted before I saw Leigh's remark, which I think is right...except for the coin flip analogy, which I only disagree with because to be analogous one would have to assume that a player's on- and off-the-field conditions are the same when he's running hot and cold.

Some randomness is involved in streaking; Aaron Hill has repeatedly hit line drives straight at people, while Vernon Wells has beat out at least four dribblers for singles in the last 2-3 weeks.  But I think aches and pains -- both physical and mental -- or the absence thereof contribute more to streaks than does pure randomness.

Mike D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#146347) #

Bah.  Again, I posted before seeing Leigh's remark!

Paul D - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#146352) #
Assume streaks exist and is predictable.

A player is going through a hot streak.  Does the manager ever look at him and say his streak is over so I'm going to sit him?  Mind you, I'm not talking about after a week where he goes 2/19, I'm taking about after a game in which he walks and hits 2 singles.  And maybe in the last at-bat the manager notices something that tells him the streak is over.  Does he sit?
My guess is that 99/100 he plays the next game, unless he was do for rest anyways.

In which case, what's the benefit to being able to identify streaks and streakiness?

Craig B - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#146353) #

That said, much of these 'streaks' must just be random, right? Flipping a coin a few hundred times, you may very well flip fourteen tails out of twenty flips at some point. 

Except that unlike a coin flip, luck doesn't play the most significant role in the outcome of an at-bat (a coin flip is just about 100% luck).  Baseball isn't like DMB... the outcomes of ABs aren't determined by random numbers.  It looks like the outcomes of ABs are determined by random numbers, or looks close enough to fool you into thinking so (and providing a useful tool for simulation) but they are actually determined mostly by skill, skill which varies sufficiently from pitch-to-pitch that it simulates a random process.

Luck does play a role as well... a player can sometimes be playing well but getting bad results if he's unlucky (for example, a hitter getting lots of true hops and hitting at-em balls).  But skill is the more significant factor and (I haven't proved this empricially but have confirmed it sufficiently to myself playing other sports) a hot streak will normally have more to do with a temporary rise in comparative ability rather than a run of fortune.

A run of matchups against bad pitchers or bad hitters, of course (or hitters/pitchers that you do well against) can also siumulate a hot streak.  That's the "comparative" part of comaprative ability.

I find it odd that people are so quick to ascribe hitting and pitching results to luck (per se) - we usually don't do the same to fielders.

Leigh - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#146356) #

a hot streak will normally have more to do with a temporary rise in comparative ability rather than a run of fortune.

That is precisely what I meant in the first paragraph of my earlier comment.  By later mentioning randomization, I did not intend to suggest that luck or randomness was the most significant - or even a significant - factor.

I didn't express it very well... maybe I'll go get another coffee.

Craig B - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#146358) #
There's where we need to think about how we define things.  You and I were using "random" in different senses... you were using random in the sense that the outcomes will vary randomly because the comparative true talent level bounces around in a way that looks random (which it does).  I was thinking of "random" in the sense that someone would call the outcome of any single AB "random" (i.e. dependent primarily on luck), which it isn't.  I think we're on the same wavelength.
Leigh - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#146359) #

I had originally written this:

the question of whether or not streaks exist is a semantic one, in that there may be a variable that is temporarily in the hitter's favour.  Such as rusty vs. ready, as Mike D. notes, or perhaps a temporary change in diet or sleeping habits, maybe some new contact lenses... any cause for increased manifestation of skill that goes undiagnosed and so is in danger of fleeting, maybe another team's advance scout really screwed up a report.  Is that a 'hot streak'?  Maybe, maybe not... but the difference is semantic.

I think that accords with your position, Craig, doesn't it?

Mike Green - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#146361) #
In general terms, if one takes a player on a hot streak (let's say 10 games where his production is 25% better than his 3 year norms by OPS/GPA or similar statistic) and look prospectively at how the player is likely to do in the next at-bat, the player's 3 year statistics are a much, much more accurate predictor of how the player is likely to fare than his production during the hot streak.  There have been large scale studies about that.

It doesn't work that way at all for "cold" pitchers, because (I would guess) "cold" pitchers have disproportionate incidence of undiagnosed injuries. 

Craig B - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#146363) #

It doesn't work that way at all for "cold" pitchers, because (I would guess) "cold" pitchers have disproportionate incidence of undiagnosed injuries. 

I don't agree.  Injuries are a small part of the equation, but on this at least I can speak from experience: pitching is really, really hard to do, and a small degree of variation in approach produces wildly divergent results.  A locked-in pitcher is much better than his normal self; a screwed-up pitcher is totally ineffective.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that the result is as you say, and much larger than the co-ordinate effect for hitters.  The physiological difficulties of pitching, which you're getting at with the injury explanation, is only one of the four pillars of pitching success and I think the physical difficulties play an even greater role than the physiological ones.

If you shortened a pitcher's right leg by a third of an inch and didn't tell him, he couldn't pitch at all and he'd go insane trying to figure out what happened.  A hitter might never notice until his back started to hurt when he ran.

There is also the fact that pitchers have a lower deviation of true talent value than hitters do, which would partially explain Mike's result, but that may be related to exactly this point... because their variability is higher, but the selection bias is just as strong (stronger these days, with it being so easy to replace pitchers in-game and in-season) pitchers wind up showing a lower deviation of ability.

Generally: I would note that the fact that a long-term established level of ability is more important than short-term effectiveness at predicting near-term outcomes is entirely to be expected, and is a result of there being good hitters and bad hitters.  That does not mean that hitters do not gain "matchup benefits" from facing particular pitchers (they do) or have relatively good and bad periods (they do that, too). 

The dialectic nature of baseball's at-bats, games, seasons and careers (pitchers and hitters are constantly looking for advantages and disadvantages of each other to exploit, and seeking to compensate for their own disadvantages exploited by others) will lead to exactly the results we see... that is, the very competition that underlies batters' and pitchers' performances will tend against streaky results.

Ron - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#146375) #
The next 2 scheduled starts for Towers are against the A's at home and the D-Rays on the road.

Even if Towers coughs up let's say 8 runs in 2 innings vs. the A's, I would still give him another start.

It's easy to be frustrated right now because Towers has been awful so far, but we can't forget about what he did last season. A season in which he was one of the top starters in the AL East.

At this point I hope Towers can bounce back and go back to how he performed last season. He would make a very expensive mop up man.

Magpie - Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 11:52 PM EDT (#146380) #
if you had decided to pinch-run for Overbay with McDonald when he reached second with one out, wouldn't it make sense to do so with Overbay on 1st and nobody out

Gibbons has done this before - wait for the man to make it to second before bringing in the pinch runner - and I assume it's because he doesn't want to go to his bench and then lose the guy on a 64 forceout. Or a double play, for that matter. There's no one on the bench fast enough to make a difference on the front end of a DP. So he waits until that particular danger passes.

greenfrog - Friday, May 05 2006 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#146382) #
JP is a pragmatist. I think he would take Towers out of the rotation asap if he had a better option. The problem is, there isn't a better option. Downs isn't much of a starter--this year he's been hit hard, and he's only good for 4 or 5 innings. More important, we need him in the pen. No one in the minors (Rosario, Purcey, Banks, Marcum) is ready, so far as I can tell.

I can't bear to watch Towers right now, and even more, I hate the rationalizations being batted around by the media--we're only a game out of first, Towers has been solid the last three years, we've had a tough schedule, etc. We're 14-13 and Towers has *six* of those losses and none of the wins. The bullpen is being severely taxed. And we're fortunate to be within a couple of games of first place. At some point one or both of our divisional rivals is going to heat up in a big way (check out the Yankees' +/- run differential). Being around .500 at that point isn't going to seem so impressive.

 I'm guessing JP gives him another couple of starts. If he continues to be terrible, they'll probably try something along the lines of Walker/Downs/Marcum/Banks after that. At least until early June, when (ideally) they get AJ back.

King Ryan - Friday, May 05 2006 @ 01:57 AM EDT (#146386) #
 I'm with Ron on this one.  We are still quite early in the season, and after the year he had last year he deserves a chance to work it out.  Lilly got way more time than this so why not Towers?

When I play MVP baseball I always wait until at least May 20th before I make any changes.  If the Jays run the real team like I do in MVP baseball, we should win the next 15 pennants!

Craig B - Friday, May 05 2006 @ 08:41 AM EDT (#146389) #
King Ryan, perhaps we should just put you in charge.  (And at the same time, of course, put crude AI programs in charge of the other 29 teams... a man can dream....)
Mike Green - Friday, May 05 2006 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#146390) #

There's no one on the bench fast enough to make a difference on the front end of a DP

Well, that's the perception anyways.  The difference in speed between McDonald and Molina or even between McDonald and Overbay as a baserunner would result in a reduction in double play frequency. Perhaps the reduction would be modest enough to not justify the cost in using scarce bench resources. I wonder.   

Jays 7 - Red Sox 6 | 54 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.