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The middle of spring training is here and the Jays finally have all of their players in camp. Vernon Wells is back from the WBC and in the lineup, and Gustavo Chacin is scheduled to pitch today.

Both games are on the Fan 590 so many fans will have a chance to catch up on Blue Jay news. Discuss it here.
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Gerry - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 01:36 PM EST (#142865) #
AJ Burnett left the game in the second inning for an as yet undisclosed reason. Burnett called out the trainer after delivering a pitch and immediately walked off the field. Updates to come.
HollywoodHartman - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 01:49 PM EST (#142867) #
....Poo
Mike Forbes - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 01:59 PM EST (#142868) #
Maybe he just had to call his wife at a special time?...
Petey Baseball - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 02:11 PM EST (#142869) #
I'm taking an afternoon off from the NCAA tournament to listen to the game this afternoon. Burnett going down for any period could jeopardize his start on April 5th against the Twins (that I will be at).

Speaking of that April 5th game, what is the bauxites general opinion on how many people will be at that game? Its been my experience that the 2nd home game of the year is the emptiest because all the once-a years come for opening da0y. Frankly I'm hoping a large loud crowd to (hopefully)welcome AJ to Toronto.

Also to do with attendance, I see that Opening Day is not yet sold out. I wonder if it will be a real sellout this year rather than the 48 000 that generally show up. I've been at the last 4 and they were announced at a sellout but there were plenty of 500 level seats not taken.
edtjeerd - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 03:22 PM EST (#142871) #
According to the FAN590, they say Burnett hurt his elbow in todays game, but no one is saying how serious it is.
andrewkw - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 03:23 PM EST (#142872) #
Apparently it is an elbow injury. Hopefully he will not miss more then one spring training start. I bought tickets to the 2nd game of the year before last years playoffs were over expecting to see AJ's blue jay debut.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 03:24 PM EST (#142873) #
It's just not that encouraging before a single game for 5 years.
andrewkw - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 03:24 PM EST (#142874) #
i should have said it was the fan whom said elbow but i see its already been posted.
timpinder - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 03:59 PM EST (#142875) #
Hopefully Burnett just tweaked it a little. He missed a single game last year with a sore elbow that was nothing serious. I'm crossing my fingers.

Ron - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 04:03 PM EST (#142876) #
Anytime a pitcher pulls himself from a game because of an arm/shoulder/elbow related problem I get nervous.

I hope it's nothing serious and he's ready for his next ST start.
SK in NJ - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 04:22 PM EST (#142877) #
"He kept saying he was sore, he was sore,'' Jays catcher Bengie Molina said in the team's clubhouse after coming out of the game in the middle innings. "He couldn't do another pitch. He couldn't handle it.''

Molina wasn't certain whether or not the soreness was in Burnett's elbow, which he had "Tommy John'' surgery on three years ago. "They kept telling him 'Don't point, don't point','' he added. "So, I have no idea.''

=========================================================

This sucks.
einsof - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 04:38 PM EST (#142878) #
I heard Overbay & some other Jays in the Postgame clubhouse show on the FAN 590 & they sounded seriously worried that it might be real bad---they(Overbay) did say that your mind takes you to the worst-case scenario---So really we don't know anything right now, other then that based on AJ's history of Tommy John surgery a few years ago, this could be serious-- More will be revealed in time..AJ didn't look sharp at all in that 1st inning..Here's hoping that everybody's fears are wrong & that AJ misses one ST game..
westcoast dude - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 05:23 PM EST (#142879) #
Worst case scenario means one of the understudies rises to the challenge and grabs the brass ring. Janssen could be the one.
Ron - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 05:26 PM EST (#142880) #
Rosenthal also gives a thumbs down to Doc's extension

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5423032

"The Jays' approach illustrates a common problem with teams that suddenly increase payroll: Once they start spending, they often can't stop. The Jays now have $44.5 million committed to Halladay, Burnett, Ryan and third baseman Troy Glaus in 2008, plus $36.25 million committed to the three pitchers in '09 and $37.75 million in '10.

The odds are minimal that all three will be healthy and productive for the durations of their contracts."
Jabes - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 05:36 PM EST (#142881) #
My prediction is that if we don't see Burnett start at the beginning of the season we won't see him at all this year.
braden - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 05:44 PM EST (#142882) #
The Star has what seems to be the most up to date article as of yet.

Some of the key points are that he has already gone for an MRI and that he apparently felt the pain during his first pitch of the game.

I've got a bad feeling about this.....
CaramonLS - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 06:19 PM EST (#142884) #
Roy might not be healthy for the entire contract, but isn't that what insurance is for?

However, I'm pretty damned sure he is going to be productive whenever he is healthy, so i don't see the problem.
Nick - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 06:22 PM EST (#142885) #
I am officially pressing the panic button after reading the Star article referenced above. There isn't one item from the description of events that is even remotely reassuring.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1142680214276&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064
Nick - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 06:29 PM EST (#142886) #
The story from Bluejays.com corroborates the Star story. It's a lot of the same quotes with a couple new ones.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060318&content_id=1354513&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor
Newton - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 06:30 PM EST (#142887) #
Wow, what a downer. If AJ is hurt JP's career as a big league GM is done, maybe not immediately but this will not be forgotten by any big league organisation.

Looks like we've got AJ for the full 5 years now eh, won't have to worry about the 3 year opt out anymore...

Or maybe he misses 2 years pitches well in the 3rd and then leaves.

I knew there was a very good chance AJ would get hurt just didn't think (hope) it would happen immediately.

Do the Jays have insurance for pitchers? I remember having this discussion earlier and the consensus seemed to be no.

If they don't this constitutes managerial negligence.

andrewkw - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 06:32 PM EST (#142889) #
Would Burnetts salary for the year be 90% insurable or whatever the normal rate is? I remember Pedro not being insurable because of the tear he had in his arm, so I'm wondering if AJ's elbow injury history would have prevented his elbow from being insurable?

I don't have a good feeling..
Glevin - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 06:48 PM EST (#142890) #
""The Jays' approach illustrates a common problem with teams that suddenly increase payroll: Once they start spending, they often can't stop. The Jays now have $44.5 million committed to Halladay, Burnett, Ryan and third baseman Troy Glaus in 2008, plus $36.25 million committed to the three pitchers in '09 and $37.75 million in '10."

This is true, but Halladay is the best contract of the bunch. The problem is not the extension, but the huge contracts given to the other three guys.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 06:56 PM EST (#142891) #
Cuba just won over Dominican. This is freakin fantastic. However, the last few pitches were called strikes and shouldn't have been - typical of the bad calls so far in this World Baseball Classic. They should have better umps next time, I hope it doesn't take away from the popularity of the tournament. Either way - this is amazing, I'm so happy for Cuba: can you believe we are going to see a Cuba vs. Japan/Korea final?
Ron - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:03 PM EST (#142892) #
If AJ's injury is serious (and I'm getting the feeling it is), I'm sure the Jays care very little about insurance at the moment.

Let's assume the worst case scenario and say AJ is done for the season, this pretty much kills the chances of the Jays obtaining a wildcard spot. It was already going to be tough with a healthy productive AJ, now it might be nearly impossible.

And then there's the issue that he was given a 5 year contract.

Let's hope for the best.
Geoff - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:08 PM EST (#142893) #
It's not like the only improvement the Jays made over last year was A.J. So calling the chances at winning a wild card berth impossible is a bit of a stretch.

I guess you're not one of the guys who figured the Jays could have been in the playoff race last year if Roy was around for the second half of the season, and the team had more luck on one-run contests?

The sky isn't falling.
mathesond - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:11 PM EST (#142894) #
I was under the impression that insurance companies would only insure contracts of three year or less. I could be wrong, though, and perhaps they only insure the first three years of a deal (although Bagwell's on a 5-year deal and the Astros are covered if he is disabled for this season)
MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:12 PM EST (#142895) #
Yes the sky is falling. I just ordered a $200 Burnett jersey on Thursday... Hopefully it won't collect dust beside my Sirotka and Hamilton ones...
rtcaino - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:12 PM EST (#142896) #
What is the deal with insurance? If AJ is done, and never pitches again, is the entirety of the contract covered?
VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:16 PM EST (#142897) #
Speaking of that April 5th game, what is the bauxites general opinion on how many people will be at that game? Its been my experience that the 2nd home game of the year is the emptiest because all the once-a years come for opening da0y. Frankly I'm hoping a large loud crowd to (hopefully)welcome AJ to Toronto.

Judging from seat availability, if I had to estimate, I'd say there were about 16,000 seats sold for the second game. Walkup crowds will be higher for the hopeful Burnett start and usually consist of 25-30% of the final announced crowd. I'd say that there will be 25-29,000 people there.

Opening Day actually only has about 3,000 seats left. I was talkign with a couple of Jays people today and that's the current number. The website is generally an inaccurate way of indicating tickets sold, as they don't make sections 134 and higher available for sale. I think most f the seats have been taken up by groups.

Also, the Jays sold standing room tickets on Opening Night last year as well for two dollars where fans have the option of watching the game from the concourse area (between 113D and 109)or selecting an empty seat on the 500 level. The place will be sold out.

This injury is really, really scary. It's ruined what had been a pretty good day.

NFH seems like a pretty lucky guy. What can we do? Fu Manchu's? Shall I burn some merchandise? There must be something we can do!

greenfrog - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:18 PM EST (#142898) #
It's potentially very bad, obviously, but the bottom line is that we don't know anything yet. He was dominant in his last start (6 K's in 4 innings, I think), so at least there's hope that this was a one-off, or a short-term problem.
Jim - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:20 PM EST (#142899) #
Of course I bought AJ at $32 in a AL roto auction today. He looked like crap when I was in Florida last week, I saw him start twice, so this is hardly a shock to me.
Ron - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:23 PM EST (#142900) #
"It's not like the only improvement the Jays made over last year was A.J. So calling the chances at winning a wild card berth impossible is a bit of a stretch.

I guess you're not one of the guys who figured the Jays could have been in the playoff race last year if Roy was around for the second half of the season, and the team had more luck on one-run contests?"

I said it would be nearly impossible not impossible.

It's tough to answer your last question. How much of "luck" did you think effected the teams win-lose record on one run games last season?

What constitues "playoff race"? 3 games back at the end of August?

I don't believe the Jays would have won the division or wildcard if Doc was healthy the whole season.
Cristian - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:23 PM EST (#142901) #
Oh well, what could we really expect when he was given a 5 year 55 million dollar contract? In contractspeak, this is known as the 'Dreifort'.
Glevin - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:25 PM EST (#142902) #
"It's not like the only improvement the Jays made over last year was A.J. So calling the chances at winning a wild card berth impossible is a bit of a stretch."

If Burnett is out for the year, the Jays have virtually no shot of making the playoffs. The Jays lineup was only average to begin with and needed near dominant pitching to contend. I don't think it all that likely even with Burnett, but it is possible given Burnett's stuff. Without him, the Jays rotation is not very impressive. Average hitting, average pitching, and bad defense is not a winning combo.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:26 PM EST (#142903) #
I wanna know what TJ's asking. Basically, what if he misses another year and a half from another Tommy John and never recovers, pitching like 110 innings in his third year? Do we still have to pay him for the first 3 years - and what's worse can we get him to retire or something so we don't have to pay him for the last two seasons? If we lose him as a pitcher and only pay him for year 1 and 2, losing 19 million bucks (first year is only 7 mil), then I'd be much happier with that situation then losing 55 mil for a pitcher who'll pitch like 200 innings and suck and eat up salary space....
MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:27 PM EST (#142904) #
I enjoy the term "Chan Ho" much more appealing.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:27 PM EST (#142905) #
I mean, let's face it, if not now, then soon enough this will happen. And I don't think he's that good anyway, the way he's been pitching this spring training - he'll be lucky to have a 5 ERA this year.
MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:29 PM EST (#142906) #
"I wanna know what TJ's asking. Basically, what if he misses another year and a half from another Tommy John and never recovers, pitching like 110 innings in his third year? Do we still have to pay him for the first 3 years - and what's worse can we get him to retire or something so we don't have to pay him for the last two seasons? If we lose him as a pitcher and only pay him for year 1 and 2, losing 19 million bucks (first year is only 7 mil), then I'd be much happier with that situation then losing 55 mil for a pitcher who'll pitch like 200 innings and suck and eat up salary space...."

The Dark Force has arisen!

MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:30 PM EST (#142907) #
"I mean, let's face it, if not now, then soon enough this will happen. And I don't think he's that good anyway, the way he's been pitching this spring training - he'll be lucky to have a 5 ERA this year."

Try not to roll the ankle while jumping off the wagon eh!
Ron - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:31 PM EST (#142908) #
"and what's worse can we get him to retire or something so we don't have to pay him for the last two seasons?"

Even if he's ineffective, why in the world would he retire and pass up 24 million?
King Ryan - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:31 PM EST (#142909) #
Boy. I was going to come in here and offer my usual pessimism, but now I see that it's not necessary!

Seriously guys, let's back away from the cliff and wait for some info to filter through...
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:32 PM EST (#142910) #
Oh I'm not jumping off the bandwagon Mondesi, I still love the Jays. And I think they can still make the playoffs this year for sure. Last year that lost 31 one-run games, and had half a year of Doc. With a full year of Doc, BJ Ryan, and addition of the other hitters - I think they'll do it without Burnett. It's just I don't have much confidence in him, with all the injury's and lack of concentration he has. Though maybe maturity may cure some of the latter.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:34 PM EST (#142911) #
Yeah but Ron maybe he'll walk away and retire or something cause he can't pitch anymore...if he can only pitch like 50 innings a year for the last two years as middle relief, and keeps being paid, what a selfish guy!
VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:35 PM EST (#142912) #
I mean, let's face it, if not now, then soon enough this will happen. And I don't think he's that good anyway, the way he's been pitching this spring training - he'll be lucky to have a 5 ERA this year.

Last stop for the bandwagon. Everybody off!

Come on. "Soon enough this will happen". Would JP give someone a 5 year contract if he *knew* that "soon enough this will happen"? Injury aside, it's SPRING FRIGGIN TRAINING! Tom Cruise's personally life means more to me than this does, injury aside.

If reality took spring training seriously, we'd see this:

-Josh Phelps would be the AL MVP with the runner up Eric Hinske.
-The White Sox would win 28 games.
-The Marlins would win 125 games.

See where I'm going with this?

Now this injury should be taken with seriousness, but until we actually, you know hear something, can we just lay off the "I knew this would happen, everything sucks" talk? :)

King Ryan - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:35 PM EST (#142913) #
Yeah but Ron maybe he'll walk away and retire or something cause he can't pitch anymore...if he can only pitch like 50 innings a year for the last two years as middle relief, and keeps being paid, what a selfish guy!

Are you seriously saying you'd do differently?

MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:37 PM EST (#142914) #
"Though maybe maturity may cure some of the latter."

Ahh, but maturity can also cure some of the batter.
Mylegacy - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:38 PM EST (#142915) #
Have no fear gentlemen, and gentle ladies, this is our YEAR! AJ or no AJ we will previl! McGowan will become the GREAT PITCHER we all know he will be, this gives him the chance to do it NOW! AND, BANKS IS FOR REAL!

OK, OK, but why is there that funny pain in my chest that just won't go away? Oh, woe is me!
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:39 PM EST (#142916) #
I don't get it Mondesi Rules.
VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:41 PM EST (#142917) #
I know who we can blame! After the Burnett signing who changes their name????!!!

TJ CAINO!

as in Tommy John Caino...

You doomed us, Caino, you doomed us.

MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:44 PM EST (#142918) #
If I don't open the box, can I just return it?
King Ryan - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:45 PM EST (#142919) #
There's such a wide range of things that can happen...it's driving me crazy. Best case scenario is that he didn't stretch well enough and hyperextended it or something. Worst case scenario...TJ surgery again. Or maybe he needs to have his arm amputated. That would be pretty bad.

But really, it could be anything. We have to wait before we start speculating on his retirement. (wtf?!)
MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:47 PM EST (#142921) #
It could be a simple overextension. I usually get this twice each summer playing in the beer league. Hurts like a son of a gun and can't play after that, but the next game I'm in and good to go.
MondesiRules - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:49 PM EST (#142922) #
Strange... the normal drivel isn't in here...Star Trek must be on now.
King Ryan - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:53 PM EST (#142924) #
Disagree...plenty of drivel here.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:53 PM EST (#142925) #
Hey don't call my entries drivel - pessimism is healthy, as it can work as a protective mechanism to make you not be hit as hard later on....I am just as hopeful for a good out come too....And I don't like Star Trek and I'm not a nerd. You pompous.

How long usually until we hear about MRI results. The next morning?
andrewkw - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:54 PM EST (#142927) #
The panic button is broken and stuck on. I think its time someone got working on a video presenation and perhaps a collection jar to see if The Rocket would be willing to give it another go here.
VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 07:56 PM EST (#142928) #
pessimism is healthy

Constructive criticism is healthy. "It's a matter of time before Burnett is injured" isn't.

And besides, it is Tommy John Caino's fault anyways.

Keith Talent - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:07 PM EST (#142929) #
I think The Rocket is worried about getting caught with The Rocket Fuel, thus all the to-and-fro over his retirement. My personal opinion, which I'm sure time will show is correct.
greenfrog - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:09 PM EST (#142930) #
pessimism is natural, given this afternoon's events.

I don't see what constructive criticism has to do with anything. Either AJ is seriously injured or he isn't.

Refraining from panic or hysteria makes sense, but it's pretty hard to be restrained. Me? I feel pretty sick at the moment.
VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:14 PM EST (#142931) #
Yea, but we haven't even heard anything yet. Okay, okay, different strokes for different folks :)

It's been brought to my attention that AJ Burnett had a similiar thing happen to him last year--he only missed one start and was fine afterwards.

There's a good chance everything will be okay. This isn't his first scare since TJ.
Keith Talent - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:16 PM EST (#142933) #
The bluejays.com report reads like a recount of the moments leading up to a terrorist attack or something.
HollywoodHartman - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:18 PM EST (#142934) #
Can anyone bring up a report from when AJ had to miss his start last year?
VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:29 PM EST (#142935) #
The article from 2005 can be found here.

Burnett experienced some discomfort, and he informed the team on Sunday of some tightness. Since he had Tommy John surgery in April 2003, any elbow ailment is of concern.

As a precaution, Burnett traveled to Birmingham, Ala., where Dr. James Andrews, who performed the Tommy John surgery, diagnosed the problem as elbow inflammation.

Well that provides some comfort. And it looks like he pitched and then informed the team, so if that didn't mess him up, perhaps this won't.

JayWay - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:32 PM EST (#142936) #
In other news, I just heard that the authorities at the Dome have told the owners of the "Cat House" banner that is seen along the third base line that they are no longer allowed to display the sign during Jays games. The reason? Some corporate box owner complained that "Cat House" is another term for whore house, and that they're offended.

What a bunch of sucks. Seriously, how weak-kneed does Blue Jays management have to be to bend to this BS? God forbid a few fans' attempts at actually creating a supportive atmosphere for the team in the Dome offends the fragile sensibilities of the pampered class.

I think I'm going to write to the Jays and tell them the non-stop advertising and the the over the top commercialization of that is now an integral part of the Blue Jays game-day experience offends me and that I want to see it stopped. Think they'll listen? I doubt it. I'm not a millionaire corporate box owner.
VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:44 PM EST (#142939) #
Best news of the day!

For you RC regulars, I have some information updates on the renovations that have taken place.

-Concourse is white, less cluttered with ads, has a beachwood pannelled ceiling and now comes further out than the 200 level overhang. This means that you can stand behind home plate behind the last row with no roof over your head.

-Gate 8 is one big wall of glass which will be a Rogers Video Store.

-The old McDonalds area will be one huge Jays Shop.

-the 200 level is totally and completely redone and walls have been removed so that people on the concourse can view the game while walking, like the 100 level always was.

-There appears to be some major digging construction by gate ten. I couldn't tell if it's some major renovation or just maintenance work. It might have something to do with hot water pipes.

-Wheelchair accessible seating has really improved with the last five rows being removed.
Rickster - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:45 PM EST (#142940) #
Only out for 5 days! Quick: everyone back on the bandwagon!

Let's see some apologies from the "I knew this would happen" crowd.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:46 PM EST (#142941) #
Fantastic, I knew it. Even the Jays shared my sentiments:

"So naturally, when the pitcher pulled himself from Saturday's start just one pitch into the second inning, a sense of despair began to creep into the Toronto dugout."

Anyway, I just hope they are EXTRA cautious with him now, even somewhat underpitch him for the first half of the season, let alone forcing him to consider pitching on the opening series. Be REAL gentle. Maybe this thing will clear up and he'll pitch a solid/fantastic year.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:49 PM EST (#142942) #
That's awesome news VBF, renovating the skydome. How will the Rogers Video store work? It's a cool idea, if you can return your movie to any other Rogers Video store in the city instead of having to go to another Jays game to get it back!!!!1
Newton - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:53 PM EST (#142943) #
J.P.'s career just flashed before his eyes, seriously.

VBF - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 08:58 PM EST (#142944) #
That's awesome news VBF, renovating the skydome. How will the Rogers Video store work? It's a cool idea, if you can return your movie to any other Rogers Video store in the city instead of having to go to another Jays game to get it back!!!!

No, I really doubt that. It's pretty clever though that they now give people a reason to come back to the Dome the next day.

I was talking to a Mr. Ryan Greer or one of the shop reps I cna't remember and they said that Jays merchandise will also find its way into Rogers Video locations as well.

As someone majoring in marketing, this is my VORP :)

eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 09:03 PM EST (#142945) #
Hey cool I wanna do marketing also. How has your majoring in the field been so far?
SK in NJ - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 09:40 PM EST (#142947) #
Not to be a downer here, but how many days and weeks was Halladay away from returning to the Jays in the 2nd half of last year according to Jays officials....before they finally shut him down?

I'll wait until AJ starts a few games before celebrating. Halladay's injury last year proves that nothing is guaranteed.
Matthew E - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 10:15 PM EST (#142949) #
It's true that nothing is guaranteed... but that includes a lot of things, almost none of which we're considering at the moment.

There's a chance that one of Toronto's starting infielders will suffer a fatal heart attack before Opening Day. Nothing is guaranteed.

There's a chance that Halladay's leg will start bugging him again. There's a chance he'll never pitch again. Nothing is guaranteed.

There's a chance that Vernon Wells will get run over by a car tonight. Nothing is guaranteed.

But we're not worried about any of that stuff (and rightly so). The only reason we're jumping up and down about Burnett's arm is that it's been brought to our attention dramatically today. If they say that Burnett should be ready to go pretty soon, then I accept that until I hear different.
eeleye - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 10:26 PM EST (#142950) #
Somehow I think this scare is good - pending nothing else bad happens, it kind gives the team a stronger sense of unity because of the potential hardship they had to face. It's like: for a second we thought we lost Burnett, so we can play like we have nothing to lose. ANyone agree that this makes things more cohesive?
Mike Forbes - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 10:35 PM EST (#142951) #
Wow, you'd swear someone died earlier in this thread... Now it seems the corpse of AJ Burnett has been revived and all is better in Blue Jay land... Ah, how quickly things change.
Willy - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 10:47 PM EST (#142952) #
Here is the Batters Box Code Of Conduct and Posting Rules: 1. Batter's Box is a site for intelligent baseball discussion and your posts should show evidence of intelligence. Try to advance the discussion with relevant observations or opinions. Before posting ask yourself: 'Is this post contributing to the thread?' If the answer is 'No' or 'I'm not sure', do not post your comment to the thread. At Batter's Box we value quality over quantity.

Yes, there has been some drivel slopped about here. Try reading the site's FAQ again. The first 'ground rule' is quoted above.
Jim - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 10:55 PM EST (#142953) #
Thanks Willy, I was trying to figure out a nice way to say that.

If they don't this constitutes managerial negligence.

This quote refers back to insurance on pitcher's contracts. You could say the exact same thing of any company that would insure elbows of pitchers who have had Tommy John surgery.

6-4-3 - Saturday, March 18 2006 @ 11:08 PM EST (#142955) #
Is Burnett's contract actually insured? I know this was asked before, but now that AJ's elbow has not exploded maybe we can actually answer the question. I find it hard to believe that any 5 year contact in baseball could be insured (after Driefort, Park, Vaughn, etc), but I could easily be wrong.
Ken Kosowan - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:19 AM EST (#142959) #
Discussion of Burnett retiring due to this seemingly disasterous injury is, in fact, drivel. This is most obviously compounded when it appears that the injury to the young hurler is, of course, minor. Mr. Burnett's career isn't quite over yet ladies and gentlemen.

The overreaction witnessed today tells me several things;

A - Some Jays Fans on the Box are passionate about their team.
B - Some Jays Fans on the Box have a "Chicken Little" complex. The sky is not falling. Burnett's arm did not fall off, nor did he retire.
C - Some Jays Fans on the Box did not want to make rational and intelligent comments based upon facts, simply wanting to react to incomplete reports.
D - All Jays Fans on the Box need Opening Day to arrive in order to fulfil their seemingly insatiable urge to digest and analyze Blue Jays related news.

Relax folks. Relax.

Interesting also that several posters already referred to JP's job security as a result of the injury/possible retirement (seriously guys...) to his 5 year, $55 million investment. Me thinks there are negative ninny lurkers around.
Named For Hank - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:23 AM EST (#142960) #
Newton, a lot of people are panicking and writing odd things in this thread, so I'm not picking specifically on you but I am going to address specific things you wrote because they seem to sum up some feelings out there that I have thoughts on --

If AJ is hurt JP's career as a big league GM is done, maybe not immediately but this will not be forgotten by any big league organisation.

I must assume that you mean that it was obvious that Burnett was going to get hurt, otherwise you're implying that bad luck will end a GM's career. Do pitchers who have Tommy John surgery re-injure themselves at a greater rate than pitchers who haven't had TJ surgery? I had thought that they were more durable afterwards, but that is just an impression. Does anyone actually know? Has signing a player to a large contract that the player couldn't complete because he was injured ended the career of any GM?

I knew there was a very good chance AJ would get hurt just didn't think (hope) it would happen immediately.

Aside from having had Tommy John surgery, what are the great big scary indicators that Burnett is a massive injury risk? I'm not claiming that there are none, I am curious to know what you saw or read that made you think this.

Do the Jays have insurance for pitchers? I remember having this discussion earlier and the consensus seemed to be no.
If they don't this constitutes managerial negligence.


Do most teams have their big contract players insured? Is it possible to insure big-dollar pitchers? I would think that if it was possible, the team would do it, and if it was not possible or not financially worth rolling the dice, they wouldn't do it -- they're not morons. But regardless, that wouldn't be a GM decision, would it? It would be an accountant / money men decision, perhaps a Paul Godfrey decision or even further up the Rogers money chain.
Ken Kosowan - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:25 AM EST (#142961) #
eeleye,

In addition. I'd much prefer to read the thoughts and analysis of posters instead of their panic-stricken accounts of how the Jays' season is over before the end of March. It's below the standard we've come to expect of this site.

I'm very much hoping this doesn't bring up the point of the Cabal's (There is no Cabal) intents as opposed to the collective will of its readership.

Vent analysis when Burnett endures an injury risk. Discuss the facts as they are. Stating that Burnett might retire is very much drivel, and to this reader, is simply what I'd expect to hear on late-night shows on the Fan 590 radio station in Toronto.

"Rick from Woodbridge, you're on the air!"

By the way eeleye, this comment isn't directed at you. It's mainly destined for the individuals who can't seem to differentiate thoughtful analysis from wild speculation.
rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:44 AM EST (#142962) #
If Burnett’s arm is done, so are the Jays, and so is my life. It is obvious that this is VBF’s fault for not changing his name to V.B. Fan. And Ken Kosowan’s fault, for other various reasons. My prediction: The Jays will move to Las Vegas by the end of the season. I just hope Mrs. Halladay can withstand the temptations better than Mrs Gretzky. Thanks a bunch Tommy John, your surgery F*&@ing sucks!
Mylegacy - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:45 AM EST (#142963) #
It is written;

"And it came to pass during the spring that a great concern would be aroused among the Blue Bird people of the North and that concern would lead to much gnashing of teeth and the indiscriminate saying of naughty words in the presence of the womenfolk and children.

BUT, it would turn out that the tempest was merely in the teapot and the universe returned to normal and a great peace descended upon the men folk who all apologized to the women folk and the children for the naughty words they had sayeth in haste. Then they all yelled in unison, GO JAYS!”

So sayeth the scribe.
rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:45 AM EST (#142964) #
I would like to take this time to apologize to VBF, Ken Kosowan, The Great One, Tommy John, and the Batter's Box community. I failed to resfrech my Internet page after keaving my house at around 7 pm. In retrospect, my reactions were childish, and I should not have swore. I shall attempt to be more adult in conducting myself in public forums such as Batters Box.

AJ FOR CY YOUNG!
Magpie - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:47 AM EST (#142966) #
Wow. Any sprained ankles out there, fellas?

Remember this - no season-ending injury to anybody on this team - anybody, including Roy Halladay - immediately eliminates the team from serious contention. Even if Doc suddenly decided to spend this year meditating in the Himalayas, there's enough left to put up a fight.

That's just the way the game is. The only player who means that much to his team is Babe Ruth.

And he's dead.

Ken Kosowan - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:53 AM EST (#142968) #
Caino,

No worries my friend. Looking forward to a Gators-Squeeze matchup in the Toronto Baseball Guys Baseball League.

So.... back to baseball.

Korea; down, but not out am I right?

I'm really pulling for those Koreans, although a Japan vs Cuba final would be fun as well.

By the way, Rosenthal, among others, are claiming that Korean Chan Ho Park has looked spectacular during the WBC. What do we, as the Battersbox community, believe about Mr. Park.

Knowing of course, that many here were likely burned in a Fantasy League by the pitcher, let's try to remain unemotional.
Named For Hank - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:54 AM EST (#142969) #
That's just the way the game is. The only player who means that much to his team is Babe Ruth.
And he's dead.


Oh my God, the Yankees are screwed.
rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:57 AM EST (#142970) #
But in all seriousness, Kosowan, give eeleye and every one else a break. This is a public forum. Given the circumstances, I do not think that speculation based on limited information is a cardinal sin. A lot of people here have a lot of hopes for this Toronto blue jays team. Even those of us who like to think of ourselves as objective voices are emotionally involved in the team. Though intelligent debate is strength of this site, so is passion. When a pitcher whom the team is counting on, and has had Reconstructive elbow surgery, leaves a game with elbow pain, it is not a good sign. While we didn’t know exactly what had happened, being a passionate fan, I was curious what would happen if he did go down for the season. Would insurance cover it?

Me thinks there are negative ninny lurkers around. I agree with this statement. But to be passionate involves passion. It involves both positive and negative emotions. Many of the people, who were posting in despair after this event, were also those who were posting in elation following the signings. They are not negative ninny lurkers. They are fans.
rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:00 AM EST (#142971) #
""No worries my friend. Looking forward to a Gators-Squeeze matchup in the Toronto Baseball Guys Baseball League.""

I have to hang on to my playoff spot first...
Magpie - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:00 AM EST (#142972) #
What do we, as the Battersbox community, believe about Mr. Park.

Best Nike commercial ever? (Oh, I dunno... the Glavine-Maddux is still a classic. But Park's was wonderful, too.)

Ken Kosowan - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:00 AM EST (#142973) #
Caino,

Agree with you for the most part. I took umbrage with the "Burnett to retire" or "JP might lose his job because of this" insanity that was being bandied about.

We're all passionate about our team; you should have seen me lay into Jacob Brumfield in the 1990s. However, on this site; we should keep our passion at a level where we can still have intelligent and meaningful dialogue.
Named For Hank - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:03 AM EST (#142974) #
When a pitcher whom the team is counting on, and has had Reconstructive elbow surgery, leaves a game with elbow pain, it is not a good sign. While we didn’t know exactly what had happened, being a passionate fan, I was curious what would happen if he did go down for the season. Would insurance cover it?

Asking if insurance would cover it is sensible; suggesting that people are incompetent if insurance doesn't cover it without knowing the details of the insurance, what it costs or how it works, is just rude to the people responsible for the team's insurance.

That's actually a really good example of why venting doesn't lead to a good discussion -- in the latter example, my own response above in the thread can't really lead this conversation anywhere, because I end up criticizing another poster instead of talking about baseball.

Passion is great. But you can still be passionate without venting. Venting just derails the baseball talk.
Geoff - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:20 AM EST (#142975) #
And the winner of this thread's chicken little award is...

 

   VBF, for offering to burn merchandise in an attempt to reverse the franchise's fortunes.

rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:21 AM EST (#142976) #
I see where you guys are coming from. However, in the past year, the only baseball related event which worried me more was Halladay getting hit with a line drive. I know it isn’t precisely the same thing, but I bet that if you went back to that game thread, before we knew the extant of the injury, you would find just as much panic.

Without seeing any stats, I would have to guess that the chances of a pitcher coming back from a second TJ surgery are not great.

I’m not changing my name either way… So whatever.
Ken Kosowan - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:31 AM EST (#142977) #
I enjoy injury related names actually. Maybe I could change it to Ken "Torn ACL" Kosowan.

Who's watching Japan v. Korea right now? Man; what an atmosphere. I'm wondering though; with the American's relatively early ousting, can the tournament survive with minimal American interest?

The rest of the baseball playing world seems to be loving it.
Newton - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:37 AM EST (#142978) #
NFH:

With all the attention the Burnett signing received and all the talk about the risks concomitant with giving a pitcher who makes numerous visits to Dr. James Andrews every year (each spring Burnett seems to make a stop in Alabama for an MRI) a 5 year deal JP likely knew he was risking his career on this signing.

I viewed it as a calculated gamble and stated in numerous threads that it was unlikely Burnett would be able to pitch 5 full consecutive seasons (as it is for any pitcher... let alone a guy with an injury riddled past who chucks 100 mph).

Don't get me wrong, I think JP did a very good job attracting talent to Toronto this summer with a well co-ordinated and well thought out recruiting strategy (immediate impact buiding buzz and momentum) and that in order to attract said talent he needed to overpay.

I stand by my comment that if AJ had been out for the season JP's career as a GM of any team other than the Blue Jays likely would have been over; I bet his career did flash before his eyes.

I admire his guts, he knew the risks and he made the signing in an attempt to get the ball rolling in T.O. again.

My comments were more out of sheer frustration than ex poste facto J.P. bashing.

As for insurance, that was my biggest fear when we signed AJ for 5 years.

On a team with an 80 mill budget an inactive 12 million dollar player is an albatross that almost precludes contention barring an organisational miracle (ie. incredible prospect development). Without insurance the next 5 years would have been very bleak indeed for Jays fans as a seventh of our budget would have been gone with no return whatever. This was all part of the gamble JP made.

Nobody is happier that AJ is ok than I, well nobody but JP of course...
rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:41 AM EST (#142980) #
(redo)

Torn ACL: I'm enjoying it. I was hoping for a Korea vs. Dominican Republic final. But whatever happens happens. Cuba is cool, so long as Fidel doesn't run by the pool.

I think once the Americans see another country actually win the WBC, they will get some motivation. What is worse, communist Cuba or the country that does everything America does, only better?
Ken Kosowan - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:46 AM EST (#142981) #
Please; TACL will do (Tack-le)

It's been spectacular to watch thus far, but it really has me thinking. What scouting are the Jays currently doing in the Far East.

If we listen to the Toronto Star's commentary (I try not to) then the Jays only scout white men who go to University and are ready to play with the parent club within 2-3 years.

However; the Jays have signed several Asian pitchers over the past two seasons.

My hope is that this tournament will encourage General Managers across MLB to actively scout nations such as South Korea, China and Japan, with the aim to bring these players overseas.

New York and Seattle aren't allowed a monopoly on Asian scouting, are they? :)
CeeBee - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 07:55 AM EST (#142983) #
I'm sure glad nobody on this site jumped to conclusions, got hurt jumping on or off the bandwagon and generally put their foot in their mouth. I've been reading this thread since it started and while it has provided a few laughs(burning stuff), a few scary thoughts(injuries), and a smile or two it's a bit like a train sim forum I'm a part of in that passion manifests itself in many ways. Sometimes it's better to let the chicken lay the egg before attempting to eat it as wiping egg off one's face can be rather emabarrassing as I've learned in the past.
Leigh - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 07:55 AM EST (#142984) #
Whether Burnett pitches 1,000 or 0 innings over the next five has nothing to do with J.P.'s astuteness. The actual result is only one of the myriad of outcomes that could occur given the circumstances of the process. If Burnett's signing was a good one, then it was a good one whether Burnett wins three Cy Youngs or his arm falls off. Focus on the process, not the outcome.
Mike D - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 10:07 AM EST (#142985) #
Very well said, Leigh.
Anders - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 10:28 AM EST (#142986) #
That's just the way the game is. The only player who means that much to his team is Babe Ruth.

I hear that that Bonds fellow was pretty good, although it might just be them steroids.

Has any player meant more to their team than Bonds in the last 40 years? Hell, ever? Babe Ruth's Yankees had this other guy, what's his name. He played a lot of games in a row. He died of Lou Gehrig's disease.

Mike Green - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 11:35 AM EST (#142988) #
I just got back from holidays. Did I miss anything?

Even with the departure of Dave Bush and Zach Jackson, there are several pitchers in the system who could fill in for Burnett, with little loss from what reasonably could have been expected from him, should he not be effective with the elbow troubles. Depth is good.

One of the problems with Burnett's contract is that performance expectations are raised. He's expected to go out there and deliver better performance than say, Gustavo Chacin gave the Jays last year. Those are not realistic expectations for fans, or the team, to have.
Newton - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 11:48 AM EST (#142989) #
Leigh, I did focus on the process several months ago when we made the signing.

These are not new arguments and I made them before we even signed AJ.

Viewed on its own the Burnett signing makes little sense, but in the context of the 2006 Jays it was, in my view, an acceptable risk (I say this as a died in the wool jays who really wants to compete this season).

That said, rightly or not, we do live in a world that renders judgement based on the outcomes of decisions rather than the merits of the decision at the time it was made.

You slug a guy in a bar fight he falls and hits his head on the curb and dies, you are guilty of manslaughter; if he grabs your fist and laughs in your face you attempt to run away... such is life. Same decision to slug, different outcome, different societal judgement.

eeleye - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 11:59 AM EST (#142992) #
So Mike Green, you're saying we paid a guy 55 million dollars to be a medioce pitcher?

What ARE everyone's expectations of him? i.e. what will make this contract a good one?

I propose the following: he gets 72 wins over 5 years (15, 17, 12, 14, 14)

-He does not miss a full year of combined action from injury

-He helps us to the playoffs and win a world series at least once in the next five years, which I think will be more likely within the next two years then the last 3 when our core team is intact. Doc wants to win "a couple of world series rings" by the end of his 5-year extension...

What is fair for us? What will cause us to lambast him and his signing as a mistake, specifically?
Mike Green - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:09 PM EST (#142994) #
Of course, outcomes matter, but one does need to take a longer range view. If one was looking at the management of the Twins and the Jays as of the end of 1991, the facts that the Twins had won 2 world series in the previous 5 years while the Jays had been a very good club for the previous 7 would both be relevant to the discussion.

"Died in the wool" Jays fan? I like sweaters, but not that much...
Geoff - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:12 PM EST (#142995) #
perhaps he meant dyed in the wool?
Geoff - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:18 PM EST (#142996) #
I've never heard such an expression, but maybe this is just a knitting mystery.
Newton - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:24 PM EST (#142997) #
I did mean dyed, although "died in the wool" is now on my must read list.






Mike Green - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:26 PM EST (#142998) #
Reasonable expectations of Burnett? That he continues to perform at the same level as 2004-5. That would mean, in the American League (a stronger league than the National) in a hitter's park (the Fish Bowl favours pitchers and in particular strikeouts), an ERA+ of about 110-115, with about 7-7.5 strikeouts per game. In other words, not quite as well as Josh Towers threw last year. With a better Jay offense, he could be expected to win 14-15 games.

The odds that he will perform that way, on average, for the length of his contract, are not great, but he might very well do so for a year or three. There are, of course, positive and negative contingencies; he might get a better handle on the strike zone and become a great pitcher, or he might be riddled with injuries and never really contribute.

In baseball, everything has a season. This is not the season for GM evaluation; it's spring training and time to enjoy what the newcomers to the team bring to the game, not whether the GM made the right decision to acquire them.
Newton - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:47 PM EST (#142999) #
Agreed. I started out speculating on JP's future in the wake of an injury to AJ, not on whether it was a good signing (which I consider to be an extremely interesting topic given the ballyhoo surrounding this deal in the baseball community). A subtle distinction perhaps but I never intended to get into the merits of the signing, which I supported without knowledge of whether the contract was insured or not.



HollywoodHartman - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:47 PM EST (#143000) #
"I propose the following: he gets 72 wins over 5 years (15, 17, 12, 14, 14)

-He does not miss a full year of combined action from injury

-He helps us to the playoffs and win a world series at least once in the next five years, which I think will be more likely within the next two years then the last 3 when our core team is intact. Doc wants to win "a couple of world series rings" by the end of his 5-year extension..."

"I mean, let's face it, if not now, then soon enough this will happen. And I don't think he's that good anyway, the way he's been pitching this spring training - he'll be lucky to have a 5 ERA this year."

Sorry eeleye I couldn't resist. As for our expectations 42% of Bauxites think an ERA ~3.70 (~3.40 was in second with 24%). Also 87% of Bauxites believed he's going to pitch between 190 and 210 innings.


Jim - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:48 PM EST (#143001) #
Focus on the process, not the outcome.

It would be nice if the baseball world always worked like this. It's an unfair fact of life that this offseason will define Riccardi's reputation. If these deals blow up and this team doesn't compete for the playoffs this year and next he probably won't recover as a GM. Certainly he's got the acumen to contribute to an organization but his career as a General Manager hinges on how this offseason works out.

A potential scenario:

Back to back seasons under .500. McGowan, Purcey, Romero don't develop. Burnett and Ryan are hurt and don't contribute. It would have seemed impossible when he was hired, but JP will have left the franchise worse off then he found it.

Now I'm not predicting this and I think it's highly doubtful. It is one of the myriad of possibilities and if it happens no one is going to care about process, only that the results were a huge disappointment.

cbm - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 12:55 PM EST (#143002) #
NFH wrote: Do pitchers who have Tommy John surgery re-injure themselves at a greater rate than pitchers who haven't had TJ surgery?

FWIW, Jerry was interviewing John Gibbons a few minutes ago on the pre-game show. Their shared view is that pitchers who have TJ surgery do not tend to re-injure that tendon. If this is true, this of course says nothing about other injuries, but their view appears to be that the replacement tendon is stronger than the original.
eeleye - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:03 PM EST (#143003) #
Here are pitchers who have successfully undergone Tommy John surgery. Make your own judgements about how these rebounded...

* Kris Benson
* Dewon Brazelton
* A.J. Burnett
* Paul Byrd
* Tom Candiotti
* Brandon Claussen
* Rheal Cormier
* Ryan Dempster
* Jesse Foppert
* Chad Fox (several times)
* Frank Francisco
* Eric Gagné
* Tom Gordon
* Mike Hampton
* Pat Hentgen
* Jason Isringhausen
* Billy Koch
* Cory Lidle
* Jon Lieber
* Matt Mantei
* Joe Mays
* Jim Morris
* Matt Morris
* José Rijo (four times)
* Mariano Rivera
* Fernando Rodney
* John Smoltz
* Chris Spurling
* Tim Spooneybarger (twice)
* Bob Wickman
* Scott Williamson (several times)
* Paul Wilson
* Kerry Wood
* Tim Worrell
* Víctor Zambrano

Batters:

* Rocco Baldelli
* José Canseco
* Luis Gonzalez
* Rusty Greer
* César Izturis
* Xavier Nady
* Mike Piazza
* Tony Womack
edtjeerd - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:05 PM EST (#143004) #
Sorry to go off topic, but is todays preseason game available over the internet? I can't listen to FAN590 because of blackout restrictions. I tried 980 in Peterborough, but it doesn't have the game.

Thanks!
eeleye - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:10 PM EST (#143006) #
One note on that list above, it is pitchers who have SUCCESSFULLY undergone the surgery. I thinkn this lost doesn't include guys who ended their careers after TJ. That list might be harder to find.
cbm - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:10 PM EST (#143007) #
Yes - go to Blue Jays MLB site. You need to sign-up...
C\\\
eeleye - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 01:13 PM EST (#143008) #
I see a lot of good closers in that list.
Flex - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 02:16 PM EST (#143010) #
Just tuned into the Fan in time to hear the very tail end of JP in the booth. Anyone know if he said anything interesting about Burnett or anything else?
cbm - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 02:33 PM EST (#143012) #
JP talked generally about everyone being relieved that the situation turned out to be not disastrous. Apparently Arnsberg probed the arm a bit when he came off the mound and thought it was a flexor vs a tendon issue at the time. JP generally appears to have tried to stay involved (which makes sense given the size of the investment!). Supported AJ's decision to shut it down "at this point" (i.e. during ST / irrelevant games). They will evaulate whether or not AJ will get the #2 start later (after AJ has a chance to throw a bit).

AJ (in a pre-game interview with MikeW) was asked whether yesterdays target of 80 pitches was achievable when he started again. He dodged a bit, but said it depended more on the elbow (i.e. pain?) vs shoulder (i.e. strength), as he would continue workouts, etc.

Reflecting back on earlier comments in this thread, JP denied being really fearful about the possibilities - You have to get used to what might happen and learn to deal with it. So if he ever felt his career was on the line yesterday, he seems to have adjusted to the prospect fairly easily...

I would like to hear more thoughts about the team-building potential of this scare. It would seem to be potentially good, yes???

Wildrose - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 02:33 PM EST (#143013) #
Geez, I think Pistol should sue these guys for copyright infringement or something ( no shortage of lawyers to choose from on this sight).
fozzy - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 03:07 PM EST (#143014) #
the game can be heard here.

http://www.cjcsradio.com/images/bluejays.shtml

click on the link on the left (you'll need realplayer)
Flex - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 03:11 PM EST (#143015) #
Thanks, CBM. That's a great report. Appreciate it.

By the way they were talking a bit the next inning, I got the sense JP might also have mentioned acquiring a minor league catcher. Was I imagining things there?
rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 03:22 PM EST (#143016) #
http://www.thebrushback.com/alpreview.htm

Depending on your sense of humor, you may enjoy this.

"(Corey Patterson) does have speed on the basepaths, though, which will be useful when a third strike gets past the catcher.)
rtcaino - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 03:23 PM EST (#143017) #
Re Taqmpa Bay:
"The pitching staff is the weak spot on this team, but they still have hope if Mark Hendrickson can regain the form that made him a winner in that June 8th, 2003 game against the Twins."
Geoff - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 03:43 PM EST (#143018) #
That's the best AL preview I've read this year. Almost every line is quotable, but none are worth wasting da Box's digital ink on. Besides, check the bottom of the page and you will be warned: Do not reprint without permission.

Clearly the Onion of sporting news.

Thomas - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 05:16 PM EST (#143019) #
FYI, the Red Sox have signed Juan "At-Bat" Gonzalez to a minor league contract.
Geoff - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 05:35 PM EST (#143021) #
They should give Juan a $1-dollar base salary that increases by 10% with each regular season at-bat. For that kind of cash, I bet he makes at least 150 at-bats.
Pistol - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 05:42 PM EST (#143022) #
"I think Pistol should sue these guys for copyright infringement or something"

Heh, I saw that. Of course I stole the idea when I saw someone at BP write that a particular player was one of the most valueable commodities in baseball. I just took that and thought 'who are the top handful?'.

It's worth a look at BA.
Wildrose - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 06:24 PM EST (#143026) #
I'm surprised Halladay lasted until the fourth round of this mock draft, and that he's been hung with the moniker of being injury prone.

I honestly think he'll be very productive over the next five years and that his extension is one of the best things Ricciardi has ever done. He's an aging pitcher though, so I suppose caution should be warranted.
HollywoodHartman - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 06:36 PM EST (#143030) #
Battersbox as it was March 26, 2003

http://web.archive.org/web/20030526184441/http://www.battersbox.ca/

Just thought that'd be interesting to see...
HollywoodHartman - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 06:43 PM EST (#143031) #
May 26, 2003. Sorry
Magpie - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 08:39 PM EST (#143033) #
A couple of quick notes. The TJ list should also include David Wells, back before he ever made it to the show. Matt Mantei also had rotator cuff surgery, before his TJ surgery. Because there is no surgery possible that hasn't been tested on Matt Mantei...

The Yankees did eventually get Babe Ruth some help, but not until he was fat and 30... :-)

cbm - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 09:39 PM EST (#143035) #
Flex wrote: ... I got the sense JP might also have mentioned acquiring a minor league catcher. Was I imagining things there?

Sorry Flex - I had to leave & so have no idea if you are imagining things or not ;)
westcoast dude - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 09:53 PM EST (#143037) #
David Wells must be the TJ success story of all time.
Here's a man, gravitationally challenged, started the All-Star game in 2000, had the great '93 season in Detroit, the Yankee Champion years, the awesome Blue Jays bullpen in '92, the hamburger commercial. He was smart, learned to pitch, had good luck and a great surgeon.
Jonny German - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 10:20 PM EST (#143042) #
Battersbox as it was May 26, 2003

Note that the thread links on those pages are functional, taking you into the archives of the current Batter's Box. You'll find much shorter threads, but lots of signal and no noise to speak of. The good ol' days, some of us would say.

Jonny German - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 10:30 PM EST (#143044) #
I got the sense JP might also have mentioned acquiring a minor league catcher.

Indeed. Mike Mahoney appeared in the game even, going oh-for-1. Apparently he's been in camp for a little while now, as he has a spring average of .800. JP was saying that he's a defence-first guy and will give them depth at Syracuse, "something we were lacking last year". Meanwhile, 2005 saw far too much AAA catching in Toronto.

JP's comment makes it seem he's positive he'll be saying goodbye to Phillips and/or Quiroz.

Geoff - Sunday, March 19 2006 @ 10:43 PM EST (#143045) #
the great '93 season in Detroit...David Wells?

What happened for him? Was he great in relation to his contributions to the awesome Jays bullpen of '92?

He was looking like a good workhorse pitcher in '94 and '95, but what were the highlights of '93?

Also must point out the rarity of somebody calling David Wells smart. He's doing a pretty good impression of a pain in the ass lately.

Pistol - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 10:29 AM EST (#143053) #
According to this article at BlueJays.com (http://tinyurl.com/zmg3t) Burnett has had 3 MRIs recently. One prior to signing with the club, one for insurance purposes and one this past weekend.

So apparently at least some part of Burnett's contract is insured.
eeleye - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 11:16 AM EST (#143057) #
On the bluejays.com article, Burnett states:

"It was something that was bound to happen when you have surgery like this," Burnett said. "I remember my doctor telling me in '03, 'You're going to have scar tissue break up and you're going to have it for years to come. It's probably going to make it feel better to have it break all up, and it's going to feel easier and more free than it has in a while.'"

Ok: so we're told he can start to resume throwing in 5 days after the tracer has disappeared. But that does not mean his pain for the scar tissue is gone. While this is good news, as JP points out in the article, that his elbow will probably be absolutely fine from the actual surgery, it makes me wonder what this problem of scar tissue will be like? Will he get sore a lot and have to wait it out? Can he make things a little worse by playing through the scar tissue business? It's like when you have a scab form, and you could pick it off, or let the skin underneath heal. It seems like he might be better off to not pitch when he gets this pain and wait for the scar tissue to crack up - no?
eeleye - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 11:19 AM EST (#143058) #
Anyway, I think if managed well, it will be good for the long run. Eric Gagne had his tommy john surgery in 1997, and it was in the 2000's when he became a freakin crazy closer. He almost had TJ surgery last year but had something else.
huckamaniac - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 11:22 AM EST (#143059) #
News: Reds send Wily Mo Pena to The Red Sox for Bronson Arroyo and cash.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2376683
Does anyone know if Nixon, Pena or Ramirez have experience playing first, or does this open up the door for a Man-Ram deal?
Geoff - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 11:27 AM EST (#143060) #
stupid Reds.

I'd love to see Manny playing 1B.
Thomas - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 11:50 AM EST (#143063) #
This trade's been rumoured for the last day or so. Arroyo's a decent starter and he's got a good contract behind him, but I still think the trade helps the Red Sox, and thus hurts the Jays.

I think with this deal you'll see Ortiz get more at-bats at 1B, in place of Youkilis/Snow, which will allow the Red Sox to move Manny or Nixon to DH a couple of times per week. Pena will also likely get some at-bats in place of Nixon against lefties. This will decrease Dustan Mohr's playing time (he was thought to be a platoon candidate with Nixon) and means that once Stern serves his time on the MLB roster he's almost certainly getting shipped back to Triple-A.

Pena's defence is supposed to range from bad to atrocious (the former in the corners, the latter in CF). However, he'll only play CF on the rare off-days that Crisp gets and any defensive shortcomings won't be incredibly detrimental. Pena's averaged 1 HR every 16.2 at-bats, which offsets his almost non-existant walk rate.

Arroyo was in contention with Papelbon to be the team's 5th starter and now Papelbon will get the job, at least until Wells is healthy. While losing depth in the rotation, particularly given Schilling and Wells's history, is not the best thing for the Sox, they still will have 6 starters kicking about in the majors. Furthermore, Arroyo was likely going to be on the outside looking in the future, with Papelbon and Lester looking to be mainstays in the rotation very shortly.

I feel a bit sorry for Arroyo - he signs a 3-year deal for slightly below market salary with the Red Sox and is traded several months later, before throwing another pitch for them.
VBF - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 11:53 AM EST (#143064) #
That deal's going to look pretty good from the Red Sox.

I've heard alot about how some pitchers rebounding from Tommy John surgery can become better and stronger afterwards. Is this breakup of scar tissue related to that?

Is anybody here a doctor!?
Geoff - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 11:56 AM EST (#143066) #
Is anybody here a doctor!?

Just throw another Sirotka jersey on the fire and you'll be okay.

Named For Hank - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 12:00 PM EST (#143067) #
Will he get sore a lot and have to wait it out?

I believe in this instance at least he'd be fine to play right away if it wasn't for the MRI tracer fluid.

As to waiting for the tissue to break up, without pitching it won't happen -- it's breaking up because he's pitching. I don't know how painful it is, or if he would have come out of the game if it wasn't Spring Training or if he knew it was just scar tissue.
Geoff - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 12:02 PM EST (#143068) #
If you want to feel sorry for Arroyo, pity him because he's going to the Reds.

On the bright side, Arroyo is the comparable for the Reds' #1 pitcher, Aaron Harang. So now they have two #1s! Isn't that great?

Nice to see that of all the offers they were getting for Pena, they went for a second #1.

Wildrose - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 12:23 PM EST (#143070) #
The arm is often stronger because a "new" ligament has replaced the old damaged ligament( some players even note an increase in velocity). The recovery rate for TJ surgery is quite good, but with any serious joint surgery post -operative pain and compications can occur.

The MRI for insurance purposes is interesting, I'd love to find out more details about this.

Now that the news on the Burnett front is relatively benign, I note absolutely no comment on Primer regarding how Ricciardi should be "burned at the stake" of what some perceive as sabermetric orthodoxy .
Newton - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 12:26 PM EST (#143071) #
Wily Mo for a reasonably priced innings eater/league average type.

This was a steal for the Red-Sox.

Arroyo should decieve NL batters in his first season and might post very good numbers, but his K rate dropped significantly in his 2nd season in the AL and one can only assume, barring injury and/or loss of stuff, it was due to hitter's familiarity with his bizarre delivery which does not bode well for his value in coming seasons.

Wily Mo has the power to hit 35 home runs as an everyday player right now, if you're willing to live with a .300 range OBP. He too could benefit from AL pitchers not knowing the holes in his swing in the early going.

I doubt he'll ever crack the 1.000 OPS mark but Wily will be a perennial .800-.900 type player.

Pistol - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 12:29 PM EST (#143072) #
I opened a new NFN thread about the trade.
Dr. Zarco - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 02:29 PM EST (#143087) #
Is anybody here a doctor!?

Wildrose is mostly right. But it's not just new replacing old. The old, bad, ligament (UCL) is replaced by a tendon (usually the palmaris longus, which, strangely, is not present in everyone). Tendons are stretchier and generally more durable than ligaments. The added stretch can be the source of the increase in velocity, although simply being healthy-perhaps healthier than before the actual "injury"-likely plays a role too.

Cristian - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 04:29 PM EST (#143100) #
According to this article at BlueJays.com Burnett has had 3 MRIs recently. One prior to signing with the club, one for insurance purposes and one this past weekend.

I'm not a doctor but I have read enough comics to know that given enough x-rays and MRIs, AJ Burnett might develop superpowers. It's not a given though. Maybe the Jays should dump radioactive waste on him to make sure.

greenfrog - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 05:50 PM EST (#143107) #
eeleye - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 07:22 PM EST (#143110) #
What does Blair mean here?

"It's part of the bargain, in other words, and ought to mitigate against too many flights of fancy regarding the teams position in the AL East pecking order."

And for goddsake's, somebody tell me how to italicize?????
6-4-3 - Monday, March 20 2006 @ 07:37 PM EST (#143113) #
Blair's saying that Burnett's injury problems are part of the package of signing him, and the fact that the team's #2 pitcher is almost certain to be on the DL at some part of this year should make people wary of the Jays' chances of winning the division or wild card.

To italicize, you need to put < i > brackets before the text that you want italicized, and < /i > brackets after that text, without any spaces. You then need to change the box that appears below the comment window from "plain old text" to "HTML Formatted". If you do that, you'll nead to put < p > and < /p > around your paragraphs in order to get spaces in between them.
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