Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - This Day in Baseball, World Series Edition: October 25

This Day in Baseball, World Series Edition: October 25

A few interesting items crossing the wires... and there's a game tonight, I understand?

The New York Yankees are apparently about to hire Larry Bowa as their third-base coach. This appeals to me on many levels. Let me tell you why.

Bowa has done very well as a coach over the years, and has always impressed the people he works for. And don't you think Boss George will see a little Billy Martin in him? And the longtime heirs-apparent to Joe Torre's chair - Willie Randolph, Joe Girardi - got so tired, tired of waiting, and took jobs in the other league.

Torre just couldn't walk away from the $13 million or however many dollars he still has coming to him this off-season. But he will, maybe after 2006, maybe after 2007. And won't Larry Bowa look like the Next in Line by then?

Good times are coming...

News from South Florida, where the Marlins are apparently shopping a very talented but very expensive first-baseman. They would like to sign Josh Beckett and Dontrelle Willis to long-term deals.

Jeffrey Loria assured Delgado last month that he wasn't going anywhere. Yeah, Jeffrey Loria gave his word. So where will Delgado end up? Florida will be looking for a trading partner who doesn't want the Marlins to pick up a large chunk of salary, which limits their options somewhat. A team with money that can use a first-baseman? There's the Mets, the Dodgers, but alas! there is also the Red Sox, the Orioles...

Mike Piazza appears to be through with the Mets, and I would imagine there's a very good chance he'll find himself in the AL. Piazza has caught more than 1500 games in the major leagues - and that's enough. It's not like he's Bob Boone back there. He's in line for a whopping pay cut (he made more than $16 million in 2005) - and it's a little strange that Piazza has hit much better in Shea Stadium than he has on the road. But I do think that if Piazza stops catching, we'll discover that there's a little bit of life left in his bat.

Game time is 8:00 tonight, in Enron Memorial. Pitching will be Jon Garland for the White Sox and Roy Oswalt for the Astros. The Astros have to have this one, it's in their park, and the best starting pitcher on either team is taking the ball for them. So I like their chances...

Posted by Magpie on Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 07:00 AM EDT.

This Day in Baseball, World Series Edition: October 25 | 34 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Jordan - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#130527) #

Delgado as a Met makes perfect sense to me, but that might just be wishful thinking -- I'd hate to see him with the Orioles, now that Baltimore has an actual GM. Jeffrey Loria -- baseball's answer to Tom Benson.

I'm sure there'll be talk of Piazza possibly DHing for the Blue Jays next season, but even taking into account the relief from catching, his name is now worth more than his bat. He hasn't hit more than 20 home runs for three straight seasons, and he barely broke .250 last season. I'd let someone else take a flyer on him.

Jordan - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#130528) #

Fun Piazza fact: he has 6 triples in 1,703 career games. He hit one of those triples during his 5-game mid-trade stint with the Marlins in 1998. So, 17% of his triples came in the 0.03% of his career he spent in Florida.

hugh - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#130529) #

Hah! Enron Memorial. I love it.

Also, there's an article in the Star urging MLB to institute the instant replay.
Pretty well thought out, although I still think the idea is ridiculous.

Flex - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#130530) #

I am torn about tonight's game. On the one hand, I love Oswalt and want the Astros to win, if only to make the Series more interesting. On the other hand, I want the Series to be over with so we can get on with the make-or-break off-season. On the whole, as a baseball fan, I guess I come down on the side of a good rather than quick World Series, but not by a big margin.

Go Astros...ish.

HoJu - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#130531) #

I've always been a big Piazza fan. I agree that a move to DH could inject some life back into that bat. Love to see him in a Jays uniform but I don't think thats gonna happen.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#130533) #

The resurrection of the bats of Adam Lind and Ryan Roberts in Arizona continued yesterday.

Original Ryan - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#130534) #

According to William Houston in today's Globe (behind the subscriber wall, so no link), Warren Sawkiw will be back in the radio booth in 2006.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#130535) #

Mike Piazza has about the same value at this point of his career as Matt LeCroy, maybe a little less. He probably can still hit a lefty well, and would make a good emergency catcher.

Rob - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#130536) #

According to William Houston in today's Globe (behind the subscriber wall, so no link), Warren Sawkiw will be back in the radio booth in 2006.

This link should work. It's one of the results, titled "No Yankees, no Red Sox, no viewers."

In any event, Houston does say that Sawkiw will be back. I can't say I like the thought of him next to Jerry for another 162 games. I stopped listening to away games on the radio because I knew there would be no chance of Wilner jumping in anywhere during the broadcast.

HoJu - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#130537) #

Yeah, you're probably right about LeCroy/Piazza. Piazza hit righties better but you can't argue with LeCroy vs. lefties.

Kieran - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#130546) #

I know it's ludicrous to suggest it...but the sentimental part of me would love to see Carlos Delgado back patrolling first base for the Jays. I realize his salary is likely out of our league, but I certainly did miss his production and middle of the lineup presence this year.

John Northey - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#130547) #

I think we'd all love Carlos back, but unless Florida covers all salary above $10 million (or taking equivalent back) I don't see it happening. The Jays seem to have put a sorta cap at $10-12 million on themselves at the moment as JP hates to put too many eggs in one basket.

Now, Piazza is tempting but only if he'll DH/catch vs lefties and take just $2-4 million imo. Not going to happen.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#130548) #

Today's birthday team features Pedro Martinez and Smokey Joe Wood at the top of the rotation, Andy McGaffigan and Danny Darwin behind them, Roy Smalley and Bobby Brown on the left side of the infield and Bobby Thomson and Al Cowens in the outfield. Our own Roy Hartsfield would manage. Notoriety would be present in the unfortunately named Russ Meyer, and Lee MacPhail would preside over it all.

AWeb - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#130549) #

If the Jays really wanted to contend next year, Delgado's the type of player they have to consider. Maybe 16 million a year is too much, but he's far more likely to have a huge year than someone signed for cheaper that might break out (ala Derreck Lee, David Ortiz). But anyway, I think this topic has been covered before.

I can't believe anyone whould consider signing in Florida long-term if they trade Delgado. Isn't signing someone to a backloaded contract, and then complaining he's too expensive (ONE year later, after a GREAT season), against the unofficial rules? Shouldn't you wait until either the team isn't contending (like ARod in Texas) or until the player is actually performing badly (Like Sosa in chicago), before complaining about the contract?

Florida wants to use the savings to sign Beckett and Willis? Why, so they can trade them in a year or two when they need to sign Cabrera? For some reason, this really annoys me. Oh, it's Florida, and the ownership group from hell, right.

Wildrose - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#130550) #

I think what's driving all this talk is that Florida was banking on a new publically financed ball park that legislators have apparently nixed.

Delgado's contract breaks down as follows:

2006-$13.5 million
2007-$14.4 million
2008-$16 million
2009-$12-16 million depending on performance ($4 million buyout)

He DOES NOT have a no-trade clause (although in-effect he could demand a trade after the 2006 season if he was traded mid-contract)

You have to ask yourself the following:

-Would Toronto be interested in such a singular big ticket item?

-Would he return long term?

-Is he worth it?

-What cost in prospects would the Marlins demand?

I think this issue needs a lot more debate.

Chuck - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#130551) #

If the Marlins can move the backloaded Delgado contract, doesn't Delgado then have a right to demand a trade after the 2006 season (having been traded in the middle of a multi-year contract)? Or am I mistaken?

I wouldn't expect the Mets, or whomever, to offer an extension so what else could they do to entice Delgado not to exercise his right to demand a trade?

And if he did exercise the right, how would the mechanics of such a deal work? The Mets, with 2 years and $30M owing to Delgado, would have no leverage in attempting to move him (insofar as they were being forced to). Would they have to eat as much of his contract as required to ensure that a deal could be made? Anyone know how these things work?

Wildrose - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#130552) #

I've often wondered about this as well Chuck. Javier Vasquez is in such a situation with Arizona. Has there ever been a precedent where player/team just could not agree? Usually a team agreeing to a trade will guarantee a potential vested option or extend the terms of a deal with the players agent beforehand.

Craig B - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#130554) #

Mike Piazza's defensive skills as a catcher are still fine, with the exception of his throwing. He blocks pitches as well as any catcher in the game, he is fairly reliable with his decision-making, and he calls a good game, communicates well, and is a leader on the field.

He is poles apart from Matt LeCroy, who doesn't have the mobility to block balls in the dirt and is seen as having all-around indifferent defensive skills. I don't know about his game-calling ability.

Piazza's throwing arm is terrible. Yes, if you think most of a catcher's defensive value lies in throwing out basestealers, he's a terrible defensive catcher. It's not, and he isn't.

Most full-time catchers who shift to another position, IIRC, see a bump in their offense when they do so. This makes intuitive sense, because of the wear and tear that daily catching puts on the body and the mind. I expect that Piazza would substantially outdistance LeCroy as a hitter if he kept his catching down to a backup's role, say 40-50 games, and DHed the rest of the time.

He has said he's unwilling to do that, so that would appear to be that anyway. I wouldn't want to play Piazza over Gregg Zaun.

Cristian - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#130555) #

How much flak would JP take if he reacquired Delgado and sent Koskie back to Minnosota? I hope it happens just to be able to read the ensuiing Dick Griffin articles.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#130556) #

The answer to the question- "is Delgado worth his remaining contract?"- is pretty clear. No. He's 33. If you look at his comps, it's a great list. McCovey. McGriff. Bagwell. Frank Thomas. Jim Thome. Even Albert Belle. But, they all declined significantly from age 33 through 34-37.

I expect Delgado to maintain his production better than most because of his dedication to physical fitness, but still, .270/.375/.500 with an average of 500 PAs is probably an optimistic look at the next 4 years. To pay $10-$11 million p.a. for that would be dangerous but perhaps justifiable. More is downright reckless.

If the Marlins want to get rid of the contract, they're the ones who should be throwing in the prospects.

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#130557) #

I can't speak for Piazza's defensive skills aside from throwing. These things are hard to measure, but very real.

However, when he moved to first base in 2004, his hitting wasn't helped much at all. I really doubt that he would hit better than LeCroy against a steady diet of lefties, bearing in mind his performance over the last 3 years and his age. But, as Craig says, Piazza won't accept a smaller role, so these points are moot.

Chuck - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#130558) #

But, as Craig says, Piazza won't accept a smaller role, so these points are moot.

Well, they're moot for the time being. It's not entirely clear that someone will hand over a starting catcher job to Piazza. At catcher, teams are more willing to err on the side of defense, a la Ausmus, Matheny, et al, than on the side of offense.

Any likely destinations for Piazza as a catcher? I'm not saying there aren't any, just that no obvious ones spring to mind. Unless Baltimore wants to look at a Lopez/Piazza job-sharing project at catcher/DH.

Pistol - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#130559) #

if you think most of a catcher's defensive value lies in throwing out basestealers, he's a terrible defensive catcher. It's not, and he isn't.

Craig - Is this an opinion or has there been recent work done on the subject showing that to be the case? Everything I've read in the past indicates that nearly all the value is in throwing out runners (and/or preventing attempts).

Ducey - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#130560) #

Ah, my early prediction of a Delgado dump looks like it is coming true!

I wouldn't have a big problem with Delgado next year or the following year. It is the year afterward that would kill the Jays: $16 million right when Carlos is likely to be on the decline. For next year, JP would have him for 6 million less than when Carlos last played for the Jays and he could trade him (at least in theory - $13 million dollar players with multiple contract years left are tought to move).

How's this: Toronto gets Delgado and an A prospect. Florida gets C prospect and pays $6 million in 2008 and $4 million in 2009. Toronto pays all the other salary.

Craig B - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#130561) #

Pistol, that is both an opinion (especially with regard to game-calling), a consideration of all the available evidence, and a consideration of statistical work that Tangotiger and I have done on catcher defense. There are substantial statistically measurable differences in catcher ability in terms of:

* ability to prevent wild pitches and passed balls
* ability to avoid making errors
* ability to pick runners off bases (distinct from caught stealing)
* ability to make plays on batted balls

These all make quite a bit of impact in the overall picture of a catcher's defensive contribution. Thurman Munson looked like a really good defensive catcher if you just looked at his throwing arm; once you counted all the wild pitches in, he was average. Benito Santiago's arm was terrific; he also made a ton of errors.

There is also substantial non-statistical evidence that catchers have a defensive impact in contributing to a pitcher's success, including but not limited to:

* blocking the plate (including receiving throws and tagging out runners)
* pitch and location sequencing (individual and team levels, game-theoretical interaction with hitters, etc.)
* "stealing" strikes (through framing, setup, technique, soft hands, and so forth - I am working on a study that hopes to show this statistically for the first time but I don't have a lot of hope for it)
* communicating with and coaching the pitcher and plate umpire
* setting the infield defense
* field leadership (in particular, promoting an atmosphere of defensive intensity and commitment)

Because catchers work together with pitchers as a team on every pitch, and because the catcher/pitcher interaction is probably the most important part of catcher defense, individual catcher defense is probably the hardest problem in defensive analysis. Double plays, because of the shared credit, are also difficult but it makes up a smaller part of the infielder's "account".

HoJu - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#130562) #

Mike Piazza (2002-2004)
1B 241 AB .228 .322 .382
C 782 AB .281 .365 .487
DH 50 AB .220 .322 .400

He didn't have any ABs at 1B this year. To this point in his career he hasn't been as successful when he's not catching.

Pistol - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#130563) #

How's this

Great if you're a Jays fan, but I think unrealistic. Delgado got 4 years and $52 million last year and the market is just going up (and perhaps going up a lot this offseason). I don't see why a team that needed a 1B wouldn't pay him 3 for $45 if he were a free agent this offseason, which is just a little less than his existing contract. The Mets offered a similar contract to Delgado as the Marlins this past year. I don't know why they wouldn't want him again this year if he was available. You take out Doug M and add in Delgado and the Mets might have taken the wild card this year.

What I think will happen is that the Marlins will trade Delgado and send $5-7 million with him and get a solid B+ prospect in return.

Pistol - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#130564) #

a consideration of statistical work that Tangotiger and I have done on catcher defense

Is this published anywhere or is it a work in progress? Sounds interesting.

Wildrose - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#130565) #

Mike I'd have to agree about Delgado, unless the Marlins threw in a lot of money, something I don't think they'd do given probable competing offers, the Jay's need to move on.

Craig your study seems interesting,( although a lot of that stuff may be nearly impossible to quantify). I think Zaun is a guy who doesn't throw particularly well and is subsequently thought as not great defensively, but does a lot of other little things that you mention quite well.

We sure have a long ways to go in measuring defensive value, particularly for catchers.

brent - Tuesday, October 25 2005 @ 09:58 PM EDT (#130569) #

I agree, it is time to move on. We have the biggest, most exciting off-season to look forward to since JP first started. Stop lamenting Delgado, and move forward. I am still glad they don't have his contract.

TangoTiger - Wednesday, October 26 2005 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#130593) #

I think Craig published something with Charlie Hough in particular (can't remember).

I published something here, based on Craig's discussion at the time.

http://www.tangotiger.net/catchers.html

VBF - Thursday, October 27 2005 @ 12:03 AM EDT (#130596) #

Can someone explain why the name 'Derek Jeter' was said 4(!) times in the ninth inning?

The love affair continues...

Mike T - Thursday, October 27 2005 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#130597) #

The final out was quite fitting.

VBF - Thursday, October 27 2005 @ 12:11 AM EDT (#130598) #

Jermaine Dye. Who woulda thunk it. Good for him!

This Day in Baseball, World Series Edition: October 25 | 34 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.