Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Jays 7

Yankees lose, Red Sox win.

Both teams at 90-64 with 8 games to go!

Consider this a follow-up to last week's game report. You know, the one that likely cemented my place as a persona non grata within the Jays inner circle.

I thought I should clarify a few things that I didn't make clear in that Game Report. My annoyance isn't with anyone in the Jays organization and it certainly isn't with J.P. Ricciardi. Rather my difficulty is with the entire organization. This isn't a contradiction - business organizations are rarely the sum of their parts. Poor internal policies and communications can turn even the most talented group of individuals into a dysfunctional team. I wouldn't say that the Blue Jays organization is dysfunctional - but as we've seen, there are problems.

Anyhow, if that Game Report did any good (and it wasn't my intention that it do good - I was just getting something off my chest), it seemed to inspire Jordan to write And We End As We Began, which might be the best piece every published on the Box. It's also, I believe, the longest non-Magpie piece of the season.

The focus has been put on J.P., which again, was not my intent, but it makes for a great discussion. My own view is that J.P. did a tremendous job on turning this organization around. The team was burdened by a ton of bad contracts and had been falling in the standings by around 2 games a year since 1998. What did J.P. do? He got rid of the bad contracts, without impacting the performance of the team one bit. In J.P.'s first year the team's wins fell from 80 to 78, which is where the team was headed before he arrived. But the team had shed a lot of bad contracts in the process. As we all know, in J.P.'s second season the team won 86 games.

I don't think the significance of this can be understand. Had JP's cost cutting moves caused the team to crater and lose 100 games a year, I honestly believe baseball would be dead in Toronto. The Jays make an obvious contraction partner for the Expos, and MLB would not raise the ire of Congress if it chose two Canadian teams to contract. Fortunately for Jays fans it did not work out this way - the Jays were decent on the field and drew enough fans to at least approach profitability. For us Expos fans the story did not have a happy ending.

I've disagreed with the Free Agent moves of the last two seasons, and I've usually been right (though often for the wrong reasons). With all the injuries they had last season, the Jays were simply not going to be competitive. However their critical lack of depth, particularly at the high minor league level, became painfully clear. Dave Berg, OF? Chris Gomez, DH? The organization did not seem to learn it's lesson last season, as it failed to sign any minor league veteran/AAAA DH/1B/OF types. It didn't hurt the Jays this year, as their outfield stayed relatively healthy, though the fact the Syracuse hasn't had a winning season in the last four is pretty telling.

I've talked in the past on JP's free agents have performed and I'll post the new figures at the end of the season. Other than Corey Koskie the most recent group of free agents haven't performed too badly, but as a group they come nowhere near matching the output of the free agent who got away: Carlos Delgado. Jays fans seem to finally realize how much he meant to this team, as there has been a lot of talk about the Jays desperately needing a second-rate Delgado imitation, like Paul Konerko or Adam Dunn.

In 1960 Bill DeWitt became General Manager of the Cincinatti Reds, a team that finished higher than 4th only once in the previous 16 years - a third place finish in 1956. The next season, the Reds made it to the World Series, and were competitive almost every season for the next 20. But what does everyone remember about DeWitt? It's not the winning seasons, it's the fact that he traded Frank Robinson to the Orioles because he was an "old 30". I've got a feeling J.P. Ricciardi will be this generation's Bill DeWitt - remembered not so much for turning around a franchise, but rather for letting a superstar slip between his fingers.

Posted by Pepper Moffatt on Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 09:33 AM EDT.

Jays 7 - Yankees 4 | 28 comments | Create New Account

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Dave Till - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#128806) #

I've often wondered whether Delgado's impending 10-and-5 status was the reason the Jays let him go. Had the club signed him to a new deal, they would have given him another no-trade clause by default, and would be forced to endure his declining years. (For reasons why this might be a bad idea, compare Jim Thome's 2004 stats with his 2005 stats.)

And, unfortunately, the Jays were forced to make a decision on Delgado before the sale of the SkyDome went through. Until Rogers got control of the building, they couldn't make a commitment to an increased payroll, so they couldn't afford Delgado.

But Carlos sure would have been a useful asset this year, as the 2005 Jays desperately needed a big bat in the middle of the lineup. Eric Hinske, despite all his hard work and effort, isn't it. And Delgado is a different physical type than the large lumbering behemoths who become roster anchors in their mid-30's; he's not fast, but he's athletic, and he works hard to stay in shape. He likely will retain enough value to have been useful on the Jays' playoff team of 2007.

And I agree that J.P.'s moves may have saved baseball in Toronto. Had the team cratered, they could well have been contracted. Things are now going the other way: baseball is becoming more fashionable, the Jays are receiving good press and word-of-mouth, the payroll's going to go up, and the Rogers Centre is a better place to watch a game.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#128807) #

And, unfortunately, the Jays were forced to make a decision on Delgado before the sale of the SkyDome went through. Until Rogers got control of the building, they couldn't make a commitment to an increased payroll, so they couldn't afford Delgado.

They could have afforded Delgado, if they really wanted him. Koskie + Schoenweis + Hillenbrand add up to likely more than what they would have had to pay Delgado for '05. Of course, it means that they'd have to go on the cheap for another infielder/DH and LOOGY, rather than purchasing known quantities for much higher prices.

Ducey - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#128808) #

I am a little surprised at the conclusion of your piece Moffat.

There is a big difference between trading someone because you think it is a good baseball move and letting a free agent walk because you can't afford him.

You know there is no way the Jays could offer Carlos artbitration and get nailed with a $15 million salary on a $50 million dollar salary. The reason we had put up with the Dave Bergs and Chris Woodwards et al is because there was no money to sign a real player. How would the Jays have done this year with Delgado at first and $15 million worth of salary missing in other places?

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#128809) #

You know there is no way the Jays could offer Carlos artbitration

You don't let it get to arb. Delgado made it clear to anyone who would listen that he wanted to stay in Toronto and was willing to work on making a deal happen. Instead, the organization decided that 2M/12 was a "fair offer" and let the man walk. They didn't even have to wait until the end of the 2004 season to offer him a new contract - they could have worked on an extension long before then, like many other teams do.

ds - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#128810) #

Interesting comment in Bob Elliot's latest column about the availability of Aubrey Huff. It looks like in return LeMar is looking for a player who is major-league ready, a minor-leaguer and a throw-in minor-leaguer, who hopefully can play down the road. Here's the link :

Pistol - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#128811) #

Aubrey Huff:

2003 - .922 OPS
2004 - .853 OPS
2005 - .746 OPS

That's fine if Chuck Lamarr is looking for the moon, but it's nowhere near realistic. Of course, Lamarr is likely out of a job in a month.

Looking at VORP, Huff is 155th in baseball and just ahead of Angel Berroa and is under contract for 2006 at $6.75 million.

I'm not even sure this would even be an upgrade over Cat, Rios or Gross, let alone giving up player(s) and paying Huff that much.

Braby21 - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#128812) #

word by Elliot..."... Aren't infielders supposed to wear sunglasses on a bright sunny days? ... Do telecasts really have to show the pitch sequence on four-pitch walks? "

Cheap shot at Aaron Hill for missing that pop up yesterday, I've played Baseball all my time, and I know that some guys just can't wear shades. Personally I don't see how it helps when you're looking directly in the sun.

Secondly I'm assuming he's talking about Sportsnet's telecast yesterday...I don't remember a 4 pitch walk, but I do remember Sportsnet doing it on Frasor's 5 pitch walk. Elliot is trying to be rough and tough like some American writers....he's trying a little too hard.

Cristian - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#128813) #

I'm sick of this being trotted out as an excuse. Are you telling me that Rogers didn't know the deal was pending? These deals don't come together in a few days. This deal was years in the making and the Jays could have acted as if the deal was going to go through--even if it wouldn't have closed for weeks or months. Rogers could have taken an educated guess on how likely the deal was to close. It's not like Delgado needed to be signed for 4 years. Offering him arbitration would have been sufficient.

Dave Till - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#128815) #

Deals can - and do - fall apart at the last minute.

Arbitration is another factor: the Jays had to either offer arbitration or a new contract before Delgado and his agent had had a chance to test the free agent market. If the Jays had offered arbitration, Delgado would likely have accepted, and his agent would have the club of a high arbitration settlement to use as a lever in negotiations.

To a certain extent, I'm playing devil's advocate here - I think the Jays should have kept Delgado. But there are legitimate points to be made on the other side of the argument.

Thomas - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#128816) #

Instead, the organization decided that 2M/12 was a "fair offer"

I recall the Jays lowballing Carlos, but I didn't think it was that bad of an offer. Although, keeping Carlos a Blue Jays through his early 40's would cement his spot as the franchise's best player.

I don't agree with your conclusions, either. I don't think Shapiro is going to be remembered as the man who let Jim Thome slip through his fingers. He'll be remembered as the man who rebuilt Cleveland into a contender in the 2000's, on the cheap. He'll be remembered as the man who traded Colon for Sizemore and Cliff Lee (and Brandon Phillips). Thome may be part of his legacy, but with his declining skills I doubt anyone in ten years will immediately associate that move with his term as GM.

Carlos, as expected by many, has had another fantastic season. I doubt anyone was expecting him to fall off a cliff right away. However, what will he do in 2007 and 2008 is a much bigger question and that could end up being the part of the decision that people remember JP for. If the Jays really do contend those years, as we are planning to do, then we will likely need money to attempt to sign some top-notch free agents. Having to pay Delgado top-tier money on the downside of his career may have hindered that, and I think that will be recognised.

JP's legacy will depend almost certainly on his moves in the offseason this year and next year. If JP manages to push the Jays into real contention, and hopefully the playoffs, he'll be remembered as a man who had a plan - maybe it took a year or two longer than we hoped to implement it, but nevertheless he came in here and fixed the organisation to contend going forward. If not, he'll be compared to Gord Ash - an Ash with more direction, but ultimately someone who has the Jays sitting in mediocrity for most of his tenure.

Ducey - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#128817) #

My, my, the speculators are out in force this morning.

Both the suggestion that the Jays knew they were going to get the Skydome and that Carlos would have signed if they offered him an extension are both speculation. I have a lot of trouble with the second suggestion in particular. While his agent was saying publically that Carlos wanted to stay (with a long term deal), you can bet he was driving a hard bargain behind closed doors. He had to know that the Jays were stuck at having him as a 10 and 5 (no trade) and offering him arbitration. He also knew that Carlos would get in the open market.

This contract extension then would have been a long term deal for at least $10+ million a year.

Sticking to the fact as we know them, the Jays would have been lucky to get Carlos at $15 million a year. Koskie, Hilly, and SS got $9.8 million this year. You therefore would have to find an additional $5 million to lop off on top of these guys. Best case senario you get rid of Hinske (how I don't know)and Cat. You go into the season with no 3rd base, no DH, Reed as starting OF, and no Loogy. Someone gets hurt and there is no depth at all.

Didn't the Jays just come off a 2004 when this was the senario? This team is better that what we had in 2005?

StephenT - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#128818) #

Let's assume the Jays would have been on the hook for $18m if they had offered arbitration to Delgado to be a DH/1B, and that he would have accepted it (which I think he would have). They could still have afforded it as follows:

Deduct Hillenbrand ($3.9m), Koskie ($3.5m), Cat ($2.7m) and Schoeneweis ($2.5m), which saves $12.6m. Add $0.9m for the 3 minor league replacements (e.g. Hill/Griffin, Gross, Downs/Gaudin).

The 2005 team is probably better: Delgado at DH/1B, Hinske/Griffin at 1B/DH, Gross in OF, Hill/Menechino at 3B, Downs at LOOGY and Gaudin as the extra long man.

(It would be nice to go back in time and drop the unnecessary $3.1m to Hinske, but we won't assume that here. We are assuming the Cat re-signing of late 2004 shouldn't have been done.)

The remaining $6.3m shortfall could have been borrowed from the 2006 budget (or more generally, from 2006-2012, i.e. $1m less per year for the next 7 years), which would be easy to handle if they didn't offer Delgado arbitration in 2006. If Delgado had a good year in 2005, then revenue should be up to help cover a lot of the shortfall anyway. Also, maybe that dome purchase would go through and the payroll could be bumped by $20m.

If Delgado had declined arbitration, I understand the Jays would have got 2 more draft picks (I'm not sure of the details).

I agree with Dave: you can make a reasonable argument for not keeping Delgado ($18m is overpaying even for him, so in principle the money could be better spent).

But offering him arbitration for 2005 was a reasonable course of action even if you assume no budget increase was forthcoming.

Mike Green - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#128821) #

That's interesting, Stephen T. $18 million in arbitration would have been on the high side after Delgado's off-season in 2004. On the other hand, the team without Hillenbrand and Koskie would have likely started the season with Hinske at third, as Hill's 2004 season in double A was not good enough to suggest immediate promotion. There would definitely have been a defensive cost to this scenario. I do agree that it would have been reasonable to offer arbitration, and at the time, I did say that I would have, but it is by no means clear that the net effect on the 2005 team would have been positive had Delgado returned.

Joe - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#128822) #

But offering him arbitration for 2005 was a reasonable course of action even if you assume no budget increase was forthcoming.

But that's just it: you can't just magically wave your hands and get the $6.3 million. You'd have had to go to Ted Rogers and ask for that money, and he would probably have said "Just wait until we buy the stadium; you'll have everything you need then."

jvictor - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#128825) #

Where was I when Baseball in TO was in peril. I grant that things were looking bad for the Jays, and baseball in general. But I recall no call to downsize the Jays. It just seems that in this last week it has become accepted wisdom that the Jays were doomed and that JP rode in on a white horse and saved the day.

Yes, I'm exagerating. But so are the claims that baseball in TO was in mortal danger.

Named For Hank - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#128829) #

This deal was years in the making and the Jays could have acted as if the deal was going to go through--even if it wouldn't have closed for weeks or months. Rogers could have taken an educated guess on how likely the deal was to close.

So in other words, you're certain that they didn't make an educated guess -- they didn't look at it and say "Hell, it hasn't happened in the last five years, why would it happen this time?" and decide not to increase the budget?

What's your source?

From what I read, the factor that convinced Sportsco to sell the 'Dome was that their dues were coming up for the luxury boxes (apparently the Jays got a yearly set amount payment for the luxury boxes and then Sportco rented them out for whatever they could get, which in the old days must have been a money farm) and Sportsco didn't have the money because of some other financial difficulty. Now, maybe Rogers had the corporate intel to know Sportsco's financial difficulties and maybe they realized Sportsco could be strongarmed into selling the 'Dome for a fraction of its cost, but do you think they could really bet on it to the tune of potentially killing the team's chances for years to come? Delgado wasn't looking for a one-year deal, remember.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#128830) #

I'm going to reply to a bunch of people at once here.

I recall the Jays lowballing Carlos, but I didn't think it was that bad of an offer. Although, keeping Carlos a Blue Jays through his early 40's would cement his spot as the franchise's best player.

You think $6 million a year for some of Delgado's stature is a fair offer?

RE: Early 40's. If you gave Delgado a four year contract, like the Marlins did, it would expire a few months after Delgado turned 36. He's only a year older than Corey Koskie.

I don't agree with your conclusions, either. I don't think Shapiro is going to be remembered as the man who let Jim Thome slip through his fingers.

Agreed. However Delgado is aging much better than Thome is and Delgado is two years younger. It will likely depend on what the Indians and the Jays do for the next few years. I think the Indians have a much brighter future than the Jays, largely due to the fact they play in a much easier division. Both the suggestion that the Jays knew they were going to get the Skydome and that Carlos would have signed if they offered him an extension are both speculation.

I never suggested that the Jays would have been a lock to get Delgado if they seriously negotiated with him. However, I'm suggesting that they at least should have tried, something they didn't do, unless you believe that J.P. was lying to the media, which I don't.

But this whole "Delgado would have gone to arbitration" business seems silly to me. Have you noticed that when it's one JP's guys, like Frank Catalanotto, that the deal can't be signed fast enough? Yet when it's Delgado, we all assume it would be this hugely long drawn out process that would go until the final minute?

RE: Skydome issue. I think the Jays should have tried to sign Delgado even if the Skydome deal didn't go through, because as I've stated earlier, I don't buy this business that the Jays didn't have the money. They would have to had made sacrifices, sure, but it could have been done, if they wanted it to.

But let's suppose that signing Delgado to a deal is a bad idea if the deal doesn't go through. Do you really have to wait for the deal to be signed in order to get Delgado? What if there's, say, only a 90% chance the Skydome deal gets done. It makes sense to me to sign Delgado, since the upside is so big, and take your chances that the deal goes through. If it doesn't, you may not get the Scott Schoenweis or Shea Hillenbrand you want. You may even have to shed some salary, like a Miguel Batista. To me, it seems like a gamble worth taking.

Sticking to the fact as we know them, the Jays would have been lucky to get Carlos at $15 million a year.

The Marlins got Delgado for $13 million a year, and Carlos did indicate that he was willing to give a hometown discount.

Koskie, Hilly, and SS got $9.8 million this year. You therefore would have to find an additional $5 million to lop off on top of these guys.

Assuming, of course, that you weight Delgado's contract equally between the three/four years and that he makes $15 per. But there's no reason we have to - we know Delgado would take a back-weight contract, because he did with the Marlins. He's making 4 million this year. So it's not a stretch to think you could sign him to a deal that pays him, say, 9 mil in 2005.

Ducey - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 04:50 PM EDT (#128832) #

Moffat, I am not going to go round again on this. I guess we disagree. I do think Florida is going to be unloading Delgado near the end of their deal when his price tag goes up and their stadium deal doesn't come through. As Carlos was 5 and 10 with Toronto they would not have had that luxury and the deal would have choked them all over again in 2008+

You seem to have really fallen off the bandwagon this year and I don't really understand why. The team is finally in a position to make a good push for for a lot of years. This year has been a great year developmentally for half a dozen guys (Adams, Hill, Rios, Chachin, Towers, Chulk, Fraser), a few guys have fallen from the heavens (Downs, Walker, Zaun to some extent) and bunch more have hopefully learned some things (Speier, Batista, Bush, Gross).

I don't begrudge the Jays organization. As soon as the $70 million a year was announced they could have gone all Washington and signed a bunch of veterans. They have acted conservatively and now are at the point where realistically if Lilly has a 2004 season, Doc is healthy, Koskie recovers to normal and they pick up a big bat or two they will really start to look like contenders. It looks sustainable for years to come. Whats wrong with that?

Rob - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#128834) #

I think Thomas was making a joke over this line...

Instead, the organization decided that 2M/12 was a "fair offer" and let the man walk.

...simply because it reads "2 million per year for twelve years." I got it, anyway...

Ron - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#128839) #

I'll just jump over all the place and add in my 2 cents:

- Paul Godfrey jumped into the Delgado contract situation. He offered Delgado a 2yr/12 million dollar contract to Delgado and publically said it was fair market value. Granted this offer was before all the big sluggers signed their deals (i.e Beltre, Sexson, Beltran, Maggie, etc...) So according to the Jays they did offer Delgado a fair contract offer. Looking at the contract Delgado got from the Marlins, it sure doesn't look like a fair offer now.

- It seems like the sides are split regrading the Delgado/Skydome situation. The Jays said they couldn't bump the payroll until the stadium situation was settled. As we all know deals can collapse at the last minute therefore Delgado wasn't retained. Personally I believe Delgado could have been retained before the stadium situation was settled. I feel like JP didn't want Delgado back. If you listened to the WWJP towards the last month of last season, you can tell he had very little interest in having his services. He publically told the fans (on WWJP) that the Jays went nowhere with Delgado in the lineup. He took up too much of the payroll and with him off the books he finally had the chance to go shopping. We all know he spent that money on Koskie, Hillenbrand, and Koch. It's up for debate whether JP made the right move or not. Personally I would rather have Delgado than those 3 players.

- The reoccuring theme I hear from some fans is that next year the Jays will contend for a playoff spot. I'm curious to hear why people strongly believe next year is the year.

Do you really trust JP with payroll flexability after what he did last off-season?

If there was any year for the Jays to sneak up on the Red Sox and Yanks, this was the season. I'll tell you why.

Red Sox:

- Have been without their ace closer for most of the season.
- Mr. Boston Curt Schilling has been pretty awful.
- The starting pitching of the Red Sox has been average.
- The bullpen has been shaky.
- Kevin Millar has badly dropped off.

Yankees:

- Suffered a huge rash of injuries to their starting pitching. Pavano, Wright, Mussina, Brown, and Johnson have all been injured this season. Those were the projected 5 starters at the beginning of the season. The injuries have been so bad they've had to plug in pitchers by the name of Small, Wang, and Chacon.
- Giambi got off to such an awful start their was talk of sending him to the minors
- At one point they were in danger of falling into 5th place in the division. They had a stretch where they went 1-9.
- Bernie Williams had fallen off so badly Tomy Womack was patrolling CF.

Depsite all that I have mentioned both clubs are still 91-64. The Jays are 15 games back of both clubs. In order for the Jays to make the playoffs next season they have to finish with a better record than one of these clubs.

And ironically one of the type of players the Jays will be looking to add this off-season is a Carlos Delgado type.

Gerry - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#128840) #

Carlos did not indicate he would give a home town discount, in fact he ridiculed the suggestion. He asked should the Jays not give me more money because of my contribution to the team.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#128842) #

You're right, Gerry. I guess the details got blurred in my head over time. My mistake.

What Delgado did say is he that he wanted to stay in Toronto. But you're right - he did publicly laugh off the suggestion.

Named For Hank - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#128843) #

We all know he spent that money on Koskie, Hillenbrand, and Koch. It's up for debate whether JP made the right move or not. Personally I would rather have Delgado than those 3 players.

And Schoeneweis, too, right?

I would love to have kept Delgado. But I would not have loved to have Delgado plus Dave Berg and Howie Clark and Scott Service. I've seen that team.

Gerry - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#128844) #

One other point...JP decided he did not want Carlos back. We can debate about whether Carlos would have come back but the issue is that JP did not want him. It's not just a Carlos issue, it's a payroll percentage issue, JP has made similar comments about potential free agents signing in Toronto.

Then, the issue is whether JP made the right choice in letting Carlos go, and it's not just a one year answer, it's a four year answer. When you sign a big money free agent in his thirties you usually get value in year one and two, but lose money in years three and four. Could it be that JP knew the Jays would be a better team with Carlos in 2005 but would be worse in 2007 and 2008? If you are assuming you will not win in 2005, and are playing to challenge in 2006 through 2008, then you don't want that big contract weighing you down in the back end of the deal.

Also I don't for a minute believe Carlos would have passed up $50+ million over four years to sign one year for $16. There are very few free agents who pass up $34 million.

Ron - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#128849) #

"And Schoeneweis, too, right?

I would love to have kept Delgado. But I would not have loved to have Delgado plus Dave Berg and Howie Clark and Scott Service. I've seen that team."

I forget about Schoenewis. I added up the salaries of Koch ($900,000), Hillenbrand (3.87 million), Koskie ($5.5 million), and Schoenewis (2.5 million) which equals 12.77 million dollars.

Just because if Delgado was brought back, that doesn't mean the likes of Berg, Clark, and Service would have been with the club. The first player that comes to mind as a replacement is Gabe Groos. I'm positive over a full season he would be more productive than Berg and Clark. Don't forget once the stadium deal went through JP would have been in a position to add payroll through trades (by the time the stadium deal went through the FA list was almost empty).

The reality is Delgado is no longer with the club and he's the type of slugger we should be looking at in the off-season.

I don't buy the stadium reason for not bumping payroll earlier in the off-season. Why didn't the Jays pressure SportsCo into hammering out the deal earlier so they would have more money to play with earlier. Heck going into FA I'm sure the Jays brass had a strong idea whether the stadium deal was going to go through or not. I'm sure JP realized last years crop of FA's was vastly stronger than this years crop.

Named For Hank - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#128850) #

Why didn't the Jays pressure SportsCo into hammering out the deal earlier so they would have more money to play with earlier.

Well, they'd been working on the deal for years. Like I posted before, what forced Sportsco to dump the 'Dome for a fraction of their original investment was other pressing financial problems combined with the upcoming luxury box money. I'm sure the deal could have been done sooner for a lot more money, but the final price paid was an absolute steal.

SK in NJ - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#128853) #

You have to look at it from JP's view. He walked into a situation where for the first three years of his tenure, he not only had to cut some $30 million off the payroll, but once he did that, he also had to penny pinch because one player (with a gigantic contract and no trade clause) was taking up nearly 40% of the payroll. Some of his small salary moves worked, others didn't, but the fact that he had to work around Delgado's contract is something he probably didn't want to do again (with Delgado or anyone). Which is why I'm not surprised that he went on the radio and dismissed the idea of paying big money to a slugger in the off-season.

We can argue for days whether it's better to sign one great player and pray when filling out the rest of the roster, or sign 3-4 good players with that same money. When the Jays non-tendered Cruz, they used the money to sign Catalanotto, Bordick, and Sturze (IIRC). Money to good use. Instead of signing Escobar, they went with Batista and Ligtenberg (looked good on paper, failed on the field). Instead of Delgado, it was Koskie, Hillenbrand, and Schoeneweis. Looks OK/unspectacular at this point, though Hillenbrand has been the best hitter on the team and Schoeneweis has been good, but Koskie was hurt for two months and hasn't produced as expected.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to JP not wanting to deal with contracts that could potentially alter what he wants to accomplish. Delgado with his huge arbitration figure and 10/5 rights presented such a scenario (Delgado said he wasn't going to give the Jays a hometown discount, IIRC).

Will it pay off? Well, the Jays are a sub-.500 team this year, which is astonishing considering they've spent most of the second half with a struggling offense and a starting rotation of Chacin, Towers, Bush, Downs, and McGowan. Assets have been accumulated, and flexibility is there. I think being legit contenders is very doable for next season and beyond.

Magpie - Sunday, September 25 2005 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#128856) #

Speaking of the Marlins, despite Delgado's September heroics (.392, .495, .785, with 7 HR and 18 RBI in 22 games), they've lost 9 of 11 and can pretty much forget about the post-season. And it's not pretty. Here's A. J. Burnett after today's game:

"I've got one more start here, and that's all that matters," Burnett said in an apparent reference to leaving the team as a free agent. "It's depressing around here. There's nothing positive around here. There's nothing positive on the staff now."

And here's closer Todd Jones in today's Miami Herald:

"I plan on seeing what's out there,'' said Jones, who signed a $1.1 million free agent deal with the Marlins in December. "That doesn't mean I don't want to come back. I'm pretty happy here. [But] there's a lot of questions around me and what am I'm going to do. And there's a lot of questions around [the Marlins]. So I'm going to see what happens.''

Jays 7 - Yankees 4 | 28 comments | Create New Account

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