Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

I'm not writing a Game Report today.

I refuse to continually support a business organization as thoroughly dysfunctional as the Toronto Blue Jays.

Friday was the last straw for me. Once again the Jays showed how far away they are from being a World Class organization.

Have you noticed that with the Jays that it's always someone else's fault? I respect J.P. Ricciardi, but I'm sick and tired of listening to him bad mouth the fans on Wilner's show. Yes, it's the fans fault that they don't come out more and that they don't make the RC a "scary" place for the opposition. It has nothing to do with poor marketing or with the fact that middle management does whatever it can to scuttle any attempts to bring atmosphere to the Dome. It has nothing to do with lame in-game promotions that distract from the core product. It's you lousy fans!

Sure, the Jays on pace for their third losing season in four, but it's not management's fault. It's that darn Alex Rios. He just doesn't hustle enough. And how can we possibly compete in a division with two well run organizations like the Red Sox and Yankees? We're victims of circumstance!

I'm not a Rogers shareholder, so I'm not sure if their other divisions do this. Does Ted Rogers or Gar Emerson go on TV stating, "Sure, we missed our quarterly projections by 30%, but we're in market segment with a big company like Bell. How are we supposed to compete? Plus our customers aren't nearly as vocal about their love for our cellphones as they should be. It's not our fault!"

Cheering for the Indians is starting to look very, very good.

Posted by Pepper Moffatt on Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 09:22 AM EDT.

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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Thomas - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#128203) #

I agree with what you said Moffatt, except if you're questioning the decision to pull Rios, as I would certainly have taken him out of the lineup for not hustling. There's no excuse for a young and healthy player, struggling or not, to fail to run out a routine play. I think sending the message of, "If you don't want to play we've got a lot of people on the bench who want your spot" is fine. Otherwise, a fine mini-rant.

jmoney - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#128204) #

Bottom of the ninth summed up my frustration.

Two on, none out. Heart of the lineup coming up.

Koskie strikes out. Hillenbrand, double play.

I know its just one inning in one game, but yuck.

costanza - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#128206) #

Hmm... I guess one fan's "pointless negativity" is another fan's "justified griping"...

Jim - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#128207) #

This is great, it's like everyone turned into me overnight.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#128209) #

except if you're questioning the decision to pull Rios

Not at all. The point is, it's always things like, "Wells is swinging at too many bad pitches", and not "Maybe we've done a poor job of teaching him pitch selection" or "Maybe we've done a poor job of choosing which players to put on the roster".

Dave Till - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#128210) #

To be fair, Koskie's strikeout was after a long battle, and the double play was a great defensive play. Sometimes, you just have to tip your cap to the other team.

I didn't hear J.P.'s comments, but if he's ripping into the fans, that's not cool. The fans don't owe the team anything, and attendance actually has been pretty good given the club's lack of recent post-season success.

I've said all along, semi-facetiously, that J.P.'s greatest weakness as a GM is his lack of luck. A luckier GM would have seen Phelps, Gross and Rios develop into quality hitters; there was no real reason to suspect that Phelps and Gross wouldn't move forward. (Baseball Prospectus even put Phelps on their cover one year.) And a luckier GM would have had a healthy Halladay in the rotation all year.

The problem is that each step up the ladder gets exponentially harder. To make it past the 85 win plateau (which is where the Jays languished for several years in the 1980's, and where they would be right now if Doc was healthy), they need to either get very lucky with their farm system or spend a fair bit of money and spend it wisely. The Jays need a whole lot of hitting, and there's not likely to be enough of it out there.

And J.P. might not be the person best suited to spending Ted Rogers' cash, if Rogers is serious about budget increases. J.P. cut his teeth on the Oakland model, so spending money probably seems just plain wrong to him; I wouldn't be surprised if he is already starting to think about cashing in Wells and others for future investments, the way Beane does.

However, it's not all doom and gloom:

- The Jays have been strongly competitive all year, even if "competitive" means coming back from 6-0 down to lose 6-5. The organization is certain to be more attractive to potential free agents than it was a year ago.

- They're still a young team. Players like Adams and Hill are likely to continue to get better.

- J.P.'s best option is to make a success of his time in Toronto. His dream job, GM of the Boston Red Sox, has been successfully filled by someone much younger than he. And since I doubt that a Massachusetts boy would willingly take on the Yankees' GM job if it ever comes open, there aren't really any better options available on the job market.

- At least the Jays have some hope for the future. Compare Toronto with Baltimore. I'll bet you feel better already. :-)

- And, eventually, Steinbrenner will exhaust his bottomless supply of cash. Won't he?

Keith Talent - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#128211) #

Thanks Moffatt, I've thought this for years when JP used to go on TV - the broadcasters would be "hey, isn't it great we get to see our division rivals more?" and he would start whining that IT'S NOT FAIR - he does sound like a baby sometimes.

And if he can't get good players: NOBODY WANTS TO COME TO CANADA. (I know that's BS, Gillick had no trouble with this.)

I didn't hear him talk about the fans. What did he say exactly?

Dave Till - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#128212) #

And one more thing, after seeing Pepper's comments: I am now of the opinion that pitch selection can't be taught. Or, rather, it can only be taught if a player has the necessary inborn ability.

It's clear now that Wells has almost exactly the same skill set as Joe Carter at the plate. Like Carter, Wells just doesn't have the ability to fine-tune his pitch selection. Most hitters don't.

Dave Till - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:07 AM EDT (#128215) #

And yet one more (sorry about the message bombing):

I've thought this for years when JP used to go on TV - the broadcasters would be "hey, isn't it great we get to see our division rivals more?" and he would start whining that IT'S NOT FAIR

Actually, the Jays' natural rivals are Detroit, and they're in the Central.

And I think J.P. has a point. The Yankee payroll is over $200 million, and the Red Sox payroll is very high. It's hard to compete with that.

If the Jays had been in the AL Central all these years, they would have won the division in 2000 and 2003, and would likely be contending this year. (Imagine getting to play Kansas City over and over and over again!)

Jim - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#128216) #

They are at a disadvantage, but the GM shouldn't publicly state it.

Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#128217) #

And if he can't get good players: NOBODY WANTS TO COME TO CANADA. (I know that's BS, Gillick had no trouble with this.)

This is revisionist history , other than the early nineties when the team was indeed the highest spender in all of baseball, this has always been a problem. Molitor, Morris, and I suppose Clements, all came here because the team outbid their opponents and they were veteran players who joined a perennial contending team with a chance to get a ring.

greenfrog - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#128218) #

JP now has a lot more money than winning teams like Oakland or Minnesota (and Cleveland? I'm not sure), none of which attract the major free agents. Good GMs produce results in the long run. It's time to put up or shut up.

If the Jays aren't hustling, we've got a serious problem. I thought we'd addressed this issue by adding quite a few character players--guys like Hillenbrand, Hill, Adams, Koskie, Johnson. Do we really still have this problem (say, more than other competitive teams)? I haven't seen enough of the team to know--any comments?

Another thing--it's utterly embarrassing that the Jays can't execute bunts in critical situations. Just awful. Can you imagine if yesterday had been the decisive game of the season, ALCS, or (god forbid) the world series? I'm sorry, but when you're down 1-0, home half of the ninth, nobody out, runners on 1st and 2nd, and a struggling and slow hitter at the plate (and a struggling lineup generally), and a good hitter on deck, and a good bullpen to boot, you *have* to bunt.

DepecheJay - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#128219) #

Luck? We're blaming this on luck now? Okay, so some hot young prospects didn't pan out, could it be that the coaching staff is to blame? After all, they do handle these players every single day for the entire season. And who hires that coaching staff? You guessed it, Mr. Ricciardi himself.

I'm sorry, but I can't blame this solely on bad luck because look at a team like the Atlanta Braves. Every year they have hot prospect after hot prospect come up and simply produce. Nobody is expecting EVERY player to become a star, but atleast do SOMETHING to help the team. Everyone credits fine management for the Braves success, why is it so wrong to credit poor management for the Jays failures?

And to Moffatt, I agree with you 100%. When I think of the Jays, I just think of mediocrity and tons of people being OKAY with mediocrity which is the scariest part to me.

Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#128220) #

The team will only have more money starting in 2006 than the afor- mentioned teams. I'm not sure what the fair interval is to assess a G.M. in "the long run".

jsut - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#128222) #

I think this offseason and next season success (or lack thereof) will determine JP's future in the blue jays organization.

Paul D - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#128223) #

This is revisionist history , other than the early nineties when the team was indeed the highest spender in all of baseball, this has always been a problem.

Nonsense. Getting players to play in Canada has never been a problem. I can think of two exceptions in the Jays history: Steve Kline and Mark Davis. This is not a problem. People point to players like Matt Clement, but that ignores the fact that Clement took more money and went to the World Series defending champions. This is the case most of the time when people point to players not coming to Toronto. The reason some people (like Tim Worrell) choose other places is because they're closer to home, better environment, don't want to switch leagues, etc. It's only after the Jays lose out on a player that we hear that the player didn't want to come to Canada.

smcs - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#128224) #

Molitor, Morris, and I suppose Clements, all came here because the team outbid their opponents and they were veteran players who joined a perennial contending team with a chance to get a ring.
I assume you are talking about Roger Clemens. I think Clemens also had a bit of revenge on his mind also. He left Boston because they didn't think he could perform anymore. Dan Duquette even said that he thinks Clemens was in the twilight of his career. Clemens wanted to show him that he was as good as he ever was. What was the best way to do that? Join a Division Rival. I think Clemens proved his point winning the next two Cy Youngs and had that masterful game in Fenway where he stared down Duquette with the Death Eyes.

And if he can't get good players: NOBODY WANTS TO COME TO CANADA.

I do think that the Jays are at a distinct disadvantage because they are in Canada. PLayers may be ignorant of the fact that it is very close to States or they just want to stay in the States.

I've thought this for years when JP used to go on TV - the broadcasters would be "hey, isn't it great we get to see our division rivals more?" and he would start whining that IT'S NOT FAIR - he does sound like a baby sometimes.

Well, it isn't fair, but the Jays have to live with it. THey have to play the Defending Champs 19 or 20 times and they have to play the Perrenial contenders 19 or 20 times and they have to play a Baltimore team that was very good for the first half of the season 19 or 20 times. The White Sox and Cardinals have very good teams but it doesn't hurt when you get to play their division rivals that are much weaker than the Jays division Rivals. Having said that, if the Jays want to be a contender, they have to beat the good teams.

Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#128225) #

Paul ,I think its incumbent on you to make an itemized list of the marquee free agents you have mythically ascribed as flocking to Toronto.

Oleg - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#128226) #

The onus is on you to show the ones who've rejected coming to Toronto.

Pistol - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#128227) #

"However, it's not all doom and gloom:"

In addition to Dave's comments:

* The Jays have also have a run differential of +57, right which puts them between the White Sox (89-58) and Twins (76-71). And the Jays don't play the Royals as much (-211 run differential). This team is better than their record.

* Additionally, they've played the past two months without the league's best pitcher who was injured on a fluke play (and remarkably still 2nd in the AL in VORP this year) which also has a ripple down effect on the bullpen (since they're used more without him eating innings).

* There's significant money available to improve the team.

* There's plenty of tradable players throughout the organization.

As far as I'm concerned the organization today is in the best position its been in since 1993.

Oleg - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#128228) #

And let's remember this years' trading deadline if the Jays are still .500ish in 2007. J.P. had a number of players (Hillenbrand, Catalanotto, Batista) who are sucking up payroll, more likely to decline than get better, and are simply helping the Jays stagnate in third place. The fact that these guys weren't moved is simply ridiculous.

Sure, he's had some bad luck with Phelps. I thought he was going to turn into something too. Gross wasn't bad luck, though. He was a decent, but by no means stellar prospect. And I never had much faith in ~~Corey Patterson~~ Rios - one high BA year is nothing to anchor one's hopes to.

J.P. was supposed to be a big player development guy, but the state of the farm is really not that good. It's an okay system, but certainly not stellar. Given the number of third place finishes and the fact that Jays should have been sellers at the deadline for the last five years, it should definately be better.

The only thing J.P. has done is trim payroll by getting rid of some of the deadwood when he came in. However, with Hillenbrand, Koskie, et al he's just turned around and created his own deadwood. All in all, very demoralizing and lightyears away from what I thought the Jays would be like in 2005 when Ricciardi was hired.

StephenT - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#128230) #

Indians payroll is $42m, Jays payroll is $46m, according to http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2005 .

Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#128231) #

I'm afraid Oleg I'm not Gord Ash/Pat Gillick/ or J.P. Ricciardi, how could anybody except these individuals make such a list!

Is it raining in Ontario, or is all this angst mass seasonal affective disorder?

StephenT - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#128232) #

To make it past the 85 win plateau (which is where the Jays languished for several years in the 1980's...)

The Jays were above 85 wins every year from 1983-1993 (averaging 91 wins per season, even if you exclude 1990-1993).

Tyler - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#128235) #

You're going to be in trouble when JP reads this Pepper. I smell an angry phone call from Florida in your future.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#128236) #

LOL. I'd be more than happy to give him my home phonenumber. :)

Paul D - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#128238) #

Paul ,I think its incumbent on you to make an itemized list of the marquee free agents you have mythically ascribed as flocking to Toronto.

Wildrose, I think it's incumbent on you to make a list of Free Agents that didn't come to Toronto simply because it's in Canada.

I suspect however, that you won't be able to do it, because such a list doesn't exist.

With that said, I think people are maybe going a bit overboard on JP in this thread, but I've long thought that one of his weaknesses is a refusal to admit any past mistakes. I know I'd feel a lot better if when he was on the air with Wilner he'd at least say something like "yeah, letting Eyre go for nothing was a mistake" or "Yeah, Lopez turned out pretty well", instead of just putting down former Jays, and giving cryptic comments about some (like Lopez... I understand that there were personality conflicts, but simply saying that he was never going to be a Blue Jay doens't do much to increase fan's confidence in you).

Ron - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#128239) #

Damm this thread is negative. I have a lot of things to say about the state of the Jays but I will save that for the season ending review/report card/state of the franchise thread.

I do agree JP rarely admits making a mistake. Heck off the top of my head I can't think of him publically admitting making a mistake. I've been surprised at all the positive callers on WWJP in the past month. It was nothing like last season when it seemed like half of the callers were full of venom.

I'll just conclude by saying I don't have confidence the Jays will contend for the World Series (regardless of payroll) as long as JP is the Jays GM.

Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#128240) #

Paul I can't make such a list because I'm not privy to the details of just who was offered a free agent contract by the team . In other words I'm not an insider.

You on the other hand, if you truly believed in your assertion, could simply make a list of marquee free agent signings made by the team in say, the last ten years. If you'd take the time to do so, I think you'd be surprised.

greenfrog - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#128242) #

If I'm correct the payroll increase was for 2005-07, effective before this season even started (but after the Delgado decision had to be made). I'm assuming that JP hasn't spent any money since the payroll decision because he's been saving the bulk of the 3-year budget for free agent signings and trades in '06 and '07. The problem is that there aren't a lot of first-rate players available this off-season--which means that free agents will be overpriced, and trades will be harder to execute (because opposing GMs will demand everything under the sun for their talent).

Paul D - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#128243) #

You on the other hand, if you truly believed in your assertion, could simply make a list of marquee free agent signings made by the team in say, the last ten years. If you'd take the time to do so, I think you'd be surprised.

Wildrose, I absolutely believe my assertion. You said that the Jays face problems because they're in Canada, yet can't offer any evidence that this is the case. The Blue Jays haven't bid on any marquee free agents since Clemens (unless you count Clement), so of course there's no list of marquee players in Toronto. The question is, does being in Toronto the city hurt the Jays? I say that the answer is no, and that there's no evidence that it's the case. The Jays are hurt by the fact that they haven't beel all that good since they won the Series, not their location.

ds - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#128244) #

Here's a hypothetical question:

Say next year there is no free agent that JP is able to convince to sign. So instead of over paying, he hoards his budget for 2007. That will give him approximately a $100 million dollar payroll. Does he then go on a spending spree while front loading his contracts, or does he hope that Rogers will carry over the same budget (ie. 210 million) for another 3 years, and continue along the same plan?

Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#128245) #

My evidence is that Ricciardi, the man who actually deals with these issues, has said explicitly, that getting players to sign in Canada, all things being equal, is difficult.

How do you know the Jays have not bid on marquee free agents and have been turned down? Not all free agent offers are public knowledge.

If Toronto was a prime destination for free agents, obviously more such creatures would exist. In the last 10 years the only prominent marquee free agent to sign with the team, besides Clemens , who claims he was duped by Beeston, is Randy Myers.

Common sense dictates the following, free agents prefer to sign with:

- a team perceived to be competetive.

- a team in a warm year round climate.

- a team that is close to their home town/ and our spouses hometown.

- somebody who offers more money.

Unfortunately the Jays in recent times have not made many of these criteria.

Wildrose - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#128246) #

Another caveat I'd include with free agents;

-sign with a team that you have a good friend on (e.g. Schoeneweiss-Washburn, Arnett-Burnett)

Nick - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#128248) #

The whole idea of which city has "better" fans is often misperceived and wildly so. Everyone and their brother loves to talk about how great and passionate Yankee and Red Sox fans are. Let me let JP in on a little secret - it's about winning and it's about stars. Let's compare attendance statistics for when the Jays were going to the playoffs and winning World Series championships to the last 4 years' attendance records:

NYY:
1990 - 24,771/game
1991 - 23,009
1992 - 21,589
1993 - 29,839

2001 - 40,807
2002 - 42,736
2003 - 42,785
2004 - 47,788

Toronto:
1990 - 47,996
1991 - 49,402
1992 - 49,732
1993 - 50,098

2001 - 23,690
2002 - 20,209
2003 - 22,215
2004 - 23,417

Before anyone says anything, I understand that Skydome was new in the early 1990s and that probably helped, but the Yankees are supposedly the premier franchise in all of major league sports with the pedigree of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, etc. so I think the new stadium advantage is somewhat offset by that. Boston was not selling out every game like they do now until the last couple years. It's about winning and it's about having stars. Yankee and Boston fans are going to the games to cheer for competitive teams with a real shot at winning the World Series and cheering on stars like Alex Rodriguez, Randy Johnson, Derek Jeter, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, etc. Now it's not JP's fault we don't have those kind of stars. But to expect Toronto fans to come out in droves to see a team with no compelling big-name stars and that has had no real chance at the playoffs, much less the World Series, in the past 10+ years is ridiculous and dare I say ignorant and just plain stupid. There is a core of hardcore fans in every city. Some cities have larger cores than others, but to fill up the stadium, you need the people on the fringes to be interested. If JP really made any comments that it is the fans' fault that the Yankees are essentially playing home games in Toronto, I fear that our GM does not have the intellectual capacity to run a major league franchise or that his ego is so enormous that he feels it is easier to shirk all responsibility for his ineffective performance and instead get into a public battle with the people that pay his salary.

loquax - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#128253) #

Hopelessness - The only thing worse than having less money than your competition is when your money is worth half as much in the first place.

http://reds.mostvaluablenetwork.com/?page_id=401

Lefty - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#128257) #

Is this supposed to be some kind of revelation that JP Ricciardi has little or no respect for Blue Jay fans?

I actually believe he has no respect for Canadian baseball fans generally. For me the last straw with Ricciardi was the annual state of the franchise comments at the end of the 2003 season.

I wish I could remember well enough to attempt to paraphrase, but won't venture it here in this post. I do however recall I was livid and wrote as much on the Batters Box threads of the day.

So it seems the personal shine enjoyed by Ricciardi is starting to wear off on others now.

Heres what I did when I first recogized the guy wasn't my cup of tea. I decided this isn't about personality, its about performance. I said at the end of last season that it will be fair to start judging his performance by this past trading deadline and this offseason. I have stood by that and will continue too.

As some have said already in this thread and I am convinced they are right, Ricciardi missed another window at the deadline, one he doesn't get back. No great shakes free agents are on the realistic horizon. So Ricciardi's shelf life is starting to close in I think.

To me it seems like Ricciardi just copied the corporate model of the eighties and ninties, slash operating costs, add to shareholder value, but contribute little or nothing to the the product.

And Pepper, I wonder if your post contributed to Godfrey appearing in the broadcast booth today? Well stated, thank you.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 08:28 PM EDT (#128258) #

I doubt I have that kind of power over Paul Godfrey. What did he say? Like my post indicated, I'm fed up with this organization, so I wasn't listening/watching the game. I chose Old Navy over the Jays, and $150 later, I still don't regret my decision. :)

jgadfly - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#128263) #

PaulD...4wiw...imho...I agree with Wildrose...the struggle to find a DH and 1B with power was the downfall of the late 80's teams..."Stand Pat" Gillick couldn't sign any free agent of consequence because as we were told "there was a reluctance to come to Toronto" ...whether it was a foreign country with high taxes and cold weather, a team that didn't have a strong baseball tradition and was an afterthought in US recognition and marketing, or combinations thereof it just wasn't happening...Gillick and the BJ's couldn't turn the FA corner until they had the mega $$$ from the SkyDome and the farm system to acquire via trade some of those who didn't really want to come here (eg. David Cone, Al Leitor, Rickey Henderson) and those that came came for the $ and for the possibility to win it all (eg. Morris, Stewart, Winfield and then Molitor) Remember the "Good Old Days" of "buying the hired gun" accusations and how unamerican it was to play a WS somewhere beyond the 48 states... and remember the higher than average contracts to keep Delgado & Gonzalez after losing Olerud, Greene, Leitor, Henke, Cone to the bigger markets and bigger advertising revenues available south of the 39th... GOOD LUCK to JP in trying to sign a FA power bat for 1st or LF...Delgado may have been paid an awful lot of money but he may have actually been worth it...if only because he was here and that the costs of replacement might be even more if they exist at all... sometimes it seems that there is an additional "rate of exchange" that must be paid to come to Toronto (to explain it another way... $2million to play hockey in Atlanta or Columbus VS $1M to play in Toronto or Montreal ...where would most hockey players want to be ?)

Named For Hank - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 09:31 PM EDT (#128266) #

Is this supposed to be some kind of revelation that JP Ricciardi has little or no respect for Blue Jay fans?

I don't think that's really true. What kind of control do you think he has, directly, over stadium security? Hell, last year they weren't even working directly for the team, were they? I'd be stunned if he knew that any of this was going on.

Named For Hank - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#128270) #

This is great, it's like everyone turned into me overnight.

Everybody hates Edie Brickell
All my favourite shows are on TV
All the restaurants serve my favourite food
'Cause now everybody's me

Now my apartment's really crowded
'Cause I live there and I'm everybody
And everybody's sleeping with my girl
But, hey, everybody's me

Now everybody's me
Now everybody's me
Now everybody's me
Now everybody's me

Everybody's got hairy feet
Everybody spouts high philosophy
Everybody's got a nephew named Jeff
'Cause now everybody's me

They had to lower all the basketball nets
'Cause everybody's only 5 foot 3
And everybody likes to dress like a monkey
'Cause now everybody's me

Now everybody's me
Now everybody's me
Now everybody's me
Now everybody's me

God bless the Dead Milkmen.

Keith Talent - Sunday, September 18 2005 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#128282) #

and remember the higher than average contracts to keep Delgado & Gonzalez after losing Olerud, Greene, Leitor, Henke, Cone to the bigger markets and bigger advertising revenues available south of the 39th

Good God, there is so much wrong with this statement I won't even begin...

Gitz - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 02:04 AM EDT (#128289) #

I think the most important thing to remember is ... wait a minute. Moffatt, you spent $150 at Old Navy?????

Magpie - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 04:42 AM EDT (#128293) #

Good God, there is so much wrong with this statement I won't even begin Chuckle. Let me try...

They didn't lose John Olerud to a bigger market. They didn't like much like him anymore and traded him away. They also traded Shawn Green away, in exchange for a guy with an even bigger contract. They didn't want Tom Henke anymore, and pushed him out the door, to Texas. They did lose David Cone to the bright lights and big market of Kansas City, but Ghillick said very plainly that his big FA priority after 1992 was re-signing Joe Carter. I'll give you Leiter, and point out that you're forgetting that Alomar, White, and Molitor also left that same off-season as free agents.

the struggle to find a DH and 1B with power was the downfall of the late 80's teams

Gosh. I seem to remember the late 80s Blue Jays having a first baseman who led the league in home runs - big tall chap, named McGriff - so there may have been other problems as well...

Flex - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#128300) #

And it's the 49th, not the 39th...

VBF - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#128301) #

WHOAH!

I leave for two days and come back to all this!

I was at every *every* game this homestand. I was the 2nd one in the Dome and the 2nd last to leave every day. I loved how the Jays played this series (and I do realize this discussion isn't necessarily about the team playing) and it was great to see the Jays fighting as much as they did. It was great, and I can't wait to get my hands on 81 tickets for next year.

This is what I see (and what I hope Brain Giles sees too):

-a young .500 team
-a solid pitching staff
-a team with a solid and dedicated fan base
-alot of young pitching
-an above average payroll
-a playoff contender with conditioning of the younger ones and acquiring of two key players
-a team that is *ALWAYS* in the game
-a team that fans can connect with

With luck and some timely hits, we could actually be on a 9 game winning streak right now just as easily as what we're at. And if we were, all this misdirected pessmism wouldn't even be here.

Mike Green - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#128310) #

Brain Giles

Well, he sure is a smart hitter. We'll have to see if he's interested.

Can this team win in 2006? They've got a good core of young talent, and the team has actually been pretty good in 2005. The GM has money to spend in the off-season. On the other hand, the Red Sox are, if anything, likely to be better thanks to their fine young pitching and middle infield prospects. The Yanks have been pleasantly surprised with the development of Cano, and as usual, will have money to spend. I still think 92-95 wins will be required. To achieve that goal, the GM will need to learn from some of the mistakes that he made in 2004-05, most notably not ensuring that the team has an adequate bench (OF in 2004, C in 2005).

jgadfly - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#128319) #

Keith & Magpie...Sorry about your blood pressure guys...I did preface my remarks with "4wiw" & "imho"...Perhaps I also should have said "from what I recall" or "if I remember correctly" and "generalizing is always a problem"... I definitely should have said "mid to late 80's" for the time period but ... Willie Upshaw - Season 85/86/87- HR 15/9/15 (granted Fred McGriff hit 34 in 88)...Opening Day DH's -1985...Jeff Burroughs -1986...batting 8th Cecil Fielder (83 ab)but mainly Cliff Johnson & Reggie Leach -1987...batting 8th Fred Mcgriff in his Rookie year but mainly Juan Beniquez & Cecil Fielder -1988 George "I don't want to be a DH" Bell but mainly Beniquez/Fielder/Mullineks -1989...batting 8th Nelson Liriano but mainly Rance/Bob Brenly/Lee Mazilli...what's wrong with this picture ?
Perhaps it was the failure to sign an adequate FA DH that I remember as being so frustrating in those years but I do also remember the discussion around this failure as being very similar to what JP is saying now (as if it is news to J's fans) It's too bad that JP didn't consider this earlier.
As for the players leaving "if I remember correctly"... Shawn Greene was going to sign for big bucks and forced the J's to trade him to a bigger market - Mondesi in return sounding like the best viable option - and I still believe that Greene's actions led to the Delgado & Gonzales deals ... John Olerud traded at a loss to big market Big Apple for ??? as a favour to JO with the J's paying most of his salary ... Tom Henke signed with StL because the J's had Duane Ward as obvious heir apparent... Leiter ( shrug? - who knows how he justified it?) is Leiter... one of the points that I was trying to make was that a player's career seems to gain importance & notoriety when they leave Toronto than when they are here (eg . Alomar, Key, Wells, Clemens) and that this seems to or may enter into a player signing with Toronto... again gross oversimplifications & generalizations but it is "4wiw imho" my thoughts on the matter

jgadfly - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#128321) #

Thanks Flex !!! what's a few hundred miles between friends anyway

Jim - Monday, September 19 2005 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#128322) #

'C in 2005'

He clearly didn't learn from C in 2004.

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