I just hope that the Jays don't bring back Lilly next year. If they can trade him, great, but I can't see any team giving up much for him. I can't stand watching him pitch anymore. Halladay, Chacin, Towers, Downs and a free agent starter would be fine by me for next year's rotation.

That was a nasty slider Cabrera had going. If he can pitch like that more consistently, he'll be a definite asset to Baltimore's staff. I'm not surprised they have been reluctant to trade him.

It seemed like Lynx Stadium tonight. Young, Marcum, Rakers and Griffin were all players I saw in Ottawa recently (not to mention Gross, Freire, Byrdak and (earlier this year) League and Hill (and Newhan supposedly was there but I don't recall seeing him). Also, lots of empty seats.

I saw Marcum hit 91mph on the Sportsnet gun (his fastball was typically 88mph in Ottawa). He threw strikes against the #8 and #9 hitters, but seemed nervous after that.

Griffin's debut was against Rakers, whom he probably had faced a few times this year.

I too saw Marcum top out at 88 earlier this year, he probably had a lot of adrenaline going tonight.

Marcum was also throwing his change up too hard tonight, again probably because he was jacked-up, it was coming in around 84/85 when it should have been around 78-80. We need to see him pitch again to see a better change-up.

I just hope that the Jays don't bring back Lilly next year. If they can trade him, great, but I can't see any team giving up much for him. I can't stand watching him pitch anymore. Halladay, Chacin, Towers, Downs and a free agent starter would be fine by me for next year's rotation.

I agree with this statement completely. Lilly has done very little over his career, despite his talent, to view him as a #2 in anyone's rotation. The Jays need someone much more reliable to pitch behind Doc than this guy. I have no faith he will pitch a good game when he takes the ball.

and a box score featuring about a dozen members of the 2003 New Haven Ravens

Now, I thought this was a throwaway line. You see, I've missed most of the news from the last few days. I didn't see Marcum's callup coming at all, though I should have, what with his Rule 5 status.

And I know it was intentional hyperbole, but: Adams, Griffin, Gross, Rios, McGowan. That's five, which strikes me as remarkable, especially when you consider Bush, Chacin and Quiroz were also on the roster.

I saw Marcum hit 92.

Am I the only one who hasn't lost faith in Aaron Hill? I don't see any of your mentioning him when you discuss the Jays future stars. The only reason he's been doing so awful (in terms of getting hits, he still makes contact) is because he's never getting a chance to play in consecutive games anymore. He maybe starts 2 games a week, making it very hard for him to keep his timing sharp at the plate, and making him a little rusty in the field. I hope the Jays lock this guy up for a long time, I see batting titles in his future.

I like Halladay, Downs, Towers, Chacin and Bush for next year.
Lilly is pretty much a write-off; the kind of guy that gives us lefties a bad rap. Showcase him one more time against the Bosox and if they show any interest, so much the better. It'd be like the Huns sending Lenin back to Russia in a sealed train to foment revolution.

""I hope the Jays lock this guy up for a long time, I see batting titles in his future.""

I don't know about batting titles, but we do have him for the next five years.

In Richard Griffin's Column the other day he speculated that Gibbons is playing Hinske so much in hopes of increasing his trade value. Hopefully by that line of reasoning, Aaron will be a full time player next year.

It does stink that we started his clock a year early. I'd rather have him as an everyday guy in 2011 than as a super sub for 2005.


Is it possible that throwing out of the pen as opposed to starting contributed to Marcum's increased velocity? Also, what changes is Marcum making coming out of the pen? Will he cut down on his pitches? What pitches are his most dominate?

Lilly was great last year, and has had flashes of dominance this year when healthy.

I'd like to keep him for another year unless there's a much better option. I'd be in favor of signing Burnett and Lilly, keeping Chacin for the #4 and then letting Towers, Downs, and Bush compete for the last spot. I still think Lilly can be a useful player as long as you're not counting on him being your ace...

""Lilly was great last year, and has had flashes of dominance this year when healthy.

I'd like to keep him for another year unless there's a much better option. I'd be in favor of signing Burnett and Lilly, keeping Chacin for the #4 and then letting Towers, Downs, and Bush compete for the last spot. I still think Lilly can be a useful player as long as you're not counting on him being your ace...""

Lilly had a perfect game in the 4th when he went down with his injury. I was beginning to get the sense that he was getting his act together.

I could see Lilly being used as a stopgap. Perhaps until McGowan or Jackson are ready to get the call.

The thing is Lilly is that it seems like he's either really good or really bad in his starts and never anything in between. He's a really streaky pitcher. Once he gets in the groove, he's dominant and is a good #2 pitcher, but when he's not... he's a borderline #5.

Definately have to agree with Caino on this one.

Look at what the A's did with Dan Johnson. Hes now a productive 1B right out of the minors because they left him down there at each level for an entire season.

In retrospect it's easy to say they shouldn't have called up Hill. Don't forget when he came up bashing that he helped keep them in the playoff race.

Can you really be worried about 2011 at this point? If 2006 is the season the Jays 'really' compete then you'll be happy that Hill has a year of experience and isn't going through his rookie season.

Dan Johnson didn't get a year at each level because of some grand master Billy Beane plan - Beane blocked him at the major league level, but finally had to use him when Durazo was injured.

Further to Jim's take on Caramon's Dan Johnson - Billy Beane comments:

Hes now a productive 1B right out of the minors because they left him down there at each level for an entire season.

Do you really think that's the long and the short of it? Perhaps Dan Johnson has some, I don't know, talent or ability? Maybe he's worked with some good coaches? I don't think you can put that "because" there without some additional information.

He also just turned 26, so he should hit the ground running.

Two things: Do you really want to count on SCOTT DOWNS to be part of the Jays rotation?? That's kind of like the Yankees counting on Aaron Small to duplicate this years performance. Do you think AJ Burnett is pitching himself out of the Jays price range??

I saw Marcum hit 91mph on the Sportsnet gun

Does sportsnet get its speeds from the OPACY stadium gun? Because this is known to be pretty generous

Nicton,

Downs was also PCL pitcher of the year in 2004. Maybe he's finally figured something out. All I know is that he pitches smart and down in the zone, which to me looks like a guy who knows what he's doing.

Lilly's control is erratic at the best of times, and the coaching staff has no confidence in him. I can't think of a bigger indictment of a player. He certainly doesn't give me any more confidence than Downs.

Do you think AJ Burnett is pitching himself out of the Jays price range??

He can't really pitch himself out of the Jays price range because the range is big enough to beat most teams. It's going to be up to JP as to how much he wants to spend on him.

And because I just spent $200 bucks for a Downs jersey, yes I hope he is in the rotation next year.

I don't think you want to rely on any one guy but it's not like Downs is doing it with smoke and mirrors. He's keeping his walks down, he's doing an ok job of keeping the ball in the park, and he's striking out people. He struck out 11 his last time out. I don't think we're going to see many nights like that again but as a long reliever and spot starter he's done the job. I think you can rely on him as much as Chacin, Bush, and Towers at this point.

If you mean reliable for next year, I don't agree. I do agree that for the last 7 starts, he's been the best starter (better even than Towers or Bush). I also agree that over that span he hasn't been lucky, he's been all the things that R Billie says. However, he also has a pretty long body of work to suggest that he's not that good. Now he's had arm trouble and there are occasions when 29 year old journeymen become above average major league pitchers - just not that often. My only point is to say that if the Jays annoint him one of the 5 starters next year, they'd better have plan B available because the odds say that he'll fail. I do think he's the perfect long man/emergency starter for the pen.

Sure there is a plan B: promote from within.
You have to leave space for one of the young starters to step up....otherwise you're just repeating the Koskie/Hill situation all over again.

Dave Bush has now pitched 200 major league innings, and his performance has been in accordance with reasonable expectations after a fine minor league career. That is to say, he's been an above average pitcher. If he gets his K rate to 6 per 9IP or higher, he will in my opinion give the Jays a few prime-era Doug Drabek seasons. The chances of this happening are enhanced by the fact that he was not overused while young, and that he has been injury-free to date. Starting the season with Halladay, Chacin, Bush, Towers, Downs as one's starting rotation with Purcey, Banks, Jackson, McGowan and League waiting in the wings seems to me to be an excellent position.

It would not be a shocker if Marcum added a couple of mph on the heater coming on in relief instead of starting.

Mike - I think that a rotation of Halladay, Towers, Bush, Chacin and Downs has some serious risk to it. I worry that the last 6-8 weeks of performance will convince the front office that that rotation will provide a level of performance that can't be sustained (see: offense, 2003). I agree with you about Bush and think that there's no reason to suspect that he can continue (if not improve) with his current production. However, each of Towers and Downs have a large body of prior work that suggests that they are not nearly as good as their current numbers suggest. Chacin doesn't have the same prior history but his peripherals aren't that strong and unless he can improve his control I'd wouldn't be surprised to see him regress. It's possible that each of Towers, Downs and Chacin will be able to replicate their performance but I think the odds of more than one of them doing it aren't very high (my money would be on Chacin to improve his control). However, even having said all of that, if it becomes a choice of spending money on offense or pitching then I would vote for spending it on offense (and going with that kind of rotation) because of the current imbalance in the minor league system. There are near ready major league pitching prospects. There is no help coming on offense.

I don't think there will be any delusions of grandeur in the front office as far as Downs, Bush, Chacin, and Towers are concerned. In fact, because of Josh's age and his ERA being out of synch with his strikeout rate I hope they consider using him to deal from strength (serviceable starters) to fill a weakness elsewhere.

I still expect them to go after a starter with Burnett #1 on their wishlist. If they get that starter AND keep Lilly around then they would have four potentials for two spots with Bush and Chacin probably being favoured (though as I speak Downs already has 5 strikeouts in the 3rd against the Orioles).

Make that 6 K's as he gets Tejada for the second time. It's possible that the big season in the PCL combined with working with Brad Arnsberg has helped downs find another level in his game. Whatever it is he is in the zone these last two games.

There were rumours that Houston might consider trading Roy Oswalt. I could see that happening if Clemens retires, although it would take one heck of a package to get him. I'd like Roy and Roy and Spread the Joy though.

If Roy squared is a possibility, that would be pretty cool. Although it would probably cost us something like McGowan + Jackson or something along that line. Oswalt, unlike Burnett, is a proven Ace and is someone that would definitely be worth the price. Just imagine the headlines.

I think you're looking at a package of Chacin/Bush, McGowan, and League to get a guy like Oswalt. And that might not be enough. Maybe throw in Rios as well. Though if there's a guy I would make that type of trade for it might be Oswalt.

He seems to have one health concern or another each year but he is in that upper echelon of starters just a tick below Halladay. He's a second ace.

He would be a free agent after 2007 and with a 2006 salary of $11m he's not exactly going to be a great bargain. But he could be some insurance for Halladay if you can only sign one of the two after 2007. And in the meantime you have him and Halladay (hopefully healthy) supported by Lilly and others.

Maybe you sign Burnett for good measure and try to cruise with a stacked rotation though you'd hardly have any money left after that unless you start moving out Batista and Hinske and Hillenbrand money.