According to Mike Wilner on the Fan 590, the Blue Jays announced about 15 minutes ago that Halladay's broken leg has not healed as well as they had hoped, so they're shutting him down for the season to recover.
I posted this in the other thread before this new thread was created:
Halladay's one big injury away from getting the injury prone label.
Wasn't Doc off crutches in less than 10 days?
It's a shame 2 out of the 4 years so far in his big contract has been wasted with injuries.
I hope Doc fully recovers from this injury and he's 100% healthy for next season.
Halladay's one big injury away from getting the injury prone label.
Wasn't Doc off crutches in less than 10 days?
It's a shame 2 out of the 4 years so far in his big contract has been wasted with injuries.
I hope Doc fully recovers from this injury and he's 100% healthy for next season.
Time to officially close out the Cy Young chase and turn out the lights on the Playoff Bandwagon. Oh, well.
Searching for the silver lining .... now there's no possibility of rushing him back too soon from his broken leg, and his arm will have that many fewer innings on it in the contention years of 2006-07.
Searching for the silver lining .... now there's no possibility of rushing him back too soon from his broken leg, and his arm will have that many fewer innings on it in the contention years of 2006-07.
I don't think it would be reasonable to consider this towards being "injury prone", as it was a bizarre fluke that he was smacked in the leg with a ball.
If he had stumbled on a rock, maybe, or if he had injured himself in the course of his normal delivery....
If he had stumbled on a rock, maybe, or if he had injured himself in the course of his normal delivery....
There is no way this injury moves Halladay in any way closer to injury-prone status. His leg was fractured by a line drive from a very strong hitter in Kevin Mench. That's like calling someone an insurance liability because a drunk driver rear-ended them. Doc is a workhorse and will remain a workhorse.
More details:
There's a chance that he still might make one or two starts at the end of the season, but it's highly unlikely.
He had a CAT scan on the leg a few days ago and it still hadn't fully healed, prompting this decision.
Courtesy of Mike Wilner on the Fan 590.
There's a chance that he still might make one or two starts at the end of the season, but it's highly unlikely.
He had a CAT scan on the leg a few days ago and it still hadn't fully healed, prompting this decision.
Courtesy of Mike Wilner on the Fan 590.
Why wouldn't they have the Cat Scan? Or Bone Scan which is probably what he had...BEFORE he started throwing. This was a very poor job of handling their franchise player's injury by the Jays. He should have never been throwing so soon, they should've waited until the leg was fully healed, and then let him do his thing. B/c of trying to rush him back, we've now wasted him for the year. I'd expect a professional sports franchise to treat their players better, but I've heard of two cases from guys that I played Baseball w/ this year of how the Jays treat their minor leaguers, so I'm not too surprised.
Wasted him?
If anything we have saved him for the next 2 years when we will need him most...
If anything we have saved him for the next 2 years when we will need him most...
I think this is a good move - there's no point in taking even a slight risk that a sore leg affects his arm in a meaningless September start. I think the interesting thing will be if McGowan continues to struggle - will they stick with him? There's a fine line between getting someone experience and hurting someone into the future. I think he'll be fine but if not, I hope there's an alternative (Lilly? if not Lilly then who?).
There is no way this injury moves Halladay in any way closer to injury-prone status. His leg was fractured by a line drive from a very strong hitter in Kevin Mench. That's like calling someone an insurance liability because a drunk driver rear-ended them. Doc is a workhorse and will remain a workhorse.
By no means am I blaming Doc for the injury. Plain and simple it was bad luck. But he has missed large chunks of the past 2 seasons now due to injuries.
I'm just hoping he's 100% by next season and he stays healthy from start to finish. If the Jays expect to contend for a playoff spot, they're going to need 220+ inning from him.
Wasted him?
If anything we have saved him for the next 2 years when we will need him most...
Are you serious? Why not "rest" him next year until we see if we're going to contend. If we start slow, then keep him out and save him for another 2 years when we will really need him.
If anything we have saved him for the next 2 years when we will need him most...
Are you serious? Why not "rest" him next year until we see if we're going to contend. If we start slow, then keep him out and save him for another 2 years when we will really need him.
This was a very poor job of handling their franchise player's injury by the Jays. He should have never been throwing so soon, they should've waited until the leg was fully healed, and then let him do his thing.
There is no way that he can make the injury any worse by walking, running, throwing, putting weight on it, etc. The only additional damage could come from getting nailed with another batted ball or some other kind of blunt trauma like that. The throwing was, in fact, promoting healing in the bone.
In light of that, Braby, do you change your opinion of how they've handled the injury? They can't make it worse, and putting weight on it is making it better, it's just slower to heal than they had hoped.
There is no way that he can make the injury any worse by walking, running, throwing, putting weight on it, etc. The only additional damage could come from getting nailed with another batted ball or some other kind of blunt trauma like that. The throwing was, in fact, promoting healing in the bone.
In light of that, Braby, do you change your opinion of how they've handled the injury? They can't make it worse, and putting weight on it is making it better, it's just slower to heal than they had hoped.
While we all might hate Kevin Mench for Halladay's injury, for some time now I actually think he might be my number one target for an offseason acquisition. He wouldn't be cheap; I'm under no illusions here in terms on what Texas might want (I think it would start with major league ready pitching like Chacin). But he's only 27 and is posting this line: .281/.350/.518 (and before people talk about his home park - his home/road split is a pretty solid .292/.363/.526 vs. .271/.339/ .509). That production is entirely consistant with what he did last year as well. He's got solid strike zome command and plays a capable (think F-Cat), if not spectacular, LF.
There is no way that he can make the injury any worse by walking, running, throwing, putting weight on it, etc. The only additional damage could come from getting nailed with another batted ball or some other kind of blunt trauma like that. The throwing was, in fact, promoting healing in the bone.
In light of that, Braby, do you change your opinion of how they've handled the injury? They can't make it worse, and putting weight on it is making it better, it's just slower to heal than they had hoped.
Everything isn't always all gravy in regards to the Jays Aaron. Why would I change my position? When you tell me that you can't make a broken leg worse by putting too much weight on it? or by Running on it?? Are you kidding me? His leg obviously wasn't healed, and he did exactly that, and look where we are now?
I broke the same bone last year, Doc didn't break the entire bone, it was a stressfracture, the same as mine. And what happened to Doc, was he put too much weight on it, and tried to do too much before it was fully healed, so obviously the stress fracture isn't healed, so he's probably back to July, another 6 to 8 weeks.
It was pour judgement by the Jays, they let a guy who wants nothing more to pitch, decide his future. They should've stepped in and told him that he needs to relax and let his leg heal, but they didn't, and now we've gone another year into Roy's contract, with nothing to show for it.
In light of that, Braby, do you change your opinion of how they've handled the injury? They can't make it worse, and putting weight on it is making it better, it's just slower to heal than they had hoped.
Everything isn't always all gravy in regards to the Jays Aaron. Why would I change my position? When you tell me that you can't make a broken leg worse by putting too much weight on it? or by Running on it?? Are you kidding me? His leg obviously wasn't healed, and he did exactly that, and look where we are now?
I broke the same bone last year, Doc didn't break the entire bone, it was a stressfracture, the same as mine. And what happened to Doc, was he put too much weight on it, and tried to do too much before it was fully healed, so obviously the stress fracture isn't healed, so he's probably back to July, another 6 to 8 weeks.
It was pour judgement by the Jays, they let a guy who wants nothing more to pitch, decide his future. They should've stepped in and told him that he needs to relax and let his leg heal, but they didn't, and now we've gone another year into Roy's contract, with nothing to show for it.
Braby you are correct that putting any kind of pressure on an injury such as Halladays in the early stage of healing is more harmful than helpful. In an ideal setting he would have been better off completely resting himeself for a good 5-6 wks before attempting to throw on the side. But of course professional sports and athletes dont take kindly to ideal settings and therefore this is what ends up happening.
But at the same point he is such an intense competitor and its hard for him not to do anything. And to be completely honest in this day and age of multi-million dollar whining athletes its refreshing to see someone such as Halladay so dedicated to their craft.
I personally think its a good idea they decided to shut him down, the Jays need him to be in his best form for the next couple of years and hopefully he wont disappoint.
And Magpie you summed it up the best, Kevin Mench YOU SUCK.
But at the same point he is such an intense competitor and its hard for him not to do anything. And to be completely honest in this day and age of multi-million dollar whining athletes its refreshing to see someone such as Halladay so dedicated to their craft.
I personally think its a good idea they decided to shut him down, the Jays need him to be in his best form for the next couple of years and hopefully he wont disappoint.
And Magpie you summed it up the best, Kevin Mench YOU SUCK.
Someone posted the possibility of the Jays acquiring Kevin Mench a couple of days back.. I wonder if there would be some kind of hostility in the clubhouse.. accidental or not, that shot certainly set us back big time.
This kind of makes us all realize the importance of a good #2 starter.
Heres to hoping we sign Burnett in the off season.
This kind of makes us all realize the importance of a good #2 starter.
Heres to hoping we sign Burnett in the off season.
Ah, well good thing that Cat, Hillenbrand, Batista et al weren't traded so the Jays can solidify their hold on 3rd place.
And speaking of Mench, I'd much prefer to go for, say, Kearns. Mench is a known commodity. I can't see him getting any better and he's going to age fast. The Jays would be buying high.
Everything isn't always all gravy in regards to the Jays Aaron. Why would I change my position? When you tell me that you can't make a broken leg worse by putting too much weight on it? or by Running on it?? Are you kidding me? His leg obviously wasn't healed, and he did exactly that, and look where we are now?
Braby, I'm not spinning this, I'm repeating what both the Jays and my own wife said about his specific injury. My wife is an excellent doctor and I believe what she says wholeheartedly.
Putting weight on the type of fracture Doc had will promote its healing -- that's why you do physio for that kind of fracture. What has happened is that it has not healed enough for him to play. Staying off of the leg would not have promoted faster healing in this kind of fracture.
Out of curiosity, how long did yours take to heal, and were you confined to strict bed rest?
Braby, I'm not spinning this, I'm repeating what both the Jays and my own wife said about his specific injury. My wife is an excellent doctor and I believe what she says wholeheartedly.
Putting weight on the type of fracture Doc had will promote its healing -- that's why you do physio for that kind of fracture. What has happened is that it has not healed enough for him to play. Staying off of the leg would not have promoted faster healing in this kind of fracture.
Out of curiosity, how long did yours take to heal, and were you confined to strict bed rest?
I agree that puting weight on it will not hurt, but help. But the weight that you're talking about, or that I agree with I should say, is merely walking on it. Not running around, planting and pitching. I didn't have a cast or anything, crutches for maybe 1 week, after that I walked on it normally (with a bit of a limp) at the start. The Doc's told me that walking on it won't hurt, but going side to side would hurt the healing process of the split in the bone. Zero bed rest, no point, it's not the bone that holds you up, it's the bone that assits the larger bone. The injury put me out of Basketball for 6 weeks, but after doing nothing more than walking on it, I was back practising w/ my team after the 6 weeks. By the way, I don't have a wife but I have a girlfriend and she's not a doctor.
Here's what Gibbons said about it today, courtesy of bluejays.com:
"He had a check-up yesterday, and it's not completely healed. So he's pretty much done for the year," Toronto manager John Gibbons said. "We thought it was close to healing, but it's not there yet. So, you're looking at possibly another couple weeks. By that time, how many weeks are left? So, he's about finished."
"We thought it was close to healing"
Well it's probably CLOSE to healing, so let's roll the dice and let our million dollar asset try it, who knows, maybe his leg's still not broken while he throws 94.
Good idea...
Well it's probably CLOSE to healing, so let's roll the dice and let our million dollar asset try it, who knows, maybe his leg's still not broken while he throws 94.
Good idea...
Once again, Braby, there's nothing that he could do to make the injury worse other than getting hit in the leg again. Jumping jacks may hurt like hell, but they won't make the injury worse.
There was no rolling of the dice. Period.
There was no rolling of the dice. Period.
I was actually in England and never saw the game or the hilights for that fateful game but when I saw today that after getting hurt Halladay still had the ability and the concentration to throw the guy out at first base. Unbelievable, I mean this guys intensity and competiveness is unrivalled by any pitcher in baseball. Period.
From Retrosheet, July 15, 1967
PIRATES 4TH: Clemente singled to pitcher; (the line drive which broke Gibson's leg, but he faced three more batters;) Stargell walked [Clemente to second]; Mazeroski made an out to center; Clendenon walked [Clemente to third, Stargell to second]; JACKSON REPLACED GIBSON (PITCHING).
One tough dude. He returned on September 7, made 5 more starts before the season ended, and then won all three of his starts in the World Series.
And had a pretty nice 1968 as well.
Once again, if Doc is rested, there's NO way that it takes him 16 weeks to come back from this injury, think about it, it just makes no sense. They messed up, they tried to get their man back in time, but they messed up.
Courtesy of ESPN.com:
"We were optimistic in how quick I could have come back," Halladay said. "I don't think it's gotten any worse. It has just taken longer than we thought."
"We were optimistic in how quick I could have come back," Halladay said. "I don't think it's gotten any worse. It has just taken longer than we thought."
Once again, if Doc is rested, there's NO way that it takes him 16 weeks
So you'd have us believe not only that Jays management is completely and utterly incompetent in regards to handling injuries, but that you, by virtue of having had a similar injury yourself, are qualified to pronounce a maximum healing process for this specific injury, despite not knowing any more about it than any of the rest of us? Wow. Just wow.
Well, Doc cracked his leg, they say 6 weeks and he's back. Now all of a sudden he's out for the season 7 weeks after it happened...so instead 6 weeks, it's now 16, and what's the reason for it? Well, we thought it was healed they say. Seems simple to me....wow, just wow.
A guy I knew who was in the Jays system this year, needed surgery on his shoulder but was treated like crap, they wouldn't even give him an MRI. So, they made him pitch, and his fastball topped out mid 80's so he was released. Dude comes back to Canada, has an MRI, shoulder's done, he shouldn't have been pitching.
Wow, just wow.
A guy I knew who was in the Jays system this year, needed surgery on his shoulder but was treated like crap, they wouldn't even give him an MRI. So, they made him pitch, and his fastball topped out mid 80's so he was released. Dude comes back to Canada, has an MRI, shoulder's done, he shouldn't have been pitching.
Wow, just wow.
It is a fact that after his arm injury last year and his leg injury this year, Doc has tried to return to the mound significantly before the minimum recovery period predicted by the doctors at the time of injury. In both cases, it has not worked. Doc is a horse, but he (and the team)need to show a little more caution if it happens again. The funny thing is that the team was going well when he took to the mound, and did not appear to need him to recover faster than the original expected recovery time.
It is a shame. Doc was easily the best pitcher in the league prior to his injury, and would have been full value for another Cy Young award.
It is a shame. Doc was easily the best pitcher in the league prior to his injury, and would have been full value for another Cy Young award.
Once again, if Doc is rested, there's NO way that it takes him 16 weeks to come back from this injury, think about it, it just makes no sense.
I'll take the opinion of a doctor who specializes in bones and joints and whose undergrad was sports medicine over "think about it, it just makes no sense".
I'll take the opinion of a doctor who specializes in bones and joints and whose undergrad was sports medicine over "think about it, it just makes no sense".
Yeah, but who employs the sports doctors?
A good doctor in October 2004 would have said: "Schilling is done. He can't pitch until next year."
A doctor the teams like would say: "You know, I can put an elastic band around Schilling's ankle tendon, sprinkle a little blood on the sock for a heroic display, and you have an ace pitcher for 2 more games."
Professional teams with million-dollar players want doctors who will get them results. It's counter-intuitive, unnatural, but these are the guys who look the other way when players take steroids.
A good doctor in October 2004 would have said: "Schilling is done. He can't pitch until next year."
A doctor the teams like would say: "You know, I can put an elastic band around Schilling's ankle tendon, sprinkle a little blood on the sock for a heroic display, and you have an ace pitcher for 2 more games."
Professional teams with million-dollar players want doctors who will get them results. It's counter-intuitive, unnatural, but these are the guys who look the other way when players take steroids.
KT, I'm talking about what my wife said about Doc's injury. She has not personally inspected it, but is going on media reports of what kind of fracture it was and where-- she said there's no way aside from it being hit with something real hard to make the injury worse.
I appreciate both NFH's comments as well as Brabys'.
I think as a fan I don't have enough info. to make an informed opinion about the care of Doc. and or the negligent care he may have received.
I do find it more than a bit strange that his injury is far from being healed.
Did they not monitor his rehab. as closely as they should have and or kept the reins on him regardless of what he wanted or thought was right?
I wish I knew.
I find it interesting that Lilly is out with Doc. only b/c I felt more than a bit perplexed that Ted wasn't sent for a conditioning stint in the minors after spring training when we all knew he had done virtually no pitching in spring training.
Instead they have him play catch-up in the majors leading to some rather crappy starts,cept for his 1st which I have felt was him running on adrenalin.
I was hoping Jamie or Pat would have asked J P if his/managements decision to put Doc. on ice would have been different if they had come home just a couple games back(2) in the wild card race and ask as well if their decision is written in stone(I'm guessing not)if the Jays did win the wild card race.
I would also have asked J P why the need to announce anything pertaining to Doc.and the possibility of having a negative/damaging effect to his teams psyche while still realistically in the midst of a wild card race.
At least for another wk. or so.Why the hurry?
Anyone?
Am I missing something?
I think as a fan I don't have enough info. to make an informed opinion about the care of Doc. and or the negligent care he may have received.
I do find it more than a bit strange that his injury is far from being healed.
Did they not monitor his rehab. as closely as they should have and or kept the reins on him regardless of what he wanted or thought was right?
I wish I knew.
I find it interesting that Lilly is out with Doc. only b/c I felt more than a bit perplexed that Ted wasn't sent for a conditioning stint in the minors after spring training when we all knew he had done virtually no pitching in spring training.
Instead they have him play catch-up in the majors leading to some rather crappy starts,cept for his 1st which I have felt was him running on adrenalin.
I was hoping Jamie or Pat would have asked J P if his/managements decision to put Doc. on ice would have been different if they had come home just a couple games back(2) in the wild card race and ask as well if their decision is written in stone(I'm guessing not)if the Jays did win the wild card race.
I would also have asked J P why the need to announce anything pertaining to Doc.and the possibility of having a negative/damaging effect to his teams psyche while still realistically in the midst of a wild card race.
At least for another wk. or so.Why the hurry?
Anyone?
Am I missing something?
That's basically what I'm saying, yikes you guys post late.
Whether you wife is the best doctor in the world, or the worst, (the first doctor I saw told me that I had a bone bruise and that I wouldn't have to miss any games w/ my injury) it doesn't really change my opinion. And it's exactly that, an opinion, I don't see how if it was treated properly, how Doc wouldn't be back at the latest next week. But we'll have to agree, to disagree.
Whether you wife is the best doctor in the world, or the worst, (the first doctor I saw told me that I had a bone bruise and that I wouldn't have to miss any games w/ my injury) it doesn't really change my opinion. And it's exactly that, an opinion, I don't see how if it was treated properly, how Doc wouldn't be back at the latest next week. But we'll have to agree, to disagree.
Braby, different people heal at different rates. While there's an "expected" recovery time, it is by no means a guarantee. All we are seeing here is an injury that's taking longer than average, not longer than acceptable, to recover from. Had your break taken a few extra weeks your doctor would not have freaked out, he would have just said "Yeah, sometimes it takes longer". There's nothing out of the ordinary about the length of time his recovery is taking -- it's just longer than the best case scenario (the initial timetable) and longer than "average" (the revised timetable). But to get "average" you have to have lengths on both sides. Doc's is on the long side of average.
Yeah, it sucks. But it's not due to his care, unless they've been hitting the leg with a golf club.
Yeah, it sucks. But it's not due to his care, unless they've been hitting the leg with a golf club.
Aaron - next season, first home game against Texas - what shall the sign say?
I think simply MENCH!!!! and an image of a shaking fist would do it.