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Frank Catalanotto with the winning RBI! And I called it in the RBI Pool!

Two great games in a row.

And I just heard that Wednesdays With JP is on tomorrow before the game, at 8:30 Eastern.
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Mike D - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:05 AM EDT (#125834) #
Incredible but true: The mighty K-Rod has blown each and every save opportunity he's had against the Jays.

The Fighting Jays!
DepecheJay - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:12 AM EDT (#125835) #
K-Rod is a flake. He reminds me of Benitez when he was with the Mets in that every time something goes wrong, he just falls apart and can't find the strike zone. It's a shame because with that type of arm and that type of stuff, he should dominate night in and night out.

What a sweet, sweet win for the Jays tonight. Man does this team ever have some character! Be proud of your 05 Jays Blue Jay Kingdom, they've earned it.
Ron - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#125836) #
I believe that was the first time the Jays cameback to win a game in regulation when trailing after 6 innings. I was worried when I saw Hill pulled for Hinske but luckily it worked out. All around, a very satisfying win!

Here's something interesting I came across (I can't verify if it's 100% accurate):

From SoSH via Gammo

Players waived, claimed and withdrawn:
Starting pitchers: Clemens, Rodrigo Lopez, Glendon Rusch, Orlando Hernandez, Bronson Arroyo, Aaron Harang, Andy Pettitte, Doug Davis, Kyle Lohse, Vicente Padilla Brett Tomko, Jamie Moyer, Gil Meche, Josh Towers and Jeff Suppan.

Relief pitchers: Jose Valverde, Jorge Sosa, Jorge Julio, B.J. Ryan, Mike Myers, Cliff Politte, Damaso Marte, Kent Mercker, David Weathers, Sunny Kim, Ron Villone, Dan Wheeler, Jeremy Affeldt, Mike MacDougal, Brendan Donnelly, Yhency Brazoban, Chris Hammond, Akinori Otsuka, John Grabow, Matt Wise, J.C. Romero, Ryan Madson, Billy Wagner, Ugueth Urbina, Brian Shouse, Miguel Batista, Eddie Guardado, Julio Mateo and J.J. Putz.

Position players: Tony Clark, Conor Jackson, Wilson Betemit, Jay Gibbons, Bill Mueller, Kevin Youkilis, Corey Patterson, Rob Mackowiak, Dunn, Kearns, Jeff DaVanon, Russell Branyan, Kaz Matsui, Kenny Lofton and Shea Hillenbrand.

Utilitymen: Olmedo Saenz, Neifi Perez, Ryan Freel, Lenny Harris, Chris Woodward, Marlon Anderson, Mark Sweeney and Pete Orr.

Catchers: Matt Treanor, Josh Paul and Mike Redmond.

Cleared Waivers - Potentially Available Players:
Relievers
Steve Kline got through, so did Ryan Vogelsong, Jason Christiansen, Scott Schoeneweis, Justin Speier, LaTroy Hawkins, Duaner Sanchez, Ramon Ortiz and Braden Looper

Starters:
Josh Fogg, Odalis Perez, Derek Lowe, Tom Glavine, Joe Mays, Tomo Ohka, Jose Lima, Bruce Chen and Joel Pineiro

As well as Griffey and Sean Casey, Mike Piazza, Sweeney, Frank Catalanotto, Dustan Mohr, Todd Hollandsworth, Todd Walker and Edgardo Alfonzo

Rob - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:17 AM EDT (#125837) #
A reminder: Wednesdays With JP should be on before the game tomorrow. I think 9:30, but it might be 9.
westcoast dude - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:21 AM EDT (#125838) #
Watching K-Rod unravel (BS,5)(L2-3) was a thing of beauty. Gibbons redeemed himself. Shea a sharp single, Hinske a patient walk (and the winning run), Zaun a perfect bunt towards third to load 'em up, Koskie walks in Shea, and Catalanotto the sac fly. What a bench!
Let's talk pitching: Downs a quality start, League a deserving win, and Batista the good save.
The A's lose again and Perez takes Rivera (BS,4)deep en route to a D-Rays win. Sweet.
Rob - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#125839) #
Speier cleared waivers? Wow. I guess he's our little secret.

I wonder if Wilner is reading this right now. I suspect he is.
Magpie - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:32 AM EDT (#125841) #
Tampa now 8-4 against the Yankees (they always have someone that they torment.)

"I didn't do my job." - Mariano.

A fine, fine day.

sweat - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:33 AM EDT (#125842) #
I'm shocked that Speier cleared waivers, and a little surprised that Cat cleared. I'm also surprised that Hinske hasn't gone through and/or cleared yet. I still think moving Cat can help this team, but they Jays do need a higher end hitting prospect in return. They might have to throw in one of their pitching prospects to go with Cat, but with Gross hitting well, with better D and a better arm...
Magpie - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:37 AM EDT (#125843) #
From ESPN's game story, Ted Lilly is hoping to get in a rehab start before the minor league season ends.
King Ryan - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:44 AM EDT (#125844) #
Wow. Justin Speier and Frank Catalanotto cleared waivers...Eric Hinske wasn't even placed on waivers? I can't believe that. I wonder if JP would move Cat/what he'd be looking for...
jaysfan - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 01:48 AM EDT (#125845) #
I think that Shea's AB was the key to the entire inning. K-Rod threw 2 nasty breaking pitches for strikes to start off the AB and Shea took a high fastball right back through the middle on 0-2. K-Rod just wasn't the same after that as I don't think he threw a curve for a strike after that. I think the Jays have discovered that in order to hit K-rod that you can't swing at any breaking stuff whatsoever. The Jays laid off his curve the whole inning and got some very good hacks off his fastball. Outstanding AB by Koskie. This AB reminded me somewhat of a spectacular AB in Game 2 of the Division Series vs Satin's Warriors last year. Koskie put up one of the greatest AB's I have ever seen by a lefy against the Machine, Rivera. He kept fouling off Rivera's inside cutters pitch after pitch. On about the 10th pitch or so of the AB Rivera finally went outside and Koskie hit a double down the left field line scoring the tying run. That AB is among the reasons why J.P. decided to invest in Koskie in the off-season.
Magpie - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:11 AM EDT (#125847) #
A couple of things on waivers - if a player is claimed, but the teams can not work out a deal, the player will certainly be withdrawn within the 48 hour period. But once a player is waived, claimed, and withdrawn, the player can not be placed on revocable waivers again for 30 days.

Teams are allowed to request waivers on up to 7 players in a single day.

Joe - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 07:27 AM EDT (#125849) #
Teams are allowed to request waivers on up to 7 players in a single day.

In that case, maybe Hinske is just low on the totem pole. I'll bet JP is just focusing on players that could actually fetch something in a trade.

JayFan0912 - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 07:52 AM EDT (#125850) #
Did anyone notice:
Pitchers IP H R ER BB SO HR PC-ST
B League (W, 1-0) 1.1 0 0 0 0 0 0 7-4
M Batista (S, 22) 1.0 0 0 0 1 0 0 21-14

Nice to see league in a pressure situation, and he needed 7 pitches to get through 1.1 innings, Batista - 21.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:25 AM EDT (#125852) #
I'm sorry to post something so clearly off topic here, but I did so last year, and Bauxites were very generous in making pledges to me. Thank you for your understanding.

To make a donation to my fundraising for the 25th annual Terry Fox Run, please simply use the URL provided below.

Please support my participation in the 2005 Terry Fox Run for Cancer Research. Let's work together to end cancer and keep Terry's dream alive. All money raised goes to cancer research; please support my participation by clicking on this link and donating: http://www.terryfoxrun.org/ENRunner/default.asp?s=1&RunnerID=13293.

Thank you very much for my being able to use this great forum to help a good cause.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:26 AM EDT (#125853) #
Are the rumours of Texas's being interested in Cat alive?

As much as I like Cat, he can't possibly be an average or more LF. His being traded would only be a good thing for the Jays almost regardless of his return.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#125854) #
I'm surprised Shea didn't get through.

I guess I'm lower on him than most though. He's not an implausible middle of the line up hitter, but he's a decent option for lower in the order on a team with good hitters already.
Pistol - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#125855) #
"Eric Hinske wasn't even placed on waivers?"

I think it's safe to say that the list posted is far from complete, and not necessarily entirely accurate.
Shortstop - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#125856) #
I just hope Eric Hinske watched closly Zaun's bunt. He could learn alot from him.

And was that the first time anyone else saw Shea show emotion at the end of the game. Nice little fist pump on a job well done.

Another thing, did anyone hear the talk between Rance and Jaime about the Gold Glove and that Jaime, i think joking, mentioned that O-Dog wore a Wilson which is why he probably didn;t win the Rawlings Gold Glove. Again, i think he was joking, but Rance went on a 5 minute rant about how that would be unfair and defeat the purpose of the Gold Glove. I felt the whole conversation was awkard and painful.

Where have you gone Dan Shulman and Buck, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#125857) #
As much as I like Cat, he can't possibly be an average or more LF. His being traded would only be a good thing for the Jays almost regardless of his return.

Why don't they just cut him, then? I don't know, I completely don't understand this line of thinking. Why do you want to jettison a useful player for nothing while the Jays are gaining in the Wild Card race?

I'm surprised Shea didn't get through.
I guess I'm lower on him than most though. He's not an implausible middle of the line up hitter, but he's a decent option for lower in the order on a team with good hitters already.


What's been wrong with his performance this year? Even Robert Dudek had to agree that he's making a meaningful contribution to the team.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:51 AM EDT (#125858) #
I would still think that if there's the chance Cat could bring back anything, they should take it. He's useful, sure, but how could he be league average at a power position with no power?

Maybe Shea's doing ok this year, but how could he really compare to the 3rd or 4th hitters on the other playoff contenders?
Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:51 AM EDT (#125859) #
And was that the first time anyone else saw Shea show emotion at the end of the game. Nice little fist pump on a job well done.

His bearhug for O-Dog after the walk-off homer was great. Hillenbrand is intense, but he's not emotional; I thought his post-game interview on Sportsnet was quite candid. He talked about not feeling dialed-in during batting practice, "but baseball is a crazy game".
Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 08:58 AM EDT (#125861) #
I would still think that if there's the chance Cat could bring back anything, they should take it. He's useful, sure, but how could he be league average at a power position with no power?

So despite the fact that the team is catching up in the Wild Card race, you think they should call the season off and dump? Wow, you're pessimistic.

Maybe Shea's doing ok this year, but how could he really compare to the 3rd or 4th hitters on the other playoff contenders?

He wasn't signed to be the 3 or 4 hitter -- the plan was for those to be Wells and Koskie. And as far as I can tell, Vernon Wells is still the 3rd hitter. Koskie was injured and hasn't been great since his return, so Hillenbrand is in the four-spot because he's hotter than Koskie. To argue that this makes him a sub-par 4th hitter is ridiculous.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#125862) #
To expand on that a bit, arguing that Hillenbrand is a poor fourth hitter is a lot like complaining about Dave Berg's performance in the outfield -- just because he's filling the role right now, that doesn't mean he was intended to fill that role.

But I like Hillenbrand a lot better than Dave Berg.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#125863) #
You think it's OK to have a DH/1B who can't hit fourth?

Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#125864) #
I'm one of those guys who really couldn't care what position a guy plays relative to his batting skill set as long as he's contributing, yes.

But you didn't answer any of my questions -- was that on purpose?
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#125865) #
I'm holding my baby: hard to type.

I don't think that trading away Cat means that I want to tank the year; it means I want to clear a spot, some salary, and try for a legitimate corner OF. It's not all or nothing.

Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#125866) #
Hah, I'm holding a baby too!

Small world.
DepecheJay - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#125869) #
NFH, nobody ever said anything about calling the season off. Mentioning that Cat might be able to net something in return doesn't mean that the dude is giving up on the Jays. Reed Johnson has played excellent this season, and Rios is starting to heat up. Reed could handle the starters role and maybe Gross would finally get a shot. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of trading Cat if it gets you something valuable in return.

Anyone else notice that top power prospect Conor Jackson is on the list? That's certainly interesting.
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#125870) #
You think it's OK to have a DH/1B who can't hit fourth?

Sure! The Twins and Angels thought so for about 15 years in the 1970s and 1980s after Rod Carew moved to his left from 2B. Yeah, yeah, exception, rule, blah blah. But the point is to have your best 1B play 1B, not your fourth-best power-hitter play 1B because he can't play anywhere else. That's what pinch-hitting was made for! Incidentally, I'm not a big Hillenbrand fan, but I think TO has been spoiled by years of Carlos Delgado.

Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#125877) #
F-Cat's OPS: .778
Shea's: .883
Hinske's .741

According to Baseball Prospectus, the average AL hitter this year has an OPS of .757. These guys play at three of our key hitting positions. Ugh.
Ducey - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#125881) #
I would submit Shea is a good 4 hitter.

According to BP here are the Jay's VORP's and Ranking in all of baseball for position players:

Shea 29.5 - 63rd
Wells 27.5 - 70th
Adams 20.3 - 118
Zaun 19.1 -126
Hill 13.6 - 166
Cat 11.6 - 187
Reed 11.5 - 190
ODog 11.2 - 193
Rios 9.1 - 219
Hinske 6.1 - 260
Koskie 3.2 -318
Menechino 2.3 - 349

Shea is leading the team in hitting and is the 63rd best hitter in all of baseball (according to VORP). The Cat/Reed semi platoon has been fine. The problem this year is with Hinske and Koskie. While VORP values those who play more and this accounts for part of his low score, Koskie has never got on track this year.

By the way - look at Adam's rating! I think he looks real good defensviely now. He is going to be an all star soon.

Also noteworthy is that Jason Bay has a VORP of 61.4, the 5th best for position players in baseball! Not bad considering he is in his 4th organization.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#125886) #
NFH, nobody ever said anything about calling the season off.

What else would you call jettisoning a useful player in exchange for nothing? He's an asset, regardless of how he stacks up against others at his position. I mean, if I was given the option of either Dave Berg or nobody on my bench, I'd take Berg in a heartbeat. Wouldn't you?

Anyways, trading for someone useful, like a backup catcher, I'm all for that. That's different from "His being traded would only be a good thing for the Jays almost regardless of his return."
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#125888) #
He's an asset, regardless of how he stacks up against others at his position. By that same logic, Sprague was an asset. Pedro Bourbon was an asset. Cat isn't as worthless as they were. Cat is just overmatched in LF. Not playing him in LF would help the Jays tremendously. Obviously, I'm assuming that they wouldn't trade him for an invisible man, that they would place someone other than an invisible man on the 25 man roster, and that they would take the time to pencil in someone for LF. At his price, his level of performance, his age, and his position, the Blue Jays should be running away from him.
Mike D - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#125889) #
For all this talk of inadequacies in the Jays lineup, consider this:

The Jays are 5 games back of the wild card lead.

The Jays have lost 5 one-run games to Seattle, Kansas City and Tampa Bay (combined winning percentage: .382).
Magpie - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#125916) #
how could [Catalanotto] be league average at a power position with no power?

When it's not a power position? Here is how AL left fielders have hit this year:

RK TEAM	          G  AB   R    H  2B  3B  HR   TB   RBI    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS
1  Boston	117 449  93  125  27   1  33  253   116  .278  .371  .563  .935
2  Texas        118 462  70  129  37   3  26  250    72  .279  .346  .541  .887
3  Detroit	118 458  61  142  21   3  21  232    84  .310  .351  .507  .857
4  LA Angels	119 478  68  142  23   3  16  219    79  .297  .339  .458  .797
5  Cleveland	119 478  69  141  32   3  11  212    49  .295  .353  .444  .797
6  Tampa Bay	120 508  78  150  23  12  13  236    66  .295  .323  .465  .788
7  Toronto	119 477  62  134  25   6  11  204    57  .281  .339  .428  .767
8  Baltimore    119 441  60  117  21   4  16  194    54  .265  .312  .440  .752
9  Seattle	118 453  56  123  28   1   9  180    54  .272  .337  .397  .734
10 Kansas City	118 438  57  120  20   3  11  179    54  .274  .316  .409  .725
11 Oakland	119 431  55  101  27   2  14  174    58  .234  .313  .404  .717
12 Minnesota	119 505  65  135  25   1  11  195    55  .267  .319  .386  .706
13 NY Yankees	118 474  74  123  19   2  12  182    58  .259  .319  .384  .703
14 Chicago Sox	117 465  75  126  23   0   2  155    31  .271  .334  .333  .667
It;s true that people often think of LF as a power position, because that's where sluggers who can't play in the field get stashed - but it's also been the position of some of the greatest top-of-the-order hitters in history: Rickey Henderson, Tim Raines, Lou Brock leap to mind.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#125929) #
8 of 13 other teams have more homers out of their LFers.

Three other teams have the same amount of homers.

The Blue Jays are better than two teams in a fourteen team league in terms of power out of their LFers.

Rob - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#125932) #
The Blue Jays are better than two teams in a fourteen team league in terms of power out of their LFers.

I didn't know you could only get power from a homerun. The Jays are 9th in isolated power (counting triples as doubles) and 8th in slugging average in terms of LF production. Not good, but not as bad as you say it is.

Magpie - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#125934) #
The Blue Jays are better than two teams in a fourteen team league in terms of power out of their LFers.

Which would be a problem if the LF was also the cleanup hitter. But the Jays LF bat 1st or 2nd, and getting on base is how they contribute to the offense.

Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#125935) #
Rob, that makes me feel better, but it still places them too far below the pack.

I definitely think that not having black holes in the line-up is important in contending, but the Jays aren't that well serviced by running Cat out there every day.
Four Seamer - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#125936) #
I definitely think that not having black holes in the line-up is important in contending, but the Jays aren't that well serviced by running Cat out there every day.

I'm not sure I quite grasp the point of this argument. I think it's generally been conceded, even by his greatest champions, that Catalanotto is not going to form part of the next Blue Jays' championship team, at least as the everyday leftfielder. For the Jays to take the next step, they are going to need to add some power to the lineup, and given that three quarters of the infield positions are spoken for by Hill, Hudson and Adams, and amongst the outfielders, Wells at least isn't going anywhere, there simply aren't many other places in the lineup for a power bat to go.

But that's a much different proposition than saying the Jays are doomed to failure because their left fielders don't have a whole lot of pop. Frank Catalanotto isn't responsible for the fact that the team as a whole doesn't hit that many jacks.

Regardless, when a better left fielder comes along, either internally or by trade, that player will get Frank's at-bats. Until then, the Jays are in fact well-served by playing one of their best hitters.

jsut - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#125937) #
Are you calling a .295 career hitter a black hole?

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#125938) #

The Jays' offence is average, and pretty close to flat 1-9. Cat and Reed together are average. I personally think that Gabe Gross would have done a little better than Cat this year taking into account offence, defence and baserunning, but that is probably a minority opinion.

Where the team has shined is in run prevention. The team has given up 1/2 a run less than league average despite playing in a hitter's park. It's been a team effort, led by Halladay, Hudson and Chacin. The team WARP leaders are Halladay, Hudson, Wells and Chacin in that order. WARP, unlike VORP, includes offensive and defensive contributions.

Here is the Hardball Times team report. Note the leaders in projected wins by run differential: Los Angeles 70, Toronto 69, Chicago 68, Oakland 68, Boston 67. How's that for an optimistic note?
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#125940) #
But that's a much different proposition than saying the Jays are doomed to failure because their left fielders don't have a whole lot of pop. Frank Catalanotto isn't responsible for the fact that the team as a whole doesn't hit that many jacks. Regardless, when a better left fielder comes along, either internally or by trade, that player will get Frank's at-bats. Until then, the Jays are in fact well-served by playing one of their best hitters. I'm not saying that Cat is the whole problem; I'm saying that earlier, when I said he should go, the defence for him isn't that strong. He's enticing enough for a contender. Let him go. I don't mind not getting much power out of Rios, Hill, and Adams; they'll come around (and the Jays should be the ones to give them this chance). I do mind Hinske and Hildenbrand. Yuck. Who would even trade for them? Cat won't be on the next championship contending Jays team; why not turf him now while he still has value? The Jays aren't winning this year. I'm not calling Cat a black hole; I'm saying he's not. Average is better than black hole. But he's a luxury we don't need, and we can't afford.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#125945) #
I do mind Hinske and Hildenbrand. Yuck. Who would even trade for them?

What's your preferred stat for measuring the overall contribution of a player, Malcolm? I'm having trouble thinking of a legitimate summing-up stat that would lead one to conclude "Yuck" on Hillenbrand's contributions this year. But perhaps you really did mean "Hildenbrand" and that's Ken Huckaby's middle name or something.

Four Seamer - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#125948) #
I'm not saying that Cat is the whole problem; I'm saying that earlier, when I said he should go, the defence for him isn't that strong. He's enticing enough for a contender. Let him go.

I'm still a little uncertain about the argument. On the one hand, you say he's a luxury the Jays can't afford, because he's a merely average player. In your view, he's an obstacle to the Jays becoming a contender. I don't agree that he's only an average player, and I don't agree that he's standing in the way of better days for the Jays, but owing to the current roster configuration, I do agree that he isn't likely to figure in a prominent, starting role on a World Series team in Toronto.

But on the other, you say that he has sufficient value to a current contender that Team X would be prepared to exchange something of real value to the Jays in order to obtain his services.

I don't know how you reconcile these positions. If he is a substandard leftfielder, and a team can't reasonably expect to compete with him getting everyday at-bats, where is his value to a team looking to win a championship? I concede that you may be thinking that he has some value to a contender as a pinch hitter, but I don't see the upside for Toronto in such a trade because the Jays sure aren't going to obtain a valuable part of their future from a team that doesn't want to use Catalanotto in an everyday capacity.

Magpie - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#125951) #
An average player has value. (Without taking a position on whether Catalanotto is average.)
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#125954) #
An average player who is not getting any better and who is at his peak or past it is not much help to a team that isn't contending this year. Yes, they haven't been eliminated from obtaining the fourth and final playoff spot, but there not contenders for the crown. He is exactly the type of guy who should get scuttled away.
Jonny German - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#125958) #
Yes, they haven't been eliminated from obtaining the fourth and final playoff spot, but [they're] not contenders for the crown.

Way to boil the contradictory statements right down to a single sentence... If the Jays have a shot at the playoffs, how do they not have a shot at the crown?

Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#125960) #
Thanks, Jonnhy. I am to please you, and you alone.

I doubt the Jays will make the playoffs this year. There I said it. I'm not happy about this, but I believe it.

Even if they did, I would be surprised if they made it past one round let alone made it to the world series.

That our hopes are up is a good thing. Doing things to help out next year at the expense of this year is more important than my having to wait a little longer for mathematical elimination day this year.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#125961) #
The Jays aren't winning this year.

I could have sworn you said you weren't writing off the season. If you're writing off the season, then your position makes sense -- that's why I asked if you were writing off the season.

For those of us who haven't written off the season, there's not really a good reason to trade away Cat for nothing (or middling prospects) right now.

As for your feelings about Hillenbrand, what more do you expect out of the guy? He's having a career year, and better than pretty much anyone who wasn't me expected. Seriously, what else will he have to do before you buy me a Shea Hillenbrand jersey? Give me some numbers, some targets, some kind of metric for what you're looking for.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#125962) #
Doing things to help out next year at the expense of this year is more important than my having to wait a little longer for mathematical elimination day this year.

Again, this is totally different from what you said above, that the team would be better off getting rid of him no matter what they got back. I don't think anyone's arguing against a trade for someone good.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#125963) #
I'm writing off the year in terms of realistically winning. I do think the Jays' low chances of winning are not lessened so much by turing Cat and plugging in Johnson; that's why I don't even think it's loser talk to do that one move.

Shea will have to play this well until the end of October for me to trust it. Given his history of fading away to Mendoza by Oct, you'll forgive me for not trusting this level of production.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#125964) #
Hank, I was legitimately surprised to discover that in terms of OPS, he's a league average LF. My position has changed in light of the fact that LF is worse than I thought it was.
Malcolm Little - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#125965) #
He's not hurting the team like I thought he was.

Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#125967) #
If he maintains his numbers to the end of October, what do I get?

By the way, speaking of "average" and above it and below it, I was just fooling around with my fantasy team, and according to Yahoo!, Hillenbrand is well above the league average at third base in average, home runs, RBI and stolen bases. They didn't list any other categories, just those four, but league average for 3B is .271, with Hillenbrand at .299; the average in home runs is 8, while Hillenbrand has 17; the average in runs batted in is 34, and Hillenbrand has 69; the average in stolen bases is 2, and Hillenbrand has 4.

For first basemen, he doesn't fare quite as well, but he's still above the league average in all four of those categories: avg at 1B is .278, Hillenbrand is .299; home runs - 10, with Hillenbrand at 17; RBI at 38, with Hillenbrand at 69; stolen bases at 1, with Hillenbrand at 4.

So, he's significantly above average at third base, and just pleasantly above average at first.

If someone wants to do a better rundown that this, go ahead (I'd like to see OBP and SLG league averages by position to see how he compares) -- I just grabbed all those numbers from Yahoo!.

And yes, Shea Hillenbrand is on my fantasy team. I traded for him last week.
Magpie - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#125968) #
I don't think anyone's arguing against a trade for someone good.

But the odds of getting Scott Kazmir or Ryan Howard in exchange for Catalanotto are not excellent. You obviously won't get an equivalent major league talent, you're hoping for a prospect, who three years from now might be worth something.

Which might even be worth doing if Catalanotto was blocking someone who belongs in the major leagues right now. He's blocking Gabe Gross, who has his backers here, but who obviously hasn't proved anything.

So what's the point? Never never never NEVER make a trade because of what you want to move. Worst trading strategy ever. Only make a trade when there's something out there that you want.

In the meantime, the guy is helping you win games in the major leagues, and that is always worth doing even if you're not going to the post-season. The people who come to the ballpark like it, and are more likely to come back. It's also good for young players to develop winning habits.

Nigel - Wednesday, August 17 2005 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#125972) #
By himself, Cat's got some but not a lot of trade value. He's a useful, but not a great, offensive player. He's not a good, but not disasterous, defensive outfielder. He is signed to a market rate deal (i.e. he's not cheap, nor is his a bloated contract). He is useful to the Jays right now. No matter what you think Gross' long term future is with the Jays its hard to imagine Gross providing the same or better production for the next month and a half (next year might be a different story). Trading him now makes no sense. In the offseason, packaged with something else, maybe.
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