Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Jays 6, Rangers 7: Tomorrow is Another Day

Jays 6, Rangers 7: Tomorrow is Another Day

This stuff happens. When you play 162 games, you're going to lose a whole bunch of them. Sometimes you're going to lose in an utterly grotesque fashion. File and forget. It's not a turning point, the season doesn't depend on how they respond to this game.

The season depends on Roy Halladay's health.

When it was over, Craig posted the following in the Instant Replay thread:

If you ever need to get information out of me, strap me into a chair and put the tape of this game on. I promise you, I'll cave faster than Jason Kenney in a slap-fight.

Agreed. Let's move on.

We're all waiting to hear something definitive about Roy Halladay's status: at post time (!), the most up to date word is that we don't know yet: Halladay's status won't be known until Saturday.

In Doc Shot Down in Texas, the Star's Geoff Baker reports that:

Halladay took the brunt of the ball on his calf muscle and not the bone. But Gibbons said the team and doctors wanted to do "that bone scan thing" and other types of examinations to ensure there was no fracture.

While we're waiting, let us take a tour around the majors and see which starting pitchers have visited the DL this year and for how long.

AL EAST

TOR - 	Ted Lilly: April 4 - April 9 (5 games)
        Roy Halladay: July 8 - current (0 games +)

BAL - 	Erik Bedard: May 27 - current (39 games +)

BOS - 	Curt Schilling: April 3 - April 12 (7 games)
        Wade Miller: April 3 - May 8 (29 games)
	David Wells: April 26 - May 18 (19 games)
	Curt Schilling: April 30 - current (62 games +)

NYY -	Kevin Brown: April 3 - April 18 (12 games)
	Jaret Wright: April 24 - current (66 games +)
	Kevin Brown: June 20 - current (16 games +)
	Carl Pavano: June 28 - current (7 games +)

TAM -	Mark Hendrickson: April 14 - April 29 (14 games)

AL CENTRAL

CWS - 	Orlando Hernandez: May 17 - June 2 (14 games)
	Orlando Hernandez: June 15 - current (20 games +)

CLE - 	C.C. Sabathia: April 3 - 18 (13 games)
	Kevin Millwood: May 27 - June 16 (17 games)

KC - 	Brian Anderson: May 10 - current (53 games +)
	Denny Bautista: May 15 - current (48 games +)

MIN - 	Carlos Silva: April 7 - April 22 (13 games)

DET -	None

AL WEST

LAA - 	Kelvim Escobar: April 3 - April 23 (17 games)
	Kelvim Escobar: May 12 - May 27 (14 games)
	Kelvim Escobar: June 11 - current (25 games +)

OAK -	Rich Harden: May 14 - June 22 (34 games)

SEA -	Joel Pineiro: April 3 - April 15 (9 games)

TEX - 	Pedro Astacio: April 3 - April 8 (4 games)

NL EAST

ATL - 	Mike Hampton: May 15 - May 30 (14 games)
	John Thomson: May 17 - current (49 games +)
	Mike Hampton: June 6 - current (31 games +)
        Tim Hudson: June 16 - current (22 games +)

FLA - 	Josh Beckett: June 16 - June 30 (13 games)
        Josh Beckett: July 8 - current (0 games +)

NYM - 	Steve Trachsel: April 3 - current (86 games +)
	Kris Benson: April 3 - May 4 (28 games)
	Kaz Ishii: April 19 - May 17 (26 games)

PHA -	Vicente Padilla: April 3 - April 18 (13 games)

WSH -	Tony Armas: April 3 - May 9 (31 games)
	John Patterson: May 16 - May 31 (15 games)

NL CENTRAL

CUBS - 	Mark Prior: April 4 - April 13 (8 games)
	Kerry Wood: May 2 - June 29 (51 games)
	Mark Prior: May 29 - June 25 (25 games)

CIN -	Ramon Ortiz: April 9 - April 30 (18 games)
	Paul Wilson: May 17 - current (47 games +)

HST - 	None

MIL - 	Ben Sheets: April 21 - May 19 (28 games)

PGH -	Oliver Perez: June 29 - current (10 games +)

STL -	Matt Morris: April 3 - April 20 (12 games)

NL WEST

ARI - 	Russ Ortiz: June 19 - current (17 games +)

COL - 	Shaun Chacon: June 5 - July 7 (29 games)

LAD - 	Brad Penny: April 3 - April 24 (17 games)
	Odalis Perez: May 15 - July 4 (44 games)

SD -	Woody Williams: May 2 - June 5 (31 games)
	Tim Redding: May 9 - June 22 (39 games)
	Adam Eaton: June 16 - current (22 games +)

SF -	Jason Schmidt: May 10 - May 25 (14 games)

Of all these pitchers, how many are clearly the team's top starter? Curt Schilling, for sure, but his team is rich and deep enough to have gotten by quite nicely without him. They are in first place, after all, which surely counts as "getting by." No other AL starter who has gone down means anything to his team remotely comparable to what Halladay means to his. Possibly Rich Harden - although Barry Zito is the veteran ace, Harden has been Oakland's best pitcher. The A's struggled mightily while he was out, but Oakland did have a host of other problems in May as well.

Things have been tougher in the other league. Milwaukee had to do without Ben Sheets for a month. Sheets, however, actually has a losing record this year. It's not really his fault, but this year Chris Capuano has pitched roughly as well as Sheets anyway. Pittsburgh has just lost Oliver Perez, but my pre-season pick for NL Cy Young hasn't even been the best pitcher in the Pirates rotation. The Giants lost Jason Schmidt for a couple of weeks. But Schmidt is also having a mediocre year, and the Giants have so many other problems that it barely matters anyway.

The Cubs lost both Mark Prior and Kerry Wood; strangely enough, they managed to keep their heads above water anyway, thanks largely to Carlos Zambrano and Greg Maddux. They have fallen flat on their faces since getting Prior and Wood back. The Braves are making do without three of their five starters, including Tim Hudson and Mike Hampton, but they're the Braves - nothing fazes them anyway. If the entire roster was kidnapped by aliens, Cox and Mazzone could probably grab 25 guys off the street and contend for the division.

The Blue Jays in 2005 have been very, very lucky. Only three teams have lost fewer games to injury from their rotation than Toronto. And that's as it should be: surely, the Jays took enough hits in 2004 to satisfy any malevolent baseball spirits for the rest of the decade.

The thought of Halladay missing any time is profoundly terrifying. Toronto is 14-5 (.737) when Halladay starts a game. They are 30-37 (.448) when anyone not named Halladay is the starter. That dropoff of .289 from the ace to the rest of the rotation is almost certainly the largest in the majors. Florida is 13-5 (.722) when Dontrelle Willis starts, 31-35 (.470) with the rest of the rotation, a dropoff of .252 - I can't think of anyone else who would even come close.

Fingers: crossed.

Wood: touching.

Posted by Magpie on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 08:15 AM EDT.

Jays 6, Rangers 7: Tomorrow is Another Day | 52 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Keith Talent - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 08:45 AM EDT (#121974) #

Well, do you think it was a game when O-Dog didn't even play that secured him as an untouchable?

Really, the confidence of the entire infield suffers when he's not there. It was evident last night that his intangibles can really make game-changing differences.

BallGuy - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#121975) #

The Fan just reported that the bone scan did not show any breaks but that there was a lot of swelling.(Can a bone scan work if there is swelling?). Anyways, they said that more information will be available later today but that Doc looks doubtful for the All-Star game.

andrewkw - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#121976) #

hey guys mostly a lurker here, do you think there is ANY chance Roy will pitch in the all star game, if its indeed just a bruise maybe he will want to throw an inning to prepare him for his next start? not to be selfish, but i just shelled out $200US + service charges for an all star ticket to see him start. Not that I wont still have an amazing time (never been to another park besides rc/skydome), but it will be heartbraking to go to detroit and not get too see him start against the NL's best.

Pistol - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#121977) #

You have to imagine that Halladay is out for the All Star Game, which isn't the worst thing. It'll give his arm a solid week of rest if he starts the first game after the AS break. I can't imagine that a bruise is going to keep Doc from pitching after a week of rest.

I always find it interesting that when a team puts on the shift for LH batters they slide the 3B to SS, the SS to 2B, and the 2B to short RF. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave the SS at SS and then move the 3B to where the SS typically plays in the shift? Why move everyone out of position?

I don't know about the effect of Hudson's intangibles on the other fielders, but his tangibles sure were missed last night. There were a couple balls early in the game that Menechino missed, that led to at least one run, that Hudson would have had easily. But I suppose you don't expect above average range from a utiity infielder in his mid thirties.

Mike Green - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#121978) #

Gibby had a series of interesting managerial decisions yesterday. Assuming that he was going to stick with Menenchino at second rather than move Adams or Hill, he still had a choice at first and third. His best defensive alignment is Hill at third, Hillenbrand at first. He chose Hillenbrand at third, Hinske at first presumably to get the additional left-handed bat in the lineup.

For myself, I would preferred to have seen Hill at third with an extreme groundballer such as Doc on the mound. Doc really relies on Hudson to eat up ground balls, and in Hudson's absence, I would have chosen to field the best defensive infield that I could.

Tough loss. Which is worse for an ace reliever's approach: a blown lead due to 3 errors, or a blown lead due to a 3 run homer? It might be the first one; lack of trust in the defence can lead to overthrowing. Hopefully, Batista has the maturity to look past this one and continue with the same approach.

Mick Doherty - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#121979) #

Just three teams have lost three starters apiece for more than 100 total team games each -- the Braves, Red Sox and Yankees.

And yet, nobody would be surprised to see all three in the playoffs. I'm not sure what that says, bit it seems interesting and possibly significant.

Magpie - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#121980) #

I'm not sure what that says, bit it seems interesting and possibly significant.

Depth, brains, money, and luck. The last item often goes with the first three.

The Braves know both Tim Hudson and Mike Hampton have both been susceptible to minor nagging injuries; losing John Thomson was probably more of a shock. They came up with rookie Kyle Davies and Tampa cast-off (!) Jorge Sosa.

The Red Sox had to be a little worried about both Schilling and Wells: both have age and injury issues. They prepared themselves by having a sixth starter on standby, Wade Miller, who opened the year on the DL. Money talks.

The Yankees should have expected some issues with Kevin Brown and Jaret Wright. It doesn't look like they did - depending on a rookie like Chien-Ming Wang is not the Yankee Way. But it's worked out great for them.

John Northey - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#121981) #

Watching this game, and seeing how Hill has been playing third this season (amazingly good) I wouldn't be surprised at all to see, after this season if not during it, Hinske mixed in a DH platoon with Hillenbrand while Koskie goes to first base. We'd have a heck of a defensive infield then, with the weakest defensively being Adams who isn't bad, just not as good as the rest for his position. JP has been talking about defense a lot, so when Koskie comes back it will be interesting to see if his manager follows through.

Btw, to me the ideal would have Gross/Johnson-Wells-Rios in the outfield as well while Cat DH's with Hillenbrand and Hinske becomes bench material along with whoever else is kept. Expensive bench, but such is life.

Also, if someone is coming up to start in the event of Halladay being out for any length I'd think it would be Gaudin as he is doing great in Syracuse still (2.55 ERA) or Miller (2.05 with 3 starts and 17 relief appearances). Bush I expect to be in AAA until September.

Magpie - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#121983) #

It's strange that so many people want to move the team's best defensive third baseman to first base.

When Koskie gets back, I expect to see a lot of Hill at DH and Hillenbrand at 1B. Hill will flip flop with Koskie on occasion just to give the older player a semi-day off and keep the rust off the rookie's glove. Hinske will surely get squeezed for playing time, and may not get another start against a LH pitcher.

Andrew K - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#121985) #

Who is the *tallest* man on the team? Perhaps he should play first -- Adams' (very minor) tendency to throw over Hinske's head could be alleviated if the first baseman was a foot taller.

Jim - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#121987) #

The Braves have gone from a team that bored me to tears to one of the more interesting teams in the league.

Just last night:
23 yo Kelly Johnson in left
21 yo Andy Marte at third
21 yo Jeff Francoeur in right
off the Bench
25 yo Ryan Langerhans
25 yo Adam LaRoche
24 yo Wilson Betemit
On the bench
21 yo Brian McCann

Furcal and A. Jones are both also only 28. Could be another decade of decadence for the Braves.

Magpie - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#121988) #

Who is the *tallest* man on the team?

Roy Halladay. Followed by Alex Rios.

Koskie is the tallest infielder (he has an inch over Hinske.) Just so long as we don't see Menechino or one of the hobbits over there... :-)

King Ryan - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#121989) #

I know Koskie has an excellent reputation, but I wasn't all that impressed with his defense earlier this year. Besides, isn't it possible that using him at DH might limit his chances of getting hurt again? This guy gets injured every year.

CaramonLS - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#121990) #

During this "No Hudson" period we need to try Hill @ SS, Adams at 2B. Most people agree he is better suited at 2B with his extreme range, but questionable at times throwing arm. He might not replace Hudson there, but I think he would be the closest thing on our team to doing it.

And it would be a complete and utter waste of Hill's fielding talents if were to DH.

Magpie - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#121993) #

During this "No Hudson" period we need to try Hill @ SS, Adams at 2B.

It's not going to happen and it absolutely shouldn't happen. You don't teach someone how to make a DP pivot without getting killed in the middle of a major league season.

VBF - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:34 PM EDT (#121994) #

It's strange that so many people want to move the team's best defensive third baseman to first base.

Is he though? I mean he's one of the best third basemen in the game, yes, but Aaron Hill (at least what I've seen) has shown us that he can do the job just as good and will only get better. I don't think having Hill at third instead of Koskie is going to affect our defense all that much even if Hill wasn't at Koskie's level of fielding

And it's not really a waste to have Koskie at first. What it does is improve an already good defensive position (Hinske right now) while maintaining similiar stability at third.

Dave Till - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#121995) #

Something I've thought about for a bit: could Hill wind up moving to the outfield? There may be nowhere else to put him. Third base will be Koskie's when he returns. Adams seems to have won the shortstop job. Hudson is good enough defensively that the Jays may want to keep him, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of moving Hill to second unless he has good enough mechanics to turn the double play without risking injury. And it would be a waste of Hill's ability to put him at first; besides, he doesn't have enough power for the position, and any big bat acquired in a trade would likely be a 1B/DH type.

The player Hill is being compared to - Paul Molitor - spent many years in centre and right for the Brewers before being moved to third, if that's any indication. I don't know whether Hill has the ability to read fly balls, but he has the speed and the arm. And, while I'd like to see more power from a corner outfielder, a high on-base percentage is good enough.

Speaking of which: why aren't the Jays leading Hill off? He doesn't have a lot of power, and he has a .405 on-base percentage. These seem like ideal qualifications for a #1 hitter.

Andrew K - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#121996) #

It's not going to happen and it absolutely shouldn't happen. You don't teach someone how to make a DP pivot without getting killed in the middle of a major league season.

I agree. Send Adams and/or Hill to play baseball in the autumn or winter, learning then and during spring training.

Of course, it depends on what happens to Hudson. If he's traded this month, do Menechino and MacDonald split 2B for the rest of the year?

Mike Green - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#122002) #

Magpie, our second real disagreement. And no, it's not Christy Turlington. Corey Koskie was a great defensive third baseman 3 years ago prior to the ravages of injury and age. He is no longer. Defensive reputations last a lot longer than defensive performance.

Aaron Hill is right now a far superior defensive third baseman. Mobility, quick reactions, instincts, arm- he's got it all. Corey is perfectly adequate at third, but he does not compare to Hill.

Aside from the difference in defensive abilities, Koskie has been susceptible to injuries. Moving him to a less demanding defensive position increases the chance of him maintaining good health.

Wildrose - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#122003) #

Pistol mentioned how much we miss Hudson and his tangible defensive abilities. Defence value however, is awfully hard to quantify. One metric out there that I've been digging around a little bit with is, the Davenport based defensive stats available at Baseball Prospectus.

Here's a chart based on fielders rate of production above or below average per 100 games.( e.g. a player who rates at 110 for instance should be of gold glove consideration and would be 10 runs above average/per 100 games)

A.L. second basemen/ 2005 rate

-Hudson/118
-Punto/113
-Belliard/108
-Gotay/106
-Polanco/104
-Green/103
-Bellhorn/101
-Ellis/100
-Boone/96
-Kennedy/97
-Roberts/95
-Soriano/78

Hudson measures by a wide margin in this system as the best second base defender in the A.L. Over the course of a year he's 25-30 runs better than the average A.L. second basemen. That has to have some tangible value. In fact in this years BP book, they note if Hudson hits at a .280 EQA and by using their defensive tools, they feel he has the potential to be " among the 30 most valuable players in the league."

Looking at his overall ability as a player both offensively and defensively, if you trade O-Dog you'd better be getting premium value back. Toss in the fact you control his contract for the next 3 years, and according to the Verducci S.I. article, he's a fabulous teamate, I'd be carefull trading this guy.

Wildrose - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#122005) #

Mike Green is right regarding Koskie, according to B.P. here's his fielding rate of production. I suppose if he's healthy, a big if mind you, could he regain his defensive abilities?

uglyone - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#122008) #

Rosenthal says Roy's out for a month.

uglyone - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#122009) #

I guess this guarantees Bush gets called up right after the break. I'd assume the Jays take advantage of it and call up a guy like Miller for the rest of this series.

Now, if J.P. was seriously considering trading for a Burnett or Kip Wells.....does this stop that thinking in it's tracks?......or does it speed it up, and make him make the trade NOW, instead of 3 weeks from now?

Andrew K - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#122010) #

Rosenthal says Roy's out for a month.

Tragedy. If true, it probably puts paid to his Cy Young chances, and any remaining glimmer of contention hopes for the Jays this year. Still, I wasn't counting on the latter anyway.

It Just Sucks.

CaramonLS - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#122011) #

Just say NO to Kip Wells.

His WHIP, BB/K rates, spell disaster for the AL.

uglyone - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#122012) #

It's a big blow, no doubt, but losing Roy for 5-6 starts doesn't have to be a death blow to the team, especially considering how well Lilly is pitching right now, and that Dave Bush seems to be more than ready to come back up ASAP....not to mention the possibility of adding another good arm in a trade soon.

As for his Cy chances....even with the injury, he's got a very good chance to post 20 wins with a sub-2.50era.....with 200+ innings....and I'm not sure there'll be many pitchers that can beat that.

Andrew K - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#122013) #

I'm not convinced that Bush is ready to come back and pitch particularly well. Maybe adequately or a little above average.

If it really is a month off (please let it not be), I'm guessing that Doc would make another 11 starts. That makes it very tough to get to 20 wins. Meanwhile, John Garland could get to 22 or 23, and there are other pitchers coming up on the rails. The CYA voters are too stupid to see past the wins column.

Andrew K - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#122014) #

Oh gawd. At least a month. Broken bone.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3749740

*cries*

Magpie - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:40 PM EDT (#122015) #

Rosenthal's piece is in The Sporting News. And we find the same story now at Rotoworld.

Sigh.

uglyone - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#122016) #

look on the brightside....there's no risk of overworking Roy's arm this year now!

Thomas - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#122017) #

Wow. Absolutely terrible news.

Bush will do a fine job in the rotation, I think, but he's no Halladay. Right now almost no one is.

uglyone - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#122019) #

Just a quick at Bush's ML game logs, from most recent to oldest:

* 08/07/05: 7.0ip, 6h, 1er, 0hr, 0bb, 5k
* 03/07/05: 5.0ip, 8h, 7er, 1hr, 1bb, 7k
* 28/06/05: 7.0ip, 6h, 2er, 1hr, 0bb, 3k
* 23/06/05: 7.1ip, 9h, 1er, 0hr, 0bb, 5k
* 18/06/05: 6.0ip, 6h, 3er, 1hr, 2bb, 4k
* 13/06/05: 1.2ip, 2h, 2er, 0hr, 2bb, 1k (ejected)
* 08/06/05: 8.0ip, 7h, 1er, 1hr, 1bb, 4k
* 03/06/05: 6.0ip, 10h, 5er, 0hr, 2bb, 7k

I'd feel 100% confident in him if it wasn't for his 2nd last start, where he gave up 7er. Because other than that, it was just his 1st start down in the minors that was anything less than very good.

Since I never thought he should have been sent down in the first place, I'll take my chances that that 2nd last start was just a bit of bad luck (especially since he struck out 7 and only walked 1), because otherwise, he looks more than ready to move on up.

Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#122020) #

I watched the first two and a half innings of last night's game. I left right after Matthews Jr. robbed Cat of the 3-run HR so it was still 6-2. I'm not sure I could have fathomed the horrible news that followed. My wife called me to tell me Doc had been hit, and my buddies thought a family member had died the way I was receiving the news. Though not as bad, it's a rough Friday night when Doc breaks his leg, the Jays do not score again, commit 3 erros and lose the game. Owwwww.

This is a big time for this team. It'd seem easy to tank. Hopefully another pitcher will step up and lead the Jays through the easy post-All Star break schedule at .500 or better til Doc comes back.

VBF - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#122021) #

Damn! Damn, damn , damn, damn. I'll get you Mendoza!

Okay, Blue jays. Your latest challenge. Your mission is to stay in the race for one more month until the Doctor can come back. The general, J.P. will be equipping you with two weapons which will come around July 31st. Stay in the race, and the prize will be yours!

In all seriousnes though, the month I can forget about. I just hope this isn't one of those recurring injuries that can be triggured. From what I hear it's a break, so chances are its a one time thing.

Mike Green - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#122022) #

Obviously no one is happy about Doc missing a month. But, a nondisplaced fracture will heal, and Doc will likely come back stronger than ever in August.

Here's what I would recommend now. Bring up Bush. Move "Firpo" Batista to the rotation, and Walker back to the pen. Use Frasor as the ace, with Speier and Chulk in set-up roles. Yes, the bullpen would be weakened somewhat, although not as much as one might think (Speier has been effective enough to merit a more important role). The key is to get a consistent 6 good innings from your starters. Batista, Lilly, Bush, Chacin and Towers would do just fine as a rotation for 4-6 weeks.

Dave Till - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#122023) #

<string of expletives>

The report says at least a month; I wouldn't expect much from Doc this year.

This is living proof that the Baseball Gods are not Jays fans.

It's possible that the rest of the team could suck it up and move forward. But at this point it might be best just to reload for next year.

<another string of expletives>

Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#122024) #

Blue Jays pitcher Roy Halladay will miss at least...

I'm not sure there are any words in sports that are worse than these.

CaramonLS - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#122025) #

If thats the case then Green, We'd be better off DFAing Downs, sending him back to AAA and calling up Gaudin. Because I can see us needing a deep pen in that kind of situation.

Of course I might just eat some crow depending on how well Downs pitches today.

Rob - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#122026) #

Just a clarification on Bush's game logs:

He was not ejected on June 16. Esix Snead, the subpar human being, drew blood and Bush had to leave the game. The log says ejection, but he didn't do anything worthy of ejection.

Damnit, last night's game was the worst I've ever seen.

Mike Green - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#122027) #

Well, whether Scott Downs is a better pitcher than Justin Miller right now is a good question. Gibby has tended to resist the serial relief changes that make 2 lefties necessary. It has made this year much more enjoyable as a bullpen watcher than the last two years. With that in mind, the fact that Scott Downs is left-handed whereas Miller is right-handed matters not very much, and the simple question is "who's better?". I won't pretend to know the answer to that one.

Rob - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#122029) #

There is now a new thread up to discuss the injury, or to announce how you will commit unspeakable acts of violence after hearing the news.

Brian W - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#122047) #

Sportsnet was reporting that Gross has been sent back to Syracuse and League & Miller got called up. No link as I saw it on TV, but don't see anything on their website.

Andrew K - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#122048) #

Isn't Miller out of options? If so, and he's brought up, then either he stays in the major league team for a long time or we could lose him on waivers. Better to bring up someone who can be sent down again when no longer required.

Marc Hulet - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#122052) #

That doesn't make any sense. So if the player you think would be the best fit is out of options, you don't use him? The option isn't going to grow back if he stays in the minors. Besides, Miller has passed through waivers two other times. He's really not all that good, and people would be even less likely to pick him up if he doesn't pitch well enough to stick in Toronto. The Jays can always send League down instead.

Rob - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#122055) #

According to JP on the pregame show, Charlie Wholestaff will pitch today: "If we got 3 innings from Downs, I'd be happy." He said Miller or League for 3 or 4 more, then Chulk is rested.

So, obviously, Miller and League are up and Gross is down.

Also: "I'm not trading Ted Lilly because nobody's going to trade me a good young arm for him."

Rob - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#122059) #

Oh, and here's an update on the NFH Challenge:

If Shea Hillenbrand gets on base in any way over the next two games, NFH wins.

If Shea Hillenbrand goes 0-for-X in the next two games, where X is less than or equal to 12, NFH wins.

If Shea Hillenbrand goes 0-for-Y in the next two games, where Y is greater than or equal to 13, NFH loses.

Bottom line: NFH wins.

Magpie - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#122060) #

Dudek's looking for an 18 inning game. Or two.

Thought I'd update the list of starters on the DL: added Doc and Josh Beckett.

King Ryan - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#122069) #

So. If Kotsay (excellent defensive CF, meh batting numbers) is worth 7.5M/year, then what is O-Dog (excellent defensive 2B, bit-less-than-meh batting numbers) worth?

Mike Green - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#122070) #

In the NFH-Mo-Phatt Challenge, the London Food Bank looks to be the big winner unless Hillenbrand hits 5 homers today, and then another 5 tomorrow. OK, it's not that bad.

Magpie - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#122074) #

then what is O-Dog (excellent defensive 2B, bit-less-than-meh batting numbers) worth?

Considerably less. With Kotsay, you also have to purchase control over the player from the player. Because he's FA eligible - he owns his own rights. The Jays, or anybody else for that matter, doesn't have to purchase that with Hudson - they already own it.

Maybe you were wondering what each would be worth if all other things were equal, but meh... they never are.

King Ryan - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#122081) #

Yeah, I was wondering what he'd be worth, all things being equal. It wasn't a "What's JP going to give Hudson?" Question. More of a "How valuable is defense at 2B compared to defense at CF?" Question.

More of a, "let's talk about anything else" question.

CeeBee - Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 07:48 PM EDT (#122087) #

Defence up the middle is worth more than the corners but 2nd base or Center field? hmmmmm I'd take 2nd base because of the greater number of plays, especially double plays but only if my center fielder was at least average. ;)

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