Okay, I'll stop whining now.

Looking for the positives from last night's game ... Gus Chacin threw quite well, struggling at times with his location but generally looking confident and in control. John Gibbons allowed him to throw 116 pitches into the 8th inning. I don't have a problem with that, but I'll bet Dave Bush is sitting in a Syracuse hotel room wondering why Gibbons seems to have his hook handy for some young starters and not others. Also worth noting is the fact the Mariners aren't exactly the most explosive offence in the league. All that said, Chacin clearly is the Jays' second-most reliable option in the rotation right now, and that's not just remarkable, it's unforeseeable from this time last year.

Not much else to report from this match. I was impressed with how Russ Adams hung in to complete a double play in the first inning with the gigantic Richie Sexson bearing down on him. His average is down to .232, but I think he's actually looked not bad at the plate overall -- I certainly don't think he's been overmatched. Do I think he should be sent down to Syracuse when Corey Koskie returns from the DL? No. Do I think he will be sent down? I'm not betting against it....

The general feeling before this road trip started was that if the Jays did really well on the trip -- say, 9-4 -- then JP Ricciardi would start in earnest to seek out some help through the trade wire. That hoped-for record now goes to 8-2 during stops in Oakland, Houston and Chicago -- still doable, but more difficult.

Today, I'm going to start with the Roundup, and then move on to a more feature-length article.

Roundup

Blue Jays blanked by Mariners (MLB) -- The old saying, resurrected in this article, is: "Good pitching beats good hitting." This is often true. What's even more often true is the adage "Good pitching beats mediocre hitting." As interesting and fun as the Jays have been lately, it's good to remember they have a rookie batting third and a guy with a .310 OBP leading off. They're going to make quite a few pitchers look good.

Angry Lilly rips into coach (Baker) -- It's not quite as bad as the headlines makes it sound, but Ted Lilly and Brad Arnsberg probably aren't playing-card partners these days. Meh. I don't think this is much more than Arnsberg doing whatever he thinks it takes to turn Lilly around -- it's not the first time club personnel have used the media to get a point across. FWIW, I'd rather the Jays bruised a few egos than just sat back and hoped for the best. Say what you will about the Bush demotion (which I dislike) and the Lilly slagging (which doesn't bother me too much): Arnsberg and Gibbons aren't afraid to push to get the results they want. The Jays are a much better team with Lilly on track, and that's the only goal that matters right now.

Rocket redux? Go for it, Jays (Perkins) -- Yeeeah, I don't think so. First of all, I really don't see the Jays as legitimate contenders this year -- they should hurt some contenders along the way, but they're not ready to start pawning off their minor-league treasures quite yet. Next season, certainly. Second, if they do decide to make a run for it, it's hitting they need, not pitching, as last night made quite clear. Third, and this is a personal take, I really have no interest in seeing the Jays bring back a player in Roger Clemens who publicly held the team hostage at the end of his (personally) successful stint as a Blue Jay and forced Gord Ash into a poor trade. So, yeah, I think the Jays should decline that suggestion.

End of the line for Braves' Mondesi? (Star) -- So long, Buffalo. It's probably not fair to harbour deep resentment against Raul Mondesi from a Jays' fan perspective. The contract he brought from LA was bad enough, and Ash made a bad situation worse by guaranteeing the option years. But whatever else you can say about Raul, he played hard for almost all of his tenure with some bad Blue Jays clubs, and he did try. Mondesi's problems were twofold: he wasn't actually all that useful a player (he was Roto-good, not actual-good), and he did treat his career essentially as something to finance his nightlife. It's too bad his tenure in Toronto ended so badly, and it's too bad he didn't maximize his tremendous natural talent. But you know, Shawn Green was the one who basically forced a deal from Toronto, and it's not like Green's post-Jays career has been one success after another. So I think I'll go a little easy on Mondesi today.

Toronto Sun baseball page online (Sun) -- Here's a list of the verbs used in the Sun's baseball roundup as synonyms for "defeated":

nick
topple
rout
deck
down
hammer
whip
slam

I'm pretty excited, how 'bout you?

Schoeneweis a cancer survivor (MLB) -- First, I'm sorry Schoeneweis suffered testicular cancer, and second, I'm very glad he beat it. But third, this article contains a refreshing absence of "Entertainment Weekly" platitudes and noble-victim mythologies about disease survivors. Schoeneweis, a satisfyingly normal guy in all respects, says:

"[Surviving] cancer should give me better perspective, but I don't know if it has. I know that I'm lucky to be here and lucky to be playing. But I take it for granted sometimes. I try to downplay what I've gone through. I need to get better at not doing that."

I suddenly like Scott Schoeneweis.

We talked a little while back about the best rivalries in Blue Jays' history. One of the points that was raised is that while Jays fans never really considered the Mariners to be a rival, M's fans begged to differ: all they ever heard about was how the Jays were a model expansion franchise, while their expansion cousins in Seattle were a textbook example of how not to build a contender from scratch.

Certainly, these two teams have always been linked by their status as fraternal twins, introduced to the American League simultaneously in 1977. Ironically, it was the Mariners that got off to a pretty decent start, while the Jays languished in 100-loss territory for their first five seasons. One of the interesting opportunities afforded us by these teams' pairing is that we can make useful comparisons between them, since all the sample sizes are exactly the same.

We could talk about overall win-loss records, playoff appearances, first- and last-place finishes, and awards, but today I'd like to run a little contest that isolates one factor: the best player produced by each team at every position.

The rules are fairly simple: we're looking for the best player produced by the Blue Jays or Mariners organization at one of 12 positions (the eight fielding spots, DH, right-handed starter, left-handed starter, and closer). To qualify, a player must either have been originally signed and drafted by the organization, or made his first full season's worth of appearances for Toronto or Seattle.

So, for example, Damaso Garcia, who played 29 games for the Yankees in 1978-79 before starting 140 games for the 1980 Blue Jays, counts as a Toronto product. Roberto Alomar, who played three full seasons for San Diego before becoming a Blue Jay, does not. Also, the player has to spend at least four seasons with his club to qualify: Jeff Kent doesn't make it for the Jays at either third or second base.

All set? Here we go, then.

Catcher
Ernie Whitt vs. Dan Wilson

Whitt was a solid offensive catcher, though never quite as great as Jays fans thought back when he was playing. He had his weaknesses (couldn’t hit lefties and didn’t have a great arm) and was platooned effectively with Buck Martinez. But during the 1980s, there weren't many catchers who could hit better than him.

Wilson is fourth on the Mariners’ all-time GP list, and had himself a couple of pretty solid seasons back in the mid-'90s. He came from Cincinnati in a trade that took Bret Boone away from Seattle the first time. Whitt had seven straight plus-100 OPS+ seasons; Wilson had none.

Advantage: Toronto

First Base
Carlos Delgado vs. Alvin Davis

Alvin Davis always seemed to be topping the “Most Underrated Players” list in the ‘80s, and deservedly so. He had five solid seasons and two flat-out great ones (146 and 156 OPS+ respectively), and finished his career with more walks than strikeouts, an amazing feat for a power hitter.

But Davis loses this contest, rather dramatically, to the best player the Jays ever produced: Delgado’s career could reasonably end at Cooperstown if he ages well. To add insult to injury, the Jays produced two other first basemen (Fred McGriff and John Olerud) who might be able to top Davis as well.

Advantage: Toronto

Second Base
Damaso Garcia vs. Harold Reynolds

Garcia, one of the many gifts to the Blue Jays from the Yankee organization in the 1980s, was a dynamic leadoff hitter, posting a .283 lifetime average and swiping 54 and 46 bases in 1982 and 1984. But those two seasons represented half his career SB total, and he viewed walks as anathema, barely posting a lifetime .300 OBP; his overall defence was okay.

Reynolds, on the other hand, won three consecutive Gold Gloves at the end of the ‘80s, and while his batting average was never great, he had a terrific eye at the plate and walked more often than he struck out. He stole 25 bases or more six times, including a league-leading 60 in 1987, the Year of the Home Run.

Advantage: Seattle

Shortstop
Tony Fernandez vs. Alex Rodriguez

Remember that card game “War” you played as a kid? Divide the deck in half and each player turns up a single card simultaneously; the higher one wins both cards. The worst part of that game was when you turned up a king and your opponent turned up an ace, robbing you of one of your best weapons. Well, this is how Tony Fernandez fared in this contest. One of the great shortstops of the last 25 years, Cabeza was lethal with the bat and astonishing afield; before his mid-career injuries, he was the only shortstop to rate comparisons with Ozzie.

But he’s up against a player who, if he returns to the position in the near future, might well be considered the best ever in the 6-spot. A-Rod’s numbers were often inflated, first by the Kingdome, and then by The Ballpark at Arlington, but he’s still one of the very best hitters in the game and is a legitimate Gold Glover at short. His full-season debut in 1996 (.358/.414/.631) remains one of the best all-time for any player, let alone a shortstop. Sorry, Tony.

Advantage: Seattle

Third Base
Kelly Gruber vs. Jim Presley

This is what you call the undercard. It’s really rather remarkable that these teams, which have produced All-Star and even Hall-of-Fame quality players at many positions, haven’t produced anyone better at the hot corner. Gruber had four solid seasons for Toronto from 1988-91, including a career ’89 season when he clubbed 31 homers; his defence was consistently above average. But injuries and a soured relationship with fans and the media did him in.

Presley had more pop – four seasons with 20 or more homers and 25 or more doubles – but rarely got on base, ending his career with an OBP of just .290. He hit .275 in his first full season, 1985, and never reached that mark again; in 1986-87, he struck out a combined 329 times. He was not renowned for his defence. This isn't exactly Holyfield vs. Tyson, but someone's got to win.

Advantage: Toronto

Left Field
George Bell vs. Phil Bradley

A three-time All-Star and one-time MVP, Bell cracked 24 or more homers five consecutive seasons from 1984-88, including a league-leading 47 in ’87. He hit .300 twice and finished with a career .278 batting average. Walks were an afterthought for macho George (fun stat: here are his seasonal walk totals from 1985-1993: 43-41-39-34-33-32-32-31-14. That is what you call a graceful decline). Bell’s defence in left field started off as decent and quickly shifted to indifferent.

In his first four full seasons, Bradley was a revelation: he hit right around .300, drew an average of 75 walks a year, pounded out 52 homers and swiped 104 bases. Then the Mariners traded him to Philadelphia, and within three years, he was out of the big leagues at age 31. The only category in which he ever led the league was HBPs, twice. There’s a lot of “what might have been” surrounding Bradley, but this article is about “what actually was.”

Advantage: Toronto

Centerfield
Lloyd Moseby vs. Ken Griffey, Jr.

Very shortly, Vernon Wells will own this spot, but for now, you can’t really give the Best Centerfielder crown to a guy who’s played only three full pro seasons. Shaker Moseby was a very underrated defensive outfielder, he drew a lot of walks, and he stole 30 or more bases five consecutive years (1984-88). He was pretty useless against lefties most of his career, but when he was on, he could (and did) carry his team in its fledgling contender years.

Not that it really matters who Toronto nominates, because Ken Griffey Jr. (the Seattle version) won this competition before it started. In case his recent injury woes have blurred the memory, check out what he did as a Mariner: 6 seasons with 40 or more homers (and 2 50-plus years), 4 straight 130+ RBI seasons, 7 .300 BA seasons, 10 consecutive .350+ OBP seasons, 10 straight Gold Gloves and one MVP award – all before the age of 30. It’s astounding – and sad – that he will have to fight his way into Cooperstown. Has any superstar player’s career ever gone so badly off the rails in his prime? Nonetheless,

Advantage: Seattle

Right Field
Jesse Barfield vs. Jay Buhner

This is the closest of the matchups. The third member of the Jays’ “Best Outfield in Baseball” from the mid-‘80s on this list, Barfield was by some measures the best defensive rightfielder of the last 50 years, and that includes players like Clemente. He won two Gold Gloves, and in 1984-85 gunned down an incredible 42 runners on the basepaths. He’s best remembered around these parts for his 40-homer season in ’86, but Jesse never collected more than 28 homers in any other season and hit as many as 20 only twice as a Blue Jay. He had several solid .280 batting seasons, and walked enough to post respectable OBPs.

But Buhner was a better player than many Jays fans might remember. He hammered 20 or more homers 7 straight years (including 3 straight 40-homer seasons), and drew enough walks to post a lifetime .350+ OBP. Combine that with a career slugging percentage just shy of .500 and you start to get the picture. Bone took home one Gold Glove, but he actually wasn’t an outstanding right fielder – not in Barfield’s class, at any rate. And Buhner played in an, ahem, power-friendly era. But he still gets the edge.

Advantage: Seattle

Designated Hitter
John Olerud vs. Edgar Martinez

This one hardly seems worth staging. Olerud gets the nod as the best homegrown DH - he debuted as a Jay in the DH slot before Fred McGriff was dealt away – but considering that this competition includes players like Otto Velez, it isn’t much to write home about. And Olerud became a first baseman (and an outstanding one) before long.

Anyway, when you’re up against the best designated hitter of all time in Edgar Martinez, it doesn’t really matter who you bring to the auction. Funny how the M’s, a 28-year-old franchise, have produced four players who can legitimately vie for being among the all-time best at their positions (SS, CF, DH and LHP).

Advantage: Seattle

RH Starter
Dave Stieb vs. Freddy Garcia

Will Roy Halladay eventually become the best homegrown right-hander in Blue Jays history? It's quite possible, but he’s got a long way to go to budge Dave Stieb from that perch. Criminally underrated during his best years with Toronto, Stieb posted 11 seasons with a 110 or greater ERA+, including five seasons above 135. He should have won at least one Cy Young Award, and remains the best pitcher the team ever produced.

Considering all the fine pitchers who’ve worn the Mariner uniform, it's pretty remarkable that Garcia is the best homegrown right-hander of the lot. He had some fine seasons in Seattle after coming over from Houston (ironically enough, in a deal for the next Mariner on this list), but was slowed by injury and ineffectiveness soon after his breakout 18-6, 3.05 2001 campaign. Nolo contendre.

Advantage: Toronto

LH Starter
Jimmy Key vs. Randy Johnson

It’s widely remembered in Toronto that the Blue Jays dropped Dave Winfield and Jack Morris from their 1992 World Series club; it’s less well recalled that they also waved goodbye to the franchise’s best lefthanded pitcher, Jimmy Key, who signed with the Yankees in the off-season. Key was a workhorse (200 innings or more 6 times as a Jay), posted four seasons with an ERA+ of 120 or more, and won 112 games in a starting career that began with the Jays’ first playoff appearance in 1985 and ended with their first World Series title in 1992.

But it’s no slight against Key to say that even had Randy Johnson not been the Mariners’ nominee in this category, Key might still have lost. The Big Unit needs no introduction; he’s is in the same exclusive club as Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn, select candidates for the title of Best Left-Hander Ever. But Seattle also developed a fellow named Mark Langston, who won 75 games and led the league in strikeouts three times before being dealt to the Expos in a blockbuster trade for Gene Harris, Brian Holman and … Randy Johnson. Life’s funny, isn’t it? Anyway,

Advantage: Seattle

Closer
Tom Henke vs. Kazuhiro Sasaki

Back in 1985, the Jays acquired Bill Caudill from Oakland for Dave Collins and Alfredo Griffin, and installed him as the answer to the unsolvable Roy Lee Jackson Problem (aka The Joey McLaughlin Conundrum). Caudill bombed upon his arrival, but the Jays were bailed out by a free-agent compensation pick from Texas named Tom Henke, who ended once and for all those Blue Jays’ paralyzing fear of the ninth inning. Henke saved more than 200 games as a Jay and was one of the game’s top closers before being shamefully released by the organization.

Ironically enough, perhaps the only team that suffered more from a bad bullpen was the mid-90s Mariners, who trotted a series of bad closers out into the ninth inning and watched them blow game after game. Jose Mesa was one low point, but who can forget Heathcliff Slocumb, acquired in a trade with Boston that only cost the Mariners Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe. Just as the Jays looked west to get Caudill, the M’s looked even further west and plucked Sasaki from Japan. Sasaki was a sterling success for most of his MLB career before prematurely heading back home. But even if he had stayed longer, it’s doubtful he could have overcome Henke’s legacy.

Advantage: Toronto

So after 12 rounds, we’re tied 6-6. We need a tiebreaker, and we need to fit in two marvelous players with no position in this contest yet. So here we go with Best Remaining Player:

Best Remaining
Fred McGriff vs. Ichiro Suzuki

This is another tough one. McGriff, who is sufficient reason for Jays fans to be permanently fond of George Steinbrenner, spent only four full seasons in Toronto, but he hammered his first 100 pro homers as a Jay, never reached base at less than a .375 clip and never slugged less than .500. Moreover, he provided the wherewithal (along with Tony Fernandez) to bring Robbie Alomar and Joe Carter to Toronto from San Diego, setting the stage for the Jays’ back-to-back Series wins (not to mention opening a position for John Olerud). He may eventually get into the Hall of Fame, and it’s still possible he might go in as a Jay.

But what a challenge he faces in Ichiro! Another Japanese import, Suzuki had an immediate impact on the Mariners and electrified the league upon his arrival. A four-time All-Star and Gold Glove winner, Ichiro was both Rookie of the Year and MVP in 2001. He’s stolen 30 or more bases every year (56 in his rookie season) and his defence in right field is already the stuff of legends. So it’s an easy choice, right? Well, not entirely: Suzuki has had two stellar seasons (’01 and ‘04) and two merely good ones (.312 and .321 batting averages). He has the edge in speed and defence, McGriff has it in power and patience. How do you decide between them? On this occasion, I don’t:

Advantage: DRAW

So there you have it, Kenny: the final score is 6-6-1. We don’t have time for the Most Painful Eliminations of the Day, so we’ll wrap this up by inviting our readers to chime in: do you agree with the nominees and the winners of each contest? And what kind of lineup would you create from these 13 winners? Here’s mine:

2B Reynolds
DH Martinez
CF Griffey
SS Rodriguez
1B Delgado
LF Bell
RF Buhner
3B Gruber
C Whitt