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In view of the powerful and potent mojo conjured up by the Photo of the Day, we have had Named For Hank looking high and low for a suitable picture of Dave Bush, in order to get today's action off to a good start.

Bush is coming off a superb outing, one of the finest of his young career. He hasn't had a whole lot of luck in his best games. Last time, he allowed just one run but lost to Erik Bedard. And we all remember his brilliant duel with Rich Harden last year, which the Jays bullpen eventually lost in extra innings.

Today he's matched up with Tiger Wang, making his ML debut in Jaret Wright's rotation spot. It's possible, I suppose, that Tanyon Sturtze could end up in the Yankees rotation if Wang doesn't work out.

In case you needed any additional motivation.

Lineups? Do we have lineups?
Game 25: Bush-Wang? | 117 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Dunny - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#114473) #
Pretty standard lineup today for both teams.

Flaherty will play for Posada.
Pistol - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#114477) #
o.	Toronto	                N.Y. Yankees
1	Frank Catalanotto, LF	Derek Jeter, SS
2	Orlando Hudson, 2B	Bernie Williams, CF
3	Vernon Wells, CF	Gary Sheffield, RF
4	Corey Koskie, 3B	Hideki Matsui, LF
5	Shea Hillenbrand, DH	Alex Rodriguez, 3B
6	Eric Hinske, 1B	        Jason Giambi, DH
7	Alex Rios, RF	        Tino Martinez, 1B
8	Gregg Zaun, C	        John Flaherty, C
9	Russ Adams, SS	        Tony Womack, 2B
Rob - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#114478) #
Apparently, it's raining in New York.
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#114479) #
The Yankees don't deserve a rain-out with the poor rotation they've got. I'm sure if Steinbrenner controled the weather too, I'm sure he'd have two rain days a week to make up for the likes of Wright and Brown (and those who replace them).
Pistol - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#114480) #
Yes, rain delay.

Taking a look at the weather map it looks like it'll clear up shortly, so maybe they'll be playing an hour or two.
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#114481) #
I'm also sure I just rolled out of bed and am still groggy ;-)
Dunny - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#114482) #
Tarp is rolled up...

Lets Play Ball!
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#114484) #
Anyone notice the Jeff Blair item in the Globe today that mentioned the Braves had called Wednesday asking about the availability of Rios? I'm comforted by the comments of Gibby: "What you don't want to happen is that you give up on a guy. We're committed to youth, here. You have to stick with the game plan even when guys are scuffling."

I sense that Gibbons might be a useful stalling force against any rash Riccciardi moves.
Fawaz - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#114485) #
gv27 calls a 2:00 start.

Yet another reason to hate the Yankees: The game preview on ESPN.com has a picture of Wang, the guy making his debut, but somehow they can't muster a shot of the guy that laid a beatdown on the Yankees last season.
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#114488) #
It's been seemingly typical of the Jays lately to start ball games a little slowly on the offensive side but I'd really hoped the top of the order could shake Wang a little to give Bush something to work with.
Jim - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#114489) #
I guess it didn't strike Catalonatto to consider backing that play up until after the ball was in the outfield if you see the camera from behind him.
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#114490) #
I don't think Shannon Stewart was as appreciated as he should have been when he was here. We could use a little more of his kind of first-inning threat.
Craig S. - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#114491) #
Uh-oh, this could get ugly early.

Bush needs to put the brakes on this thing, and quickly.
Craig S. - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#114492) #
Nice recovery after a rough start. That could have been much worse.
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#114494) #
You can say that again.
H Winfield Teut - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#114495) #
Come on you had to see this train wreck coming, Jays already had 4 wins in a row, its Yankees at home, and A no name pitcher always beats the Jays. Hate to be a pessimist, but the odds IMO just dont stack well for this game, that said, I hope I am quickly proven wrong.
nicton - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#114496) #
That's a nice job of putting the brakes on.

Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#114497) #
I love coming here for my daily dose of fruitless negativity.
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#114499) #
That's alotta 2's and 0's.
Craig S. - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#114500) #
Long way to go - they're only 2 down in the second inning. If they've proven anything in this young season, it's that they don't give up easily.

It's tough when they're facing a pitcher for the first time, and I think it will be more telling to see what they do the second time through the order.
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#114501) #
it's that they don't give up easily

I think they've also demonstrated that they only really start to figure out a pitcher in their third time through the order.

R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#114502) #
Well the Jays aren't being especially patient with a pitcher no-one has ever seen at the big league level before. The first FOUR hitters of the game swing at the second pitch and make easy outs. Hillenbrand was the only person to see more than three pitches and hit the ball hard.

Bush somehow gave up 2 runs on 3 ground balls (one rocket) but he had to work so much harder against the Yankees. Wang now has 15 pitches through 2 innings while Bush had 21 in the first alone.

I'm really disappointed with Catalanatto and Hudson as 1-2 hitters. I agree with Joe Morgan in this case where the job of the first two hitters in the game is not to swing the bat but to take two strikes and work the pitcher and make him show all of his pitches. Even if you make out you haven't made quick outs and those plate appearances are investments to give the hitters coming up more info to work with. Instead the Jays have been standing in and making outs really quick.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#114503) #
ome on you had to see this train wreck coming

heh.

uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#114504) #
there's been a number of weird plays for the Yanks' offense already.
Gardiner West - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#114505) #
Bush looks really tentative today. Perhaps the Yankee Stadium mojo is messing with his head.
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#114506) #
I wish Bush would concentrate on the hitter. I've seen the third base / first base fake work maybe once in 25 years.

And is it just me, or does Jeter get away with murder in his reactions to inside pitches? The ball is barely off the plate, could easily be called a strike, but Jeter jumps away like it almost hit him in the stomach and gets a ball called every time.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#114507) #
They couldn't record that out on Womack and instead of having a relatively easy inning it costs Bush a lot of extra pitches against Jeter.
Craig S. - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:40 PM EDT (#114508) #
Flex - it's not just you. Jeter does that all the time, moving away from a ball barely inside.

And I agree about the third/first pickoff move. There's a lot more that can go wrong than right with that play.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#114509) #
Yeesh. What is it about Wang that makes the Jays think they have to swing so early in the count? Rios swings at both of the first two pitches. Zaun swings at the second pitch. What is this team doing out there?
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#114510) #
And now Adams swings at the first pitch. That has to the easiest three innings I've ever seen any pitcher throw. Have the Jays even seen 25 pitches from Wang through 3 innings?
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#114511) #
The Jays better get their heads in the game, soon. Looks like they may have enjoyed Friday night in NY a bit too much.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#114512) #
The answer to my own question is they haven't. 22 pitches, 16 for strikes. Averaging 7 pitches per inning. I think the Jays can clearly put the ball in play off this pitcher. They should take two strikes from now and and maybe see if they can rattle this guy if he has to make more than two pitches to a hitter.
Thomas - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#114513) #
I've seen the third base / first base fake work maybe once in 25 years.

I know Pat Hengten got it to work at least twice when he was on the Jays. Either he could sell the throw to third real well or he just got two runners sleeping.

rikley - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#114514) #
Nice quick 3 up 3 down by Bush. Now let's do some damage with the bats
NYJaysFan36 - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#114515) #
Flex,

You're 100% right. All of those pitches aren't just close to being strikes. They ARE strikes. Doc was visibly upset about stuff like this last night.
What's worse is when he stands in the box (after twitching and refastening everything that hasn't loosened) and has the nerve to hold his right hand back toward the ump, assuming that he'll be granted time, regardless of the rules of baseball.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#114516) #
A HR here from verno would really rattle Wang. and the whole Yanks team.
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#114517) #
I've seen the third base / first base fake work maybe once in 25 years.

...And that was in a pee-wee house league game. In four years of high school ball, I don't recall that play working once.

R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#114518) #
I just don't understand. Are the Jays trying to get this game overwith to make a birthday party? Wang hasn't thrown anything by them so why are they afraid to hit with two strikes? Vernon almost grounded into a DP on the first pitch.
Dr. Zarco - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#114519) #
Everyone's being a little hard on the Jays approach. Agreed, it's annoying to watch guys continually get out early in the count, but Wang's throwing nothing but strikes. If they don't swing at the sinking fastball, it's an 0-2 count. At times you have to give the opponent some credit. Let's just hope he starts throwing some first pitch balls. Advantage always goes to the pitcher when he's an unknown.
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#114520) #
Jerry just commented on a good, hard slide by O-Dog. That's something I noticed on just about every potential DP ball hit against the Devil Rays. It's a very promising attribute. The best one, IMO, was when Hillenbrand went right into the second baseman as he was about to be tagged out on the baseline. The result was a FC instead of a GIDP.

Also, I'm listening to the game on the radio. They said that the throw from Womack on the potential GDIP went into the camera bay. Why wasn't an extra base awarded to Wells?
Jim - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#114521) #
Bounced off the screen, didn't bounce over and in.

Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#114522) #
Why did Wells hold up on second base there? A soft hit to right field with two out, he should have been on third. Didn't matter in the end, but it didn't look to me as though he was running hard enough. Seems a lot of Jays are sleepwalking today.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#114523) #
Koskie gets a 2-2 single and then Hillenbrand swings at pitch 2 and ball 2 from Wang to get himself out. This is as poor a hitting performance as I've seen from this team.
Joseph Krengel - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#114524) #
Sheff has a strong arm in RF, the ground is wet (which does slow you down), and the hits are few and far between. You never want to make the third out at third base, and Wells only acted accordingly.
Nolan - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#114525) #
Wow, what a job by Rodriguez to hit that pitch for a homerun. That pitch by Bush was exactly where he wants to put the ball and 90% of the time that ball is hit for an out. If Bush can put the ball there all the time, he should be happy- just a good hit by Rodriguez.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#114526) #
<I>If they don't swing at the sinking fastball, it's an 0-2 count.</i>

Who cares if it's 0-2? He hasn't gotten a single swing and a miss all day. If you can't bat 0-2 against a rookie pitcher you don't belong in the big leagues. Is it better to get yourself out early in the count because you're afraid to hit with 2 strikes?

You're not making the starter work hard, you're saving the Yankees from using their bullpen. If you stay in swing mode all day you're going to do what Hillenbrand did and swing at a pitch over your belt and in on your hands and give away at bat after at bat. We're an hour into this game and the Jays have accomplished nothing offensively. So clearly this "strategy" is not working.
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#114527) #
Agreed on the third-out-at-third concept, but Wells didn't seem to be digging. Let me be the first to say it -- his effort seems to be half-hearted a great deal of the time. Could be the Sundin effect (big man moves effortlessly, looks like he's not trying), but his frequent quick at bats bely that.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#114528) #
You know, I like seeing hitters swing more on an 0-0 count than on a 0-1 count.

I'd guess that 0-1 counts produce many more balls than 0-0 counts do.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#114529) #
Case in point. Rios down 1-2 in the count (and actually the second strike was ball 2 which he fouled off) and ended up working a walk. That's a much better strategy than getting yourself out.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#114530) #
Pat Tabler seems especially inane and annoying today.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#114531) #
Hinske's gonna win a gold glove at 1B someday.
VBF - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#114532) #
his effort seems to be half-hearted a great deal of the time.

Seems, sir. Nay, it is not. I don't know if it's how his body looks in motion when he runs but he doesn't do things hald heartedly at all. They just don't give out Gold Gloves.

Gardiner West - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#114533) #
Like Rios doubling his career home run total, how are we so sure that Wells will ever regain his '03 form?
A - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#114534) #
Hinske's gonna win a gold glove at 1B someday.

What day are they announced for the 2005 season? :-)

Dr. Zarco - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#114535) #
What was Womack doing so far up the middle against Rios right there? He hits everything the other way, you'd think the scouting report would be play at least a straight up 2nd base. I was sure that was gonna be a game-tying basehit.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#114536) #
This is a big inning for Bush here vs. the heart of the Yanks' order.

If he can mow'em down, he might be able to go 7. But if he gets into any trouble, this might be his last inning....and it might be tough for the jays to win this one.
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:38 PM EDT (#114537) #
I won't take anything away from Wells for his defensive effort. But I'm often perplexed by his offensive approach.

As perplexed as Bernie seemed to be at Koskie not trying to take third on that fly ball.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#114538) #
Phillips just killed any chances of Bush going 7 in one at at bat.
BrockLanders - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#114539) #
The jays need to get this kid a win. Hes pitched much better than his record has indicated.
Terran - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#114540) #
Nice bunt...
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#114541) #
Yeah, I was just about to say how empty Adams' at-bats had been, then he pulls a smarty on me.
Terran - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#114543) #
By the way, Wang has had no strike outs and has only threw 73 pitches. He's walked two...so do you think the Jays need to be more patient against this guy? I just tuned in when Adams hit the bunt so I honestly don't know...
Cristian - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#114544) #
Do you think Wang's name is really pronounced 'Wong' or does gv27 just not want to acknowledge the obvious Bush-Wang joke?
Terran - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#114545) #
Sorry for double-posting by accident. It's raining now, I hope the game doesn't get called early.
Magpie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#114546) #
Who cares if they're hitting 0-2?

Everybody. The game revolves around control of the strike zone. But it's frustrating to watch, of course. Wang's pitches look hittable, so guys are swinging rather than fall behind.

Here's why they don't much want to fall behind. Today's lineup, hitting after the count goes to 0-2:

	       AB   R   H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  HBP  SO AVG   OBP   SLG   OPS

Catalanotto   179   0   34   5   1   1   11   7   6   56 .190  .242  .246 .488
Hudson        198   0   35   6   1   3   15  15   2   87 .177  .242  .263  .505
Wells         292   0   60  11   1   4   32   6   0   99 .205  .219  .291  .510
Koskie        248   0   43   8   1   2   17  14   4  124 .173  .227  .238  .465
Hillenbrand   172   0   36   5   0   1   16   0   3   65 .209  .220  .256  .476
Hinske        286   0   47  10   1   9   30   8   0  130 .164  .186  .301  .487
Rios           81   0   17   3   0   0    6   4   0   33 .210  .247  .247  .494
Zaun          101   0   20   4   0   5   17   4   1   38 .198  .236  .386  .622
Adams          13   0    7   1   1   1    3   0   0    1 .538  .538 1.000 1.538
That's pretty ugly. Except for Adams, of course!
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#114547) #
Solid work by Bush there. I wasn't sure if he'd come out for the 7th.

Rough (and unlucky) 1st couple of innings, but he really pitched well the rest of the way. Even that ARod HR was off a very good pitch.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#114548) #
Well Bush has done everything he can. If the Jays fall short it's because they completely wasted the first 4 innings of the game offensively.
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#114549) #
All credit to Bush. Seven innings and three runs. He's done a nice job staying in the game.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#114550) #
The Jays need better hitters then.
Stellers Jay - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#114551) #
"If the Jays fall short it's because they completely wasted the first 4 innings of the game offensively."

I'd have to disagree. The blame falls squarely on the shoulders of NFH, who has failed in his quest to provide Dave Bush with picture of the day MOJO. :)
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#114552) #
awesome.
Ryan C - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#114553) #
HR for the Canucklehead!
Gerry - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#114554) #
R Billie subscribes to the Mike Barnett hitting philosophy, work the pitcher and get into the bullpen.

But the hitting coach now is Mickey Brantley who preaches look for your pitch and hit it. The Jays might be hitting early but they are getting their pitches. I think they were somewhat unlucky today. Oh and I would not be picking up Wang for my team, he better enjoy this one, its downhill from here.

R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#114555) #
For instance, better hitters like Cory Koskie.
Terran - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#114556) #
It's tied now ^_^
BrockLanders - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#114557) #
Yes!! Flash-in-the pan serves one to the native son.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#114558) #
great shot of that dude picking his nose and EATING IT!

ach. we need censors.
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#114559) #
Magpie, my point wasn't that it's better to hit with 2 strikes. My point was Wang doesn't have overpowering stuff and if you're more patient with him early on you at least see more pitches from him and maybe the Jays chase him from the game by the 5th or 6th inning instead of the 7th.
Dr. Zarco - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#114560) #
That's just a terrific AB by Hillenbrand. Fought off a bunch of real tough Gordon pitches to get a solid two-bagger. Get the poor-luck Bush in line for a win here!
Stellers Jay - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#114561) #
Saw the same thing. That was disgusting.
BrockLanders - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:13 PM EDT (#114562) #
The Dude picked a winner. Thats awesome!
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#114563) #
Hey, come on. Maybe that's where he stores his lunch.
BrockLanders - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#114565) #
Pulled this off a clueless yankee fan post. I think they are teetering on the edge of insanity:

"Three runs off an awful pitcher who hadn't pitched one solid game this season."

To my knowledge Bush pitched well in every start with the exception of the debacle in Fenway.
Magpie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#114566) #
My point was Wang doesn't have overpowering stuff

Agreed - it's just that he kept throwing strikes (54 out of 81, which is great) - and he looked hittable. So you take a hack, and ground out. It worked for Grover Cleveland Alexander, it still works today.

Another dandy game, isn't it?

BrockLanders - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#114567) #
I hope the 'pen can counter Rivera for an inning or two. Then its anybody's game.
Terran - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#114568) #
Assuming we get out of the bottom 9th, I think this will be the first extra inning game we've played this season...
Ryan C - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#114569) #
Just dont walk in the winning run please.
Dr. Zarco - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#114570) #
Well Chulk, that's what ya get for walking the leadoff man.
Craig S. - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#114571) #
Tough loss after a nice comeback.

I'm surprised they left the righty Chulk in there to face Womack, and didn't bring SS in from the bullpen.
H Winfield Teut - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#114572) #
It always seems guys that have not pitched much usually come out with decent games against the Jays, kudos for Bush recovering nicely, fought hard, and nice to see against the Yankees. No loss is ever good, but a hard fought game is always good.
Dunny - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#114573) #
How many first pitch balls was Chulk planning on throwing?

That was an ugly outing by Vinnie

Bit of a choke job really
R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#114574) #
Well Vinnie didn't have much command today. That's not a good situation against the Yankees.

What I don't understand about the move to bring Chulk in (and this has nothing to do with him giving up the winning run) is that Frasor had just thrown a 1-2-3 inning on 12 pitches. It's still a tie game and you don't know how many more innings this game might go. Why do you go to a new pitcher now?

Best case scenario the new pitcher has a routine inning but you're still down another pitcher in a tie game. Worst case scenario is what we just saw where the new pitcher comes in and just can't get the job done. Changing pitchers there seemed to have a very low upside.

It might have been easier to swallow if you were changing pitchers to Batista since he's your ace reliever but changing to another young guy didn't make much sense to me.
Ryan C - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#114575) #
Another close game. Chulk never really looked comfortable out there from what I could see. He didnt seem to be getting many pitches near the strikezone today.
H Winfield Teut - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#114576) #
SS hasn't exactly been lights out vs lefties, and I think I heard Chulk was actually doing better vs lefties, at any rate....the motto has always been, theres always tomorrow.
Sherrystar - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#114577) #
Another close game and another close loss. Never understood why it matters. A loss is a loss.

And when will Gibbons wake up and either bench Wells or move him down in the order? He is embarassing at the plate!
Rob - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#114579) #
I'm not worried about this loss at all. Chulk didn't have it today? Well, he's not going to have the right stuff every game. Pitching with the bases loaded (granted, two of those runners were his responsibility) in the bottom of the ninth in Yankee Stadium isn't easy to do.

Bush settled down nicely to through six non-A-Rod-scoreless innings. In fact, he probably didn't have to settle down too much, knowing him.

I was annoyed at the approach against Wang, though. It's his ML debut, the Jays could take a few pitches. I kept saying "this is the inning where Toronto gets a few" because the Jays never missed at a pitch or struck out and I figured Wang's luck would run out soon. In fact, looking at the ESPN game log, I don't think Wang recorded a swinging strike. That's not a good approach against anyone, least of all a rookie.
Dunny - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#114580) #
Yeah really, I know Wells is slow starter but this is becoming rediculous.

Dare I say, he startin to look like Mike Cameron...


noooooo :)
BrockLanders - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#114581) #
The Yankee announcers were pointing out that Vernon has almost a non-existent weight transfer in his swing at this junction.
Ryan C - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#114582) #
I have no problem with Chulk, I like Chulk and I think he's a fine pitcher. But I would have either left Frasor in (who I think is better and had a quick easy 8th) or gone to my closer. It's a tie game in the bottom of the ninth, if you're going to take out Frasor in the first place why wouldnt you replace him with your best reliever?
Flex - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#114583) #
Even when Delgado was going through his dry spells, you never got the sense he was sleeping through his at-bats. Too often Wells looks disinterested. And you can count on him making some reference to always being a slow starter and wait until May. Why? Why should we have to wait?
Rob - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#114584) #
if you're going to take out Frasor in the first place why wouldnt you replace him with your best reliever?

That raises an interesting question -- is Miguel Batista the best reliever on this team? I can't answer that off the top of my head, though my initial reaction is no.

R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#114585) #
Well I'm tired of hearing people say Wells is a slow starter. He's started slow because he hasn't had a good approach all year and it's in no-one's power but his own to get himself focused and righted. When he was going in his good year he was using the whole field.

Hit singles to centerfield and right field. Start small. You have to hit small before you can hit big. Once pitchers know you're heating up they'll be more careful, have to throw more pitches, and make more mistakes. Right now he's using a bad approach, getting no results, pressing and continuing to use a bad approach, getting no results and pressing even more.

A week ago it looked like he was coming out of it but now he's back to hitting like he was the first two weeks of the year.
Ryan C - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#114586) #
is Miguel Batista the best reliever on this team?

Well it's certainly debateable, but IMHO yes he is. Better than Chulk anyway. I can see a case being made for Frasor perhaps.

R Billie - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#114588) #
Maybe there is a mechancial flaw in his weight transfer like the Yankee announcers were saying. If there is that's something a major league hitting coach should fix in spring training or over the course of one or two days during the regular season. Vernon isn't a rookie anymore. He has to be able to make these adjustments between at bats, let alone between games.
Sherrystar - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#114589) #
Maybe Wells needs to stop continually swinging at the 1st pitch and be more patient. Also, I've haven't noticed many opposite filed hits as he's always trying to pull everything (i.e the anti-Rios!)

His average is getting ridiculous! It's frustrating watching him in the 3rd spot knowing an out is coming!
Thomas - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#114591) #
To answer the above query, Wang's name really is pronounced "Wong."

Am I off-base in thinking that Hudson could have dove for the single by Tino? I know it's a very difficult play as he had to run and the grass was wet, so the ball was moving fast. However, it still seemed to me like if he's just a step away from the ball that he could have slid or dove and kept the ball in front of him.

I don't think he would have got Tino at first and I know normally it doesn't make a difference. However, in that scenario preventing Phillips from going to third with one out would have been big. Although it didn't come into play in today's game, preventing the potential winning run from taking third removes the possibility of him scoring on a sac fly, a wild pitch or a slow grounder where they cannot turn the double play. They probably have a legitimate shot to throw out the runner on a single hit sharply to Rios and so on.
Jim - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#114593) #
These were my feelings at the time.

A. Don't remove Frasor for Chulk.
B. Don't walk Posada, he's been terrible and gives you a shot at a DP - plus Chulk wasn't really throwing strikes
C. Once you got to Womack why are you paying SS millions if you aren't going to use him in this spot?

Ken Singleton on YES said that he felt that there is a huge stigma to being the first strikeout victim for a major league pitcher and that was part of the reason that they were so impatient at the plate. He said that about 200 times actually.

uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#114596) #
Easy to second guess this one, like all bullpen losses are.

Frasor pitched well, but he's rarely ever been used for more than one inning. I think Gibber was pleased that he got that nice quick inning from Frasor (he hasn't exactly been lights out), and didn't want to push his luck, especially with ARod coming up.

Vinnie has simply been our best reliever so far this year, so he was the next guy to go in.

Miggy was never going to go in until the jays grabbed a lead...whether that was in the 9th, or in extra innings. After all, he's the closer.
Leigh - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#114599) #
is Miguel Batista the best reliever on this team?

I think Justin Speier is.

I think Speier is one of at least a half-dozen or so relief pitchers who are the best on their respective teams, but are not the "closers"; R. Betancourt (Cle), K. Calero (Oak), L. Ayala (Was), M. Gonzalez (Pit) certainlty come to mind. Possibly J. Walker (Det), R. Bottalico (Mil) and C. Reitsma (Atl) as well.

King Ryan - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 09:08 PM EDT (#114601) #
Miggy was never going to go in until the jays grabbed a lead...whether that was in the 9th, or in extra innings. After all, he's the closer.

I don't even understand this logic. Gibbons has brought Batista into a tie game before, and he will again. If he believes Miggy is the team's best reliever, then there's no reason not to. I won't make any other comments because I missed the game, but managers that only bring in their closers when it's a "save opportunity" are among the worst managers in the league.

uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#114602) #
by that logic, you should bring the "best" reliever in right after the starter goes out, no matter what.
King Ryan - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#114604) #
If it's the ninth inning and a tie game, then, uh, yeah.

Anytime when the game is "on the line," I would want my best reliever in there. No question.
King Ryan - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#114605) #
Er, unless the starter is still pitching, obviously.
uglyone - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#114606) #
the game was on the line in the 8th.

the game would have been again on the line in the 10th.

Was Torre foolish for not bringing in his "best reliever" Rivera in the 8th, when Gordon coughed up the lead?
Ryan C - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#114607) #
the game would have been again on the line in the 10th.

You have to make it to the 10th first. And by then the Jays also would have had another chance to bat so who knows what the score would have been.

King Ryan - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 10:04 PM EDT (#114608) #
Obviously you have to keep the pitcher's stamina in mind, but if Batista is capable of pitching 2 innings and still be available for tomorrow's game, I would definitely bring him into the 8th. Unless you have another high-quality pitcher like Gordon, where that isn't necessary. I think Frasor is good enough that it's okay to let him pitch the 8th, but not bringing in Batista for the ninth is a mistake in my opinion.

Or in most cases it would be. I didn't see todays game.

If you're basing your strategy on "IS IT A 'SAVE' SITUATION??!?!?!" Then you're basing your strategy on a player's personal statistics, which is never a good thing.
King Ryan - Saturday, April 30 2005 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#114609) #
And by the way, the game wasn't "on the line in the 8th." You can't lose a game in the 8th. Even if Shea Hillenbrand pitches and gives up 19 runs, the game isn't over.
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